Thread: So if wardens are getting a secondery role when do burgs get one?

And CC does not count. Anyone who says CC is a role should be carted off and locked away.

Our sole role right now is suport single target DPS. At one time My cj's and mittigastion allowed me to fill in as a tank or crude healer in 3 mans even some 6 mans. Now I just dont know anymore. in 6 mans like foundry on my burg I just stand there with my mouth gaping open as everything is dead before i get through my crit chain once. I play no role on the trash if i was on auto follow no one would even notice.

What can be done?

Bring CJ's back up to SOA level, give us some AOE and real heals/power return with CJ's again. Seems like a lot of other things have reverted back to SOA why not cj's? Improve our servivability skills, lower some cool downs(ready and able, escape clasuse, add a legacy for knives out and make it mitigate all incoming damage)? Give us some crititcal and dev crit defence. Add a skill like find footing for when we are rooted.



Why are some suport classes jack of all like burgs becoming more pigeon holed than the tanks and healers are? Even My LM with 2 blue traits can main heal and bring AOE devistation like no other.

May I direct your attention here: http://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Class

Burglar
Primary Roles: Single Target Melee dps, Debuffer
Secondary Role: Crowd Control (incl. CJs)

Is this topic a joke?

DPS, CC, Debuff, CJ... what other role do you want? LOL

Burg can help a lot the fellowship.

If you're brainless you can still dps a lot the RAT.

If you're not stupid you can also debuff your target.

If you're a decent player you can CC something.

If you're a good player you can DPS, debuff, CC and openconjunction and maybe you can do many little think that could be usefull.

If you're ASKANA you can do anything. ^^

Originally Posted by ifreborn1

in 6 mans like foundry on my burg I just stand there with my mouth gaping open as everything is dead before i get through my crit chain once. I play no role on the trash if i was on auto follow no one would even notice.

If you can't hit more than six buttons during a fight, then no one else in your group can either. Your healer is saying, "Healers are weak, because I never had to hit a green skill." Your captain is saying, "I remember when people needed in-combat rezes. Now that's worthless." Your loremaster is saying, "What's the point of power-transfer skills if no one ever uses any power?"

In this specific case, the problem isn't that the burg is weak. It's that your entire group is made up of experienced, fully-geared players who have done that content many times.

What can be done?

Run the instance finder and try to lead a PUG. The less experienced players will appreciate your insights, and you'll be able to see how important a burg is to a weaker group.

Bring CJ's back up to SOA level, give us some AOE and real heals/power return with CJ's again. Seems like a lot of other things have reverted back to SOA why not cj's? Improve our servivability skills, lower some cool downs(ready and able, escape clasuse, add a legacy for knives out and make it mitigate all incoming damage)? Give us some crititcal and dev crit defence. Add a skill like find footing for when we are rooted.

The content is too easy, so the solution is to make the characters MORE powerful? It sounds to me like the solution is to try another class until there's new content or to run PvMP for a while.

If you're not having fun, please just try something else for a while.

Thanks!

Lol.

Gotta give you credit, ifreborn. As delusional as I think you are, there's just no stopping you. You're like honeybadger on acid.

Originally Posted by MaxSydney

If you can't hit more than six buttons during a fight, then no one else in your group can either. Your healer is saying, "Healers are weak, because I never had to hit a green skill." Your captain is saying, "I remember when people needed in-combat rezes. Now that's worthless." Your loremaster is saying, "What's the point of power-transfer skills if no one ever uses any power?"

In this specific case, the problem isn't that the burg is weak. It's that your entire group is made up of experienced, fully-geared players who have done that content many times.



Run the instance finder and try to lead a PUG. The less experienced players will appreciate your insights, and you'll be able to see how important a burg is to a weaker group.



The content is too easy, so the solution is to make the characters MORE powerful? It sounds to me like the solution is to try another class until there's new content or to run PvMP for a while.

If you're not having fun, please just try something else for a while.

Thanks!

What i took from this is get on the short bus and just accept the fact you are short. Some one has to be the short class and it is you kid, sorry. MAybe if you play with short people on your short class you can be of some use maybe lead the team.

Originally Posted by ifreborn1

And CC does not count. Anyone who says CC is a role should be carted off and locked away.

The answer to your question is CC, and debuffs.

For validation of this answer, see The Tower of Orthanc raid content. And, hopefully, this trend continues.

Originally Posted by MaxSydney

If you can't hit more than six buttons during a fight, then no one else in your group can either. Your healer is saying, "Healers are weak, because I never had to hit a green skill." Your captain is saying, "I remember when people needed in-combat rezes. Now that's worthless." Your loremaster is saying, "What's the point of power-transfer skills if no one ever uses any power?"

In this specific case, the problem isn't that the burg is weak. It's that your entire group is made up of experienced, fully-geared players who have done that content many times.



Run the instance finder and try to lead a PUG. The less experienced players will appreciate your insights, and you'll be able to see how important a burg is to a weaker group.



The content is too easy, so the solution is to make the characters MORE powerful? It sounds to me like the solution is to try another class until there's new content or to run PvMP for a while.

If you're not having fun, please just try something else for a while.

Thanks!

Great answer + Rep!!
Pugs always need help. How do we get to learn otherwise
LFF must have experience .... DOH!

Oh look, another Ifreborn thread. If you stop feeding the troll, hopefully it'll go away.

Originally Posted by Aw_De_Oh

Oh look, another Ifreborn thread. If you stop feeding the troll, hopefully it'll go away.

'Quiet now you filthy troll, your escapades are at an end.'
No, huva will catch it and burgs are too weak to take him down, even when a kinnie main tanked it.

OP forgot to buy riddle

Anyway foundry T2 could be done with 5 player (did) or 4 (not try yet, but surely doable).

So don't take that istance as a benchmark.

Try to complete The Pit T2 in follow and let me know.... ^^

I've practiced ignoring for over a year now, sadly not enough other people ignore as well, and take the bait.

Since we've already encouraged this thread, here's what I did tonight.

I off-tanked SS T2 challenge.

Here's what else I did tonight.

I off-healed Drag-Unleashed T2 challenge.

I main healed part of Foundry T2 challenge's final fight while being both primary DPS and support.

In Fangorn Edge, T2, I typically am main tank, but nobody heals, as only DPS is needed save for the one fight. I have minis go in Warspeech.

Although the OP rudely ignores CC, it is key in Foundry and Orthanc. In fact, a stereotypical healing class in the first part of Foundry complained there was nothing to do, as we took no damage from the mezzed and stunned MOBs, and I was continuously providing HoTs.

We already have a secondary role, a tertiary role, and can even be primary tanks and heal on par with Captains and heal traited Lore-masters.

All without retraiting, like other classes have to.

So, to recap: 1, DPS; 2, Support; 3, CC; 4, Tank; 5, Healer

Someone needs to stop complaining and insulting folks who might respond differently from a biased viewpoint, and actually learn how to apply the class to do all these fun things. If one is incapable of doing so, please don't complain the class can't do it when others do every day, but get off the offensive bus and learn to do it yourself.

Sadly, until a dev comes and gives a certain poster a secondary role of playing the game, I'm afraid we'll only ever see the one dimension of preposterous forum threads.



"Sometimes survival comes down to not being hit. Actually, most times." -the chicken skill, Bob and Weave

Originally Posted by ifreborn1

What i took from this is...

You read it wrong.

As for burg you're doing it wrong.

Originally Posted by harman097

Lol.

Gotta give you credit, ifreborn. As delusional as I think you are, there's just no stopping you. You're like honeybadger on acid.

ROFL! That is awesome! And true!

I think the majority of you are getting lost in the chest pumping. Lbr, if you think you're a good player with the current incarnation of the Burg, then you should probably just lol and go play a Champ and Minstrel and think you're uber.

However, those that have played the Burg from early SoA and forward, without a doubt, have seen the Burg get lost. If you haven't, then you probably didn't take the time and effort to really understand the pros/cons, class mechanics, and class structure of the Burglar in its entirety.

Danger Dan, methodically, took the Burglar down a totally unique path from the other classes. It was this path that brought true Burglars to the class. However, despite class parity, the Burglar seems to be lost in the shuffle and I would venture to guess that the reason we are 2nd/3rd tier in most respects is because the current Devs don't know what to do with the class moving forward OR they lack the innovation that Danger Dan possessed.

I often wonder what game he has moved onto, as I would love to check out his other work.

To add, this isn't about Ifreborn needing to L2P. It's more about you guys needing to L2understand.

Stop me if Im forgetting something:
- 1.4-1.5k singel-target DPS
- The strongest debuff in the game (disable)
- The strongest DPS debuff in the game (reveal weakness, it stacks)
- Perma-CC a target if in mischeif (if needed, the downsides aint bad)
- The only class that can controll when he wants CJs
- The strongest aggro-wipe in the game (HiPS, and even on a fairly short CD)
- Among the strongest survival skills for short duration battles

Now, I agree that the blue line could use some love, but burgs are a very strong class neitherless atm. I also wonder what burgs were like back in SoA (didnt lvl one before Moria), cause if you say they are weak now, they were extremely OP at that time.

Enough meat for the troll?

Originally Posted by BrittainTheCommie

However, those that have played the Burg from early SoA and forward, without a doubt, have seen the Burg get lost. If you haven't, then you probably didn't take the time and effort to really understand the pros/cons, class mechanics, and class structure of the Burglar in its entirety.

So... If I've played the burglar as my main from SoA up till today and I still like the class then I'm all kinds of horrible? My point is I have played the class extensively, I understand the mechanics and how it works with other classes and I do not share yours and especially not ifreborn's views on the class. And no I have not seen the 'Burg get lost' either. There has been some lack of development with the burg, compared to some of the other classes, yes, but at least my burglar has always been wanted and welcomed in any group throughout Middle Earth...
You make it sound like there's only 1 acceptable point of view - yours.

I'm not saying there's not room for improvement - ofc there is and some of the traits and traitlines do need updating and all - but what we have now is a very solid class, with good dps, unique debuffs and cc, interrupts and FM's.
I'm still having fun...

Originally Posted by BrittainTheCommie

Danger Dan, methodically, took the Burglar down a totally unique path from the other classes. It was this path that brought true Burglars to the class. However, despite class parity, the Burglar seems to be lost in the shuffle and I would venture to guess that the reason we are 2nd/3rd tier in most respects is because the current Devs don't know what to do with the class moving forward OR they lack the innovation that Danger Dan possessed.

Guess I'm not a 'true Burglar' then as I don't share your views here either.
Crazy thought, just throwing this one out there: what if the burglar was actually not 'meant' to be the best at any single thing but rather be strong in different areas, and the devs actually know what they're doing?
5 years of development of an MMO - how long do you think the great ideas are gonna stay 'unique'? Stances have been added to most classes, additional cc, buffs and debuffs are being shared by different classes - all balancing the classes pretty well against each other.

When you say unique do you mean something outrageously strong and OP compared to all other classes both freep and creep? Cause that's the vibe I keep getting from ifreborn...

Originally Posted by BrittainTheCommie

To add, this isn't about Ifreborn needing to L2P. It's more about you guys needing to L2understand.

It is very much about him needing to L2P. He has made the same outrageous claims for years now, painting a picture of a class that is broken, unwanted and utterly useless.
When the people responding to his nonsense provide sound arguments and facts about the class and the balance with the other classes he responds with some irrelevant pics, gifs or vids. And one week later you know he'll start all over again with the same nonsense, onlywith a slightly different angle.

If he cannot perform well enough to hold his own in raids as a burglar he needs to L2P. The tools are there, the burglar is still strong and well-balanced.

He has had some interesting ideas and suggestions when it comes to potential improvements to the class, I'll give him that - but he keeps presenting it in such an crazy way that it would distort the balance of all the classes in the game.

Even if the class was as broken as he claims he isn't doing the class any favors by his rude style that only helps to scare people away.

/rant off

Originally Posted by Solyaris

Stop me if Im forgetting something:
- 1.4-1.5k singel-target DPS
- The strongest debuff in the game (disable)
- The strongest DPS debuff in the game (reveal weakness, it stacks)
- Perma-CC a target if in mischeif (if needed, the downsides aint bad)
- The only class that can controll when he wants CJs
- The strongest aggro-wipe in the game (HiPS, and even on a fairly short CD)
- Among the strongest survival skills for short duration battles

Now, I agree that the blue line could use some love, but burgs are a very strong class neitherless atm. I also wonder what burgs were like back in SoA (didnt lvl one before Moria), cause if you say they are weak now, they were extremely OP at that time.

Enough meat for the troll?

- 1.4-1.5k single-target DPS

in a group environment with a captain. other classes have 20-30% more


- The strongest debuff in the game (disable)

You are joking right? with the way they changed the system +physical offense disables -20% traited is not -20% vs boss mobs plus its all tactical now this skill is a legacy skill that should not even be used. See all ends is the most powerful debuff in the game.


- The strongest DPS debuff in the game (reveal weakness, it stacks)

Oath breakers? snd do you know how it stacks? Captains provide way more damage with war cry than RW ever will.


- Perma-CC a target if in mischief (if needed, the downsides ain't bad)

So can Hunters Lm's and arnt you better off with another tank than CC in isen? just saying only place you need CC is ToO t2. there are more CC classes than tank or healer classes yet we have never seen a 3 man that needs CC over tank or heals. Get off the CC BS it was taken out of the game as an effective meaning some time in moria.


- The only class that can control when he wants CJs
Hmm Guards cant pick the exact time and place but they are better at popping cj's than burgs. You can run a dragon without any burgs and never miss a cj try it some time. There was a time in SOA that CJ's were all that, they are not all that any more and everyone can pop them.


- The strongest aggro-wipe in the game (HiPS, and even on a fairly short CD)
Appears to be working again. I claimed it wasn't in a past post. Hobbit silence also works and minis fain.


- Among the strongest survival skills for short duration battles

Finesse kinda killed that for us. Just saying T&G is fail in the moors if there are ranked, creeps god mode if not. 2 ranked BA's will kill you through T&G before you even relize what is going on.


There was a time when burgs wanted improvements for the class. I don't know the type of person this class attracts any more but. You guys are gone. When our stealth was so slow we could not catch anything in the moors you knuckle heads cried that they were fixing it. Using mindless logic. When they added a auto crit to Suprise strike from stealth you guys cried and got it nurfed before it even made it to the game. Now we are left with a SS that hits weaker than it should from stealth or a shill that should Auto crit with FA. If the skill was kept as intended by the developers maybe the class would be closer to doing 10% less damage than the DPS classes instead of 20-30%.

I just have a distance for most of the people who post here now. I miss the good old days were people wanted the class amongst the strongest you guys seem to want and cry to be be on the short bus.

Enjoy

Originally Posted by BrittainTheCommie

...his ranting scares people away. Sigh...

Yes it does. When people interested in rolling a burglar goes to the class forums and sees that half of all the threads are whiny moans by one guy who insists that the class is completely and utterly useless do you not think that scares people away?

Anyway, I can't really agree with you on any of your points so lets leave it at that.
At least I hope you've moved on to some other class since this one frustrates you so much.
Meanwhile I'll be having fun playing this one tyvm.

Originally Posted by ifreborn1

- 1.4-1.5k single-target DPS

- The only class that can control when he wants CJs
Hmm Guards cant pick the exact time and place but they are better at popping cj's than burgs. You can run a dragon without any burgs and never miss a cj try it some time. There was a time in SOA that CJ's were all that, they are not all that any more and everyone can pop them.

not to troll the troll, but if you actually think this, then you need to get on your own shortbus ifre. burgs have 3 ways we can start FM's, all instantly cast, marbles(item) trip(stealth skill) and exploit opening(skill).

/provoke from stealth

As fun as it is, I still think the Gambler line could use a little help ..

/HiPS

True, people who look at the burg forums to judge burgs see a certain someone's posts and don't know to ignore him. They presume his complaints means there's a reason to avoid trying burgs.

However, I'm in one of the (now) larger kins on my server, but I had the highest level burg when I joined, and guess what happened? People saw what burgs could do and... Someone with a guard made a burg. A LM made a burg. An RK made a burg. What's more, unlike other alts people make and just craft with at low levels, these folks now have 75 level burgs and are gearing them up.

There is a big difference from offering useful, reasonable areas of improvement for a class, to simply ranting that the class is broken, when most plainly see it is not...or making wild assertions that perfectly functioning skills are inadequate, or comparing apples to oranges.

Worse is the offensive turn the responses take.



"Sometimes survival comes down to not being hit. Actually, most times." -the chicken skill, Bob and Weave

Originally Posted by RJFerret

There is a big difference from offering useful, reasonable areas of improvement for a class, to simply ranting that the class is broken, when most plainly see it is not...or making wild assertions that perfectly functioning skills are inadequate, or comparing apples to oranges.

Worse is the offensive turn the responses take.



"Sometimes survival comes down to not being hit. Actually, most times." -the chicken skill, Bob and Weave

from what I see the people who say the class is broken when it really isnt (in some cases burgs are OP) those specific people don't know what the burglar actually does (even if they are 75's), from what I can tell the burg can burst DPS, off tank (for a short time), and CC im not really sure what else they do besides that considering mine is only level 32, also the people who say a burglar is broken should try leveling a warden... get it to 75 and go tank a draigoch (i havn't gotton to 75 yet so hush) and then try not complaining when they get hit for a 7k+ when your guardian friend gets hit for a 3-5k...

Originally Posted by Barney1119

from what I see the people who say the class is broken when it really isnt (in some cases burgs are OP) those specific people don't know what the burglar actually does (even if they are 75's), from what I can tell the burg can burst DPS, off tank (for a short time), and CC im not really sure what else they do besides that considering mine is only level 32, also the people who say a burglar is broken should try leveling a warden... get it to 75 and go tank a draigoch (i havn't gotton to 75 yet so hush) and then try not complaining when they get hit for a 7k+ when your guardian friend gets hit for a 3-5k...

Burgs do not have burst DPS. I dont know where this myth came from. They have constant Medium to high DPS. Our max hit is 1/3 to 1/2 what other classes max hit is. You would be shocked @ how much DPS come from auto attack on a burg.

PS I would take a good warden over a good guard still on most content.

Originally Posted by ifreborn1

Burgs do not have burst DPS. I dont know where this myth came from. They have constant Medium to high DPS. Our max hit is 1/3 to 1/2 what other classes max hit is. You would be shocked @ how much DPS come from auto attack on a burg.

PS I would take a good warden over a good guard still on most content.

Strange statements you make here:
Hunters have high burst damage... Indeed, one of the great strengths of a hunter
Champs have ok burst damage - With luck its even Good
Who else does great burst damage? Guards? *Snort*
Nope, #3 on the burst damage list is burgs, though an RK does more over time.

You also fail to understand why a burg is considered to have top dps in group content... because its NOT all about YOUR pretty yellow numbers. Revealing mark is a full raid buff... So your doing Draigoch, or Orthanc (I will say Draigoch because ANY burg can get a slot usually) You decide to get lazy (...) and dont use a SINGLE skill on the claws but revealing mark... You are now doing 80-100% of the DPS of a hunter or champ in the group. Solo you dont match hunter/champ DPS, but you EXCEED it in a raid.

You would prefer wardens for "most content"... You dont play a healer!
Oh yes, I could say the same thing with a straight face... if it was a 75 warden doing <lvl 60 content ("most content")
After all... I have hunter-tanked a good bit (half) of the turtle raid at 75... That bleed is a whole lot less important when the whole fight only takes 2 minutes!

Synergy: Working together to provide a whole greater then the sum of its parts.
That's the role of a burg!
Perhaps hunter is more your style?

Originally Posted by ifreborn1

Burgs do not have burst DPS. I dont know where this myth came from. They have constant Medium to high DPS. Our max hit is 1/3 to 1/2 what other classes max hit is. You would be shocked @ how much DPS come from auto attack on a burg.

PS I would take a good warden over a good guard still on most content.

there is a large difference between sustained DPS and burst DPS, sustained DPS classes such as RK's and Champs can hold a relativly decant DPS stance in a group for as long as the fight is going, burst DPSing can be done by all classes when using all thier hard hitting skills as fast as possible but then lack the DPS near the end of the fight a good example is the burg's crit chain and bleeds, the LM's cooldowns such as lightning storm, improved stickey gord and ents go to war, once those are up what do you have to turn to? 3 or 4 skills at least?

Well if burg DPS is burst what would you call a LM doing 20k-30k damage on a target with 3 skills in 3 second close to 100k aoe in the same time? thats burst your little 10 is nothing in isen. Wake up guys.

Saruman t2 will be the test and I feel the breaking point for the burg in isen. If it pans out that burgs are low DPS for that fight the class is tost. The levee will break and the little false praise the dragon brought you will be gone. +10% damage which is less with stacked marks in reality does not = the 20-30% the DPS classes do more than you. 1 burg in a raid will be the new motto never more maybe less.

Originally Posted by Barney1119

there is a large difference between sustained DPS and burst DPS, sustained DPS classes such as RK's and Champs can hold a relativly decant DPS stance in a group for as long as the fight is going, burst DPSing can be done by all classes when using all thier hard hitting skills as fast as possible but then lack the DPS near the end of the fight a good example is the burg's crit chain and bleeds, the LM's cooldowns such as lightning storm, improved stickey gord and ents go to war, once those are up what do you have to turn to? 3 or 4 skills at least?

play a LM and find out. BE stacks 3 times with wizzards fire and ticks close to 450-500 damage a second on averag ad your pets damage and DoT from sticky goard and you are doing half waht a burg does just standing there. Staf sweep every 15 sec with Sticky goard and cracked earth all aoe all hit for 3-4k on each target. Staff strike every 5 seconds is almost eqivelent to SS from stealth better when you consider the cool down. To be honest I dont realy use ents or lightning storm in foundry It gets me killed I just generare way to much agro form the tank. Only time i use the 2 I make sure that it is going to be able to kill everything. 2 ents and 2 lightning storms in the foundry from 2 LM's = every mob in the pull dead in 3 seconds.

Originally Posted by ifreborn1

Well if burg DPS is burst what would you call a LM doing 20k-30k damage on a target with 3 skills in 3 second close to 100k aoe in the same time? thats burst your little 10 is nothing in isen. Wake up guys.

100k aoe damage... I didn't know lore-masters had a permanent 100% devastate chance.
Also I'd really like to see a lore-master that can pull off ents, lightning storm AND ISG in 3 seconds...
You could be using the EM armour to remove one of the inductions - but then you lose out on a lot of will/offence and your numbers will be significantly lower. Also the animation for each of those skills almost take 3 secs on its own...

It is really hard to take your points serious when your numbers are all that exaggerated.

Originally Posted by ifreborn1

Saruman t2 will be the test and I feel the breaking point for the burg in isen. If it pans out that burgs are low DPS for that fight the class is tost.

Cause... the ONLY thing that matters in the entire game is one single encounter? Right...

Originally Posted by ifreborn1

The levee will break and the little false praise the dragon brought you will be gone.

No idea what that means and I don't think I wanna know either.

Originally Posted by ifreborn1

+10% damage which is less with stacked marks in reality does not = the 20-30% the DPS classes do more than you. 1 burg in a raid will be the new motto never more maybe less.

False. For single target fights you still wanna stack burgs for max group dps. I don't quite trust your numbers either.

Originally Posted by ifreborn1

play a LM and find out. BE stacks 3 times with wizzards fire and ticks close to 450-500 damage a second on averag ad your pets damage and DoT from sticky goard and you are doing half waht a burg does just standing there. Staf sweep every 15 sec with Sticky goard and cracked earth all aoe all hit for 3-4k on each target. Staff strike every 5 seconds is almost eqivelent to SS from stealth better when you consider the cool down. To be honest I dont realy use ents or lightning storm in foundry It gets me killed I just generare way to much agro form the tank. Only time i use the 2 I make sure that it is going to be able to kill everything. 2 ents and 2 lightning storms in the foundry from 2 LM's = every mob in the pull dead in 3 seconds.

Pet damage? Really?
Staff strike on 5 sec cd is nice but it sucks that the animation takes 2 full secs. And it doesn't crit as high as surprise strike either - and burgs have addle ofc.
2 ents and 2 lightning storms could very well take out 5 trash mobs - but it'd take a lot longer than 3 secs to pull off. And after that you'll have 2 min cd on ents and 5 mins on LS where the burg only really has LIE on a longer cd.


Your point remains that the lm has a lot of aoe burst damage - we agree on that, not the exact numbers but your point is clear.

The burg has more single target dps than the lore-master and sometimes that is better. Can we at least agree on this?


But please - before you continue to throw any more random numbers around: could you at least do us all the favour and parse dps from your lm and your burg? I know the training dummies reset the dots from BE and all that but that can be calculated in afterwards.
Would you at least do that?

Originally Posted by Gilias

100k aoe damage... I didn't know lore-masters had a permanent 100% devastate chance.
Also I'd really like to see a lore-master that can pull off ents, lightning storm AND ISG in 3 seconds...
You could be using the EM armour to remove one of the inductions - but then you lose out on a lot of will/offence and your numbers will be significantly lower. Also the animation for each of those skills almost take 3 secs on its own...

It is really hard to take your points serious when your numbers are all that exaggerated.




Cause... the ONLY thing that matters in the entire game is one single encounter? Right...




No idea what that means and I don't think I wanna know either.




False. For single target fights you still wanna stack burgs for max group dps. I don't quite trust your numbers either.




Pet damage? Really?
Staff strike on 5 sec cd is nice but it sucks that the animation takes 2 full secs. And it doesn't crit as high as surprise strike either - and burgs have addle ofc.
2 ents and 2 lightning storms could very well take out 5 trash mobs - but it'd take a lot longer than 3 secs to pull off. And after that you'll have 2 min cd on ents and 5 mins on LS where the burg only really has LIE on a longer cd.


Your point remains that the lm has a lot of aoe burst damage - we agree on that, not the exact numbers but your point is clear.

The burg has more single target dps than the lore-master and sometimes that is better. Can we at least agree on this?


But please - before you continue to throw any more random numbers around: could you at least do us all the favour and parse dps from your lm and your burg? I know the training dummies reset the dots from BE and all that but that can be calculated in afterwards.
Would you at least do that?

you are spliting hairs when you know the burst damage a LM and burg are not even in the same ball park. And the sword from OD is a great addition to my lm. I dev crit lightning storm x3 on a single target for 20K more ofthen then you would think plus my staf sweep crit 3 targets each for 1-2k+ often and my ents is almost garenteed a crit for 6-8k and i have Deved over 14k with ents in the past. My bigest burst was a 21k lightning storn a 14.5k ents and a 5.7k sticky goard in a skirmish. Can 5 burgs even come close to those numbers in the same time? YEs I had a pocket captain.

Thats burst DPS for those of you who dont know get it straight.

As for single target DPS burg and LM are almsot the same. and Do not discard the 50-100DPS my pet ads.



When is it going to start dumping?

Originally Posted by ifreborn1

Well if burg DPS is burst what would you call a LM doing 20k-30k damage on a target with 3 skills in 3 second close to 100k aoe in the same time?

you have just made my point more valid... LM's doing 20k-30k damage on a target with 3 skills in 3 seconds and 100k AoE damage at the same time, can they sustain the 20k-30k damage the WHOLE fight not just the trash mobs but the bosses to? no they can't because the cool downs dont allow them to

Originally Posted by Barney1119

you have just made my point more valid... LM's doing 20k-30k damage on a target with 3 skills in 3 seconds and 100k AoE damage at the same time, can they sustain the 20k-30k damage the WHOLE fight not just the trash mobs but the bosses to? no they can't because the cool downs dont allow them to

WoW LOL what point? isnt burst DPS a short high damage period that you cant sustaine?

if LM's could sustaine that DPS they would be a 1 man fellowship. They sustane around 1100-1400 single target. Well ones that are played by me. The LM has more than just 2 skills if you havent played one go check it out. They are a verry dynamic class in PvE. Like i said above I tend to not even use lightning storm and ents to its fullest because it leads to to much agro and running or death.

PS>> cool video no?

Originally Posted by ifreborn1

WoW LOL what point? isnt burst DPS a short high damage period that you cant sustaine?

if LM's could sustaine that DPS they would be a 1 man fellowship. They sustane around 1100-1400 single target. Well ones that are played by me. The LM has more than just 2 skills if you havent played one go check it out. They are a verry dynamic class in PvE. Like i said above I tend to not even use lightning storm and ents to its fullest because it leads to to much agro and running or death.

PS>> cool video no?

learn to read...

can they sustain the 20k-30k damage the WHOLE fight not just the trash mobs but the bosses to? no they can't because the cool downs dont allow them to

is what I said which you obviously ignored...

Originally Posted by ifreborn1

WoW LOL what point? isnt burst DPS a short high damage period that you cant sustaine?

IS what BURST DPS is which I HAD SAID PREVIOUSLY before... Burst DPS pulls aggro from the tank instantly if started to soon (10 seconds into fighting) but can be done with no worries later on in the fight (about 45s-1minute+)

sustained DPS (let me make this simple for you to understand) is dps that is able to be kept up for long periods of time, but is also lower then burst dps because the damage is spread out more...

burgs are a single target burst DPS class, but can debuff and CC, but can indirectly buff the fellowship with revealing mark as well as off tank for a short time (30s-1min provided you get stunned and use fine footing), most people dont know what burgs actually do and CC, Debuff and Burst DPS is their 3 main roles so burglars dont have 1 role but 3, if they only had 1 role they would probably be the most used most simplest class in this game which they are not...

Oh btw I have played an LM and i did what they were used for primarily - Crowd Control (CC) and Debuffing...
i switched my LM out for a burg because the inductions on every skill were starting to annoy me because im used to moving around while im fighting which is why i like my burg...

Originally Posted by Barney1119

learn to read... is what I said which you obviously ignored...
IS what BURST DPS is which I HAD SAID PREVIOUSLY before... Burst DPS pulls aggro from the tank instantly if started to soon (10 seconds into fighting) but can be done with no worries later on in the fight (about 45s-1minute+)

sustained DPS (let me make this simple for you to understand) is dps that is able to be kept up for long periods of time, but is also lower then burst dps because the damage is spread out more...

burgs are a single target burst DPS class, but can debuff and CC, but can indirectly buff the fellowship with revealing mark as well as off tank for a short time (30s-1min provided you get stunned and use fine footing), most people dont know what burgs actually do and CC, Debuff and Burst DPS is their 3 main roles so burglars dont have 1 role but 3, if they only had 1 role they would probably be the most used most simplest class in this game which they are not...

Oh btw I have played an LM and i did what they were used for primarily - Crowd Control (CC) and Debuffing...
i switched my LM out for a burg because the inductions on every skill were starting to annoy me because im used to moving around while im fighting which is why i like my burg...

So tell me the burst skills burg have? I though they were all on short cool downs and used in normal rotations?

But, I kinda think we agree on what burst DPS is? I'm not seeing the need for the hostility?

Yes LM's can debuff and CC but thats only a small part of what they do, LM's kinda rain down fire and brimstone now. Yes they have induction, yes that makes them a verry weak solo class in PvP when you combine it with diminishing returns. But you realy should give another look to the DPS profile of geared well played LM's and give respect where respect is due. Any ToO t2 raid can be win with out a burg but they will always need the 1 LM. 1 burg is nice also just not as nice as 1 LM and i will restate my view more than 1 burg in ToO is a waste of a raid spot, there are better uses for that spot.


PS>> burst pulls agro for me on the LM 10 seconds into a fight or 30 or even @ the last 50k of a bosses or LT's life. I find my self second or first on the agro chain even mixed in with some good players. I can only relate my experences on the LM and burg and what i have witnessed. The raw damage those 2 LM skills have the power to pump out is kinda nice "i'm not gona lie" there is nothing a burg has that you can even compare it too. The sustained damage all the other skills a LM has = burg DPS. I tried to explain what all the little dots + pet add up to but no one wants to hear it, they disreguard the little parts that make up the whole. AND FOR THE LOVE OF GOD LM"S ARE A MELEE TACTICAL HYBRID. if you can get in there swing that staff.

I will add one small caveat single target low moral mobs under like 15-20k burg blows a lm away if he has traited stealth speed and you care to take that into consideration. AKA the training dummy of lies. But the LM will win if he uses his ents or lightning storm. Just not enough time to get the dots going same deal with a fire RK hard to judge vs a training dummy.

Burglar's have incredibly high DPS from the developer's viewpoint because they are looking at the class as it functions and behaves in relation to the other class. Burglars are like captains in that they are force multipliers. You yourself might not be by yourself incredibly strong but when added to a group the entire group has their abilities increased. If you think about how your debuffs effect the battle then you see your role within the group. You are doing much higher DPS through them.

So imagine that you have a champ and hunter in your group both doing 1500 DPS on the boss. Add a burglar doing 1000. That's 3100 DPS for the group. No add reveal weakness. That's 465 more incoming damage. That DPS increase is because of the burglar, so in reality that burglar is doing 1465DPS.

Now factor in all the other debuffs. You are increasing the entire team's damage. You are decreasing the damage taken and in general making everything go easier. If you or other players don't see this as useful they aren't watching the changes in numbers on both damage given and damage taken.

Do not forget as well the ability to CC. You can take a mob out of the fight. That is a huge reduction in damage taken for the group.

Burglars are incredibly useful for the group. Just as captains and loremasters are. The problem is that people are stuck into this simpleton understanding of the outdated model of the holy trinity of tank-heal-dps. A captain's DPS sucks by himself. Leading a team though it is huge because he is increasing the DPS of the entire group by an easy 500. That DPS should not be credited to the champ or hunter, but the captain because he is the reason it happened. The reason the tank is in negative DTPS? It isn't because the mini has somehow found a way to increase heals. No it is because that lore master burg just debuffed the living daylights out of that boss, so its hitting half as hard now.

Things like this can't be parsed to easily seen so they are often ignored or forgotten, but the devs do not forget these skills. As Orion said they all talk to each other. No class is independently developed from the others. They all have the damage, heals, armor, buffs, debuffs designed with the other class's abilities in mind. As an example the reason that anthem of war for mini's got nerfed was because the warden will soon have the ability to replace that damage buff if they trait and stance for it. Anything that is done to one class must be taken in consideration with another class. Burgs already have two very good roles that they can actually almost do at the same time (unlike say mini or champ who have to retrait to gain access to their secondary role at all). A burg can do great single target DPS, by virtue of reveal weakness and their own damage, and debuff the living daylights out of a boss.

In summary for those that have an aversion to reading anything other than soundbite length:

Debuffing is the primary class role and people that don't respect or understand the power of that do not understand the fundamental underpinnings of the entire game. Burglar's secondary role is that of DPS through both their own damage and multiplying the damage of the entire group.

Originally Posted by Raptor38

Burglar's have incredibly high DPS from the developer's viewpoint because they are looking at the class as it functions and behaves in relation to the other class. Burglars are like captains in that they are force multipliers. You yourself might not be by yourself incredibly strong but when added to a group the entire group has their abilities increased. If you think about how your debuffs effect the battle then you see your role within the group. You are doing much higher DPS through them.

So imagine that you have a champ and hunter in your group both doing 1500 DPS on the boss. Add a burglar doing 1000. That's 3100 DPS for the group. No add reveal weakness. That's 465 more incoming damage. That DPS increase is because of the burglar, so in reality that burglar is doing 1465DPS.

Now factor in all the other debuffs. You are increasing the entire team's damage. You are decreasing the damage taken and in general making everything go easier. If you or other players don't see this as useful they aren't watching the changes in numbers on both damage given and damage taken.

Do not forget as well the ability to CC. You can take a mob out of the fight. That is a huge reduction in damage taken for the group.

Burglars are incredibly useful for the group. Just as captains and loremasters are. The problem is that people are stuck into this simpleton understanding of the outdated model of the holy trinity of tank-heal-dps. A captain's DPS sucks by himself. Leading a team though it is huge because he is increasing the DPS of the entire group by an easy 500. That DPS should not be credited to the champ or hunter, but the captain because he is the reason it happened. The reason the tank is in negative DTPS? It isn't because the mini has somehow found a way to increase heals. No it is because that lore master burg just debuffed the living daylights out of that boss, so its hitting half as hard now.

Things like this can't be parsed to easily seen so they are often ignored or forgotten, but the devs do not forget these skills. As Orion said they all talk to each other. No class is independently developed from the others. They all have the damage, heals, armor, buffs, debuffs designed with the other class's abilities in mind. As an example the reason that anthem of war for mini's got nerfed was because the warden will soon have the ability to replace that damage buff if they trait and stance for it. Anything that is done to one class must be taken in consideration with another class. Burgs already have two very good roles that they can actually almost do at the same time (unlike say mini or champ who have to retrait to gain access to their secondary role at all). A burg can do great single target DPS, by virtue of reveal weakness and their own damage, and debuff the living daylights out of a boss.

In summary for those that have an aversion to reading anything other than soundbite length:

Debuffing is the primary class role and people that don't respect or understand the power of that do not understand the fundamental underpinnings of the entire game. Burglar's secondary role is that of DPS through both their own damage and multiplying the damage of the entire group.

Burg offers no AOE damage and no range damage to the group. If he was 5%-10% behind the other DPS dealers on single target i could see him as a valid team memember and not a drag on the group. 3 DPS classes that do 10-15% more damage than a burg are better than a burg and 2 of the DPS classes. the reality is 3 DPS classes do 25-30% more DPS than a burg and blow him out of the warter. You can have the burg in the group but he will be a drag on it. As is now the burg is balanced to provide 1 spot in an ideal raid group. Good thing we have no real 6 mans, and GL with those /t to join a 3 man.

As for the captain it adds more DPS to the group than a burg and offers much more in the form of utility with the curent design of encounters. I dont know one instance where one would want a burg over a captain in a group. Always 2 captains in a raid group.


I do come off all doom and gloom, but there are glaring problems with the design of the content or the burg class. One of them needs to be fixed or maybe a bit of both.

Originally Posted by ifreborn1

Burg offers no AOE damage and no range damage to the group. If he was 5%-10% behind the other DPS dealers on single target i could see him as a valid team memember and not a drag on the group. 3 DPS classes that do 10-15% more damage than a burg are better than a burg and 2 of the DPS classes. the reality is 3 DPS classes do 25-30% more DPS than a burg and blow him out of the warter. You can have the burg in the group but he will be a drag on it. As is now the burg is balanced to provide 1 spot in an ideal raid group. Good thing we have no real 6 mans, and GL with those /t to join a 3 man.

So, what you are saying is that would would rather take 3 dps classes over 2 dps and a class that can cc, debuff, dps, and start multiple fellowship meneuvers?
have you even played in a group that has a burg that knows what he's doing?
do you even play a burg? if you do, you are doing something horribly, horribly wrong

Originally Posted by ifreborn1

As for the captain it adds more DPS to the group than a burg and offers much more in the form of utility with the curent design of encounters. I dont know one instance where one would want a burg over a captain in a group. Always 2 captains in a raid group.

'
the reason captains add more DPS to a group is because the buffs such as "in defence of middle earth", bannars of war, and or oath breakers and critical strike buffs boost the groups dps substantially compared to the burg but! revealing mark which indirectly buffs the group's damage is a toggle skill and not a skill you have to constantly keep re using

Originally Posted by ifreborn1

I do come off all doom and gloom, but there are glaring problems with the design of the content or the burg class. One of them needs to be fixed or maybe a bit of both.

if there is a "glaring problem" as you put it for the burg then please share with us what it is, but i asure you that what you say is the problem isnt a problem at all

Originally Posted by Barney1119

So, what you are saying is that would would rather take 3 dps classes over 2 dps and a class that can cc, debuff, dps, and start multiple fellowship meneuvers?
have you even played in a group that has a burg that knows what he's doing?
do you even play a burg? if you do, you are doing something horribly, horribly wrong


'
the reason captains add more DPS to a group is because the buffs such as "in defence of middle earth", bannars of war, and or oath breakers and critical strike buffs boost the groups dps substantially compared to the burg but! revealing mark which indirectly buffs the group's damage is a toggle skill and not a skill you have to constantly keep re using




if there is a "glaring problem" as you put it for the burg then please share with us what it is, but i asure you that what you say is the problem isnt a problem at all

Captains main DPS boost come from war cry and then 2 arms.


I think I have been clear about the problem. The burg has always been about bringing more single target DPS to a group. It is falling short of that now and i am just pointing it out. The burg Does not add enough DPS to a 3/6 man group, you are better off with another champ or hunter than a burg. Those 2 classes aoe also. We are the only class locked in to melee single target DPS and we should shine at it. Yes you can run groups with a burg no problem but they are still gimped. Like someone else said people bring burgs for who is behind the keyboard. The class may be living off the dragon spot light still but its glow is starting to dim.