Thread: Come join my powwow on fire...

Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

[scene 2/5]

::ZC, dressed in his sexy but self reliant Single Female Lawyer outfit (go google it), gives a cheer and stands up::

...I lost all knowledge of what went on in this post after that. I'm just..... wow.

Originally Posted by Sagit

In turn Essence of Flame can be buffed by either reducing it's cooldown or removing it completely but in turn transform it into a non-stacking DoT that lasts about 12 seconds.

It used to be, until RoI. 8s, instead of 12, but it used to be a short-duration, high-DPS DoT that did more damage per tier of Writ of Fire. It was the perfect skill to use right before Smouldering Wrath.

I've bad-mouthed Zombie Columbus enough about the RoI change, and I hope he will into change it back to the DoT it used to be... and we haven't seen ALL of the changes yet! Cross your fingers.

Originally Posted by Bradegor

Burst DPS is also needed in certain long fights. That´s one problem. If it wasn´t by, let´s say, fights like Shadow T2 (elhudans killing), then i´d agree with you. But there are fights designed as "Long" (for Fire) which need some burst damage in certain moments. iEoF took perfectly such spot; if there is no replacement for it, well, then there will be something more the RKs won´t be able to do. Even if some skills are added to bring some (desired and asked for) variety and keep the DPS in same numbers, the lack of burst will hurt the RKs in such fights. I can say also Acid T2 is a good example but it´s not as exemplar as Shadow T2.

The situation: in Shadow T2 you need a very good burst of ranged DPS (from 1-3 players indeed, if not 4) for killing fast some certain mobs; and for fast i mean in few seconds. If you don´t so, the fight will be harder and the CM is probably lost. Right now a RK can cover that spot despite a hunter has way better burst DPS than RKs - even with iEoF- thanks to iEoF. Without it, and other burst skill, RKs won´t probably be able to do enough DPS to kill those elhudans in time, so they will be replaced by hunters (LMs and minstrels will do better burst DPS but not as good sustained DPS as RKs or hunters, which is really needed aswell).

Ok, fine. Let's give Fire skills some burst DPS. While we're at it, let's give the Lightning line some DoT's. After all, I might want to have some continuous-stream DPS that doesn't burst, sips power, and generates very little threat while lightning-traited so that I can take my lightning skills into long fights. Yeah. Lightning DoT's.

Seems kinda ridiculous from that perspective, huh?

Originally Posted by Bradegor

Great. And then, if Fire has no way of bursting, then why there are raids where burst DPS is needed? I´d agree if there is not such a raid. But that´s not the case. And considering Lightning is better usually for soloing, for trash unless you can get many and AOE -which doesnt happen always, at all, and for Moors ... what´s left for Fire? Raids was the point. But again, if you need burst there ....

Difference about Fire and Lightning isn´t just "steady versus burst". It´s mobility versus ... well, staying quiet. iEoF burst is what has made Fire working since RoI, and has given such tool to Fire RKs which was lacking before, and without burst, probably will be inferior to Lightning even for raiding.

I understand what you're saying. We do Shadow t2 with 2 ranged DPSers. I've filled the roll on my RK and it's MUCH easier with lightning than fire. I can quite easily kill one of the Elhudan's on my own before it reaches Bukot with lightning. And I'd argue that is the whole point of lightning, to do nice burst DPS. That was never the design intent for fire and while IEoF is really nice, I think it kind of made fire lose its way. Fire DPS is still very nice without IEoF, especially the AOE aspect of it. I think if Zombie can retool the skills in such a way that overall single target DPS is maintained with his proposed change to IEoF, it'll make fire much, much more fun.

Originally Posted by Ryssadis

Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

::ZC, dressed in his sexy but self reliant Single Female Lawyer outfit (go google it), gives a cheer and stands up:

...I lost all knowledge of what went on in this post after that. I'm just..... wow.

Yeah, I went there.

(BTW, that's really Zombie Columbus... LOL!)

Originally Posted by PerfectApproach

It used to be, until RoI. 8s, instead of 12, but it used to be a short-duration, high-DPS DoT that did more damage per tier of Writ of Fire. It was the perfect skill to use right before Smouldering Wrath.

I've bad-mouthed Zombie Columbus enough about the RoI change, and I hope he will into change it back to the DoT it used to be... and we haven't seen ALL of the changes yet! Cross your fingers.

Just wanna jump in and say sorry, but this will not change back under my watch. I appreciate the thematic consistency that it brought to the line, but the mechanics didn't justify it. Too often a trash mod would die as you cast if, stealing a lot of big pulses from you. Too often the perception was that fire is low damage, because it's was in such small increments.

Also, I did not think I'd look good in a mini-skirt. I guess I was wrong.

Dont change the skill, its amazing...I LOVE IT.

To Zombie Colombus: Why did you dissapear? I mean...its good to have you back but you should be more talkative, just saying.

Anyways back to the post...
-Lightning is supposed to be big hits, based on crits...etc, useful to kite, solo, etc.
-Fire dps based on Dots, tactical mastery.
-Frost in uh, debuffs? or am I wrong with something?

I really like how Fire is at the moment, lightning could use a tweak, frost need big love and healing well...fix the bugs and some improvement may work.

Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

Also, I did not think I'd look good in a mini-skirt. I guess I was wrong.

A lot of men make that mistake

Originally Posted by PerfectApproach

Ok, fine. Let's give Fire skills some burst DPS. While we're at it, let's give the Lightning line some DoT's. After all, I might want to have some continuous-stream DPS that doesn't burst, sips power, and generates very little threat while lightning-traited so that I can take my lightning skills into long fights. Yeah. Lightning DoT's.

Seems kinda ridiculous from that perspective, huh?

Ok, gonna explait it again, because looks like you don´t get it.

RKs can get two spots on a raid: healer, or ranged DPS. For the 1st spot we fight with minstrels for a spot, for the 2nd one we fight with hunters. Hunters have the most amazing burst DPS out there, but they can put at the time a very respected steady DPS. Yes, they can do both things at the time. And using the same LI.

Now, devs design some fights where both steady and burst DPS are needed. Steady most of the time, but there is a certain part(s) of the fight when its CRITICAL that you have an important burst damage. You must kill some things in just few seconds , or the fight is screwed.

Up to day, both hunters and RKs can fill that ranged spot. RKs put awesome steady damage, on par with the hunters one, but they can from time to time use some burst, and such burst just give the chance of getting that spot.

Now, if you take the burst away from the "raid" traitline, ... what happens with such fights? So we can do two things:

1) Stay as we are. Our burst won´t be enough as there won´t be any Fire skill doing it, and as we´re not prepared for burst, we don´t have the Lightning set, we don´t have a Lightning LI, nor Lightning traits, our Lightning skills won´t do enough burst to kill those mobs, and the fight will be screwed. Note there is a difference between our current problem with minstrels; sure, they´re better than us but we still can do the job. I´d doubt that a Fire RK, not even the best geared one, would be able to kill those mobs fast enough.

2) Add some Lightning for that fight, when burst is needed. This means:

a) we would have to make a Lightning runestone, because as you know you cannot put all the Lightning and Fire legacies onto one weapon, nor even a 1st ager, with enough points. And let´s not talk about getting ANOTHER 1st ager ... they have an awful drop rate and any raiding Rk would need now 3 instead of 2 for maximum efficiency... the same efficiency that a minstrel or hunter would have with just one. That´s a big problem if you ask me, a 1st ager brings around a 8% extra healing/dmg. The hunter would get such advantage over your probably 2nd ager Lightning stone, plus the extra % you´re "losing" from traits. Big enough.

b) we would have to get some Lightning traits. Even traiting, we would lose the damage bonus the 4 traits set, either for Fire or for Lightning, meaning Fire would lose 4-8% damage output (currently most raiders go with 6 Fire traits) and Lightning still wouldn´t get the damage bonus. We wouldn´t put enough burst, or if we would do, we would be clearly hurting our steady damage so clealry hunters would outDPS us.

Let´s not talk about power usage...

Not a solution.

Again, the differences between Fire and Lighting are not burst/steady damage, are mobility/not mobility. Lightning is supposed to be a mobility way of DPSing while Fire needs to stand still. That´s the main difference. Note that every Lightning skill is instant while every Fire skill is an induction. Note also that not every Fire skill is a dot. This means something.

So i cannot understand why can´t Fire have a SINGLE burst DPS skill. I wouldn´t mind if Lightning would have some sustained damage. Actually Sustaining Bolt is made for making steady DPS thanks to its power reduction. It´s the "iEoF" of the Lightning traits. Why can´t Fire get then a single burst skill?

I hope you can see the whole picture this way (i´m not optimist but :P). The same way we were asking for balancing for a spot with minstrels, we would argue for losing the balance nowadays exists about bringing a RK or a hunter as a ranged DPS spot on a raid. You probably don´t raid and don´t care much, but some of us do.

Originally Posted by Bradegor

Now, devs design some fights where both steady and burst DPS are needed. Steady most of the time, but there is a certain part(s) of the fight when its CRITICAL that you have an important burst damage. You must kill some things in just few seconds , or the fight is screwed.

Ok, you wave about with plausible (and probably factual) arguments as to why we need burst DPS, but you fail to specify how much. Clearly 2k DPS is not enough (as you'd be pushing that with a good rotation and a 1st ager, claiming to be on par with Hunters).

Could you give some kind of numbers? Like

* I need to do 8k extra damage over 5 seconds
or
* I need to do 15k total damage within 5 seconds

Originally Posted by Bradegor

Ok, gonna explait it again, because looks like you don´t get it.

RKs can get two spots on a raid: healer, or ranged DPS. For the 1st spot we fight with minstrels for a spot, for the 2nd one we fight with hunters. Hunters have the most amazing burst DPS out there, but they can put at the time a very respected steady DPS. Yes, they can do both things at the time. And using the same LI.

Now, devs design some fights where both steady and burst DPS are needed. Steady most of the time, but there is a certain part(s) of the fight when its CRITICAL that you have an important burst damage. You must kill some things in just few seconds , or the fight is screwed.

Up to day, both hunters and RKs can fill that ranged spot. RKs put awesome steady damage, on par with the hunters one, but they can from time to time use some burst, and such burst just give the chance of getting that spot.

Now, if you take the burst away from the "raid" traitline, ... what happens with such fights? So we can do two things:

1) Stay as we are. Our burst won´t be enough as there won´t be any Fire skill doing it, and as we´re not prepared for burst, we don´t have the Lightning set, we don´t have a Lightning LI, nor Lightning traits, our Lightning skills won´t do enough burst to kill those mobs, and the fight will be screwed. Note there is a difference between our current problem with minstrels; sure, they´re better than us but we still can do the job. I´d doubt that a Fire RK, not even the best geared one, would be able to kill those mobs fast enough.

2) Add some Lightning for that fight, when burst is needed. This means:

a) we would have to make a Lightning runestone, because as you know you cannot put all the Lightning and Fire legacies onto one weapon, nor even a 1st ager, with enough points. And let´s not talk about getting ANOTHER 1st ager ... they have an awful drop rate and any raiding Rk would need now 3 instead of 2 for maximum efficiency... the same efficiency that a minstrel or hunter would have with just one. That´s a big problem if you ask me, a 1st ager brings around a 8% extra healing/dmg. The hunter would get such advantage over your probably 2nd ager Lightning stone, plus the extra % you´re "losing" from traits. Big enough.

b) we would have to get some Lightning traits. Even traiting, we would lose the damage bonus the 4 traits set, either for Fire or for Lightning, meaning Fire would lose 4-8% damage output (currently most raiders go with 6 Fire traits) and Lightning still wouldn´t get the damage bonus. We wouldn´t put enough burst, or if we would do, we would be clearly hurting our steady damage so clealry hunters would outDPS us.

Let´s not talk about power usage...

Not a solution.

Again, the differences between Fire and Lighting are not burst/steady damage, are mobility/not mobility. Lightning is supposed to be a mobility way of DPSing while Fire needs to stand still. That´s the main difference. Note that every Lightning skill is instant while every Fire skill is an induction. Note also that not every Fire skill is a dot. This means something.

So i cannot understand why can´t Fire have a SINGLE burst DPS skill. I wouldn´t mind if Lightning would have some sustained damage. Actually Sustaining Bolt is made for making steady DPS thanks to its power reduction. It´s the "iEoF" of the Lightning traits. Why can´t Fire get then a single burst skill?

I hope you can see the whole picture this way (i´m not optimist but :P). The same way we were asking for balancing for a spot with minstrels, we would argue for losing the balance nowadays exists about bringing a RK or a hunter as a ranged DPS spot on a raid. You probably don´t raid and don´t care much, but some of us do.

Bradegor brings up some good points. There is, in general, some raid fights (like Shadow) that require a burst dps component in addition to sustained damage. For those fights that require a good balance of both, the fire-traited RK probably won't be a top choice for the ranged dps slot unless there are additional changes to other fire skills to counter the burst dps lost from IEoF. Traiting hybrid as an RK isn't an option unless you want to be mediocre at both sustained and burst dps.

Then, when you combine that with the fact that some fights (i.e. shadow) are better suited for a longer ranged dps class (hunter), there's even less reason to bring an RK. If you don't know why a hunter's 40m ranged is more ideal for shadow over a 20m lightning range, then you're either not familiar with the wing or you're not willing to be realistic and admit that a 40m is highly ideal there. Clearly, as Ygaer pointed out, it can be done traited lightning, but for me, it was far easier to complete that instance fire traited than it was lightning.
I traited lightning exactly once for Shadow, and regretted it immensely. I killed the eludhans I was responsible for with no problems, but then ended up consistently being rooted or black clouded out of range of the boss/other adds. Yea, that's not very fun. At least with fire, I was able to stand in range of the boss and stay in reasonable range of the eludhans as well and still blow them up (using improved essay). Further, my DPS was lower lightning spec than it was when I traited fire, and I have very respectable fire and lightning builds.

But, shadow is only one wing. I get that. And, personally, fire is the way to go for Orthanc as it stands presently - even for those fights that require burst dps.

Here are some simple statements that are universally known to be true for the most part:

1) Fire spec, as it stands now before Update 6, is very potent for sustained fights. It is more potent than lightning, particularly in the Tower where many mobs/bosses are weaker to fire in general and for other reasons that have been discussed in other threads.
2) When needed, fire spec'd RKs can put out great burst DPS using IEoF.
3) Lightning spec is very potent for short burst DPS fights, particularly for those fights that require a lot of movement (OD wound wing!)
4) Lightning spec, however, is less potent against bosses and in sustained fights, for reasons mentioned in other threads.
5) Therefore, as it stands now, if fire can do both awesome sustained dps and burst dps, using IEoF, then it is the most viable dps trait line to use for raiding right now. That statement is in line with the traditional thought that fire was generally made to be the raiding trait line.
6) With Update 6, it sounds like (though we haven't yet seen all the changes Z.C. has in store for us, so we are just speculating at this point), fire will no longer have a burst dps component to it.

--> So, if fire will only be most potent for those fights that are longer/sustained fights and lightning continues to be most potent for those fights that are short-duration burst fights, then how shall RKs trait, in future raids where a single wing requires both? If we trait fire, we're less effective at the burst dps component of the wing. If we trait lightning, we're less effective at the sustained dps component of the wing. If we trait hybrid, we're mediocre at both and that's certainly not ideal... unless the two extra slots we'll garner from the linnod traits being unslotted with allow us to be 5 deep in a trait line, while still maintaining a couple in the other. Even still, that's not ideal.

Now, if you note that hunters can do very potent sustained and burst dps in blue line and arguably in red line (up for debate - personally, I've always preferred blue line on my hunter even for burst dps with fleetness) and, as far as we know, there won't be any penalties to either of those trait lines for either sustained or burst dps, then it stands to reason.... that hunters will be the ideal choice for those fights that require both sustained and burst dps without being less effective in either.

So, a quick summary: RKs will be less effective in either sustained or burst dps depending on how traited. Hunters will continue to be effective in both sustained and burst dps no matter if traited blue or red line.


If I put raiding entirely aside, from a 3 man/6 man/skirm raid vantage point, I prefer fire even then. I think, perhaps, I just enjoy fire more than I do lightning... but burst dps fire potential has made for some nice burst dps where AoE is useful (Foundry, Pits, Fangorn's, even Darg Huva boss). I guess this means I'll be back to being forced to trait lightning for those instances, as the slow ramp-up on fire won't be very effective on trash pulls, etc.

Originally Posted by Raven-EU

Ok, you wave about with plausible (and probably factual) arguments as to why we need burst DPS, but you fail to specify how much. Clearly 2k DPS is not enough (as you'd be pushing that with a good rotation and a 1st ager, claiming to be on par with Hunters).

Could you give some kind of numbers? Like

* I need to do 8k extra damage over 5 seconds
or
* I need to do 15k total damage within 5 seconds

For the eludhans, which is the burst dps rquired for the Shadow wing (and, to a lesser extent the other adds), you need to do 17K damage in about 8 seconds if the boss is centered near the throne. With the Northern Gloom, it's definitely important to get that one down very quickly (within 8ish seconds) as it seems to move faster?! The Eastern gloom you can potentially have 10 seconds to get it down before it reaches the throne/boss area. The Southern gloom is less important overall.
Anyway, traited fire you can presently get that 17K down single handedly with IEoF right now. With help, it goes down that much quicker. Traited lightning, you can still get that 17K down single handedly (though I was slightly less effective than I was with fire), but your sustained dps on the boss suffers, and you're limited by a 20m range.

Originally Posted by Bradegor

So i cannot understand why can´t Fire have a SINGLE burst DPS skill. I wouldn´t mind if Lightning would have some sustained damage. Actually Sustaining Bolt is made for making steady DPS thanks to its power reduction. It´s the "iEoF" of the Lightning traits. Why can´t Fire get then a single burst skill?

Fire DOES have a single burst skill: Essence of Flame. And as much as I don't like it, it's not going to change anytime soon. Set up properly, it's instant-use, and can hit for EC-like numbers. If you want more burst, you should roll a hunter, or a champ, or a burglar, or pretty much any other class besides a fire-traited RK. It's just counterintuitive to me to roll a class that is pretty much the king of Damage-Over-Time, trait for Damage-Over-Time, and complain that it doesn't burst enough. There are SO MANY other things you can do to achieve good burst damage in a raid.

Originally Posted by Bradegor

You probably don´t raid and don´t care much, but some of us do.

That's not dramatic at all!

Not that it's any of your business what I do on my RK, but I do raid, quite frequently, and I do care. I don't know when you started playing your RK, but I started when MoM released. Malf is my only level-cap toon, and it has always ever been my only level-cap toon. I have only ever rolled 1 alt, and he's still at 41. I have only ever traited for Fire on my RK, and anyone on Brandywine who knows me knows that I've always traited Fire, even when Fire was drastically inferior to lightning. Not to blow my own horn, but there only a handful of RK's who are experts in Fire DPS, and I'm one of them. Anyone who knows me on Brandywine (not a small number) will attest to that, including a few that post on these forums.

As to raiding, I have fought in every raid in the game. I have utterly destroyed The Rift and Dar Narbugud, ON-LEVEL, and I have the titles to prove it. I've fought every boss in Barad Guldur, and beat a couple of them. I've raided in Ost Dunhoth (although I haven't fought the last 2 bosses), and I've fought every boss in Orthanc. I've beaten all of them except for Saruman, and my kin is working on that. And I've done all of these things Fire-traited. I've fought in every other instance in the game, and I can't think of any instances smaller than raids in which I haven't completed the Challenge.

Be careful what assumptions you make, and who you make them about. Your opinion loses value when the people who know what they're talking about see you making a mistake like questioning someone's dedication to their class/play style.

Originally Posted by PerfectApproach

Fire DOES have a single burst skill: Essence of Flame. And as much as I don't like it, it's not going to change anytime soon. Set up properly, it's instant-use, and can hit for EC-like numbers. If you want more burst, you should roll a hunter, or a champ, or a burglar, or pretty much any other class besides a fire-traited RK. It's just counterintuitive to me to roll a class that is pretty much the king of Damage-Over-Time, trait for Damage-Over-Time, and complain that it doesn't burst enough. There are SO MANY other things you can do to achieve good burst damage in a raid.

Yes, there are many things that we can do for burst, but Lightning is currently not one of them.

You need to remember that EVERY DPS class needs some sort of burst damage to stay on par with the rest. Having a completely DoT based class is not good, even if it feels thematically appropriate. Fire Rks are supposed to focus on DoTs, not devote their entire rotation to them, because again, all DPS specs need some sort of burst damage.

Originally Posted by PerfectApproach

As to raiding, I have fought in every raid in the game. I have utterly destroyed The Rift and Dar Narbugud, ON-LEVEL, and I have the titles to prove it. I've fought every boss in Barad Guldur, and beat a couple of them. I've raided in Ost Dunhoth (although I haven't fought the last 2 bosses), and I've fought every boss in Orthanc. I've beaten all of them except for Saruman, and my kin is working on that. And I've done all of these things Fire-traited. I've fought in every other instance in the game, and I can't think of any instances smaller than raids in which I haven't completed the Challenge.

Be careful what assumptions you make, and who you make them about. Your opinion loses value when the people who know what they're talking about see you making a mistake like questioning someone's dedication to their class/play style.

So you never completed BG nor OD and you raid ToO on tier 1?
I don't really see why you bothered to write a whole pragraph about that... And I understand even less why you bother to argue against Brad when he says we need burst for fight X and Y, when you've experienced neither!

Currently, burst DPS is crucial for 3/5 boss-fights in t2 ToO, with the exceptions being Lightning and Saruman. Add to that, every single trash fight needs burst too, because of adaptation. Unfortunatly, a single EoF is not going to cut it.

Now, I welcome a change in rotations for Fire, don't get me wrong, but would really hate to see it come at the expense of our usefulness in raids, which looks to be the current direction.

Or maybe someone is able to tell me how we will be able to do ~17k damage in roughly 8 seconds, on a completely fresh target and without relying on crits?

I'll say it again, Lightning works perfectly fine in Shadow and fills that role really well. You need to plan out ahead where you need to be when the adds are coming out, but it is MORE than servicable for Shadow. I know this because I've done it :P

Burst DPS shows up in fire in the form of smouldering wrath and essence of flame. But the way IEoF was changed made it pretty ridiculous, to the point where fiery ridicule spam for 90% of your rotation was the best way to go. This was silly and so long as the efficacy of fire isn't being reduced, I'll be very happy to have this changed up.

Originally Posted by PerfectApproach

Fire DOES have a single burst skill: Essence of Flame. And as much as I don't like it, it's not going to change anytime soon. Set up properly, it's instant-use, and can hit for EC-like numbers. If you want more burst, you should roll a hunter, or a champ, or a burglar, or pretty much any other class besides a fire-traited RK. It's just counterintuitive to me to roll a class that is pretty much the king of Damage-Over-Time, trait for Damage-Over-Time, and complain that it doesn't burst enough. There are SO MANY other things you can do to achieve good burst damage in a raid.

Do you call EoF burst damage? Well, let´s see. EoF is a 2 seconds induction, which relies on your target to have WoF applied to have some kind of damage modifier. Now, add that Fire, contrary to Lightning, has ZERO crit multiplier (that´s why it´s not good for bursts in anyways). Also, add that Fire doesn´t have much crit rating on its set, nor on traits etc. So you will have mostly a 2k damage skill which, unless the target is raid debuffed and so - and it won´t, remember the case we´re talking about-, it won´t crit for much more than 3-4k.

Do you seriously call this a burst damage? That set-up you call, is precisely what the RKs wont have when the adds come and the burst will be needed. Sure, you will save iEoF for doing EoF and taking the induction away, but simply, it won´t be enough.

I´m not complaining about not doing burst as Fire. I´m complaining about, how Ruinthiliel has perfectly explained out, that the only raid we seriously can do needs LOTS of burst DPS. Meaning that every DPSer there will need burst damage. Every one. A DPS classes solely based in dots and damage over time has no room in 3 of the 5 fights of ToO.

Now, consider that Lightning, the other spec, doesn´t have the range nor the sustained damage for being useful in some ToO fights. And going hybrid means losing lot of firepower which mostly won´t work as any hunter will outDPS the RK in BOTH sustained and burst DPS. So please, explain me what´s your solution for bringing a DPS RK for these fights.

I can forgive your post as you seem not to know about this fight, i guess you will have to trust on the people who has done it. But as it has been explained, you need to kill a 17k morale mob in less than 8 seconds in 2-3 parts of the fight, and futhermore to keep great/awesome DPS on a raid boss so your class will be useful. A hunter can do it. A RK going Fire can do it aswell nowadays. A Lightning RK can do the burst but have issues with range and in general with sustained DPS. And, if there is no other burst for Fire in the next patch, no RK will be able to do it unless going VERY lucky on crits.

I´d hate to change from having issues on healing to having issues on DPSing on raids. I doubt anyone fear a Fire RK in the Moors so i really can´t understand why a Fire RK will be taken out from every kind of burst, unless ZC shows us soon that there will come another burst damage for Fire.

As i prefer to be constructive, here i´d throw a suggestion for switching: a long CD (2 mins, for example) skill that removes all the dots in the target and deals inmediatly a 80% of the damage the dots would do over the time. Can change the % if you feel it´s too powerful. This way, for some raids we always could cast iEoF, EoF and afterwards that skill. And it wouldn´t be broken specially considering that it wouldn´t be good for sustained fights as some part of the damage would be lost.

Originally Posted by Ellery01

I'll say it again, Lightning works perfectly fine in Shadow and fills that role really well. You need to plan out ahead where you need to be when the adds are coming out, but it is MORE than servicable for Shadow. I know this because I've done it :P

Burst DPS shows up in fire in the form of smouldering wrath and essence of flame. But the way IEoF was changed made it pretty ridiculous, to the point where fiery ridicule spam for 90% of your rotation was the best way to go. This was silly and so long as the efficacy of fire isn't being reduced, I'll be very happy to have this changed up.

Humm what´s your parses with Lightning? last time i tried with same kind of LIs, it was around 20% less overall damage on long (3 mins+) fights. And it´s probably higher. Plus, there is some situations that even preventing the black clouds, you can get a bad timed root and have range issues on the elhudans. Can happen perfectly. Plus 10 less meters means you need to get closer to the side of the Elhudan, meaning that you´re probably losing worthy DPS on the boss... sorry i don´t buy it.

Smouldering Wrath burst DPS? .... seriously? Just check numbers. 17k in around 8 seconds. You won´t get close to 2k DPS doing Smouldering Wrath which will have around 1k DPS unless you put serious dots on the target (and you won´t have time for that).

Bradegor, I've done Shadow T2 quite a few times now, including beating it. I'm telling you that a lightning RK works really well for DPS. A hunter is better because of their 40m range (which is still longer than fire RKs, so they're still better :P), but lightning RKs can get the job done if they know the fight and are prepared. If you NEED burst DPS, then you really should NEED to go lightning. That should be a bottom line of the way the class works.

Lightning does not have issues with sustained DPS either. Fire DPS parses maybe 5% higher than lightning in the most ideal circumstances over an extended period of time. The moment you add in moving around, interrupt hops or what have you, that gap gets smaller and smaller.

Lightning is still great guys! I don't know when RKs gave up on it post ROI but it still works pretty darn well. The issue RKs have is definitely not the DPS in either of their trait lines. It's the complete lack of tools for survivability and utility in a raid OTHER than DPS.

Originally Posted by Bradegor

Humm what´s your parses with Lightning? last time i tried with same kind of LIs, it was around 20% less overall damage on long (3 mins+) fights. And it´s probably higher. Plus, there is some situations that even preventing the black clouds, you can get a bad timed root and have range issues on the elhudans. Can happen perfectly. Plus 10 less meters means you need to get closer to the side of the Elhudan, meaning that you´re probably losing worthy DPS on the boss... sorry i don´t buy it.

Smouldering Wrath burst DPS? .... seriously? Just check numbers. 17k in around 8 seconds. You won´t get close to 2k DPS doing Smouldering Wrath which will have around 1k DPS unless you put serious dots on the target (and you won´t have time for that).

Sorry saw this post late after my most recent. I think you're kind of making my point for me, you shouldn't be relying on fire to kill the Elhudan :P Lightning can do it, I know this because I did it with lightning! I had to get in position before hand and give up a few seconds of DPS yes, but it worked well while also fighting the design mechanic for the class :P There has to be a tradeoff between the two that goes beyond mobility. I parse 1700ish with lightning single target over 2 minutes on the training dummies in Galtrev without any buffs/debuffs. In raid situations, the more burgs we stack the better lightning does comparitively to fire, and recently we've been bringing at least 2 burgs :P If you're doing 20% more DPS with fire then I'd argue your lightning rotation is terrible. Something important that gets overlooked by most RKs is that attack duration is CRITICAL to the success of lightning DPS. I generally find that the better the support classes are in my raid (Captains/Minis) the more relative gain I get using lightning compared to fire in that raid.

Originally Posted by Ellery01

I parse 1700ish with lightning single target over 2 minutes on the training dummies in Galtrev without any buffs/debuffs.

So, what do you parse in 8 Seconds?

Since we are talking burst DPS, show us your 8 Second numbers.

Originally Posted by Ellery01

A hunter is better because of their 40m range

Originally Posted by Ellery01

If you NEED burst DPS, then you really should NEED to go lightning.

Originally Posted by Ellery01

Lightning does not have issues with sustained DPS either.

Originally Posted by Ellery01

There has to be a tradeoff between the two that goes beyond mobility.

Thank you for perfectly advocating why Fire should not lose its burst potential!

Honestly, I really don't see much use in a trait-line that offers little but flat DPS. I guess Fire is condemned to be the best option for some theoretical fight that doesn't exist in the game, just like it was before RoI.
Up till now, it has had a bland rotation, but it was perfectly suited for the content, more so than it has ever been before, which made me happy as I could finally use my favourite trait-line, without being sub-optimal.

Without burst DPS, Fire is simply not well suited for ToO T2. Period.

Originally Posted by Sizzling

For the eludhans, which is the burst dps rquired for the Shadow wing (and, to a lesser extent the other adds), you need to do 17K damage in about 8 seconds if the boss is centered near the throne. With the Northern Gloom, it's definitely important to get that one down very quickly (within 8ish seconds) as it seems to move faster?! The Eastern gloom you can potentially have 10 seconds to get it down before it reaches the throne/boss area. The Southern gloom is less important overall.
Anyway, traited fire you can presently get that 17K down single handedly with IEoF right now. With help, it goes down that much quicker. Traited lightning, you can still get that 17K down single handedly (though I was slightly less effective than I was with fire), but your sustained dps on the boss suffers, and you're limited by a 20m range.

Thanks for the numbers! So as long as we can produce 20k burst over 10 second evary N seconds 60? 90? seconds) we should be fine, is that what you're telling me? I think it's utterly important to have these kinds of numbers because we can put them forward as hard facts: Unless we can do A we will not get invited to raid B.

It also makes testing on Bullroarer so much easier once the changes hit: We can go to a dummy and blow everything and see where we land. If it's 20k+ then we're ok, if it's less than 15k then we need a burst buff.

Originally Posted by Bradegor

So i cannot understand why can´t Fire have a SINGLE burst DPS skill. I wouldn´t mind if Lightning would have some sustained damage. Actually Sustaining Bolt is made for making steady DPS thanks to its power reduction. It´s the "iEoF" of the Lightning traits. Why can´t Fire get then a single burst skill.

One solution for this kind of available but not sustained DPS would be to have a skill that did something unpleasant to you as a side-effect, to the point where you'd only want to use it when burst is at a critical.

Let's say, for instance, that there was a power (or maybe a consumable item?) that consumed and resolved all DoTs, but then left you Stunned/Power-reduced/On Fire/Or Something as a negative side-effect. Properly balanced, this would be a good tool, but not something you would use for sustained DPS, only for when you have to burst.

You could change Smoldering Wrath, for instance -- it's not like it's good for much at the moment...

(Or give us burst DPS by simply making Smoldering Wrath do a ridiculous amount of damage, that's cool too. ;-) )

Originally Posted by Ruintheliel

Thank you for perfectly advocating why Fire should not lose its burst potential!

Honestly, I really don't see much use in a trait-line that offers little but flat DPS. I guess Fire is condemned to be the best option for some theoretical fight that doesn't exist in the game, just like it was before RoI.
Up till now, it has had a bland rotation, but it was perfectly suited for the content, more so than it has ever been before, which made me happy as I could finally use my favourite trait-line, without being sub-optimal.

Without burst DPS, Fire is simply not well suited for ToO T2. Period.

I think you're drawing the wrong conclusions. Fire is better for sustained DPS because it comes with slightly higher output along with MUCH better power and aggro management. That makes it ideal for long fights in raids so long as you don't need to move a lot or kill spawning adds quickly. I think this is fine and fire does this job pretty well right now. The fact that you have the ability to do a 5-6 second burst of DPS every 25-30 seconds that rivals or surpasses what you can do with lightning is WRONG. Burst DPS is what lightning should do, not fire. Lightning's total sustained DPS over any significant amount of time is less than fire's (Just not by 20% :P), as it should be, on top of the reduced power efficiency and aggro management. That is what the trade off should be. You can't have your cake and eat it too. RKs aren't hunters. It's not a big deal that hunters happen to be more suitable for killing the Elhudan's in shadow t2 :P

Originally Posted by JeauxLOTR

So, what do you parse in 8 Seconds?

Since we are talking burst DPS, show us your 8 Second numbers.

In a fight like Shadow t2 I'd be at full attunement with at least my CA damage buff up when the Elhudan's spawned. In 8 seconds I'd probably go shocking words, essence of storm, scribe's spark, sustaining bolt then epic conclusion. Those 5 skills could range anywhere from ~9k to 22k depending on crits and require about 5-6 seconds to fire. I still have time for at least 2 ceaseless arguments and a scribe's spark after that.

Originally Posted by Ellery01

That makes it ideal for long fights in raids so long as you don't need to move a lot or kill spawning adds quickly.

So Kalbak only then? Oh wait, burst is invaluable for the last 20%.
F&F? Pretty much a toss up
Acid? nope, burst for adds, burst for boss before the next wave.
Shadow? Obviously not.
Saruman? On T1 sure.. on t2? nope, need that first kill to ease the fight.

Great, so much for a raid DPS-line...

Originally Posted by Ellery01

Sorry saw this post late after my most recent. I think you're kind of making my point for me, you shouldn't be relying on fire to kill the Elhudan :P Lightning can do it, I know this because I did it with lightning! I had to get in position before hand and give up a few seconds of DPS yes, but it worked well while also fighting the design mechanic for the class :P There has to be a tradeoff between the two that goes beyond mobility. I parse 1700ish with lightning single target over 2 minutes on the training dummies in Galtrev without any buffs/debuffs. In raid situations, the more burgs we stack the better lightning does comparitively to fire, and recently we've been bringing at least 2 burgs :P If you're doing 20% more DPS with fire then I'd argue your lightning rotation is terrible. Something important that gets overlooked by most RKs is that attack duration is CRITICAL to the success of lightning DPS. I generally find that the better the support classes are in my raid (Captains/Minis) the more relative gain I get using lightning compared to fire in that raid.

Too many variables to rely on for my taste. Though even in those circumstances you described above (2 burgs, captain's war cry, minstrel's anthem of prowess), fire will still out DPS lightning overall. Your DPS over a 2m period on a training dummy means little to me. I much prefer to analyze the DPS I'm doing in actual raid settings where you're competing with other dps classes for overall damage done, etc. Yes, my kin actively compares DPS amongst the DPS classes as a way to push us all to maximize our DPS. The only way I've been able to consistently match a hunter's DPS in raids is traited fire. Oh, sure, lightning is adequate and perfectly fine as you've stated, but, in general, I prefer to maximize my DPS in all cases. I don't care to settle for having less overall damage with lightning, which is exactly what I'd be doing, even if it's marginally less as you admitted.

After doing several parses lightning and fire traited in ToO (yes, I do have the -2.5% attack duration rune on my lightning stone/satchel), I can definitively say that fire will out dps lightning in locks 1-4 every time - at least pre-Update 6. Traiting lightning in Saruman , whether t1 or t2, is just ridiculous and downright foolish.

I don't raid on my RK (as DPS) to just merely have acceptable DPS. Acceptable DPS isn't an option. The only option is maximizing your DPS so as to be on par with other DPS classes, that should also be maximizing their DPS. I will still maintain that traiting fire, at least right now, pre-Update 6, is the way to do that. If you want to continue to have acceptable DPS that is merely adequate, you can continue to trait lightning.

Post Update 6, I honestly have no idea how traiting fire will pan out. Probably not well if we don't have any burst dps potential with it. So, yes, we'll we traiting lightning for those burst DPS fights and doing less overall DPS as a result.

Originally Posted by Ellery01

I think you're drawing the wrong conclusions. Fire is better for sustained DPS because it comes with slightly higher output along with MUCH better power and aggro management. That makes it ideal for long fights in raids so long as you don't need to move a lot or kill spawning adds quickly. I think this is fine and fire does this job pretty well right now. The fact that you have the ability to do a 5-6 second burst of DPS every 25-30 seconds that rivals or surpasses what you can do with lightning is WRONG. Burst DPS is what lightning should do, not fire. Lightning's total sustained DPS over any significant amount of time is less than fire's (Just not by 20% :P), as it should be, on top of the reduced power efficiency and aggro management. That is what the trade off should be. You can't have your cake and eat it too. RKs aren't hunters. It's not a big deal that hunters happen to be more suitable for killing the Elhudan's in shadow t2 :P

I´m gonna give you a very practical reason why Fire shouldn´t lose that burst. First, because burst is not what differences Fire and Lightning. It´s mobility. Lightning is mainly for fights where you have to move, with oponents on you even. So soloing, skirmishing, PvMP, small fellowships. Fire is made for fights where you have fellows who will draw aggro to them, and you can stay quiet. Then, you´re supposed to deal the most damage. It´s even tooltipped.

Fire didn´t work before RoI, where 95% of RKs used Lightning, even on fellowship/raids. There was no reason to use Fire: no better DPS even without being attacked and standed still, total lack of burst, probs due it was slow and bosses wiped dots. Things changed in RoI and all the issues were solved. But now...

Fire should be better than Lightning when it raids. Period. It was made for such issue. Lightning is already better in soloing, small fellowships, Moors. But without burst, Lightning will end up being better than Fire except in two fights... so, basically, we will go back to the times when we all used Lightning. Oh! but now hunters will outDPS us again and we wont have AOE at all, meaning we will be way less useful on raids.

Yourself is an example of all this. If you can do as much damage in Lightning than in Fire, with burst while Fire can´t, ... what is the reason of traiting Fire? If lightning serves better for raids than Fire ... what´s the point of even having the Fire tree? Check. Soloing: Lightning > Fire. Moors? L > F. Small fellowships? L > F. Raids without Fire burst? L > F -in most raids but Saruman. What´s the point of traiting Fire, of spending so many seals/meds for getting the Fire set? For just Saruman?

I don´t want that. I want distintions between uses of Fire and Lightning, i don´t want a single trait tree to dominate DPS as it has been doing for years. And believe me, if let´s say Fire only parses slightly better than Lightning, will do it worse without iEoF burst and this will mean the end of the Fire trait and 95% of the RKs will go back to Lightning again as it will be better than Fire in any kind of situation. Like before RoI.

I really want to see the whole picture, let´s hope ZC puts soon the diary in. But things look bad for Fire if there won´t be burst. We all can agree that Fire was a bit boring and too much FR spamming, but at least was tailored for DPS in raids.

Oh! and about hunters more suitable ... it´s fine. As i said before, they´re better at burst than us, even on Lightning. I mean about the ability of doing it in Fire. Without iEoF is totally not possible you can do 17k dmg in less than 8 seconds. Period. We dont have to be hunters to be able to do it.

Originally Posted by Ellery01

The fact that you have the ability to do a 5-6 second burst of DPS every 25-30 seconds that rivals or surpasses what you can do with lightning is WRONG. Burst DPS is what lightning should do, not fire.

I'm going to throw a little tantrum here (and be childish as a result) and say if a hunter (traited blue particularly) can do amazing burst dps and sustained dps in one of their trait lines, if not both trait lines, why can't RKs have a trait line where you can do amazing burst dps and sustained dps too?
Taking away the burst DPS potential for fire for the RK means that they will be less effective in either burst or sustained DPS depending on traiting. Why take a less effective class if you have other options (hunter, as that's the only other viable ranged dps class) that won't be less effective traited a particular way?
Edit: I'm going to try and take a step back and just use the wait and see approach. I'm not a very patient person, however, and I will readily admit I jump to conclusions quickly sometimes, which is exactly what I'm doing here... I'll try to be less doom/gloom (though I prefer to think of it as being realistic and practical) and hope that fire will continue to be optimal post Update 6 for those fights that require a mixture of both sustained and burst dps.

Originally Posted by Ruintheliel

So Kalbak only then? Oh wait, burst is invaluable for the last 20%.
F&F? Pretty much a toss up
Acid? nope, burst for adds, burst for boss before the next wave.
Shadow? Obviously not.
Saruman? On T1 sure.. on t2? nope, need that first kill to ease the fight.

Great, so much for a raid DPS-line...

This is all very disingenuous. The only fight in Orthanc where you absolutely have to have a strong 'burst' of 5-6 seconds of DPS is to kill one of the Elhudan's in Shadow t2. Period. Your other examples are you just being silly since fire's burst is one IEoF every 25-30 seconds (or 1 minute if you go with Orthanc set) that lasts for 5 seconds. Not 30.

My argument here has always been predicated on the fact that ZC's changes are not going to reduce the overall efficacy of fire DPS. Meaning if he changes IEoF to only remove 1 induction instead of all inductions for 5 seconds, then he's making up for that loss elsewhere in the numbers. Like I've said before, if you abso-positively-lutely HAVE to have 5-10 seconds of burst DPS, that should be accomplished with lightning, not fire. I really don't think there's a lot of room for debate on that, and I have the feeling ZC is gonna feel the same way. Fire SHOULD (and hopefully will) do better sustained DPS than lightning AS WELL as better power management and aggro management. Those 3 things are what will make it the generic raid DPS trait line. On the off change you're being asked to kill the Elhudan in Shadow t2, then I'm sorry, you should have to use lightning if you want to do it reliably on your own.

RKs are not hunters. Champs are not burgs. Guards are not wardens. Classes aren't the same for a reason. I don't want every DPS class to play the same way. It's up to the devs to find ways to balance what each class is bringing to the raid, but just because hunters can do x and y doesn't mean RKs should do x and y too. Because RKs can do x and z instead, and that's the whole point of having different classes. Some fights will have mechanics that favor specific classes at some points. It doesn't mean the fights are impossible without that class. It just means they're favored, so they get to be a little more effective for a single raid boss. It's okay.

Originally Posted by Bradegor

<snip> lots of words <snip>

If you want to see the post I'm quoting, go look at post #69!

Bradegor, you do like to roll out your arguments but you sometimes wander away from the clear path of logic and numbers (which I know that you can do very well if you want to ) You tend to insert what I'd call sentimental (fire used to be bad but now it isn't, so there!), emotional (fire *should* be better than lightning) or assumptional (fire will do worse without iEoF burst) arguments into otherwise rational and well though out texts.

I'll sum up what you said in bullet form (much of which I agree with) but strip away what I'd attribute to assumptions:

• Fire is the sustained DPS line: DPS[Fire] > DPS[Lightning]
• Lightning is the mobile DPS line: Try doing decent DPS with fire while moving!
• Lightning pays for its mobility by doing less DPS.

There! I think you cannot fault that summary I wish we could add this bullet as well, but I don't feel I can do that and still feel truthful:

• Lightnig is the high-survivability DPS line.

Now, what I don't agree with is your claim that fire should be better than lightning in raids. That's an emotional argument, i.e. you want fire to be better. In the objective world I would put it like this: Fire and lightning should be equally viable for raids in general and only the specifics of the fight should dictate which one is best.

Just as Hunters and Champs can trait Blue, Red or Yellow to suit a particular trash pull or boss fight and role so can Rune-Keepers. Why disqualify one trait line from raids? You yourself have been an adamant arguer for the cause of healing Rune-Keepers, why fail your own class now by advocating one DPS line before the other in a raid situation? Should Fire and Lightning be equally good in all situations? NO!

I cannot understand this hook-up on burst. (From here-on we go into assumption territory) If we can get a flat 1.7k DPS at all times, even on newly spawned adds, then we'd be able to push out 17k in 10 seconds... Wasn't that what you wanted? No need to "burst" if the flat rate is high enough and stable enough

Originally Posted by Bradegor

I really want to see the whole picture, let´s hope ZC puts soon the diary in. But things look bad for Fire if there won´t be burst. We all can agree that Fire was a bit boring and too much FR spamming, but at least was tailored for DPS in raids.

<snip> Without iEoF is totally not possible you can do 17k dmg in less than 8 seconds. Period. We dont have to be hunters to be able to do it.

This is where I feel your entire post breaks down: First you say "I want to see the whole picture so I can see what's going on", then you say "we're broken without iEoF burst". Look at those two paragraphs (why, you can even look at the first two sentences in the first paragraph) for a minute tell me there wasn't a brain slip-up somewhere in there. How can you know we'll be broken ... if you can't see the whole picture?

Originally Posted by Raven-EU

If you want to see the post I'm quoting, go look at post #69!

Bradegor, you do like to roll out your arguments but you sometimes wander away from the clear path of logic and numbers (which I know that you can do very well if you want to ) You tend to insert what I'd call sentimental (fire used to be bad but now it isn't, so there!), emotional (fire *should* be better than lightning) or assumptional (fire will do worse without iEoF burst) arguments into otherwise rational and well though out texts.

Well, i´m spaniard. I sometimes go emotional, i hope you forgive it, hot blood run through my veins .

I'll sum up what you said in bullet form (much of which I agree with) but strip away what I'd attribute to assumptions:
[LIST][*]Fire is the sustained DPS line: DPS[Fire] > DPS[Lightning][*]Lightning is the mobile DPS line: Try doing decent DPS with fire while moving![*]Lightning pays for its mobility by doing less DPS.

There! I think you cannot fault that summary I wish we could add this bullet as well, but I don't feel I can do that and still feel truthful:
[*]Lightnig is the high-survivability DPS line.

Now, what I don't agree with is your claim that fire should be better than lightning in raids. That's an emotional argument, i.e. you want fire to be better. In the objective world I would put it like this: Fire and lightning should be equally viable for raids in general and only the specifics of the fight should dictate which one is best.

Well, it´s not an emotional argument. Until RoI raiding i used Lightning so i´m actually more used to Lightning than Fire. I will use what is best, simple and clear. The thing is, Fire starts with a BIG disadvantage over Lightning: mobility and burst, while Lightning disadvantages (range and aggro/power) can be worked out much better. Lightning works great in all content but raiding, while Fire only works on raiding. If we assume Lightning would be as good as Fire ... why would we care about buying Fire sets and doing Fire runestones? Much cheaper and better to just get Lightning.

I don´t care where, but logic says there should be a place where Fire is better for Lightning: in raids, solo or PvMP; and same about Lightning. Right now Lightning excels at soloing and PvMP, ... if Lightning gets as good as Fire on raiding ... well, i´m sure you got it.

If you prefer for me to saying so: Fire "SHOULD" be better than Lightning in some kind of content. It wasn´t before RoI and we all knew it. We didn´t care much, but right now i do. We have made our Fire sets if we wantint to raid, we all have got our rare-as-hell 1st agers and made them Fire, etc etc. It´s ok to back up to old times, the only "but" is that hunters, who right now seem to parse as good as us in Fire, would parse higher than us if we were "forced" to use Lightning. And this goes again against my idea of balance.

Just as Hunters and Champs can trait Blue, Red or Yellow to suit a particular trash pull or boss fight and role so can Rune-Keepers. Why disqualify one trait line from raids? You yourself have been an adamant arguer for the cause of healing Rune-Keepers, why fail your own class now by advocating one DPS line before the other in a raid situation? Should Fire and Lightning be equally good in all situations? NO!

There is a BIG difference. I have a champ character i love play with. He sometimes has to trait Red, sometimes he traits Yellow. In both cases, i use the same LI. The damage output i lose isn´t that important from sets, and clearly not on the LI. RKs have this issue. Plus, my champ doesn´t have any disadvantage when soloing/PvPing in Red or Yellow, while Fire does. There are different situations. Unfortunatly for us RKs, the LI is VERY important for doing Fire/Lightning, so this matters. Not counting about we need yet another LI for healing, that is...

I cannot understand this hook-up on burst. (From here-on we go into assumption territory) If we can get a flat 1.7k DPS at all times, even on newly spawned adds, then we'd be able to push out 17k in 10 seconds... Wasn't that what you wanted? No need to "burst" if the flat rate is high enough and stable enough

This is true, and that´s why i said i was waiting to see the whole picture. If ZC gives me ways of doing 17k in 8 seconds using Fire ( or Lightning or whatever will be called the RK raid DPS traits :P), then i will be glad. The thing is, from what i heard this doesn´t look good for Fire and burst, i doubt we will be able to do it. Still, i will wait for official page.

This is where I feel your entire post breaks down: First you say "I want to see the whole picture so I can see what's going on", then you say "we're broken without iEoF burst". Look at those two paragraphs (why, you can even look at the first two sentences in the first paragraph) for a minute tell me there wasn't a brain slip-up somewhere in there. How can you know we'll be broken ... if you can't see the whole picture?

Yeah, i should have slipped "iEoF" out. I should have said "We´re broken without Fire burst", or simply "without burst". As i said, if ZC gives us any kind of tool to cope with burst damage, the iEoF nerf will be welcomed.

But again, this is not what i heard, some posters even have written the Fire new implements and all of them go towards more steady damage. Which can be included into the lack of CV bonus, btw. Hard to say yet until we see all the changes. What i know for sure is that EVERY DPS class (burglars, hunters, champions, RKs up to day) can steady and burst DPS on their raiding setups, and that if one takes it away, then there will be balance problems. As i said, dots look pretty but on many fights you can´t wait for them all to tick away ...

I´m totally against loss of burst damage on Fire RKs, but i´m fine on iEoF nerf if this is balanced out´and another form of burst damage skill comes in. I believe i have already posted this out somewhere, haven´t i?

Originally Posted by Raven-EU

I cannot understand this hook-up on burst. (From here-on we go into assumption territory) If we can get a flat 1.7k DPS at all times, even on newly spawned adds, then we'd be able to push out 17k in 10 seconds... Wasn't that what you wanted? No need to "burst" if the flat rate is high enough and stable

The problem with the logic in this statement is that, as Ruintheliel stated earlier, your DPS would be starting fresh on a new target with no pre-existing dots, etc. The 1.7k DPS anyone refers to is overall DPS, not on a single target -it's the overall damage done in the encounter divided by the time that has lapsed. I would be surprised if a player's DPS didnt vary with each target. So, come Update 6, a fire RK may not be able to down an eludhan traited fire with no burst ability. Using lightning in fire spec isn't that effective and likely won't be enough to down them either. So, RKs will need to be traiting lightning for the burst DPS but will be less effective in sustained DPS in that same encounter.

Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

Smouldering Wrath damage increased, duration reduced to 6s.
Scathing Retort re-worked, grants bonuses based on what DoT's are burning on the foe.
Mystifying Flame an instant cast with a shorter duration/cooldown and higher damage.
Improved Essay of Flame makes a single skill induction-less.
And more!

Well, it would seem that we're getting burst damage through short, potent DoTs, which is actually an improvement on what we have now.

But what do you mean by Scathing Retort, ZC?

Originally Posted by PerfectApproach

Malf is my only level-cap toon, and it has always ever been my only level-cap toon. I have only ever rolled 1 alt, and he's still at 41.

This is the most shocking thing I read. I thought you'd never get out of the Lone Lands. Also, I'm pretty sure you were with me for the ivar fights in OD. Could be wrong though.

Originally Posted by Sizzling

The problem with the logic in this statement is that, as Ruintheliel stated earlier, your DPS would be starting fresh on a new target with no pre-existing dots, etc. The 1.7k DPS anyone refers to is overall DPS, not on a single target -it's the overall damage done in the encounter divided by the time that has lapsed. I would be surprised if a player's DPS didnt vary with each target. So, come Update 6, a fire RK may not be able to down an eludhan traited fire with no burst ability. Using lightning in fire spec isn't that effective and likely won't be enough to down them either. So, RKs will need to be traiting lightning for the burst DPS but will be less effective in sustained DPS in that same encounter.

I do know what an "over time average" is, what statistical properties I can attach to it and why it's utterly stupid to look at it in any fight shorter than 10 seconds. Using the term DPS in that context was probably not very pedagogical of me.

I'll try to explain again (while avoiding the DPS trap): If we, after the update, can get deal 17k+ damage in 10 seconds or less on a newly spawned add by using some sequencing of skills (MF + iEoF + EoF + SmW comes to mind) wouldn't that satisfy the need for "burst" without having to resort to 5 seconds of induction-less play?

In fact, it's OK if the average damage output (DPS) for that sequence is lower (in this case 1.7k) than the overall damage average (1.8k-2k?) as long as the total damage of that sequence is sufficient.

That is the hook-up I'm referring to: Not being able to think outside the RoI-iEoF-box. Sure we've not seen all the changes so we may very well be paddling up the brown river, but at least I'm trying to find solutions within the framework we're being offered (in tantalizing microscopic hints) rather than explaining why the current (IMNSHO broken) toolset will no longer work.

Originally Posted by Raven-EU

I do know what an "over time average" is, what statistical properties I can attach to it and why it's utterly stupid to look at it in any fight shorter than 10 seconds. Using the term DPS in that context was probably not very pedagogical of me.

I'll try to explain again (while avoiding the DPS trap): If we, after the update, can get deal 17k+ damage in 10 seconds or less on a newly spawned add by using some sequencing of skills (MF + iEoF + EoF + SmW comes to mind) wouldn't that satisfy the need for "burst" without having to resort to 5 seconds of induction-less play?

In fact, it's OK if the average damage output (DPS) for that sequence is lower (in this case 1.7k) than the overall damage average (1.8k-2k?) as long as the total damage of that sequence is sufficient.

That is the hook-up I'm referring to: Not being able to think outside the RoI-iEoF-box. Sure we've not seen all the changes so we may very well be paddling up the brown river, but at least I'm trying to find solutions within the framework we're being offered (in tantalizing microscopic hints) rather than explaining why the current (IMNSHO broken) toolset will no longer work.

Indeed. If we´re able to get some kind of burst coming from any kind of skill or mix of them, then we won´t miss much iEoF. Also, we have to keep our DPS in sustained fights for not missing it either. Up to day, iEoF was an important part of the Fire RK DPS, burst or not. No change that ZC has showed to us on this peak up promises that we will get same burst or sustained DPS. Time will tell.

I really wish we could just get one more Fire skill to add into the rotation, to spam it in conjunction with FR. We could even give FR some short CD, and same about that new skill, to "force" us to rotate, or just simply give that new skill some CD but give him a little more DPS than FR so it would be worthy to stop spamming FR. We wouldn´t have to get worried about the DPS increase as it would be lowered by the iEoF nerf, so maybe it would balance.

Dunno, just offering solutions. I can say that we all most agree that we dont want to lose anything which Fire has brought to us in RoI for raiding.

Originally Posted by Bradegor

Well, i´m spaniard. I sometimes go emotional, i hope you forgive it, hot blood run through my veins .

Be as passionate as you want as long as you keep most of your arguments logical

Yeah, the LI's are a problem as we're more or less forced to have 3 main LIs if we want to perform at max for all trait lines. I still don't agree that we should have only one "raid DPS line". Both yellow and red should be viable as "raid DPS lines". In fact, it's good that you bring up the LIs. Why should Rune-Keepers who favour lightning be excluded from raiding?

If I were a developer I'd make sure that both DPS lines were viable in both solo and raid context. I wouldn't cut away a third of a class from solo play and a third for those who do raid, I'd make sure that both side bring something interesting to the table in either situation. If either side is lacking, then it's in need of a buff! Make then equally viable so that it becomes a personal choice rather than a forced option. You say tomato, I say tomato (hmmm... doesn't work well in text form).

B.t.w. you should try using Fire when soloing! Most stuff is charcoal before it even reach you Seriously! Fire is pretty darn awesome for solo play. Although; I usually find that the fast spiky DPS from lightning works better on low-morale trash. Moors... well... fire can't be good everywhere!