Thread: What happened to the Noldor?

They were the principal forgers and ring-makers in Middle Earth until Sauron destroyed Eregion, as I understand it. Did all of the survivors take ships to the West?

I'm working on the story for my RK Jeweler, and don't want to tread on Tolkein's toes too often. ;-) Thanks!

In the Third Age, the Noldor in Middle-earth dwindled, and by the end of the Third Age the only big communities of Noldor remaining in Middle-earth were in Rivendell and Lindon. Their further fate of fading utterly from the World was shared by all Elves (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noldor).

Many of them took refuge in Imladris. Some went into the west. Imladris in the 3rd age is the last refuge of the Noldor. Lothlorien is the refuge of the Sindar and the survivors of Doriath (excepting Galadriel).

Originally Posted by OldLadyGamer

They were the principal forgers and ring-makers in Middle Earth until Sauron destroyed Eregion, as I understand it. Did all of the survivors take ships to the West?

No, not all of them. In The Silmarillion, 'Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age', it states:

As soon as Sauron set the One Ring upon his finger [the Elves] were aware of him, and they knew him, and perceived that the would be master of them, and all that they wrought. Then in anger and fear they took off their rings. But the, finding that he was betrayed and that the Elves were not deceived, was filled with wrath, and came against them with open war. Elven-smiths could not have attained to their making without his lore and counsel. But the Elves fled from him; and three of their rings they saved, and bore them away, and hid them.

It further states:

From that time war never ceased between Sauron andthe Elves; and Eregion was laid to waste, and Celebrimbor slain, and the doors of Moria were shut. In that time the stronghold and refuge of Imladris, that Men called Rivendell, was found by Elrond Half-elven; and long it endured.

While it does not state so explicitly, we can surmise that some of the Elves of Eregion, who were principally Noldor, took refuge in Imladris. From the accounts in The Lord of the Rings we know that there were Noldor who dwelt in Imladris, e.g., Gildor Inglorian.

The same chapter in The Silmarillion states of the period during which Sauron made war upon the Elves:

Thus the Black Years began, which the Elves call the Day of Flight. In that time many of the Elves of Middle-earth fled to Lindon and thence over the seas never to return; and many were destroyed by Sauron and his servants. But in Lindon Gil-galad still maintained his power, and Sauron dared not as yet to pass the Mountains of Ered Luin nor assail the Havens; and Gil-galad was aided by the Númenoreans.

So, yes, we know that many of the Elves, presumably including Noldor from Eregion, went to the Havens to Sail West. Did some of them also stay in Lindon? That's a very real possibility, although it is not stated here explicitly. We do know, however, that there were Noldor who settled in Lindon following the War of Wrath at the end of the First Age when Beleriand went under the wave. At least some of these, obviously, went with Celebrimbor to establish Eregion.

According to an account published in Unfinished Tales, 'The History of Galadriel and Celeborn', some of the Noldor from Eregion took refuge in Lothlórien:

But in the meantime the power of Galadriel and Celeborn had grown, and Galadriel, assisted in this by her friendship with the Dwarves of Moria, had come into contact with the Nandorin realm of Lórinand on the other side of the Misty Mountains. This was peopled by those Elves who forsook the Great Journey of the Eldar from Cuiviénen and settled in the woods of the Vale of Anduin; and it extended into the forests on both sides of the Great River, including the region where afterwards was Dol Guldur…but many Sindar and Noldor came to dwell among them, and their ‘Sindarizing’ under the impact of Beleriandic culture began.

Please know that the material published in Unfinished Tales was not brought to its final form during Professor Tolkien's lifetime, but was published posthumously by his son and executor of his literary estate, Christopher Tolkien. This is true also, of course, of the material in The Silmarillion but Christopher Tolkien gives us especial warning about the material found in 'The History of Galadriel and Celeborn'.

In summary, at the time of the War of the Ring there were Noldor living in Lindon, Imladris, and Lothlórien. Presumably these three communities included those who had once lived in Eregion.

Thank y'all so much. :-)

there are still some Noldor in Middle-earth in the Third Age but few. the Elves that Frodo and sam meet in the Shire were, in fact, a group of Noldor.

But, in fact, most of the Noldor were already wiped out in the First Age in the Wars with Morgoth and the curse and treachery brought about by the Silmarrils. some people postulate that the Valar waited so long to send the Host of Valinor because they were bound to wait until the principle characters in the rebellion were all dead. Surviving Noldor were in Lindon and Hollin in the second age, survivors went to Imladris or Lindon or sailed to the West. Infact, elves sailing to the West would be Noldor or Sindar. the Sylvan elves did not, until perhaps after the destruction of the One Ring.


( in-game, we meet a few, you meet Gildor in the North Downs. And if you listen closely to the conversation of the elves in Ost Galadh, you learn that Roddeleth, the hot-headed elf chosen to lead the Malledhrim, is Noldor.)

Originally Posted by Galadh

some people postulate that the Valar waited so long to send the Host of Valinor because they were bound to wait until the principle characters in the rebellion were all dead

That's an interesting idea that I had not considered before, though if that were true, wouldn't they have at least waited until Maedhros and Maglor, the two surviving sons of Feanor, dead? And perhaps Galadriel herself?

Originally Posted by oldbadgerbrock

We do know, however, that there were Noldor who settled in Lindon following the War of Wrath

True, but after the War of the Last Alliance and Gil-galad's death in particular, the place went downhill fast with a great many Elves leaving. As a realm, it effectively ceased to exist.

Originally Posted by Galadh

( in-game, we meet a few, you meet Gildor in the North Downs. And if you listen closely to the conversation of the elves in Ost Galadh, you learn that Roddeleth, the hot-headed elf chosen to lead the Malledhrim, is Noldor.)

Not to mention Galadriel and Glorfindel.

I believe the Doom of Mandos was that the Noldor would lose all that they had gained, that the works of their hands should perish. After the Nirnaeth, the fall of Doriath (though that is not a Noldorin realm, its fall was bound up in the Oath of Feanor), the fall of both Nargothrond and Gondolin, the elves had indeed lost everything they had gained and more. I've often wondered how differently things might have turned out had Turgon and Finrod heeded the advice of Ulmo. And I'm not sure you can judge Galadriel as being like the sons of Feanor; while she did indeed leave without the blessing of the Valar, she did not participate in the kinslaying as best we can tell, nor did Finrod or her other brothers. Of course, by the time Galadriel does in fact depart, she has lost almost everything she gained anyway, save memories.

The Valar tarried until the appointed time - that being the time when Earendil, with the aid of a Silmaril to find his way through the Shadowed Seas to Valinor, came to ask pardon and deliverance for both men and elves. There is no need to read further into it.

Save perhaps the ride of the Rohirrim at Pelennor Fields, the story of the rise and fall of Gondolin captivated my imagination like no other story of fiction ever has. It caught my eye even in the short mention it has in The Hobbit and I wondered what Gondolin was, why it was so important and what had happened to it. I've seen two renderings of it by painting and both took my breath away; one was by Ted Naismith and I forget who made the other.

Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

As a realm, it effectively ceased to exist.

Can you provide textural support for that assertion?

Certainly Mithlond ('Grey Haven'), a port city in Lindon that was ruled by Círdan the Shipwright continued to exist. Unless the venerable Círdan, who was a member of the White Council, was harvesting raw materials (such as lumber, etc.) and building the ships by himself there must have others.

At the very least we know that Galdor dwelled at the Havens. He stated during the Council of Elrond:

What power still remains lies with us, here in Imladris, or with Círdan at the Havens, or in Lórien.

This implies that a power, however diminished, still existed in Mithlond. We know, too, that a palantír was kept in the tallest tower in the Emyn Beraid. There were certainly Elves dwelling there. Galdor also stated during the Council:

Only the waning might of Gondor stands now between him and a march in power along the coasts into the North; and if he comes, assailing the White Towers and the Havens, hereafter the Elves may have no escape from the lengthening shadows of Middle-earth.

Tolkien wrote to Richard Jeffery in December 1972 ('345', The Letters of J.R.R Tolkien):

It may be noted that at the end of the Third Age there were prob. more people (Men) that knew Q., or spoke S., then there were Elves who did either! Though dwindling, the population of Minas Tirith and its fiefs must have been much greater than Lindon, Rivendell, and Lórien.+

+The Silvan Elves of Thranduil's realm did not speak S., but a related language or dialect.

So although the number of Elves in Middle-earth had dwindled, these realms were still populated.

Originally Posted by oldbadgerbrock

Can you provide textural support for that assertion?

The kingship lapsed when Gil-galad died, and he was not succeeded by anyone. There were no longer enough Elves left there to call it a kingdom, it was so reduced - not just by the heavy casualties in the war, but because a great many other Elves left after it. So not really a realm any more, powerful and populated by many Elves, but just a place where Elves still lived, full of sad reminders of a greater past. You'll note I said effectively, before.

Certainly Mithlond ('Grey Haven'), a port city in Lindon that was ruled by Círdan the Shipwright continued to exist. Unless the venerable Círdan, who was a member of the White Council, was harvesting raw materials (such as lumber, etc.) and building the ships by himself there must have others.

It doesn't take that many people to build a ship, and not that many ships were called for.

Yes, but even well into the Third Age, Lindon wasn't a ghost town with just a few elves. If it were, it never would have been a suitable harbor for the Gondorian navy to land at. We're not talking the massive number of Elves that were mustered to fight at the end of the Second Age obviously, but the impression I got wasn't that it was Gondor plus a dozen Noldor and Sindar that went up to meet the Witch King at Fornost, but the whole host of who remained on the hither shores.

/shrug

It doesn't matter a ton one way or another, I just find that it's likely that they had plenty of people around, we just don't hear a ton about them because the Elves gradually withdrew from all other affairs as the Age went on. Part of that is due to deaths, part due to the leaving of so many, but given the number of Elves remaining in Mirkwood and Lorien I think it's way overstating the case to say Lindon didn't have many left.

Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

The kingship lapsed when Gil-galad died, and he was not succeeded by anyone. There were no longer enough Elves left there to call it a kingdom...

If you define a realm as a kingdom with a monarch as sovereign, you are correct, Lindon was no longer a realm/kingdom. However, if you use realm to mean a region, Lindon certainly was a realm/region.

In the First Age Círdan was Lord of the Falas, a vassal to Thingol of Doriath, and allies with Finrod Felagund of Nargothrond. With the sinking of Beleriand at the end of the First Age Círdan led the Sindar to Lindon where he ruled the southern portion, Harlindon. He was an ally to the Númenóreans and a vassal to Gil-galad, who ruled from Forlindon. When Gil-galad was slain during the War of the Last Alliance Círdan became the ruler of Lindon. He was an ally to the Dúnedain, aiding them in their wars against the Witch King of Arnor. Yes, the population of Lindon was greatly diminished by the end of the Third Age, but the realm (region) had not ceased to exist.

Originally Posted by oldbadgerbrock

If you define a realm as a kingdom with a monarch as sovereign, you are correct, Lindon was no longer a realm/kingdom.

That's what a realm is - not a region. Not necessarily with a monarch, but with some equivalent leadership. That had certainly gone. When Gil-galad was killed it ripped the heart out of the place, for good. He'd founded it, in a strong sense he was Lindon. With a much reduced population (much of the place was simply left to go back to nature, and the population concentrated around the coast) Cirdan wasn't lord of all that much. Whereas once the Elves of Lindon had defied Sauron's full strength (if barely), in the Third Age they couldn't prevent the Northern Dunedain from being steadily ground down and eventually overrun by Angmar.

And again, I said that Lindon had effectively ceased to exist as a realm. Not that it had simply disappeared, but that it had been reduced to the point where it couldn't project any power in the region.

Noldor were few to begin with after the War of Wrath. We are relatively safe to say that the amount of what people think when they say Noldor - the old ones who had been in the West - are even fewer in number. Many of their descendants born in Middle-earth have likely "Sindarinized" - though it is worth to note that Sindar themselves - as in, "Dark Elves" who had lived in Beleriand (Falas, Doriath and the Noldor realms) were not likely much more numerous. So, when we have very few people to start with, and most of them have left or died, we end up with a really small amount of people (to quote my old physics lecturer, "when you take a really small number and multiply it with a really really small number, you end up with a number so ridiculously small that you can safely ignore it").

I understand that - at least in some phase of the game development - it was specified that all player characters are Wood Elves, but that hasn't really been repeated much, and it never stopped people roleplaying Noldor or Sindar anyway. In any case, it is a reasonable assumption that any Elf you see is a Wood Elf of Eldarin origin*. Avari were mostly left into very far east - those who later migrated westward would most likely have been assimilated to the local populations. Similarly Noldor were most likely very much Sindarinized (except where rallying around a figure of note, such as Elrond, Celebrimbor or Gil-Galad - Galadriel likely had some of her household with her, as well). The Sindar themselves (the Third Kindred from Beleriand) were very few in number during the Third Age, though admittedly, most of the Elves still in Middle-earth are their distant relatives. (Most likely of Nandorin origin: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nandor_%28Middle-earth%29)

*) Of course, as our player characters are mostly heroes, and considering that the Rule of Cool is very strong in Middle-earth, it might be that those Elves of great ancestry who have not sailed yet still have some purpose to stay. Finally, while we do not see young Elves in the books, we know that Elves had not stopped reproducing (for example, the mithril shirt made for an Elf-prince that was part of Smaug's hoard), and as such, there might be an amount of Elves with Noldorin heritage or at least formerly Noldor lord around. (For example, many inhabitants of Gondolin were not Noldor - a whole lot of them were of Sindar. Eregion, as well, might be similar. Their culture might be still distinctly Noldor due to Celebrimbor's influence, even if most of the inhabitants were not and likely did not even know how to speak Quenya (which is mostly a ritual language for the Exiles).

Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

When Gil-galad was killed it ripped the heart out of the place, for good.

There was enough heart left in Lindon in the Third Age to support the Dúnedain of the North in their efforts against the Witch King of Angmar:

Arveleg son of Argeleb, with the help of Cardolan and Lindon, drove back his enemies from the [Weather] Hills...

Araphor son of Arveleg was not yet full-grown, but he was valiant, and with aid from Círdan he repelled the enemy from Fornost and the North Downs...

It is said that Angmar was for a time subdued by the Elvenfolk coming from Lindon; and from Rivendell, for Elrond brought help over the Mountains out of Lórien....

When Círdan heard from Aranarthson of Arvedui of the king's flight to the north, he at once sent a ship to Forochel to seek for him.

Source: Tolkien, J.R.R. 'Appendix A, I (iii)'. The Lord of the Rings.

After Eärnur's fleet from Gondor finally arrived in Lindon they were able to defeat the Witchking at Fornost and drive him from the North.

Granted, by the end of the Third Age the Elves on the whole had diminished, but Lindon no more so than Rivendell or Lórien despite not being protected by one of the Three. Círdan had given Narya to Gandalf when he arrived in approximately III 1000.

Originally Posted by oldbadgerbrock

There was enough heart left in Lindon in the Third Age to support the Dúnedain of the North in their efforts against the Witch King of Angmar

But not enough manpower (elfpower? ) to help the Dunedain do anything more than fend off Angmar, which was the point; they could only help delay the inevitable. It took that army from Gondor to wipe Angmar off the map.

And with no Ring to help stave off the weariness of the world, more Elves would have left the Havens and gone into the West than would have left Rivendell or Lorien.