Thread: Helm's Deep?

Originally Posted by DCameron

Not sure what you mean here, but they do get elf archer reinforcements (not sure how many, about 100?) and Aragorn is there as well!?

Not true. That was the movie version. In the Trilogy, the only elf was Legolas who wished they had a hundred archers of Mirkwood with them.

I hope Helms deep will be session play as a defender
+ Large scale

Originally Posted by Eulrich

There also were no elves in Bree when Aragorn met the Hobbits.

?

There were exactly four Hobbits in Rivendell,

??

and only those dwarfs who accompanied Gloin and Gimli from Erebor.

???

In Lorien, also, there were only four Hobbits, one dwarf and two men.

...
Proofs on all these things pls

Originally Posted by angrolas

True, but it is the same exact thing with the Fords of Isen. The only people that faught at that battle were the Rohirrim (And the uruk-hai, of course). There weren't any elves, dwarves, or hobbits fighting there, but Turbine still put in the fight, and allowed everyone to participate

And again proofs pls

Originally Posted by ThistleRose3

Considering that only a small percentage of the player base PvP having one of the most iconic battles in the game limited to PvP would be a very bad idea. Turbine has always said that you will not be forced to PvP and this idea is akin to forcing players to PvP if they want to enjoy important parts of the book.

Since the battle is so important I would like Turbine to give us a lot of ways of being part of it. Say the epic book would be us helping the people get to Helms Deep and prepare for the battle ending in one or two skirmishes taking place in different locations. Then have 3 and 6 man instances to give another view of the battle and maybe even a raid that would require us to kill some Uruk-hai leaders or prevent one group of dunlanders from making it to the main fight. They could even add a PvP area but making to PvP only would be a real negative for the majority of the player base.

If the PvP were worth playing a lot more people would do it. Right now (and for the past 3 years) PvP has been a joke, but still I would say more than 75% of the existing playerbase has played for more than one hour in the moors on a toon. Might even be more.

Just because people arent grinding it doesnt mean it isnt a possible choice. It weill more than likely end up being a sesion play then a skirmish. That is what makes the most sense. Not having it as something repeatable would be a waste, even though the automated boredom of a skirmish would be an injustice Turbine has shown time and time again the lack of effort into making these epic encounters something special by introducing PvP encounters in them. Where the battles and outcomes are known but can still be given a dynamic perspective due to player intelligence and changes rather than an Ai one.

Trying to remember, but one of the interviews (think it was IGN or Ten Ton Hammers, might be somewhere else) for RoR with the Game Director was mentioning Helms Deep as coming after initial RoR release similar to how we got the Isengard instances after RoR launch. They rattle on about how they have had to use technical features off FPS games to be able to get it to throw 10,000 orcs at the players. Fingers crossed they manage it!

Well, that sounds very much like we're going to be in the fight...maybe as a session but a raid does make more sense. And yes it breaks the story but then again spanking Saruman isn't exactly holding to lore is it, and don't get me started on the whole rock tosser debate? Sounds as though with moves like this Turbine are pretty much on a "loosely based on" LOTR now with lore a just flimsy framework.

Originally Posted by DCameron

Not sure what you mean here, but they do get elf archer reinforcements (not sure how many, about 100?) and Aragorn is there as well!?

As previously stated, Haldir and the elves from Lothlorien were not in the books. What about Aragorn though? He isn't an elf or a dwarf....

If we're going to start getting lore specific, Helm's Deep was the whole valley, not just the keep. So Helm's Deep I assume will be a whole map in the game. The keep was the Hornburg. It had another name but I am not going to look it up in the book or google it I will leave that to the more ambitious. But the keep was basically the door to the caves behind it.

The way it is described in the books from what I remember is that the valley was horseshoed around by mountains and the Deeping Wall was built across the front with the Hornburg/keep built up against one of the side walls of the hills where the caves were exposed.

Tolkein made a sketch of it but I dont think it is in any of the books. But I am sure Turbine has access to it.

Although the pictures by Tolkien have to be handled carefully, as he himself said that some do not look like the places as he described them later in the final versions of the book. Isengart is one example... some of Tolkien's scatches look much more men-built then his discription suggests. And some of his drawings of Minas Tirith lack the characteristical stone-pillar.

Originally Posted by Wanderv

?

??

???

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Proofs on all these things pls

Read the books. It's all in there. The films are notorious for not following the lore. The inclusion of Elven reinforcements at Helm's Deep, for example, was created by the writers/director for the film and was not part of the book.

(Eulrich is wrong on one count, however - there were actually five hobbits in Rivendell during the Council of Elrond. Bilbo was there, too.)

As to Helm's Deep, I'm hoping it will be represented in a handful of ways. A multipart instance as part of the epic line, a la the Fords of Isen, would really be nice (although I hope they do a better job than with the Fords). I'm expecting that Session Play is a probability as well, although I'd really like to take Learael out on the Deeping Wall during the battle... The idea of thousands of orcs and uruks assailing the wall, pushing down siege ladders, and fighting alongside Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli, & Co., is just too mouth-watering for me to think that Turbine will restrict Helm's Deep to Session Play alone.

In terms of repeatable instances, I'd expect them to take full advantage of one of the most famous locations from the books/films. I wouldn't be surprised to see an entire instance cluster surrounding this one battle. I'm not sure how I would feel about Helm's Deep becoming a rinse/repeat set of instances as we've seen in the past, though. The nature of those sorts of instances, I think, would detract from the epic feeling and grandeur of one of the most iconic locations and events that we'll ever see in LOTRO. As much as I want to take part in the battle, the idea of running it over and over again for tokens for an armor set just wouldn't feel right.

Oh, and I'd be very, very surprised to see Helm's Deep released as part of this expansion. It took us Shadows of Angmar, Mines of Moria, Siege of Mirkwood, and Rise of Isengard just to get close to the end of Fellowship. Helm's Deep occurs near the end of Two Towers, so I'd expect another expansion or two before we get to see Helm's Deep. I'd love for them to throw in the Lonely Mountain/Dale/Esgaroth as a Hobbit tie-in, but maybe that's asking for a little too much. We'll just have to wait and see.

Just my opinion.

ok I'm going to throw in my 2 cents worth, just my opinion so try not to take it the wrong way

I really think Turbine are missing a trick here by not tying in the release of The Hobbit film in November with this game. It would have been really good publicity for the game and could have brought in a lot new players. I know its a seperate book, but they could of made it a add-on prequel to the game. Maybe they don't have the rights to The Hobbit book, which is a pity.

On the subject of the lore of the game and helms deep, I noticed a lot of the quests in this game, such as brigadiers near Bree, and Goblins near the Shire, afaik were not part of any of the books, so I'm sure Turbine will be able to create some sub-plots such as these for ppl to play in Helms Deep. Just think of the re-taking of weather top quest, that wasn't in the books was it?

Oh and the Elfs in the film and not the book, I know they looked good in the film, but Peter Jackson kinda changed the whole elf/man relationship dynamic there, in the books I got the impression they were kinda of seperate/distant with each other, but that scene in the film kinda made them out to be almost friends.

Originally Posted by Arannir

Although the pictures by Tolkien have to be handled carefully, as he himself said that some do not look like the places as he described them later in the final versions of the book. Isengart is one example... some of Tolkien's scatches look much more men-built then his discription suggests. And some of his drawings of Minas Tirith lack the characteristical stone-pillar.

True, but basically the valley was closed off by the Dike in the front, the first line of defense , which is overun farily easily, es then the deeping wall which is scaled by hundreds of ladders, But was being held fairly well until the explosion. Finally the hornburg and the caves where Aragorn and Theodin mount up and are followed by the remaining forces on foot. No specific number as to how many Rohirrim were left but I would say hundreds, even though the movie suggests a handful but they were all mounted. So once the wall fell ist was actually a two prong fight, the keep proper as well as the cave entrances the keep didnt fully block or orcs had gained access to. But the counter attack was simultaneous which assumes they were sepeate. King and keep forces down the causeway all the way to the dike, and the cave defenders into the deep through the hole in the deeping wall.

There were also Dunlending men attacking with the orcs as well as trees fighting the attackers flank. So it wasnt just orcs and it wasnt just gandalf showing up with the 1000 riders. Although just the sight of Gandalf was enough to make the men give up and they were mostly captured, (later released) the orcs turned and ran and the trees basically finished them off.

All this stuff starts getting pretty specific, just depends on how detailed turbine wants to get. I am sure they will use creative license as they have, but now we are getting into some of the most well known parts of the story so I have to think the poetic license needs to be reigned in some.

Originally Posted by DCameron

ok I'm going to throw in my 2 cents worth, just my opinion so try not to take it the wrong way

I really think Turbine are missing a trick here by not tying in the release of The Hobbit film in November with this game. It would have been really good publicity for the game and could have brought in a lot new players. I know its a seperate book, but they could of made it a add-on prequel to the game. Maybe they don't have the rights to The Hobbit book, which is a pity.

On the subject of the lore of the game and helms deep, I noticed a lot of the quests in this game, such as brigadiers near Bree, and Goblins near the Shire, afaik were not part of any of the books, so I'm sure Turbine will be able to create some sub-plots such as these for ppl to play in Helms Deep. Just think of the re-taking of weather top quest, that wasn't in the books was it?

Oh and the Elfs in the film and not the book, I know they looked good in the film, but Peter Jackson kinda changed the whole elf/man relationship dynamic there, in the books I got the impression they were kinda of seperate/distant with each other, but that scene in the film kinda made that out to be almost friends.

The Hobbit is going ot be in two parts. Thats why I think after Rohan we will actually get Dale, Erebor and the second Mirkwood expansion before we get Gondor. Even though the time line doesnt fit perfectly it is close enough maybe for them to justify. Dale and Erebor ad Anduin (Vales) are most associated with the Hobbit anyway, but they also hold major battles in the war for the ring, and they are much more MMO friendly as the specifics arent known, it would be safe to assume no hobbits were in them but without any specific claims there werent Turbine can safely try and stake a calim that players playing hobbits can be there.

Now this assumption is also based on another assumption that the second portion or Rohan which wil include Helms Deep, Edoras, and anything else they left out will be a free content update and not another stand alone expansion. So a few assumptions here. But with 2 parts that gives Turbine and WB an extra year to get areas of the Middle Earth closely associated with the Hobbit ready to be put into Lotro.

Idea! How bout a session play raid and put this far underused instance finder to work. Assign random players roles so maybe 2 healers, two dps, two cc, two tanks, two captains. This way it would be a group play, wouldn't break too much lore and wouldn't be turned to the endless grind known as raids. Raid's have there place, but let's not ruin an iconic battle like helm's deep. They could probably make a pvp zone outta this too somehow, but I don't know too much about the mechanics of that so I won't get into the topic. What do you guys think? Session play raid yes, no and why or why not.

ok, time for my opinion i guess, my best bet it will be the hornburg right where its supposed to be, and outside of it, there will be 2, maybe 3 main uruk-hai encampments, and odds are that most of the quests will be about destroying Uruk-Hai within them, it will be kind of like isen questing, a lot of killing, cutting off supplies, weakening the forces of the uruk-hai.

This should be a battle that can be replayed like a skirmish so that it can work from solo all the way up to raid size.
That way everyone is happy and it can play out like in the books.

This way the battle can be kept in the past and we can enter Helms deep and the refugee caves behind it at a safer time after the battle is over and do the touristy thing.

The race issue can be taken care of with some session play tech or some poetic licence like saying the players are masking their true selves behind a ranger half face cloth.

Most important is that we get to partcipate somehow.

as far as I remember they even taölked about 'tech' able to put 10k enemys on screen
for rendering massive scale battles like Helms Deep right before the RoI expansions ..

it didnt happened in RoI and now they start to talk about the exact same things,
again a year away from the actual release ...

newsflash: by looking at RoI we are essentially looking at the first part of the ones-planned
Riders of Rohan expansion ... this name was secured by Turbine in 2009 ...

all the content that is anounced now is probably already developed ... its strectched as far
as possible ... it doesnt cost money and it will feet the game until 2013 or so ...

I just remembered how they hooked me over a year ago with the anouncment of that new
massive scale tech ... I am not pleased by aqquiring my 50th mount skin or top tier in all
crafting profations ... I am looking for real aspects of gaming, that entertain and surprise me
and let me take part in latest developments in tech and gameplay ...

they just doing it again, putting the same used anouncment in place to keep you interested
over the next year ... not again please ...

greetings

Yeah... I admit it... mea culpa... there were five Hobbits in Rivendell.

What turbine should do is turn helms deep into a pvp battleground of sorts. Similar to Wintergrasp from WOW having creep players invade while the freeps would defend the Helms deep. I think that this would rock and has the potential if done right, to be a great addition to my beloved lotro.

Making Helm's Deep a PvMP zone or a raid is probably the worse thing Turbine could do. Seeing LOTRO is mainly a casual game, the majority of people don't raid. Additionally, the amount of people who want to PvMP is probably a lot lower than the amount who only want to PvE. Making Helm's a PvMP zone or a raid will alienate a LOT of people. Yes, it would be cool and everything, and I'm sure a lot of people will enjoy it. But one of the most iconic places from the books will be pretty much unavailable to a lot of players.

PvMP players deserve some love, definitely. But please don't spoil it for those that do not want to PvMP or raid.

Originally Posted by LeppardUK

Didn't one of the interviews that Turbine gave to the websites for RoR state that were working on the tech to get 10k orcs in the same place for Helm's Deep? I really hope they can pull it off without causing serious lag.

Can you give a link to that interview? It would be incredible if they could do such a thing. I didn't have much hope for any of the big battles, because I had assumed that they would consist of something like 4 or 5 easily-killed orcs attacking in 2 or 3 waves, then the battle is over. Yawn.

But 10,000 orcs? Are you kidding? To my knowledge, no MMO has ever even attempted such a thing.


Rip

you know, it will be handled like distant trees at the moment ... by imposters, billboards ...
2D planes that always face the camera on wich you draw a 2D pic ... (hence the FPS reference)

of course you will need neat tricks to create an immersive illusion this way, but if they
really want to do it, they could pull this off any time ...

Originally Posted by Rippentuck

Can you give a link to that interview? It would be incredible if they could do such a thing. I didn't have much hope for any of the big battles, because I had assumed that they would consist of something like 4 or 5 easily-killed orcs attacking in 2 or 3 waves, then the battle is over. Yawn.

But 10,000 orcs? Are you kidding? To my knowledge, no MMO has ever even attempted such a thing.


Rip

I read about it in the What we know about 2012! thread. It's apparently in the Eurogamer interview that Turbine did. This is what the article says:

Originally Posted by Kate Paiz

"Helm's Deep is a big story, obviously. It's a huge challenge for an MMO technically to have - from the books, - 10,000 orcs cresting a hill, running towards the keep. That's a really robust effort from us and the investment is significant.

"So we need time to get that tech ready for launch so we can bring it to life in a way that players will find credible and in a way that will meet their expectations."

Reading it, seems like they won't necessarily have 10k orcs.

Originally Posted by DCameron

Not sure what you mean here, but they do get elf archer reinforcements (not sure how many, about 100?) and Aragorn is there as well!?

In the book the only Elf there is Legolas. P.J. added the elves for his movie.


I can see Helms Deep as a layered area as they did for Moria, Mirkwood, and that little valley in RoI.

Originally Posted by LeppardUK

Reading it, seems like they won't necessarily have 10k orcs.

10k orcs wouldn't fit into the map, on the other hand it's not like we will be able to tell, from about a hundred up it all becomes "many".

OK so here what i am thinking.

I read all this time on forums about books this, lore-breaking that and i think that some of you guys are missing the point.

This is not the book.And though i love the movies as well they are not the movies also! When the game came out they simply said that they have the rights to tell the story from the book.And the story is about Frodo and his company and his trip to destroy the One ring (BASED on the books). And thats where it ends. After that is a game.Or do you seriously think that the moment you reach Rohan they will forbid to use and elf or hobbit or dwarf.OR that you are not meeting Saruman,or the Ents or not being on Helms Deep! Do you imagine a game with his best product Middle Earth!! and you cannot explore it fully? OR did you imagine that you ll not see Mount Doom eventually from close?

What i mean to say is that as far as the original story goes i dont see any lore breaking or did Gandalf survive Moria? This is not the book, but a game. And in a game a player feels satisfied when he can experiences everything that game has to offer. Of course in order to feel Middle Earth it has to be close to what we know about her. I m not proposing to bring a batallion of dwarfs under king Dein to fight in Helms Deep,or get in the Mount Doom with Frodo or go with Aragorn in the Deads cave but its unavoidable that things that are lore breaking happens and will happen.

Now to the matters at hand guys you need to think more simple. Helms Deep a pvmp zone? are you nuts? More than 50% of the players on this game are either F2p or premium and you will tell them go Vip or forget one of the biggest ,awesome ,epic battles and regions on the game!not going to happen.And if they do it then they deserve their fate my opinion...

Session play i believe that will happen in order to be in that night.But other than that of course i expect it to be an awesome region with quests and people to meet .Same with Edoras. Iconic locations such as these all players want to see them and since the game went free to play i think it would be very low to go and tell them ...you manage to bring a character 85 well done!!!Now go and become vip to see helms Deep?

Love and peace everybody!

I playing now Lego Lotr (awesome game) and I fought at Helm's Deep.
Here is a video, and I think the Lotro can use same and easy features, and can show us the 10.000 uruks.

Originally Posted by AaylaKheledlire

I playing now Lego Lotr (awesome game) and I fought at Helm's Deep.
Here is a video, and I think the Lotro can use same and easy features, and can show us the 10.000 uruks.

I agree. The battle was done very well and the way it was done felt good. In LoTRO, we could do it the same way as in we did with the Wulf's Cleft in Dunland. The battle felt somewhat smooth and there was a direct flow.

Side-Note: Necromancing in LoTRO-Forums is very frowned upon.