Thread: After Much Waiting...

I have to say , I really do not care about changes to how my warden (main toon) fits into secondary rolls. I am a tank or should i say was. Fix the mitigation gap. I have refused to do T2 Orthanc because taking my warden is to much of a strain on the healers. 9.5K hits off trash mobs within seconds of starting a fight just causes wipes. Please please please sort this out and fast. I love playing my warden but as of now its just a crafting alt

We should not be thanking for anything. I'm very up set by the whole situation.

Originally Posted by horus418

What is an off tank? Why would I need an off tank stance?

To you guys complaining about tanking being neglected, do you realize the impact of crit immunity?

Off tank would be someone, who helps the main tank. He can collect those mobs, that the main tank looses. Can support the main tanks aggro by enforcing its aggro like the burglar does and leech aggro from the healers/damage dealers. Force aggro one enemy, so the main tank gets less damage. Call it assistant tank if you like.

I don't want to be a damage dealer with my warden. I want to tank. And if i'm too squishy then at least i want to be an assistant tank. With all that work on the two damage roles, i fear that the role as tank gets somewhat unimportant.

Originally Posted by Kaikas

Off tank would be someone, who helps the main tank. He can collect those mobs, that the main tank looses. Can support the main tanks aggro by enforcing its aggro like the burglar does and leech aggro from the healers/damage dealers. Force aggro one enemy, so the main tank gets less damage. Call it assistant tank if you like.

I don't want to be a damage dealer with my warden. I want to tank. And if i'm too squishy then at least i want to be an assistant tank. With all that work on the two damage roles, i fear that the role as tank gets somewhat unimportant.

We can do all of what you are talking about NOW. If you can't, it's not the class that is at fault, step back and evaluate. Other than T2 Orthanc, where are wardens currently running in to problems?

I'm still not sure that ranged and melee should be separated like that, I'd much prefer if there was one dps stance and a fluid swap between the two, i.e for soloing you could do a 'power attack' from range with a javelin, then start a 'mighty blow' and if the mob has reached the warden, then the attack is performed with a spear. A 'power attack' with a javelin is identical to a 'power attack' with a spear.

An off tank stance wouldn't be such a bad idea, if it has to be 'assailment', tie it to the fist traitline, and make it all about debuffing and threat management, include things like a silence or disarms or snares/roots, weaken enemies, and for probably the umpteenth time this has been suggested on these boards make desolation cause a cower effect, it's annoying enough for the warden, doing it to another tank would be aggro inducing. 'Assailment' is actual a fitting name, remove the threat component from the gambits and that's a role I'd enjoy. So that makes:

Recklessness: melee, ranged.
Assailment: ranged? debuff.
Determination: tanking.

I think the traitlines could do with more focus, like this:

Way of the Spear: melee, ranged.
Way of the Fist: threat, debuff.
Way of the Shield: heal, defence.

As for mitigations, at a conceptual level, why do wardens wear medium armour when heavy armour is better in every single way, it doesn't make any sense. I'd lower the cap on parry and dodge for heavy armour wearers to 15%, it makes sense that wearing plate makes the wearer slower and less responsive, and that's why wardens wear medium to be more agile and responsive. I'd bake it into passive traits:

Guardian:
Block 15, Heavy Shield 10, partial 5
Parry 15, partial 5
Dodge 15, partial 5

Warden:
Block 15, Shield 5, partial 5
Parry 20, partial 10
Dodge 20, partial 10

Not much different from now, except the nerf for heavy armour wearers, but I'd remove all those stats from gear, gambits, runes, legacies etc, and set it in stone through passive traits. The warden would have the same avoidances at the beginning of a fight as after a few gambits.

Finesse could be have an additional function, it increases the mitigation of the partial parry and dodge, and it should be much more beneficial for wardens because they would have twice the chance. A guardian would stack armour and a warden would stack finesse, and self-heals would make up the difference, that's the theory, don't know much about the numbers. If raid progression is going to be tiered, with bosses having more and more finesse, then there has to be a gear solution for the mitigation problem, that can be tweaked as needed. Finesse is a good name for it too, suggesting an agile warrior deflecting blows and dodging most of the damage.

Lastly, all tanks should be crit immune!

I think a few of us are unsure of the Defiant Challenge changes.

Defiant Challenge

This legendary trait will no longer unlock a Gambit, instead. This will be a skill that can be used every 5-7.5 minutes (time is still not 100% certain). It will affect up to 10 targets and force them to attack the Warden for 5-6 seconds, reducing incoming damage by 40% and providing all targets striking the Warden the retaliation effect for 30 seconds.

Does the 40% incoming damage reduction last 5-6 seconds or 30 seconds?

/sword salute. lovin it Orion!

Originally Posted by horus418

We can do all of what you are talking about NOW. If you can't, it's not the class that is at fault, step back and evaluate.

Yes. But with the focus on dps i fear, that we might loose that. I have the feeling, Orion wants to give us more opportunities as damage dealers. So if we afterwards still can't tank equal to guards, he can say: "Well at least you are decent damage dealers now." I don't want that. I want to be a tank and thereby be as attractive to groups as a guard. I fear that orion is developing in the wrong direction. If i want to play a damage dealer i play hunter, rune keeper or champion. I bought the warden to tank.

Originally Posted by horus418

Other than T2 Orthanc, where are wardens currently running in to problems?

It's the competition with guards, that is a problem. If there were no guards, the warden would be okay like he is now. My problem is, that we are second choice tanks. That is frustrating.

Originally Posted by CrusaderOfMetal

Orion, if you have the time to do that, how about improving the Shield Spikes consumables? That is something that could benefit all classes who use a shield and they sure need some reviewing and improvement.

And please give us t7 battle hymns. It's a small think, i know it won't solve any of the warden problems, but it's annoying to have to grind t6 wood to craft hymns. Only wardens don't have westfold class consumables.

You are doing a good job Orion, I'm looking forward for the others news and can't wait to update 6 to come...

Originally Posted by Kaikas

Yes. But with the focus on dps i fear, that we might loose that. I have the feeling, Orion wants to give us more opportunities as damage dealers. So if we afterwards still can't tank equal to guards, he can say: "Well at least you are decent damage dealers now." I don't want that. I want to be a tank and thereby be as attractive to groups as a guard. I fear that orion is developing in the wrong direction. If i want to play a damage dealer i play hunter, rune keeper or champion. I bought the warden to tank.

The only way we "loose that", is if Orion nerfs us, that's not going to happen.

It's the competition with guards, that is a problem. If there were no guards, the warden would be okay like he is now. My problem is, that we are second choice tanks. That is frustrating.

Wardens are actually a better pick as a tank when doing speed runs.

No one wants an offtank class because a maintank could always do it better. no thanks. i wanna be the main tank. not the offtank.

Looks really interesting!

One question is, will our main attribute change from might to agility? or will we be using might for the dmg of the ranged attacks also??

Originally Posted by Lobo-br

Looks really interesting!

One question is, will our main attribute change from might to agility? or will we be using might for the dmg of the ranged attacks also??

I would assume might. It already contributes to out physical mastery which increases ranged damage.

My big question is are the stances going to get a longer cool down or are they going to stay the same? As it stands, we can switch from one to the other in the blink of an eye so it would almost feel a little OP to be able to go back and forth that quickly

Originally Posted by Erasluindor

I would assume might. It already contributes to out physical mastery which increases ranged damage.

that seems to be the most likely scenario

Originally Posted by Faulc

My big question is are the stances going to get a longer cool down or are they going to stay the same? As it stands, we can switch from one to the other in the blink of an eye so it would almost feel a little OP to be able to go back and forth that quickly

Maybe overpowered but it's hard to say without actually playing, on the other hand your gear and traits wouldnt match up to your new stance so it wouldnt necessarily be too good.

You know I think wardens are the only group of people who worry about being over powered most classes will deny that description even if it is manifestly true, usually while calling for nerfs of thier closest rivals. I think it is a underdog complex where we feel superior for playing a subpar class to those who choose another more balanced class.

Originally Posted by Feybobiam

So what will be the point of Recklessness if Assailment is 30m and Recklessness is... 5? This will be the first class with ranged/melee DPS specs, so the distinctions better be significant or ranged will dominate the scene every time, and I sure hope it won't just be "melee is more dps than ranged, with the price being you have to be in melee and suffer more potential damage and requires more mobility", because since Wardens are tanks, that's not really a price to pay at all.

Gotta hit this one right or we're looking at another Ardour (which is still mostly unused btw, and Champs have ideas to help with that, but this is not a Champion thread).

(speaking of champion threads we have one or two over there patiently awaiting dev feedback. just sayin.)

I'm expecting Releckness will have DOTs and debuff effects in spear gambit line, while Assailment will have increased range DPS, maybe CC and more fellowship buff effects. So if you have 3 wardens in group, 1 could DPS and debuff, 1 go on range, CC and buff, and 1 will tank. Ofcourse, Orion will release more changes so we just have to wait and see.

Originally Posted by Iznogoot

I'm expecting Releckness will have DOTs and debuff effects in spear gambit line, while Assailment will have increased range DPS, maybe CC and more fellowship buff effects. So if you have 3 wardens in group, 1 could DPS and debuff, 1 go on range, CC and buff, and 1 will tank. Ofcourse, Orion will release more changes so we just have to wait and see.

That is a point though from the looks of these changes a group of only wardens (maybe with a healer for harder runs) should be able to do any instance (maybe not Dargnakh), all that is really lacking is extended dazes/fears for cc.

I would just like to throw my hat into the "Sounds awesome" pile.

Thanks for the info.

Orion, you somehow managed to pacify the entirety of Warden Forums. How? XD

I've been screaming "melee debuffs and ranged group support" for ages now, and... it... it happened! HALLELUJAH!

Orion, you've hit a winner with this one =) throw in some basic roots and improved stun chance in Recklessness, and I think this class will be truly whole again.

Originally Posted by SharadSun

Orion, you somehow managed to pacify the entirety of Warden Forums. How? XD

I've been screaming "melee debuffs and ranged group support" for ages now, and... it... it happened! HALLELUJAH!

Orion, you've hit a winner with this one =) throw in some basic roots and improved stun chance in Recklessness, and I think this class will be truly whole again.

The melee debuffs and ranged group support are great because they show a secondary role finally getting developed for wardens, however, I'm still concerned that the diary doesn't address the issue with incoming damage or how "crit immunity" is planned on being used(or if it will be used at all).

Basically the secondary roles thing is good but I still want to see what will be done with our main role:tanking before I can really make a judgement on this update. More avoidances and being able to extend the durations of the buffs seems to be a step in the right direction but I think that will be just enough to make up for finesse losses in raids.

Looking forward to more info.

The ONE and only important thing WE ie every single person owning a warden right now!!!! WANT is to become the MAIN tanks. ORION we want to become MAIN TANKS don't give us anything else just do this and we will respect you for life man!!
PLEASE

SAVE THE WARDEN!!!

Originally Posted by Acidburn_32

The ONE and only important thing WE ie every single person owning a warden right now!!!! WANT is to become the MAIN tanks. ORION we want to become MAIN TANKS don't give us anything else just do this and we will respect you for life man!!
PLEASE

SAVE THE WARDEN!!!

Personally im excited about the ranged dps thing! But yeah i agree that we pretty much all rolled wardens for tanking. Wait until the blog comes out with the shield gambits comes out. These should prove to be the making or breaking point of the class since Orion said in his last teaser that these will be the ones dealing with defense and crit defense. The extra evade from the fist gambits is just pure icing on the cake! When the shield gambits are released i guess well figure out what flavor cake.

Originally Posted by Orion

Warden’s Taunt
Deals nominal Light damage to a target at short range
Applies short Light bleed effect
Adds 2% to Block, Parry and Evade on successful hit (duration 20 seconds stacking up to 3 times)
5% chance to Slightly increase threat against targets

Is the light bleed absolutely necessary in this gambit-builder? In a day and age where we have to exercise careful control over where we place bleeds (e.g. Draigoch's claws, or bosses such as Flagit who get huge heals every single tick when their shield is up while a bleed is on them) having a forced bleed on a basic-builder is crippling. Even a really short, small bleed.

Maybe the Fist-builder could just do a bit more of one-time light damage instead?

Just $0.02 from someone who has been yelled at in raids for putting up bleeds when all I'm trying to do it use my gambit-builders.

Originally Posted by Galaxiana

Is the light bleed absolutely necessary in this gambit-builder? In a day and age where we have to exercise careful control over where we place bleeds (e.g. Draigoch's claws, or bosses such as Flagit who get huge heals every single tick when their shield is up while a bleed is on them) having a forced bleed on a basic-builder is crippling. Even a really short, small bleed.

Maybe the Fist-builder could just do a bit more of one-time light damage instead?

Just $0.02 from someone who has been yelled at in raids for putting up bleeds when all I'm trying to do it use my gambit-builders.

I agree with Galaxiana. I don't know what that light bleed is. Assuming it doesn't break CC, I would not have a problem with it. But if it does, please remove it.

This looks beyond awesome.
I wonder how ranged dps will compare to melee dps, and how melee dps will compare to our current dps.

No induction range (will jav max range legacy work on gambits and stuff?) could be freaking awesome, cant wait.

Originally Posted by gageithman

This looks beyond awesome.
I wonder how ranged dps will compare to melee dps, and how melee dps will compare to our current dps.

No induction range (will jav max range legacy work on gambits and stuff?) could be freaking awesome, cant wait.

SniperWarden.

Originally Posted by Galaxiana

Is the light bleed absolutely necessary in this gambit-builder? In a day and age where we have to exercise careful control over where we place bleeds (e.g. Draigoch's claws, or bosses such as Flagit who get huge heals every single tick when their shield is up while a bleed is on them) having a forced bleed on a basic-builder is crippling. Even a really short, small bleed.

Maybe the Fist-builder could just do a bit more of one-time light damage instead?

Just $0.02 from someone who has been yelled at in raids for putting up bleeds when all I'm trying to do it use my gambit-builders.

Probably no different than the short Light DoT Warden's Taunt already does, actually.

MAKE WARDENS MAIN TANKS

SAVE THE WARDEN!!!

I will keep saying this (as this is the only thing that matters to me) until I see some changes!!!

Originally Posted by Orion

..... Now, we have been a little more conservative with _____

Whenever a game dev, in any game, uses the word conservative, be afraid, be very afraid. This usually means 3 months+ to get an adjustments made.

Originally Posted by Dahbee

Whenever a game dev, in any game, uses the word conservative, be afraid, be very afraid. This usually means 3 months+ to get an adjustments made.

Since its already been 3 months since they anounced there would be changes and the best estimate is another 2 months.

U4 was the problem for warden wich came out in september
So the real fix(if it will be fixed) sould come in U6 in march, that's 6months to fix a class....i do think it's plenty of time
But....i recall that in the testing servers wardens complained about the mitigations being at 55% and for the damage that they were taking it was too low, turbine said they would fix it and when U4 came they lowered the mitigations by another 5%

We're getting closer to U6 and the wardens state the mitigations are broken and avoidances don't work well with finesse nor when it comes to tactical damage.
Yet up till now the suggested fix is more avoidances, while many are close to the cap already.

From my point of view, unless turbine actually listens to the people that have been PLAYING wardens i doubt there can be a fix, all posible suggestions to counter the massive damage have been given, and up till now i haven't seen anything done with the suggestions.
Finesse cuts trew our avoidances and our resistance as well as tactical damage brings all avoidances to 0% getting more isn't the fix

What would actually calm most of the wardens is actually hearing the plan to counter this, class revamp ok....but up till now no measure against our main problem.....so i would like to see the plan for this

MT

And shield tactics was that like some sort of cruel joke...It never works with dragnakh ...it doesn't work on giants ...heck I really don't know why you gave it to us with a cute 10 second stun immunity that takes longer to pull off than it lasts.....

YOU know that wardens cant handle well once stunned ...throws the flow throws the rhythm.... and you honestly cannot expect us to stick with the galtrev armour set forever just for the 5seconds boost. Please increase the stun immunity time.... or at least make it work when we need it ...not against wolves and junk....

And I reiterate!!! please make wardens as main tanks again ...I simply cannot stress this enough.

so you are seriously trying to give the warden viable dps stances. what nobody yet considered, you need two absolutly different stats for beeing a tank or beeing a dd. as tank you stack vitality but as dd you probably (actually for sure) need a bunch of might. so the warden will end as single class needing 2 different sets of items to fulfill their dedicated roles appropriatly. till now guardian and warden had a dps stance for solo leveling, but nobody seriously considered taking one in raid for a dps spot if there is a real dd available.
but now you say 2/3 of the warden is designed for dmg. so your goal clearly is to create a dd comparable to the excisting ones. so i think there must be a solution avoiding the need for 2 complete different item sets. for example a lore-master is stacking will regardless what trait set he is using. same with minstrels.
so here are a few things that can be considered.

1. the first few hundreds might have a much bigger impact on dmg then everything let´s say above 700. so you could take your tanking set a do decent dmg.
poblems:
-you would end as decent dd but have 12k morale (not so bad for the warden himself )
-you are lacking crit.
-would also effect badly equiped wardens in comparison to other classes because getting a few hundreds might to get descent dmg isn´t that hard.

2. my favorite: transformation of stats if you use at least 4 (or 5) dmg class traits
- activating a dd stance means your might and vitality are swaped.
- parts of block/evade/parry are transformed into crit

i think that would be a good solution to combine both roles in one set. if you are playing the warden as a tank (what his dedicated role was) you are able to fullfill your role as dd, too.
apart from set bonuses you would have all important stats, too. of course having a pure dd set should end in more dmg than having the tank stats tranformed. for example 500 crit should always be more than transformed 500 block. and of course you can use more agility on dd sets, too.

Originally Posted by Ellahad

so you are seriously trying to give the warden viable dps stances. what nobody yet considered, you need two absolutly different stats for beeing a tank or beeing a dd. as tank you stack vitality but as dd you probably (actually for sure) need a bunch of might. so the warden will end as single class needing 2 different sets of items to fulfill their dedicated roles appropriatly. till now guardian and warden had a dps stance for solo leveling, but nobody seriously considered taking one in raid for a dps spot if there is a real dd available.

no one's forcing you to stack might you know? you can still just stack vitality and remain a tank

also there's the option of having different sets for different playstiles... other classes are doing that so i am sure you can too

Originally Posted by khaipur

Since its already been 3 months since they anounced there would be changes and the best estimate is another 2 months.

Seven months from the initial breaking of the class (at cap) to my best guess of when Update 6 will finally arrive. That's a little excessively conservative, but still looking forward to April(?).

Originally Posted by MTminas

What would actually calm most of the wardens is actually hearing the plan to counter this, class revamp ok....but up till now no measure against our main problem.....so i would like to see the plan for this

I have the feeling we are being fed with awesome damage dealer stances, so we calm down and forget, that we are inferior tanks compared to guards. I don't think its turbines concept, to make the warden and the guard equal tanks. Otherwise Orion would have focused on that, instead of giving us details on our damage stances.

Hopefully i'm wrong and Orion started with the icing and now goes on to the important stuff.

Most of us started playing Warden when MoM launched because it was a fun tank, with self-healing capabilities that could take a lickin' and keep on kickin'.

None of these changes restore that ability and it is obvious that the devs are no longer interested in listening to the people who actually PLAY wardens.

Warden was designed to use a spear throw and charge in and start the fight then soak up the damage from 4 or 5 opponents while screaming in defiance and gradually kicking their butts. The 'new' warden will be some nancy-boy spear chucker who couldn't stand up to three drunken goblins...

The devs have lost the plot on this game - totally. I don't know what happened to the guys who designed LotRO, but I can assure you they are no longer in the building.

Originally Posted by Hrefntor

Warden was designed to use a spear throw and charge in and start the fight then soak up the damage from 4 or 5 opponents while screaming in defiance and gradually kicking their butts. The 'new' warden will be some nancy-boy spear chucker who couldn't stand up to three drunken goblins...

The devs have lost the plot on this game - totally. I don't know what happened to the guys who designed LotRO, but I can assure you they are no longer in the building.

My thoughts exactly!
Two words :MAIN TANK.

Since the main problem with Warden is tanking - I don't understand the need for a ranged DPS class? there are plenty of RK and hunters on. I play a warden for the enjoyment of tanking something really big or tanking lots of stuff at once.
I offer two main improvements namely (1) reduce our finesse penalty in Main Tanking and (2) improve our Off-Tanking


Main Tanking stance - should be focused on single target tanking - esp main bosses with high finesse and avoiding AOE that would break mez: The key here to keeping the Warden a vialble alternative to GRD but different is having this stance avoid finesse impacts to evade: Rationale - warden should tank by avoidance but since finesse negatively impacts BPE equal, WRD have been shortchanged as tanks vs GRD against Main bosses. Simply removing the finess penalty to evade should make up for mitigation losses without make our BPE unbalanced vs less mobs. Other variation are possible but having WRD in this stance reduce finesse seems a viable alternative and is in keeping with the class design. Warden surivies through self heals and superior avoidance. Focusing in avoidance seems more in line with the warden, and makes some kiting viable especially right after using NS.

Shield bash should improve self heals 5% 10% 15 %
Quick Thrush should improve partial BPE at 2% 4% and 6%
Taunt should should improve partial BPE mitigation say 10% 20% and 30%

New AOE/off tanking stance - this stance should be viable for both shield and fist trait lines. Here the warden does not reduce finesse penalty nor his the BPE as high as the Main Tanking but his attacks do more AOE damage/bleeds, fellowship threat and life leech, etc. This stance would be most effective against multiple mobs with low finesse or a few mobs with medium finesse. Warden suvives through leech heal (enhanced if yellow traited) and avoidance (if blue traited) and/or kiting.

Shield bash should improve leech healing 5% 10% 15%
Quick Thrush should improve partial BPE at 2% 4% and 6%
Taunt should should improve leech threat

As for the Range DPS - seem you are on the right track but should be more of range tanking class - so when your in the moors with a group of hunters/RK you add to the BPE of your ranged group.

Originally Posted by Hrefntor

Most of us started playing Warden when MoM launched because it was a fun tank, with self-healing capabilities that could take a lickin' and keep on kickin'.

None of these changes restore that ability and it is obvious that the devs are no longer interested in listening to the people who actually PLAY wardens.

Warden was designed to use a spear throw and charge in and start the fight then soak up the damage from 4 or 5 opponents while screaming in defiance and gradually kicking their butts. The 'new' warden will be some nancy-boy spear chucker who couldn't stand up to three drunken goblins...

The devs have lost the plot on this game - totally. I don't know what happened to the guys who designed LotRO, but I can assure you they are no longer in the building.

- Agree with para 1.
- Hope and expect that para 2 will be proved wrong (as we've only seen 1/3 yet of what Orion has in mind), and I'm sure you will be thrilled if that turns out to be the case.
- Agree with first sentance of para 3. And actually agree with second sentance too, but that's what dps classes are supposed to do: dish out amazing damage while not having to worry (much) about getting hit because the tank is doing his job. Having a viable dps role should not mean that Update 6 fails to make us at least as strong a tank as the Guard, when we're in tanking mode.
- As with para 2, I hope that para 4 will be proved wrong as well, based on Monday's and Tuesday's blog postings.