Thread: Please reduce the man racial bonus that grants +5% incomming healing

Hi

I play a dwarf guardian as my main. At end game I like to min/max my character as best I can given what loot I can realisticly get my hands on. One thing that has alway bugged me is how significant the extra +5% incomming heal bonus that an identically equiped man guardian will have over me. Don't get me wrong, I realise that an extra 5% isnt game-breaking to other tank classes but a guardian sort of lives (or dies) by how easy he is to heal which means man guardians will always be 5% ahead of me.

Yes, I realise that dwarves get an extra 1% common mit, so why isnt the man heal bonus 1% instead? 2% would be ok too, but 5% is much too big a difference and is moving towards being 'very significant'. I'm sure there would be an outcry if dwarf common mit was increased to 5% or elves had +5% parry chance, or hobbits +5% tactical mit.

I'm really not asking for a nerf here, I just want to not have to regret having not rolled a man guardian purely based on a racial bonus.

I know how you feel Bhoris. I made a hobbit burglar because I had to. I mean come on! A burglar who isn't a hobbit!? But then at 65 I find out that hobbits are much easier to track in the moors than men. So a man burglar would a have been a better choice if ganking in the moors was part of the plan (which it was).

But what'r ya gonna do? Ain't no way I'm rolling another burglar, so I have to live with my choice. As you state, it isn't game breaking, and it means that when you tank the hardest end game content successfully you (and your group) are just a little bit better than those groups that need a man guardian to survive .

It says in the character development what you get extra, dwarves also get an additional might compared to men... and you racial oh sh*t skill is so much better then man heal generally speaking, my reasoning defending man is my wardens ridiculously squishy since the update so take my 5% I'd be even worse

well im to tired to proof read so im not gonna muahaha

When the game launched, the best racial is the Human - Strength of Morale. It is a full heal once an hour. These days with the massive morale pools for characters. It is not much of heal any more.

Pretty much all the racial bonuses are Meh. Turbine taken away the full heals.

Taken away the Tank is immune to all incoming damage while the bonus is active because their mitigation is over 100%. That goes shield goes down. The Captain activates In Harm Way absorbing all damage. Right before the Captain dies - Up goes Last Stand.

Taken all the fun away. No more Guardian builds where the Guardian would have so much ICMR, BPE and mitigation that the Boss could not make any head away trying to kill the Guadian. Meanwhile the rest of the group ate pop corn watched as the Guardian slowly killed the Boss via Sting Sting Sting mixed with auto attacks.

The entire combat system, racials and skills were revamped as part of Mines of Moria combat changes and further nerfs like IHW and LS for the Captain later on. Plus the nerf of FMs.

Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty

When the game launched, the best racial is the Human - Strength of Morale. It is a full heal once an hour. These days with the massive morale pools for characters. It is not much of heal any more.

Pretty much all the racial bonuses are Meh. Turbine taken away the full heals.

Taken away the Tank is immune to all incoming damage while the bonus is active because their mitigation is over 100%. That goes shield goes down. The Captain activates In Harm Way absorbing all damage. Right before the Captain dies - Up goes Last Stand.

Taken all the fun away. No more Guardian builds where the Guardian would have so much ICMR, BPE and mitigation that the Boss could not make any head away trying to kill the Guadian. Meanwhile the rest of the group ate pop corn watched as the Guardian slowly killed the Boss via Sting Sting Sting mixed with auto attacks.

The entire combat system, racials and skills were revamped as part of Mines of Moria combat changes and further nerfs like IHW and LS for the Captain later on. Plus the nerf of FMs.

So by removing all the 'I win' buttons from the game and the fact that various build allowed a boss fight to be completely trivialised Turbine have removed all the fun from the game?

The point I was trying to make with my original post is that when I reach level cap I should not regret the decision I made in terms of race when rolling my character becuase of its racial abilities. It would be best if the racials were all converted to a rating system so they have are significant at low level but become more increasingly meaningless the higher you level.

http://lorebook.lotro.com/wiki/Trait:Endurance_of_Stone

While I agree with OP in terms of fairness, can't see them doing it. Would be too controversial to take away something people have.

IMHO, race should mostly be a "style" choice, more about player whim than power gaming. Folks who want the "best" guardian shouldn't feel compelled to pick a specific race, not should anyone ever have cause to regret their chosen race at end-game. Racial ports, fine. Minor stat differences, fine (and basically irrelevant with folks hitting 1500-2000 on their primary stat these days). Once per hour panic buttons that are ~comparable, more dubious, as they are hard to balance. But things like +5% incoming heals are real end game power issues that were probably a bad idea...

Originally Posted by Bhoris_they_spider

So by removing all the 'I win' buttons from the game and the fact that various build allowed a boss fight to be completely trivialised Turbine have removed all the fun from the game?

The point I was trying to make with my original post is that when I reach level cap I should not regret the decision I made in terms of race when rolling my character becuase of its racial abilities. It would be best if the racials were all converted to a rating system so they have are significant at low level but become more increasingly meaningless the higher you level.

Turbine's original objective which hasn't is that racial choice should be made based on personal preference or role playing. Not based on game play decisions or because the racial work really well with a particular class.

I have a level 75 dwarf Guardian. I happen to think Endurance of Stone is superior to the healing bonus. I do not believe I slotted the healing racial on my Human Captain or Champion. I liked the other Human racial better.

Perhaps a good solution would be to do what Turbine did with the racial teleport skills. Put em all in the store. Your dwarf wants the Human heal bonus. Buy it for Turbine Points. Drop in a dwarf racial slot. All characters will have access to everything. No more of this continual noise between groups of customers and or Turbine.

Another option to change the name of the slots traits and skills to something else. Make all the deeds available to all characters. Hobbit silence become Silence. Sylan Shadows becomes Shadows.

Originally Posted by Iodan

I know how you feel Bhoris. I made a hobbit burglar because I had to. I mean come on! A burglar who isn't a hobbit!? But then at 65 I find out that hobbits are much easier to track in the moors than men. So a man burglar would a have been a better choice if ganking in the moors was part of the plan (which it was).

But what'r ya gonna do? Ain't no way I'm rolling another burglar, so I have to live with my choice. As you state, it isn't game breaking, and it means that when you tank the hardest end game content successfully you (and your group) are just a little bit better than those groups that need a man guardian to survive .

The hobbits are easier to track than men? That sounds really backwards compared to hobbits in Tolkien lore!

Actually, it's like this - Wargs can track Hobbits. Uruks can track Men. Wargs Rank 9+ (or those who've bought the skill in the Store) can track any freep regardless of race.

Obviously, being tracked by a Warg (which you, in turn, can't see) is more inconvenient than being tracked by a Warleader or Blackarrow, but Hobbits aren't easier to track, per se.

Originally Posted by Iodan

I know how you feel Bhoris. I made a hobbit burglar because I had to. I mean come on! A burglar who isn't a hobbit!? But then at 65 I find out that hobbits are much easier to track in the moors than men. So a man burglar would a have been a better choice if ganking in the moors was part of the plan (which it was).

But what'r ya gonna do? Ain't no way I'm rolling another burglar, so I have to live with my choice. As you state, it isn't game breaking, and it means that when you tank the hardest end game content successfully you (and your group) are just a little bit better than those groups that need a man guardian to survive .

You're very misled in regards to burglars. That *used* to be the case, but since the advent of the store on creep side, it has switched in hilarious fashion. Now that skills and traits are purchaseable, many, many wargs simply track everything. So man/hobbit, no difference, wargs will find you. If you're Man though, you'll also fall prey to WL/BA man-tracking talismans. The hobbit will avoid that.

So yes, it used to be true, as being tracked by wargs was worse than uruks, but now that so many wargs track men too, you should really be glad to have rolled a hobbit.

Originally Posted by PurebloodWorg

http://lorebook.lotro.com/wiki/Trait:Endurance_of_Stone

This lore-book entry is wrong.

Endurance of Stone was nerfed.

It is -50% incoming damage. Not -75%.

I agree, man incoming healing should be reduced to 2%

Dwarf common mitigation should be increased to 2%

Hobbit fear resistance should be increased to 2%

Elven disease resistance should be increased to 2%

Make it even, make it fair.

Originally Posted by Faithknight

This lore-book entry is wrong.

Endurance of Stone was nerfed.

It is -50% incoming damage. Not -75%.[...]

Yes, but unless I am mistaken it has also been changed from common, fire, and shadow damage to all current damage types.

To respond to a few comments:

Yula: You dont have to equip a virtue to get your +5% incomming healing, it's something your character is born with and is never without. I think Dwarves get an extra 1% common mit, elves some disease resistance, hobbits get shadow mitigation (not sure on this one), and men get +5% incomming healing. I think your idea of making these store bought is actually not a bad one and I would certainly see this as a good solution.

I dont care if man heal is worse than endurance of stone. Buff man heal all you like or nerf endurance of stone for all I care. Other people may think differently but I started this thread to discuss the incomming healing in relation to the other passives.

I dont care about the +20 stats some races have. These are trivial to offset if needed with a single virtue or piece of gear etc. My dwarf guard has stacked as much incomming heal as possible to get to around +21%... If I wanted to get to +26% that an equivalent geared man guardian would have. Firstly, it would not be possible (cap = 25%, 30% for men), and secondly, if I want to get to +25% it would mean finding an extra 5000 or so incomming heal from somewhere in gear. This is not even close to being feasible, unlike offseting say -20 in a single stat etc.

To play 'Devil's advocate' for a while 1% common mit doesnt stack up too badly against 5% incomming heal for a guardian. If we compare a dwarf guardian against a man guardian, the man will (most likely) be at 70% common mitigation, while the dwarf will be at 71%. In terms of damage reduction the dwarf will actually recieve 3.33% less damage than the man which is much more significant than the 1% would initially suggest. That said i would probabaly still rather have the incomming healing as lots of damage is tactical.

My solution: Turn every racial passive in to a rating so it becomes somewhat meanifgul at lower level but irrelevant at higher level i.e. +200 incomming heal, +200 common mitigation etc.

Originally Posted by Faithknight

I agree, man incoming healing should be reduced to 2%
Dwarf common mitigation should be increased to 2%
Hobbit fear resistance should be increased to 2%
Elven disease resistance should be increased to 2%
Make it even, make it fair.

But that's not even (fair is subjective).

Healing applies to all group content.

Common mitigation applies to all common damage. There are many cases where one will be subjected to common damage, though not as many cases as those where you're being healed (relevant content considered only).

Disease resistance can be useful in certain cases, but resist is largely << mitigation. Mit works every time. Resistance (in this case) works 2% of the time.

Fear resistance is currently probably less useful than disease resist, but that is dependent on the content. Again, overall not as good as mitigation for the above reasons.

What I think they should do is scale these benefits with the current state of the game - or change them. The man bonus is hugely superior to all other racials, especially since they tweaked the caps.

Most people, myself included, created and leveled many of our characters a long time ago. To say we did not understand the long-term ramifications would be quite an understatement. For instance, I made my Champ an elf simply because I had already made a man, dwarf and hobbit. If I could change this I would do it in 1/2 a heartbeat simply because I wound up at the end game and min-maxing is all I can do with my character that holds much relevance in the game.

No, current state is not game-breaking and no it doesn't keep me from accomplishing what I want to accomplish - but it is one of those things that eats at me....knowing there is a better choice; no matter how small or seemingly insignificant. I have to consider 5% more incoming healing on my Champ than I'd have to if I would have chosen to play a man. This affects relic choices, jewelry choices, armor choices, etc and therefore nerfs me a bit more than it otherwise would. Conversely, I don't feel like I ever have to make up for the decreased diseased resist on my non-elf toons, eh? That's the disparity that makes this bum me out.

Give men "X"% incoming healing
Give Dwarves "2X"% physical mit
Give elves "2X"% tactical mit
Give hobbits "X"% to physical and "X"% to tactical mit

Something more relevant than what exists.
Racial choices seem arbitrary to most new players, but they can have significant ramifications to the end game player who speaks in terms of 2% gains here or there....

Originally Posted by wikjif

Yes, but unless I am mistaken it has also been changed from common, fire, and shadow damage to all current damage types.

This is correct, and since raid spec guards will be at >60% tactical mitigation and 71% (for dwarves) common mit, there is very little difference from the 75%. Though, if I remember correctly it used to be 75% MITIGATION, now it is just -50% damage, which is applied after mitigations already reduce the numbers.

All told, I think I prefer the new version.

As a tank the 5% is a huge bonus, and on top of that only the Race of Man got a BPE racial trait.

I remember back in the days, where I chose Elf for my Warden to achieve an agile warrior. For some reason, that made sense in my head back then, but now I have a Warden with less inc heal and less BPE than a Man Warden would have.

I think it's about time Turbine added some new traits to even out some of the advantages of each race and to give some actual choices for each class, I think my Man champion, guardian and captain are using the same racial traits, and I dont think I'd pick any different for any other class apart from swapping Sword Damage or BoM for something else.

As a guardian dwarf speaking i want to take this thread back to the top list of changes.

At launch of the game in 2007 we had heals of 700-800 and that was nice and big and when u had a 5% incoming healing that was like 35-40 heals more each heal. it wasnt that much because we had 5-6k and we as dwarfs had1%- incoming damage. so that was also a bit like 30-40 damage so it was almost even.

But now in 2013 we got heals that are sometimes 6k heals or even higher thats like 300-400 healing each heal. thats a 10x improvement what we had in 2007. The morale we have now isnt a 10x factor. infact a normal guardian now has maybe 17k morale and good geared guardians in raids got 23-24 with all bufs etc. thats maybe 3x 4x better then we had on launch. Soo the improvements are way to high it isnt even fair for the other races who just has a 1% racial bonus.

Dwarfs for example had 400-500 damage at launch 1% lesser = 4-5 damage each hit u got. now in 2013 we sometimes get hits from normal mobs like 900-1200 in raids and bosses can do 6 k hits maybe a bit higher. thats like 9-12 damage we have lesser each hit and on bosses we have 60 damage each big hit like that. thats maybe a x2 improvement.

10x improvement for heals (5% racial bonus human)
2x improvement -inc damage (1% racial bonus dwarf)

Thats so unfair turbine if u want to make it even boost the other racial bonus also to 5% or reduce the incoming healing from humans to 1% so that its also even.


Sorry btw for my bad english :P

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

As a tank the 5% is a huge bonus, and on top of that only the Race of Man got a BPE racial trait.

...

Dwarves get a trait that increases their block rating by about 2% which is arguably our most useful avoidance since it is tied to threat.

I suspect the man bonuses were meant to be more enticing than the other races since the Race of Man was most dominant by the end of the third age. I play an Elf guard and I don't regret it. Eldar's Grace has saved me and my fellows more times than Man-heal ever would have.

Still, I would like all of the racial bonuses to be looked at and adjusted to be a little more equal among the classes. As the Man has a trait for BPE and the Dwarf for B, give Elves P and Hobbits E. That sort of thing. I'd like to see Elves have as much as an extra 5% to all resists and the Dwarves could have their in-combat regen bonuses rescaled. Hobbits could have a 2-3% bonus to their tact mits, or something. This way each race would be distinct and carry their own real strengths that, while not game breaking, would provide interesting advantages in one situation or another.

Didn't Turbine say in one of those chat things that they would be looking at racial traits after the class revamps? I'll be interested to see what they come up with.

I HATE the racial traits/passives in this game, they're just wrong-headed. Even if they do revamp, I expect it will be more of the same wrong headedness rather than a change in direction.

The problem is the game conforms to the D&D pulp fantasy trope rather than Tolkien lore :

1. Dwarves strong, sturdy and clumsy
2. Elves effeminate and sickly, but good at magic
3. Men best all rounders

Elves were actually a highly durable, long lived race, though they tended to be very conservative. Men were like in body (to Elves) but "more easily slain, ... less easily healed" as well as subject to disease and poison which Elves were not. Dwarves were wrote of as being "hardiest to endure". Hobbits were highly resistant to all forms of magical attack. Men were bold, prone to landing the big shot when it counted (like Bard of Dale, oneshotting arch nemesis Smaug) and physically very strong. Men with an important destiny also seemed to have good "character shields", escaping unscratched over and over while their company got slaughtered (Silmarillion has plenty examples of this, but I digress).

Anyway, the upshot of this is that I really object to being penalised WRT Vitality/Morale compared to Men and Hobbits. Dwarves, OK, that could be justified, but Men? No. However small the malus is, it's still getting the essence of these races wrong. And at the end of the day, whatever stat tomes, virtues and gear you get, someone else can have also, and retain their advantage. At endgame, when everyone has the best gear, you can't just overcome this with itemisation - unless you're willing to sacrifice something more important just to prove a point.

So, i'd be much happier if we just got rid of these racial passives altogether and made the differences purely cosmetic. Men get the best looking males, Elves the best looking females, Dwarves the best sounds, Hobbits the most cuteness. And pies. I personally would not miss any of the long CD racial abilities, but if there are folks that really depend on them, just make them all equivalent. Eg. Men, Elves and Hobbits get 75% Evade for 10 seconds, Dwarves get +50% to all mitigations for 10 seconds. Because Dwarves must be dwarves eh?

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If you're actually wanting to keep the racial passives and make them more lore appropriate, here's my take -

Stat passives

Elves +Vitality, +Agility, -Fate
Dwarves +Vitality, +Might, -Agility
Hobbits +Fate, +Agility -Might
Men +Might, +Fate -Vitality

Combat modifiers

Men +Crit chance, +Crit Magnitude, + BPE
Elves +Incoming Healing
Dwarves +Mitigation, +Melee Damage
Hobbit +Tactical Mitigation, +Resistances

Panic button

Elves - A big heal
Men, Hobbits - Avoidance buff
Dwarves - mitigation buff


This all makes more sense if you've read the Silmarillion, not just LOTR. Yes, i know turbine don't have a licence for silmarillion names and places, but you can't ignore the background it provides to describing how people are.

Finally, I have to accept that on this forum I'm going to get far less support for these ideas than on a Tolkien discussion board like Entmoot - since if you're not happy with the LOTRO Status Quo, you're less likely to be playing LOTRO.

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Counter arguments

>>Elves shouldn't complain about having less HP. They got more agility.

Reread my first paragraph. It's the essence of the lore that is wrong.
Also, this means we're giving up something that is important to EVERY class for something that is important to only to Hunters. I know Agi matters to Wardens too, but not to the extent they'd give up Vit to get it.


------------------------------
Doing Tha Math

Back to the OP's point.


5% incoming healing sounds like a lot more than +1% common mitigation. But it isn't.

Guardians should have common mitigation capped at 70% endgame. This means out of every 100 points of common damage, they're taking a 30 point hit to Morale. Dwarves however, get an extra 1% on top of the 70% mitigation cap, so they only take 29 points of damage to Morale. That's over a 3% reduction in incoming damage.

B/P/E - Men get 1% or so to each avoidance rating. Because of the diminishing returns law for avoidances above 15%, 400 points added to Block or Parry rating only avoids as many hits as 200 in Evade rating.

So, Dwarf gets 1% extra block
Man gets 0.5% block, 0.5% parry, 1% evade.

Man does better by 1% in avoidances then. Since endgame guards have about 50% BPE, "stacking factors" mean this is worth a 2% reduction in incoming damage.


Summary

Dwarves take 3% less common damage because of common mitigation passive.
Men take 2% fewer hits because of buffs to Evade rating.
Men get healed by 5% more because of passive.
Men win, apart from when it comes to the 1HR cooldown skill (which heals about as much as "Catch a Breath").

Still , you Dwarves get upset about overpowered Men, you should try playing an Elf..

Originally Posted by Jimeih

I suspect the man bonuses were meant to be more enticing than the other races since the Race of Man was most dominant by the end of the third age.....



Didn't Turbine say in one of those chat things that they would be looking at racial traits after the class revamps? I'll be interested to see what they come up with.

I thought the initial idea was to make men very powerful and Elves weak to make the majority of player characters on the server Men - since the population of Men was far far higher in middle earth at the end of the third age. When game first launched, i heard it mentioned in chat channels and on forum so often i assumed it had come from a dev.

Certainly back then, Elves were VERY rare in the launch areas. Outside of Ered Luin and Rivendell, you had a lone token Elf in the Shire, three in Bree-land (outside the barrow downs), a tiny refuge in the North Downs (meluinen) and half a dozen quest givers in the Trollshaws. They were miserable and all they talked about was leaving middle earth.

Something seemed to change around Moria time. "Explorer of Eregion" NPCs appeared in every major hub, Eregion and Lothlorien were swimming in the pointy eared critters, and suddenly they're all maniacally gung-ho. Perhaps they realised part of LOTRO's appeal is being able to play and see Elves, so there was no point trying to stop us.

Even so, i'd be happy to accept a "one elf character" per account limit, just saying, and if you want to restrict the population that's the best way to do it, rather than with nerfs...

Alright, I think i have a thesis, "How to design a Racial traits system that will keep most people happy"


1) The most important thing is that the bonuses and penalties agree with the player's own perceptions of their hero's characteristics.

My "hero" having the lowest Vitality / HP of any race conflicts with how i perceive her and the lore. Perhaps she sparks up a ciggy the moment i log out, lives off Bacon sandwiches and has a family history of heart disease. She might look OK but is actually at death's door and could keel over at any minute. But for me, it's a big turn off. Makes me feel I'm playing in a D&D universe not a Tolkien one.

2) It's OK other races being more powerful than my own (within reason, I'd still like to be able to get groups and not be rejected on racial grounds), provided the characteristics that make another race more powerful don't conflict with my own understanding of the lore and what i believe to be my character's strengths.

E.G. Men are supposed to be the best race, the Age of Men is upon us and I'm OK with that.

I'm ok with them having a BPE buff that makes them a slightly better tank and a crit buff that makes them a slightly better healer or DPS, because in the Silmarillion, a book that focuses on Elves and Men a lot, Heroes from the Race of Man achieve what they achieve through exceptional skill. They landed their blows when they needed to and dodged what would kill them. And the characters we play are meant to be these heroes of exceptional skill, not cannon fodder from the Gondorian infantry/Bree Town militia.

The Elven characters of the Silmarillion were always spoken of in terms of their innate power and bloodline, and performed feats of endurance or control over nature according to this measure. (And incidentally, almost invariably met a grisly fate - in this book, the Elves were a race guilty of having sinned and offended the Valar, rather as Boromir sins and thus seals his fate in LOTR).

3) Whatever racial characteristics are chosen, a race should not become typecast in one role. If their racials penalise them in a way that makes them less able to play one class, it should be balanced with something that helps them to play that class in another way.
For example :

Dwarven hunter. Penalised by having lower Agility. A crossbow damage bonus / ICPR bonus or armour penetration bonus would help offset this, and feel "lore appropriate".