TBH, I was expecting the level cap raise. That's how some MMO evolve (some other introduce alternate advancement path without raising the level cap: EQ2, AoC, Rift, COH, ...). That's a choice and I can go with it.
What's in the raise that doesn't suit me? Mostly what Traur said:
Aside from running some quick GSes for teal moria gear while leveling I doubt most current leveling characters will ever wear BG, DN or OD gear, and now with a 10 level jump they won't wear Update 5 armor or Draig set either. That is 6 raids worth of gear that will be obsolete (Rift, BG, DN, OD, Draig, ToO) ...
What's the problem with the model? It is as if Moria, Mirkwood, RoI and RoR are separate games. They confine the playerbase in their level range and in their instance cluster. Those expansions, never effectively expanded the game, but rather replaced the previous game.
I know that the business model is the main driver here, and accept it as so.
But as a player, I complain because that's just the reason that drives me away from a game. Seeing my long hours (always more precious as RL time dedicated do gaming thins) completely wasted with the rolllout of an "update" or an "expansion", simply raises my frustration bar.
As I already tried to suggest, one of the things that should be looked after is replayability. Replacing content means that old content may never be played again. I am a latecomer to this game (started around mirkwood time) and my personal frustration is that I may not enter into Rift, OD, VM, BG, because there's nothing there worth for level capped players. Making those raids worth even for level capped players means extending the game and not simply replacing it.
Second, think about the time needed to get to the cap with an alt for a casual player (no, please, don't just think aout "money" selling us another Daeruth Stone). The more levels, the more time needed. I may be discouraged to roll an alt because the long task to 85 may seem too long and because with the new cap raise, less and less people will be found in lower zones. Meaning that the road to 85 should be played solo, and that's simply something that on an MMO I don't understand. I don't want content that can be done only in team, but please, think about some way to give teaming a meaning.
LOTR was about "fellowships". LOTRO seems forgetting the concept until you have capped your level.
As I said my 2 cents. For now, best of luck for your work.
@molleaeu: yeah, having started late myself, i never did rift, helegrod only the swift runs for the marks, no od etc.
Without scalability for the old raids, content gets limited more and more with each expansion, rather than, well, expanded.
Oh, for crying out loud..... the expansion is almost a year away, and you start complaining about level cap?? what the heck is wrong with 10 new levels? as someone else said earlier, it's the journey that counts, not (as much) the destination.
Who said it's not? Also, the journey doesn't need to involve yearly level cap increase.
Hardly a prereq, eh?
Originally Posted by Brethwyn_EU
Character progress is only natural, what's so wrong about it? Scaling may even be done to all instances by then. I fear some of you are way too proud of reaching the level cap and the shiny gear you've gotten doing the new level 75 instances. You know they'll be obsolete someday anyway.
Oh, don't we know. Also, please rethink the reasons people do end-game raids. Challenges even. It's not always for the shinies...or in the case of those I play with, it's rarely ever for the shinies. It's the accomplishment above all else and the fruits of your labor. And I already mentioned, you can get plenty of shinies (the most useful ones) doing everything on Tier 1.
Weow...now who's got it wrong?
Originally Posted by Brethwyn_EU
It's a GAME.. not a job. You don't have to do it if you don't want to. I think many players would stagnate early in the new regions if they didn't feel some kind of character progression. New armour yes, but as it is now leveling up is the most natural part of that progression.
Only beacuse Turbine says it is. Plenty of other ways to go about it. They simply choose the tried and true obvious route that RPGs have used for about 30 years now.
Originally Posted by Brethwyn_EU
When November/December (/Fall) comes I guess you all we be complaining about lack of content and progression anyway.
We'll be complaining about lack of content because the new 10 levels just invalidated even more content for us. Don't fault people for not feeling the "accomplishment" of beating grey mobs into the ground and "we" won't remind you you're only beating grey mobs into the ground.
Originally Posted by Brethwyn_EU
Turbine, I can't wait. But I want to wait. For the best expansion this far to be made into the best expansion this far.
It is an expansion, which means it is only logical to increase the level cap. Moria and RoI increased it by 10, and mirkwood, a mini-xpac by 5, so i see no reason not to raise level cap to 85. I don't really get all the complaints about it.
'Grinding' to level cap - Levelling really is a non-issue in lotro, since people are actually rallying for an exp-stopper since they feel levelling is too fast.
Gear being obsolete - Rohan is still some months away, so i can't see the need for complaints. Most people already have the complete set anyway. All your l33t gear will probably still be useful for questing until the early 80s, by which time you'll be wearing decent crafted/quest armors until level cap, then wear the new rep gear to be ready for endgame instances, after which you'll have your extra new shiny uber l33t new gear set. Same as what you did after mirkwood/RoI came out. What's the deal?
New xpac is 'too soon' - What? People are complaining that it's too soon? I for one does not want to wait twenty years to reach mordor. New content every year seems like a fine pace to me, and i'm hoping for gondor/minas tirith some time around early 2014.
I'm actually excited for this expansion, and have high hopes for it. RoI was a weak expansion, which brought no change to gameplay, and thus did not 'expand' the game, merely just added a couple new areas and a handful instances. RoR seems promising, and you guys need to wait until it's released or until we get more specifics before lashing out on it and jumping on the hate bandwagon. I'm sure there are better ways to spend the coming spring and summer months than to sit here in the forums brooding and complaining.
I'm actually excited for this expansion, and have high hopes for it. RoI was a weak expansion, which brought no change to gameplay, and thus did not 'expand' the game, merely just added a couple new areas and a handful instances. RoR seems promising, and you guys need to wait until it's released or until we get more specifics before lashing out on it and jumping on the hate bandwagon. I'm sure there are better ways to spend the coming spring and summer months than to sit here in the forums brooding and complaining.
So what's the difference here between rah-rahing the new expansion and griping about it? Shouldn't the rah-rahs be held in obeyance until it's seen to be rah-rah worthy?
To many people, free will is a license to rebel not against what is unjust or hard in life but against what is best for them and true.
if they are going to take the lvling to lvl 85 they might as well go all the way up to 100 for the max so we dont have to worry about lvling again for a very long time lol.
oh will there be a beta for riders of rohan just wondering?
I think it's all about Moria. You can see it everywhere.
Everything Turbine will ever release will be measured and compared to Moria. And Turbine realise that and thus they promise new region twice the size of Moria. Moria added 10 lvls and so every next expantion that they want to look big should add 10. If you add only 5 you go to Mirkwood teritory = bad. RoI proved this is wrong but still. RoI had to be 5lvls and RoR should be 5 too. This would allow all 65 content be still actual now and eventually in RoR too. Instead of having 4 instances now we could have 12 or more that will still give you XP, not just outdated loot.
Of course next expantion should give new levels, but 10 is just wrong. 5 keeps all previous content actual and active. You could see that in Mirkwood times - people were still actively running all Moria and Lorien instances and raids. Those who werent able to complete some on level were doing it on +5 and STILL GOT SOME XP. I don't know what is this desire from Turbine to kill their own content unless it's just cheaper in terms of computing power to push people to run 4 instances instead of 12...
I spend some time looking at the map and I think it will be good if Turbine revamp levels on the current regions:
Enedwaith 58-65 - comming from Eregion at 53 you could just move south to Enedwaith)
the new U6 region 70-75 (instead of ONLY 75) - this way you can come from Mirkwood at 66-67 and move south.
Who said it's not? Also, the journey doesn't need to involve yearly level cap increase.
Hardly a prereq, eh?
Nor does it need to involve new instances or new gear. The only thing it really needs is new quests and continuing the story. Personally, I prefer advancement as I do these - but we can do things your way if you'd like - the only real reason I play this game is for the story and the landscapes anyway, so it doesn't really phase me.
Originally Posted by Southpa
Oh, don't we know. Also, please rethink the reasons people do end-game raids. Challenges even. It's not always for the shinies...or in the case of those I play with, it's rarely ever for the shinies. It's the accomplishment above all else and the fruits of your labor. And I already mentioned, you can get plenty of shinies (the most useful ones) doing everything on Tier 1.
Weow...now who's got it wrong?
Sure, but even that challenge would get pretty old eventually - and based on what I've seen on the forums, well before the time it takes RoR to arrive. Hell, most of the difficulty in any instance boils down to strategy and communication - once you have those down, it's more or less cake.
Originally Posted by Southpa
Only beacuse Turbine says it is. Plenty of other ways to go about it. They simply choose the tried and true obvious route that RPGs have used for about 30 years now.
Ah, you must be one of those that believes in the fallacy of...what was it called? "lateral advancement" or something like that? That's where your level stays the same, but you can continue increasing your stats - which would make current content trivial, and basically end with the same result.
There's advancement, and there's no advancement - no matter what the gimmick, no matter what the name, advancement by any other name still trivializes content designed to challenge those with less advancement. Or, the advancement itself is trivial - and essentially pointless.
Originally Posted by Southpa
We'll be complaining about lack of content because the new 10 levels just invalidated even more content for us. Don't fault people for not feeling the "accomplishment" of beating grey mobs into the ground and "we" won't remind you you're only beating grey mobs into the ground.
I admire your inability to become bored with content, and probably one of the few I've met that would be perfectly happy running the same instances for years. However, you do realize - that if it weren't for the fact that advancement does trivialize content, that there'd be no reason to add more instances in the first place. Don't believe me? Look at the 'moors - that's what lack of advancement gets you in this game.
I mean, again, I'm just speaking from my own opinion; but I don't think any instance played for 4-5 straight years would be very fun by that point.
But y'know, you could always get a group together, roll new characters, take a couple of days leveling up to 50, and do all the SoA instances in level 50 gear until you get a few levels in, then delete, and repeat. Hell, you could probably start at level 45 for even more of a challenge. I mean, if it's just about challenge...then that would certainly solve it, and you'd have plenty of instances to choose from.
But personally, I'd imagine there'd be more challenge in beating a new instance, then constantly repeating the same instance over and over again.
It might well happen in other MMO's but this feels like too short a time for a ten level cap rise in LotRo. Lotro launched with a lvl cap of 50 in summer 2007. We were still at the dizzy heights of a 65 cap in December 2011 when Isengard launched. So comparatively, on a lotro scale of things, this is a big jump in a short time frame with a likely corresponding degrade on available cap-applicable content.
If they REALLY want to add a level cap increase it should be to level 80, that would then not completely invalidate ToO, FE, DU, Pits & Foundry ... It needs to be like when the level cap was at Mirkwood and everyone still ran Moria instances & raids... I have been in 65 groups getting sloppy and wiping in DD, yknow?
Currently we have only 6 instances at end game, and they're good instances.. But, Foundry is no t2 Lost Temple... We need proper challenging content instead of more facemelting grind. Why make this completely useless now? Sure I still run level 50 rift for fun, and in a newbie group thaurlach can still catch you off guard.. But with 95% of the game's content being like this, I feel it's somewhat unacceptable.. Turbine are cutting their customers short to make easy $$$
/unsigned to level cap increase to 85
Cal
Caitlyin, Captain --- Calead, Warden ---Rílaísseth, Champion --- Narthivor, RK --- Unguilant r5 Weaver
All on Laurelin --- Proud member of Les Adorables
the big question is wether it will have enough contents. Horse fights and such could be great fun (once bugs are sorted) but what about instances? Can Turbine create a large enough instance cluster in this time that can be run relatively smoothly without bugs? Seeing as they released Isengard instances late I got the feeling we might see the same thing over again, new content released without a cluster to grind
If they REALLY want to add a level cap increase it should be to level 80, that would then not completely invalidate ToO, FE, DU, Pits & Foundry ... It needs to be like when the level cap was at Mirkwood and everyone still ran Moria instances & raids... I have been in 65 groups getting sloppy and wiping in DD, yknow?
Currently we have only 6 instances at end game, and they're good instances.. But, Foundry is no t2 Lost Temple... We need proper challenging content instead of more facemelting grind. Why make this completely useless now? Sure I still run level 50 rift for fun, and in a newbie group thaurlach can still catch you off guard.. But with 95% of the game's content being like this, I feel it's somewhat unacceptable.. Turbine are cutting their customers short to make easy $$$
/unsigned to level cap increase to 85
Cal
This is February. The expansion isn't dropping until probably October or November. That's 8 months left to go - at least, and we're getting new content in the Spring, and if everything goes well, probably Summer and Fall as well. I'm going to bet that at least one of those updates are going to include new instances.
As far as invalidated content - as far as I'm concerned, a far better solution would be to just make every existing instance scale, from the original level it was at - all the way to whatever the current cap is. After all, that would solve the problem, aaand still let those of us who want to continue advancing to do so. Not to mention the simple fact that it seems that's Turbine's intent anyway (based off those instances that currently do scale).
The game has been developed, since the release of F2P, to make more money. And more. That's it. Everything they do is about making more money. It has nothing to do with making anyone happy. That's a side effect. If they make money doing something, they do it. Hence the gradual change of the store over time. All they lies they told prior to the release of F2P are hilarious now. People love the store with all the things they said would never be there. The new stat gear is just the latest example. Give it 6 months and people will love that, too.
It's about money. That's it. Get it through your head. A paid expansion every year will net them HUGE mounds of money. That's what they want. And they're gonna push it until the game dies. They already said they sold more copies of RoI than any other expansion they've ever done. They made more money from that. They want more of that.
It's really quite sickening to watch. They're like a drug addict craving more. They found what they can do to get more of their drug and they're pushing limits to see how much it will tick off the people they've surrounded themselves with. The 10 levels are money makers in SO many ways for them. Expansions, LIs, new pots, new gear, new crafting (need to be a subscriber to get the new tier, or buy something from the store). All this stuff can be on the store! MONEY! They're eclectically delirious from the high of the money. And they're pushing harder and harder to get more of their drug.
Oh, and as a casual player (only one 75, that I just got this past week), an expansion this soon does not make me happy. It's too early. I won't have time to enjoy all my characters, and I'll certainly not have time for the instances I bought.
Why will you not have time to "have time to enjoy all my characters, and I'll certainly not have time for the instances I bought"? You do not have to buy the new expansion on release. Nobody is putting a gun to your head and making you purchase it. Even if for some weird reason you do purchase it (considaring how against you are I would be suprised if you did) you do not have to enter the new areas until you want to.
kinda tired of the level then LI, then trait grind pattern. One of things I like about the game currently is the ability skip content areas I don't like as much- mostly Angmar and the North Downs. I don't skip the whole regions but I don't bother with every quest out there and I like it that way. Now in Evendim or Eregion I do every quest I can because I enjoy adventuring in those areas. I like the ability to level up in different regions rather than in one set region.
So I don't really like the idea of an increased level cap. I would much rather have an alternate are to level to 75 besides dunland which I am currently very burnt out on.
Place was overrun with rats when we moved in. The spearwives killed the nasty buggers. Now the place is overrun with spearwives. There’s days I want the rats back~Dolorous Edd
Before RoI I had no hope of killing even a single boss in OD or BG, now I have completed both. Before RoI I just COULD. NOT. DO. Lost Temple and Sari-Surma challenges, despite many attempts, now both are within my limits. Before RoI I had to find groups for doing slayer deeds in instances like Barad Gularan, Fil Gashan or Mirror-Halls, now I can do that on my own. That's obvious character progression here and why the hell do you want to deny me that anyway?
P.S. You say level cap raise makes old content "trivial, useless and obsolete". I say it makes it "accessible" to casual people and that is a good thing.
I fully agree with what you say, however, I can also see the other side of the coind. They say a level cap raise make old content useles: well it does, if all you care about is the drops from that content. If, as do I, you like to just "see" the dungeon/instance and are not overly bothered with getting the drops "on level", then it still has value.
But then, I am an extreemly casual player and have never done a raid since starting to play in open beta.
For those insisting that keeping the level the same and adding more content of the same range is a good thing, please explain how that would work in favor of the player who enjoys doing new content.
I have completed the majority of quests in the game as a solo/duo player and just finished up a bunch of quests/deeds in Isengard as well as Heathfells. I might from time to time fail an encounter's objective, but I seldom am bested by a creature. I'm geared out about as good as one can be without doing raids and instances.
What would be the benefit of entering the new expansion to do trivial content aside from experiencing the storyline with little to no challenge? Pretending that they mirror ROR to be a mirror or alternate path of advancement weighed against ROI, then the starter and mid range areas would be light blue to grey as ROI is to me now.
Being geared as I am now with the skills that I have now, obviously the blue/white creatures would offer the same lack of challenge that they offer me now.
There would be little sense in raising the levels of the LI since I will be facing the same sort of challenges and creatures, so after 9 months to a year of leveling my LI's they would be capped out, then there is little to no progression in that area in the RoR.
What gear rewards? Boost my stats even higher to be able to accomplish what is a walk in the park already? Sorry, a new look won't cut it for me either. Cute, but not what I had in mind for advancement.
New instances/raids/skirmishes to gain what exactly? It's a RoI Part II and what could they offer as a reward that would trump what I have without making me a demi-god?
Crafting? New resources for an item with new icons and almost the same stats? Not much glory in that at all.
So yes, the person who asked that new zones be provided to eliminate the need to do the 50-75 content in the existing zones (Moria, Mirkwood, RoI) would be facilitated. We could skip major parts of the story that we don't care for and have alternate paths to the same destination. Those however at the destination already would have little to look forward to and no challenge ahead.
For those insisting that keeping the level the same and adding more content of the same range is a good thing, please explain how that would work in favor of the player who enjoys doing new content.
I enjoyed Lothlorien when it was released without a level cap increase. Same goes for Enedwaith. The Turtle raid and DN raid were added on-level for raiders. Same with the OD raid and instance cluster. You can take it all the way back to level 50 with Helegrod / Rift. Adding new on-level content has always been successful.
Isn't one of the biggest complaints from people who prefer questing that they out-level the quests in a region before they are ready to move on? With horizontal progression that is not an issue.
"For them to perceive the advantage of defeating the enemy, they must also have their rewards." ~Sun Tzu
For those insisting that keeping the level the same and adding more content of the same range is a good thing, please explain how that would work in favor of the player who enjoys doing new content.
While I'm neither here nor there on a level cap increase, to give you the explanation you're asking for-- if a player truly does enjoy doing new content, then there's no need for an incentive such as a new level cap to do the new content. Enjoy it? Then do it for the content's sake, not the reward of seeing higher numbers. I think what you rather meant to say is a player who enjoys seeing the numbers change under their name.
If you're capped now, maxed out as you say you are, then it'll be the same with a new cap. Racing one's way to a cap, no matter what it is, whether level, stats, traits or gear, makes the cap pointless. Why get to a new cap in a few weeks just to have to wait another year to do it again?
New content without a new cap is no disregard for leveling-- it's content for the sake of content. There doesn't always need to be "progression" to enjoy content. Deeds, with new or higher virtues, can take the place of level increase. Mobs of the same level, but with tougher abilities, whether sigs, elites, or just plain old tougher normals, can take the place of level increase. And simply exploring a new zone, seeing the sights, doing new quests and getting new reputation-- there are any number of ways to make new content enjoyable without having to raise the numbers from 75 to 85.
To many people, free will is a license to rebel not against what is unjust or hard in life but against what is best for them and true.
Now RoR is about to launch late this year. RoR is supposed to be much bigger than MoM in area size (was it twice the size?). Taking that into the equation... I think 10 levels may (or may not) be enough for the size of the area. Think of the time you spent in MoM and how you leveled. Now think of a new area twice the size and still only having 10 levels.
Would you really be happy going through an area twice the size of MoM and get very little from it (or at best the same stuff from RoI)? Do you honestly think you would even bother with most of the content if there wasn't some motivation to go through?
Sure there are people who go out just to sightsee, but how many of them would go through the majority of the content if all there was at the end was a nice little pat on the back and oh here's a piece of equipment that gives "10 whole new stat points!" and the glorious feeling that you went through all of it just to say you did it without screaming (too loudly) about everything being the same (just on new mounts) and having to "grind" through all of the quests even when you didn't really get anything for them since the equipment from RoI wouldn't really need to be changed out.
After all.. its just an alternate level up area to RoI.. except its twice the size as MoM...
It might be fun for the new people who have never been to either place, but everyone else sitting at level cap right now would be complaining left and right.. you know.. like several of them are now.
Women Are Like the Ocean
They're vast and deep and beautiful, and once a month.....
It's Shark Week!
Now RoR is about to launch late this year. RoR is supposed to be much bigger than MoM in area size (was it twice the size?). Taking that into the equation... I think 10 levels may (or may not) be enough for the size of the area. Think of the time you spent in MoM and how you leveled. Now think of a new area twice the size and still only having 10 levels.
Would you really be happy going through an area twice the size of MoM and get very little from it (or at best the same stuff from RoI)? Do you honestly think you would even bother with most of the content if there wasn't some motivation to go through?
Sure there are people who go out just to sightsee, but how many of them would go through the majority of the content if all there was at the end was a nice little pat on the back and oh here's a piece of equipment that gives "10 whole new stat points!" and the glorious feeling that you went through all of it just to say you did it without screaming (too loudly) about everything being the same (just on new mounts) and having to "grind" through all of the quests even when you didn't really get anything for them since the equipment from RoI wouldn't really need to be changed out.
After all.. its just an alternate level up area to RoI.. except its twice the size as MoM...
It might be fun for the new people who have never been to either place, but everyone else sitting at level cap right now would be complaining left and right.. you know.. like several of them are now.
+Rep for a well stated post.
I think a good part of seeing and feeling your progression in a game is that many of us, even those who play quite a bit are casual in nature. We walk into a zone and see creatures well above our level. There is a certain fear/caution in how we approach that new area. We look forward into growing into the zone.
That's hard to gauge when the creatures simply have more advanced tactics than we have. Some players are great at the whole min/max thing, many are not. Most basic players gauge yard trash mobs by morale and level, not tactics. Take into consideration now some of the complaints that we have about Pick Up Groups in that we know that not all level 75 players have the same skill/tactical training. Without a visible change in level we would be forced to explain that the level 75 mobs in RoI are not the same as the level 75 mobs in RoR. Can I see your resume please? Sorry, your setup for RoI, not RoR, sorry.
Level is an easy disqualifying gauge. This is a difficult encounter. The mobs are level 85 and tough to beat even with a capable group. You are level 75 and would not be an asset to this group. Sorry about that.
It is stupid. It is just going to lead up to about a lvl 200 character going into Mordor, it will just get silly. I think every 2 expansions they should raise the level cap
Nothing. As long as those 200 levels bring more than arbitrary number. RoI model of "level cap upgrade" brings nothing else.
Originally Posted by Zarador
What would be the benefit of entering the new expansion with little to no challenge?
You already stated you are seldom bested by a creature. Isn't that a sign you already find little challenge in the current state of the game? We can pretend that dealing with red mobs is a challenge, but really? Higher chance to miss, slightly higher mitigations and damage dealt. That's it, here's our challenge coming from current leveling system. Is it something worth voting for?
Great River didn't raise level cap, and somehow we got Limlight Gorge. It's not like those mobs were anything special, once you complete initial queue of CC/DPS/kite skills, you just have to repeat it 10-20-30 times until "it" dies. But hey, there are always Nemesis mobs and teams of trolls during unlocking dailies. And yet, this is miles ahead RoI - you could finish entire landscape set with 65lv LIs with little problems and slap some jewellery/armour rewards on the way. So yeah, "challenges"... it would be good to use them as argument - if they were actually arriving with level cap upgrades.
Originally Posted by Zarador
[*]There would be little sense in raising the levels of the LI.
There was little sense in upgrading LIs in RoI and bother with additional waste of currency until you reached 75lv. So, yeah, instances were the real reason to upgrade. Forges or Roots - which one requires better gear? Which one arrived earlier?
Originally Posted by Zarador
[*]What gear rewards? Boost my stats even higher to be able to accomplish what is a walk in the park already? Sorry, a new look won't cut it for me either. Cute, but not what I had in mind for advancement.
I have bad news. That's what we got in RoI. That's what we might as well get in RoR. Gear is already primary factor of our progression. Unless leveling is rehauled, nothing is going to change. We will upgrade our characters with +166 Might and +166 Vit gear. While 10 more levels will give us... permission to use that gear. Whoopittydoo.
Originally Posted by Zarador
[*]New instances/raids/skirmishes to gain what exactly? It's a RoI Part II and what could they offer as a reward that would trump what I have without making me a demi-god?
RoF gives jewellery that is on-par with ToO, especially before it was slightly upgraded. So graid-level gear without actual raids, without level cap upgrade, with small content update. Hail, half-Zeus.
Originally Posted by Zarador
[*]Crafting? New resources for an item with new icons and almost the same stats? Not much glory in that at all.
Not sure what you mean. Crafting has been upgraded with GR. Might as well upgrade it further, but gate products behind rep AND something else. Deeds - like in ToO case. Quests, storyline progression, achievements... It's not like there is no way to "have nice things" in this game.
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How come it is constantly about a choice between either level cap upgrade or bland new regions?
How about meaningful level cap upgrade, with either new skills of variations of them based on stances/other variables, with class deeds, with proper horizontal upgrades that WERE part of this game, but somehow died after SoM, with a way to keep old content alive. How about levels that are not so worthless?
*reality check*
So, we can't get those expensive bonuses that could (sacrilege!) make the game more complex or challenging? Ok... so... how about not pretending that +10 of naked levels is not neutered character progression? Anything listed above brings more to it and is - probably - still cheaper to introduce.
Sadly, we are not choosing between "nice leveling cap upgrade" and "nice non-cap upgrade". Everything we've seen so far, with RoI as prime example, points towards "worthless cap upgrade". After that "awesomeness" of RoR level cap arrives and Turbine moves to another expansion - I'd rather have "nice non-cap upgrade", thank you.
Also...
I wouldn't be worried about "it is hard to figure out which zone is 75 and which is 75+++". Gate access behind small number of quests in vanilla 75. Gate access behind storyline progression. Gate access to segments of expansions behind certain challenges that can help you measure your character. Make gating soft, easy to overcome if someone insists "I want to go there NAOW". OK, but hey, you asked for it. So... start dying.
Or don't even bother with gating, just use quest descriptions, proper dialogue hints, advices about special mechanics or mobs you can encounter, weave all those inventions into storyline. Provide weaker mobs in earlier content as training wheels. All that remembering that the lowest common denominator doesn't have to apply everywhere - especially regarding reading skills in a bloody RPG game.
All I can say to all this complaining is: welcome to MMOville, enjoy your stay.
Or, don't, & go do something else -- because, honestly, MMOs probably aren't your cup o' tea. Because EVERY MMO that releases expacs tends to raise the level cap as well, & EVERY time, "end game raiders" throw a hissy fit about their "hard fought" gear getting "invalidated" & so forth.
Whatever. Play, or don't play.
Fare you well ... let your life proceed by its own design
Nothing to tell ... let the words be yours, I'm done with mine.
For those insisting that keeping the level the same and adding more content of the same range is a good thing, please explain how that would work in favor of the player who enjoys doing new content.
I can see you'll be skipping the Great River - after all, it's just more level 75 content.
But lots of folks are enjoying it, just like they enjoyed OD and other strictly 'non-essential' content.
That's about the only argument I can make. I prefer to see some diversity. I also dislike the way the game gets shrunken when the level cap goes up this quickly. There's no way my alts are going to be able to find groups for more than maybe a couple of the 50-65 instances. For that matter, if you want to actually play with other people, you need to skip instances entirely on alts and just powerlevel to 75 (soon 85) ASAP.
Dunland and GR are buggy. They are also excruciatingly linear. Miss one quest, for whatever reason, and your progress is entirely stalled. With the older content I have a choice of where to quest and what quests I do. With the new, I don't. And again, there's the shrinkage problem - you get to cap in two weeks or you play solo constantly.
One of the many reasons RoR won't be worth it for me, though I recognise it is for some people. I'm not a hard core raider, btw, but I do like challenges on level (the ones you can actually do because there are other people around to do them with). When the level cap was 65, you could take your time, same as 50. With 50, 60, and 65 you didn't need to rush to be able to experience content. With a 20 level jump in one year plus an extremely linear questing mechanic these days, now you do.
The game used to have a lot of replayability value, but it's lost that, though I know that's because of the micropayment grinder transition and it's simply about getting money out of people short-term. Which does horrible things to both quality and variety.
I play games to have fun. Being locked into a race to level cap through an increasingly rigidly gated questing system, and doing it all solo - not my idea of fun. I do realise other people find it fun, though, so I can just go play something else - good that there's more than one game out there, but I wish the one set in Middle-earth hadn't fallen into this sorry state. Still, it did. That's just how it goes sometimes.
I am guessing we will see a lot of zones being "re-leveled" come Riders of Rohan, so Dunalnd itself, and the surrounding areas, may become, say, level 75-80 zones instead of 65-75.
I'm amazed. We're getting a huge new expansion to the game with new content and new gear, and half the people on this thread don't like that? You've got to be kidding me.
To the complainers: why are you playing LOTRO? Go find a game you enjoy, if new content and levels are such a bad idea.
Really, this is one of the more astonishing threads I've seen. Proof, if any is needed, that some people will complain about anything.
I am guessing we will see a lot of zones being "re-leveled" come Riders of Rohan, so Dunalnd itself, and the surrounding areas, may become, say, level 75-80 zones instead of 65-75.
I doubt that. Dunland will stay as a zone for people going from 65-75, with the Great River as a supplement for people that get tired of Dunland.
Now, the Great River I could see as a possible zone for releveling, going from L71-75, similar to Enedwaith.
I'm amazed. We're getting a huge new expansion to the game with new content and new gear, and half the people on this thread don't like that? You've got to be kidding me.
To the complainers: why are you playing LOTRO? Go find a game you enjoy, if new content and levels are such a bad idea.
Really, this is one of the more astonishing threads I've seen. Proof, if any is needed, that some people will complain about anything.
Actually it's a proof some people have troubles with reading >.<
Go ahead and link specific piece with complaining about how bad it is to get new "content" and new "levels" just because... they are content and levels and that's bad in itself.
Gear? Yeah, it's awesome, we get new gear, +100 to stats, like this is a reason to play LOTRO. If it is for you, then I am afraid it is not reading problem - more like understanding one.
Originally Posted by Armaius
I doubt that. Dunland will stay as a zone for people going from 65-75, with the Great River as a supplement for people that get tired of Dunland.
Now, the Great River I could see as a possible zone for releveling, going from L71-75, similar to Enedwaith.
Yeah, it was a good move, second leveling path and all that - I would be surprised if Turbine decided to re-design so heavily.
Last edited by Ferthcott; Apr 14 2012 at 12:10 PM.
I guess you still haven't realized you are playing an MMO.
Almost Every. Single. MMO. Ever. has raised the level cap with paid expansions. It's a proven formula to both sell units and keep players progressing through your game and story.
Heck, whenever I do GR quests, I miss getting experience. I do have fun, but the quests and gear truly is worthless because there is nothing better than my level to use the rewards on.
I'd much rather fight monsters 5 levels above me than on level, because I DO lose to red monsters sometimes.
The thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty forever beyond its reach.” - J.R.R. Tolkien
Actually it's a proof some people have troubles with reading >.<
Go ahead and link specific piece with complaining about how bad it is to get new "content" and new "levels" just because... they are content and levels and that's bad in itself.
Gear? Yeah, it's awesome, we get new gear, +100 to stats, like this is a reason to play LOTRO. If it is for you, then I am afraid it is not reading problem - more like understanding one.
Not at all. I get that people don't want to have to go through another ten levels in order to get to the end game content they obviously care the most about, and they don't like having their hard won gear not be the best in the game any more. But for those of us who don't want to play the same raids over and over and over again, new landscapes and new storylines are a welcome thing.
If you want to run the turtle raid in Moria for the 30th time, the solution is simple. Once you get an alt to the appropriate level, don't run any more quests with them. Save them for the on-level group content you enjoy.
I stand by what I said: if someone sees the normal questing/exploration routine as a grind, and if it's become a chore, why are they playing? When the day comes that LOTRO bores me, I'll take a break, not demand that Turbine stop releasing new content. When they stop releasing new content, it'll mean that the game is no longer generating profit, and there'll be no end-game raiding for anyone.
Last edited by Twitcheetwitch; Apr 14 2012 at 02:10 PM.
Sigh, no, you are using assumptions about motivations of others instead of reading what is directly in front of you.
Level cap upgrade is not "bad" because it is "new cap".
Level cap upgrade done in RoI mode, with failing LI system, with obsolete content AND with diminishing character progression is worthless. Exploration/questing is completely independent from "levels".
There. Entire thread mutilated to provide quick recap.
And hey, in order not to mutilate it too much - just because RoI brought bland leveling routine doesn';t mean that "this is MMO way". It doesn't have to be. And it WAS NOT in LOTRO before.
Last edited by Ferthcott; Apr 14 2012 at 03:13 PM.
I'm amazed. We're getting a huge new expansion to the game with new content and new gear, and half the people on this thread don't like that? You've got to be kidding me.
To the complainers: why are you playing LOTRO? Go find a game you enjoy, if new content and levels are such a bad idea.
Really, this is one of the more astonishing threads I've seen. Proof, if any is needed, that some people will complain about anything.
Its the GRIND!!!! I wanted RoI so much in mirkwood times just to get new content, but now as i think of it...I'd rather still be playing mirkwood >_>
I dont want to grind the new Lis, i dont want to kill those damn wargs and collect their hides AGAIN, leveling should be an alternative thingy in the game, not something we are forced to do every single time, OR we could do the same way as was in moria-mirk, that the moria gera (ToO etc now) would be useable and decent/good for the level, which could be 80.
I'd be fine with the level cap being raised today, asides from lack of levelling content. If there wasn't a raise with RoR, what would be the point in questing? I'm not a raider, so end-game for me is just waiting for the next expansion, and that would seem pointless without a level cap raise.
The one thing I'm worried about is what level we'll end up at when we get to Mount Doom! Seems like it will be 105 or 115 with the current rate of expansions, and even 105 - the earliest we could probably get there - is going to be very intimidating for me when I finally dust of my many level 20s... 85 levels to level cap is a lot!
I'd be fine with the level cap being raised today, asides from lack of levelling content. If there wasn't a raise with RoR, what would be the point in questing? I'm not a raider, so end-game for me is just waiting for the next expansion, and that would seem pointless without a level cap raise.
I love raiding and I've been grinding for the new armour for a while, but I'd love it if the cap was raised. Honestly, since the developers make it so that the majority of the game is solo friendly, the gear you just earned can last through the next 5 levels at least. I'm not sure why everyone is complaining.
"Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever." -Mohandas Gandhi
Repeating what I've said many times since I joined way back in 2008. I would love for there to be no level cap at all.
I took my 75 Hunter through the Great River to sight-see and grab travel locations, but I haven't done a single quest there on my 11 characters on Nimrodel. I will when the cap is raised.
My 4 toons at current cap have done different sections of Dunland, but I still haven't seen the quests past where you meet the Ent by the river, outside the ring of Orthanc. They will all go back and finish up content there once the cap is raised.
Aside from leveling new toons, I am having an absolute blast soloing Carn Dum and Urugarth (for deeds) on my capped characters. I also do other old deed content and work on faction reputation for the old world renown title, or max out my crafting.
When the cap raises to 85, I'll be questing in Dunland & the Great River. If it was raised now, i'd be doing that, as questing is what I enjoy most. But if the XP stops, so do I... unless the quest is well below 9 levels under me, then I'll clear it.
If they didn't design the game with level caps in place, I personally think a whole lot more attention to character progression could be paid. But as it stands now, we get marketing blocks of content designed with marketing as the priority. Until the bulk of the game is out and ready for consumers to use, I see any solutions as nothing more than bandaids. The cap raise may be a partial bandaid, but it is the easiest one to return to and apply solutions to once the full extent of content is on the live servers.
So for now, I'll take the level increases, because even if they are not as meaningful as the first 50 levels, they still do represent my ability to explore & deed in a place like Carn Dum solo. It is nice to actually spend a couple minutes taking in the view of the area you just cleared and absorbing the details and layout; rather than rushing ahead with a group that sometimes feels a little too OCD for my tastes.
Ultimately, I still think designing a game with arbitrary cap gates, is antiquated.
As it stands now, when Riders of Rohan comes out in the fall I am going to be questing in Dunland and the Great River, and only if the level cap is raised for everyone; like it was with RoI.
Repeating what I've said many times since I joined way back in 2008. I would love for there to be no level cap at all.
I took my 75 Hunter through the Great River to sight-see and grab travel locations, but I haven't done a single quest there on my 11 characters on Nimrodel. I will when the cap is raised.
My 4 toons at current cap have done different sections of Dunland, but I still haven't seen the quests past where you meet the Ent by the river, outside the ring of Orthanc. They will all go back and finish up content there once the cap is raised.
Aside from leveling new toons, I am having an absolute blast soloing Carn Dum and Urugarth (for deeds) on my capped characters. I also do other old deed content and work on faction reputation for the old world renown title, or max out my crafting.
When the cap raises to 85, I'll be questing in Dunland & the Great River. If it was raised now, i'd be doing that, as questing is what I enjoy most. But if the XP stops, so do I... unless the quest is well below 9 levels under me, then I'll clear it.
If they didn't design the game with level caps in place, I personally think a whole lot more attention to character progression could be paid. But as it stands now, we get marketing blocks of content designed with marketing as the priority. Until the bulk of the game is out and ready for consumers to use, I see any solutions as nothing more than bandaids. The cap raise may be a partial bandaid, but it is the easiest one to return to and apply solutions to once the full extent of content is on the live servers.
So for now, I'll take the level increases, because even if they are not as meaningful as the first 50 levels, they still do represent my ability to explore & deed in a place like Carn Dum solo. It is nice to actually spend a couple minutes taking in the view of the area you just cleared and absorbing the details and layout; rather than rushing ahead with a group that sometimes feels a little too OCD for my tastes.
Ultimately, I still think designing a game with arbitrary cap gates, is antiquated.
As it stands now, when Riders of Rohan comes out in the fall I am going to be questing in Dunland and the Great River, and only if the level cap is raised for everyone; like it was with RoI.
I'm having a little trouble understanding your point, since I agree completely with everything you say with the exception of the first sentence. All my capped characters stop questing when they reach level cap or shortly after. Since they aren't really progressing, it just stops being fun.
But that doesn't mean I want to see level caps removed, it just means I enjoy having something to work toward while questing. If I'm not progressing through questing I might as well spend my time progressing via virtue deeds, or spend time exploring places I couldn't explore very well previously. Or playing alts who are still progressing. In other words, I too enjoy going back to "gray" content because it gives me a chance to experience that content in a deeper way, on my terms, in my timeframe. If there was no level cap I'd never get to do that, because content would never go gray. I guess what I don't understand is how I would be better able to do all the stuff I enjoy that is 'below level' without a level cap.
I'm having a little trouble understanding your point, since I agree completely with everything you say with the exception of the first sentence. All my capped characters stop questing when they reach level cap or shortly after. Since they aren't really progressing, it just stops being fun.
But that doesn't mean I want to see level caps removed, it just means I enjoy having something to work toward while questing. If I'm not progressing through questing I might as well spend my time progressing via virtue deeds, or spend time exploring places I couldn't explore very well previously. Or playing alts who are still progressing. In other words, I too enjoy going back to "gray" content because it gives me a chance to experience that content in a deeper way, on my terms, in my timeframe. If there was no level cap I'd never get to do that, because content would never go gray. I guess what I don't understand is how I would be better able to do all the stuff I enjoy that is 'below level' without a level cap.
Essentially, if there was no cap now, you could be questing in the Great river and getting XP. You could level past 75 NOW and you'd keep leveling as long as you could find quests to do, or mobs that weren't gray.
You could progress in level until that ACTUALLY became impossible to do, rather than having it forced as a cap.
Once a mob turns gray, it no longer rewards XP. Quest reward a set amount of XP based off their level +difficulty.
Only the people questing in great river who aren't at cap are getting experience for their efforts. Everyone else is doing it for free, or an arbitrary stat gain on equipment swap, or they want that reputation now.
But no cap means you level, until you can't level anymore. Think of the creative ways one would have to come up with to get the Highest level! ... ok so maybe I am the only one who has thought about that.
I'll bet I could have a character (RIGHT NOW) at, or very close to level 95, maybe higher. =D
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