Thread: Level Cap to 85?

Originally Posted by Reniannen

Ok, but you still have half a year worth of time to "grind in advance", don't you?

It doesn't really matter. Grinding sucks. If I have to grind in advance, or when the expansion comes. I don't want to grind. Moreover, it's the same grind. Didn't I already grind that out twice and now I have to grind it again? Give us something new to grind at, if you insist we grind again. Better yet, come up with systems that provide entertainment without the crushing demotivation of ruining the results of our previous hard work.

Do you regularly fight 8 mobs at once? I don't, not even in instances.

Yes, more frequently than you might imagine. However to keep it in perspective, I would level PA to perhaps +3 at most, but it's a very expensive legacy to level, hence wanting it at tier 6 to keep costs down for other things. 5 targets at once is very common.

Originally Posted by Tromador

I don't even mind the overland quests, that's all fine.

What I object to is that I've done all that work to get my endgame armour from the raids, levelled up my weapons, skirmished (or bought TP) to upgrade legacies, so on and so forth and then we have to start all over again.

I love raiding, I love instancing, I enjoy questing.

I loathe grinding.

Ya, this is why I don't bother trying to get end-game neet sheet anymore. It's not worth it unless you have only one or two classes you play and enjoy group content exclusively. I know some players of this persuasion, who wouldn't be caught dead a month into a release not to have all the latest/best gear. Happily, I am not one of them.

On the other hand, for those who don't need the top gear at all times, the acquisition of a War-steed and the possibilities of character advancement that provides is quite captivating. Add in the skirmish soldier on landscape, and level cap raise to 85 makes sense.

RoR looks awesome and engaging.

Originally Posted by bastiat1

Cap increases are great for casual and solo players. It's not for end-gamers. It sucks for end-gamers. It really really sucks. I mean it really really really sucks. There is NOTHING more boring for a raider than killing the 100,000th wargs in a stupid landscape quest just to get to 85- NOTHING. Even if I do it from a horse. There is nothing more demotivating than knowing that as soon as you get new gear, from a an incredibly difficult raid you've been learning for months, you will end up replacing it with new gear from an overland quest that your two year old son could have just as easily acquired. NOTHING.

This is why I find raiding no fun if it is only done for the gear and not the experience of it. If you are doing it only for the gear, well, I hope you enjoyed the extra effort required to get it. My personal experience is that once raiders get their gear, they are bored and go play other games until a new set of gear comes out, so I would have thought that more gear to grind would be a good thing for raiders.

Originally Posted by bastiat1

There is nothing at all creative or challenging about overland quests. They aren't conducive to grouping- you know- the "multiplayer" part, because they are so easy they don't require grouping. Overland quests are filler. They are cheap filler that is easy to design and to placate the non-raiding masses. There is a place for them. Up to about 50 they make sense while you are still learning the game and learning your class. But after that the inanity and the repetition is just too much to bear. I have had very consistent and motivated raiders in my kin quit with Isen solely because of the boring grind to 75.

Okay, now you're just ranting. Quests are not easy, cheap, or filler. The perspective that the only thing worthwhile to do in the game is raiding, for gear, is really a rather narrow view of LOTRO, or any MMO for that matter.

Originally Posted by bastiat1

Grinding 10 more levels is not funny, and it's not fun. I honestly don't even know who thinks it's fun. I get that there are a lot of soloers out there. But you can create more quests, even new skills locked behind new quests- challenging quests even, without increasing the level cap, which does nothing except destroy all of your old content (see the great Ost Dunhoth in the trash bin) and create the illusion of progression.

I know Turbine is commercially motivated, and I don't fault them for that. I'm sure they've done the math and cheap filler brings in more subs than no cap increase and a raid. I guess this game is just leaving what I want out of a game behind.

Well, I must say your perspective that questing is grinding is different. But you must realize that many players find questing and developing a character to be fun. I am fairly certain that not many developers would agree with you that quests are just "cheap filler". A considerable amount of time, resources, and thought went into the quest lines in Isengard. I didn't particularly like that there was not a lot of different quest choices for leveling, but the quest storylines themselves were very well done, and you don't achieve that by being lazy and going for the cheap shot.

And, in my experience, raiders generally take about 2 or 3 days tops to "grind" to level cap, so it is a bit ironic to complain that a cap increase is a hardship for raiders. You might also want to consider what "War-steed armor and skills" and the presence of the skirmish soldier on landscape might mean for that boring, easy filler content you dread.

Originally Posted by Tromador

It doesn't really matter. Grinding sucks. If I have to grind in advance, or when the expansion comes. I don't want to grind. Moreover, it's the same grind. Didn't I already grind that out twice and now I have to grind it again? Give us something new to grind at, if you insist we grind again. Better yet, come up with systems that provide entertainment without the crushing demotivation of ruining the results of our previous hard work.

I said "grind". You are going to be running instances, in those instance you will be getting IXP whether you like it or not, as a result those LIs will basically grind themselves.

Originally Posted by GalateaOrea

And, in my experience, raiders generally take about 2 or 3 days tops to "grind" to level cap, so it is a bit ironic to complain that a cap increase is a hardship for raiders. You might also want to consider what "War-steed armor and skills" and the presence of the skirmish soldier on landscape might mean for that boring, easy filler content you dread.

It took me considerably longer because it was so boring and so incredibly demotivating. I just got my 2nd and 3rd alt to 75 this week. It was an incredible relief. I was thinking "well at least I won't have to bore myself to tears for another 2 years." Whoops- I spoke too soon!

Mounted combat and skirm soldiers are just a side show. You will never use either in any serious raid. You won't even be able to use them in 90% of the content of the game. It's a little mini-game they are developing, and frankly I seriously question whether it is worth the trouble.

I'm not saying they shouldn't have all of these overland quests or new areas that the majority of the players seem to like so much. I'm saying don't destroy ALL previous content by tying those dumb quests to a level cap raise. Enedwaith was perfect. The cap didnt go up, raiders got a new raid, and casuals got a big area to explore and a lot of quests to complete and reputation to gain. The quest rewards were even pretty cool for solo players (gold-level items) so there was real progression. There is absolutely no reason that this can't be THE MODEL going forward.

There seems to be this myth that you have to increase the level cap to increase progression. That is completely false and just a traditional lazy model. There is absolutely no reason they couldnt release Rohan with no cap at all. You can get progression many other ways. You can have continued gear progression the way we had from Moria through Ost Dunhoth where the armour upgrades were moderate but interesting enough to add a lot of variety. You can add a Trait or Virtue slot or new Class Skills. You can gate those upgrades by completing an interesting and complicated class quest like the Level 45 Class Quests. There was nothing remotely interesting about the new skills granted in Isen- they were just bestowed upon level. They could revamp the LI system to allow continued progression without raising the cap. They could add any number of little perks (think Destiny buffs that become permanent) upon completing some complicated quest series. The options are really endless.

People just don't seem to get that cap raises destroy content by making it trivial. I don't know why people want less content in the game rather than more. I honestly don't get it.

Originally Posted by Malachi108

And now, compare the amount of casual players with the amount of hardcore raiders and see whom Turbine should to look after.

Right. No one would or could deny that. Most people choose the paths of least resistance. That's a fact of life. However, it doesn't mean anyone's feelings are any less valid than yours.

Originally Posted by Malachi108

Well, for me RoI quests were great.

Glad you liked them. I thought the storyline was decent, but the means through it were just the same old facerolling autopilot. Sorry, I do not find running crates around or auto-attacking a dozen mobs to death "entertaining". There is no thrill in that. There is no variability. It is linear and obvious. It's the exact same thing we've been doing for 5 years with precious little ebellishment. I'd say I enjoyed about 5% of the RoI landscape quests. Maybe.

Originally Posted by Malachi108

I would have that and more any time over some scripted instances that you grind over and over for shinies.

Why do casual players (you don't mind if I call you that, I assume) always think we only do it for "shinies"? Speak nothing about the thought that goes into it, the coordination involved, the trial and error, the camaraderie and enjoyment of your company, the thrill and satisfaction when you all finally get it. Right, I only do it for shinies... Cripes, we don't even need to raid to get good shinies anymore, so what's your point exactly - other than trying to demean the "minority"? You don't know what motivates the minority because you're the majority.

Originally Posted by Malachi108

For me, the instances are worth as much as quests: do them once to see what it's about, then maybe repeat a few more times to get quests/deeds done. I'll probably finish Orthanc raid by Fall, seeing how pug-gable T1 is, but I couldn't care less about wiping in it for weeks and months trying to finish all those challenges. Maybe when the cap is 85...

You know, they used to just nerf things a little. But even without that, I feel confident that anyone with 3 fingers and a partial lobotomy could eventually conquer Orthanc on T1. Guess you'll never know if you don't try. Challenge, my friend. Why is the "majority" so intimidated by the presence of challenge? Intimidated to the point that they have to keep reminding folks like me that we're the minority.

Originally Posted by Malachi108

As for raiding? Level caps makes it casual too. As L75, I was finally able to finish both Barad Guldur and Ost Dunhoth raids and actually see what there in them. So, more levels with new expansion has no downsides to it.

For you it has no "downsides". For you.
The simple truth, though, is they need end-game instanced repeatable content - level increase or not - or lots of people will just stop playing because there's nothing to do. Both the majority and the minority. So while the minority who strives to complete raid challenges on-level might seem the logical sect for Turbine to leave behind, it will never happen. There will always be something there for us, even if we have to play the majority's game for a while in order to get there.

Originally Posted by Malachi108

Well, for me RoI quests were great. We got to see a touching story unfold in Trum Dreng, changed Galtrev from a slave labor camp into a city free once more, cared about the fates of Adraas and Mabon between their disappearance and resurgence months later, led an epic assault on Wulf's Cleft, lost a friend during a sacrifice in Grawenwood, got friendly with the Rohirrim and held Dol Baran with them. Not to mention the Epic, which was great in itself, with twists and turns and treachery and ire for revenge.

I would have that and more any time over some scripted instances that you grind over and over for shinies. .

Well, if those quests were all lvl 65 quests and the cap hadn't been raised, you'd definitely still do them right? We'd still get to see that touching story unfold, etc. And get the deeds, rewards, etc. Just no need for additional xp & levels.

Personally, I'm all for additional content, but still would like them to stop raising the level cap. I don't see why more quest content would necessitate a higher level cap.

Originally Posted by Rasdun

Well, if those quests were all lvl 65 quests and the cap hadn't been raised, you'd definitely still do them right? We'd still get to see that touching story unfold, etc. And get the deeds, rewards, etc. Just no need for additional xp & levels.

Personally, I'm all for additional content, but still would like them to stop raising the level cap. I don't see why more quest content would necessitate a higher level cap.

Yes, but the level cap raise is great too. My characters gained several thousands morale each, my DPS more than doubled, some of my skills got an interesting tweak to them. I feel a lot more powerful now: I can solo 50k morale Elite Masters and Nemesises, I can solo old group instances like Carn Dum and Urugarth, I can even solo previously-level capped 3-mans such as Sword Halls or Stoneheight. That makes my character feel a lot more powerful, with obvious progression.

Side-progression is OD gear compared to Moria or Orthanc gear compared to Draigoch: a few extra stat points plus maybe a set bonus. Vertical progression is Dunland quest gear to any 65 gear: instant significant increase in stats by a magnitude, almost doubling your main stat within a week of play. And that is what most people here would like to see, so Turbine provides.

Originally Posted by Malachi108

I feel a lot more powerful now: I can solo 50k morale Elite Masters and Nemesises, I can solo old group instances like Carn Dum and Urugarth, I can even solo previously-level capped 3-mans such as Sword Halls or Stoneheight. That makes my character feel a lot more powerful, with obvious progression.

Wow. We really have become a "everyone gets trophy to feel better culture." Let's imagine that you are a chess player and we play a match and I crush you. Do you then "feel" better as a player if you play my 4 year-old cousin and crush him? If I lost a match to you I wouldn't feel any satisfaction until I beat you, not a nerfed version of you.

I hope you realize that the fact that you can now solo those things is not because you are suddenly more skilled as a player. It is purely a function of game mechanics related to being "over leveled." Underleveled mobs have increased miss chance, decreased mitigations, etc. There is a mathematical equation embedded in the game that makes that content trivial.

I really don't know why they felt the need to go 10 levels with RoI. The itemization was AWFUL. The game virtually skips levels 66-74. What's the point of that? 5 Level jumps make a lot more sense. With mirkwood, Moria content was still relevant. RoI completely erased In Their Absence content. It just doesn't make sense.

Originally Posted by bastiat1

I hope you realize that the fact that you can now solo those things is not because you are suddenly more skilled as a player. It is purely a function of game mechanics related to being "over leveled." Underleveled mobs have increased miss chance, decreased mitigations, etc. There is a mathematical equation embedded in the game that makes that content trivial.

Yes. That is the thing I like.

Originally Posted by Malachi108

Yes. That is the thing I like.

Do you often go and kill Jagger Jack at each level increase?

Originally Posted by bastiat1

Do you often go and kill Jagger Jack at each level increase?

Not him, and not Baugarch, no.

Before RoI I had no hope of killing even a single boss in OD or BG, now I have completed both. Before RoI I just COULD. NOT. DO. Lost Temple and Sari-Surma challenges, despite many attempts, now both are within my limits. Before RoI I had to find groups for doing slayer deeds in instances like Barad Gularan, Fil Gashan or Mirror-Halls, now I can do that on my own. That's obvious character progression here and why the hell do you want to deny me that anyway?

P.S. You say level cap raise makes old content "trivial, useless and obsolete". I say it makes it "accessible" to casual people and that is a good thing.

Originally Posted by Malachi108

P.S. You say level cap raise makes old content "trivial, useless and obsolete". I say it makes it "accessible" to casual people and that is a good thing.

It's because I think about progression as accomplishing a task by me getting better rather than the task getting easier. I understand your position though and I recognize that not everyone is of the same skill level or has the same motivation, but may still want to experience all of the content. That's perfectly reasonable.

Even still the development model that would work for both of our interests is to not increase the level cap, but to allow people to run instances overleveled. It would be trivially easy to allow a character to run level 75 instances as if they were level 85 without actually increasing the level cap. Run it overleveled for fun and deeds but no gear, and everyone is happy.

As a veteran MMO player, a level cap being raised means very little to me. It happens. It's a way to get new gear and new experiences.
While it's true I know very little of the whole legendary thing (My highest being 43), so I don't know what the whole grind issue is.

Oh, for crying out loud..... the expansion is almost a year away, and you start complaining about level cap?? what the heck is wrong with 10 new levels? as someone else said earlier, it's the journey that counts, not (as much) the destination. Character progress is only natural, what's so wrong about it? Scaling may even be done to all instances by then. I fear some of you are way too proud of reaching the level cap and the shiny gear you've gotten doing the new level 75 instances. You know they'll be obsolete someday anyway. It's a GAME.. not a job. You don't have to do it if you don't want to. I think many players would stagnate early in the new regions if they didn't feel some kind of character progression. New armour yes, but as it is now leveling up is the most natural part of that progression.

When November/December (/Fall) comes I guess you all we be complaining about lack of content and progression anyway.


Personally, I can't wait for Riders of Rohan. Four of my characters is "of Rohan", the Bredinga, and they can't wait to return home, being far and too long away from the Riddermark Mounted combat sounds great, and I really hope it will live up to my expectations. New regions, even as early as this spring, sounds great. The size of "huge!" sounds awesome. And to have my soldier with me outside skirmishes sounds .. interesting. And hopefully something will be done to housing as well..

Turbine, I can't wait. But I want to wait. For the best expansion this far to be made into the best expansion this far.

Forth Éorlingas!

Originally Posted by Rapunzel666

I am sorry Turbine: As much as I eagerly anticipate a continuation in the epic story, as much as I want to get closer to mount doom, I am somewhat set back here:

My first thought when reading the announcement was: now I will have to do the legendary weapon grind all over again.

I realize RoR is many months away, but still... my first thought was also "I just got my last 75 2A, and then I have to start over agaaaaaaaiiiin?" Well...

In terms of gut feeling, 10 levels in a year difference does feel rushed. Like how RoI and Update 5 were both rushed, and level inflation doesn't really help that perception. But let's see where this fits, historically:

SoA -> 4/2007 = level 50 cap
MoM -> 11/2008 = +10 levels to 60 // Up to this point, RIDICULOUS amounts of content.
SoM -> 12/2009 = +5 levels to 65 // Plenty of controversy about raising the cap on a minizone.
RoI -> 9/2011 = +10 levels to 75 // Rushed and buggy content, Update 5 didn't help much (also rushed).
RoR -> ?/2012 = +10 levels to 85

Hmmm. So I guess the stretch between MoM-RoI 3 years for 15 levels is perhaps the pacing people have come to expect despite the first MoM 10-level jump? 1 year for 10 levels immediately after already rushed, unpolished content does seem a little... why the rush?

I fully expect about 30 new store scrolls for Legendary Items, soldiers, and war steeds, on top of more lockbox idiocy and higher statted gear. Oh yay. :/

A rather 'meh' announcement for me. My primary concern is, with this perceived level inflation "rush," I seriously wonder if Turbine can pull off quality content on time with minimal bugs, unlike RoI+U5. Never mind my serious doubts about landscape soldier pets, among other things. (Wallet? Continually borked T7 and T8 crafting? Housing? XP control?)

__________
U5/Patch 5.1 Instance Join skirmish earnings data | Crit crafting & the RNG | Dumb noob things we've done in LotRO...
"Be not so eager to advance that you fail to experience the moment, in life and in all things." -Deluros, Rivendell

How many quests will it take to get from 75-85? The 300 for RoI was just barely enough to go from 65-75; I remember reading all the "there aren't enough quests!" threads. Unless xp gain is seriously upped, the number of quests is going to be high-- but will the variety of quests match?

Another concern I have is two new combat systems-- well, ok, one and a half. There are still bugs that need to be addressed with RoI; will the mounted combat and skirm soldier by your side even be feasible? How many threads are there now about pathing issues with soldiers? It'll be interesting to see what actually comes to fruition.

Ten level is only acceptable if they change the whole LIs system. I will hate to grind it over again year after year, as LIs became obsolete even after a few levels. (in RoI a Third Age level 68 weapon had already more DPS than a level 65 First Age!)

Unfortunately, revamping the LIs system will go against the interest of the Store. Therefore I doubt they will overhaul the system anytime soon

Leveling to 85 will be unfun. Grinding new legendary weapons will be unfun. Adding legendary horses to the grind will be unfun. It's unfun for raiders, its unfun for soloers, its just plain unfun. All the quests from Enedwaith forward have been pointless inanity.

Instead of driving people from the game, just go back to the Moria/Mirkwood economic model. Keep the old content instead of discarding it, just make the rewards from the new instances slightly better than what was previously available. Most people will still buy the new content, some won't, but at least you wouldn't have so many people quitting the game altogether.

Originally Posted by Malachi108

Not him, and not Baugarch, no.

Before RoI I had no hope of killing even a single boss in OD or BG, now I have completed both. Before RoI I just COULD. NOT. DO. Lost Temple and Sari-Surma challenges, despite many attempts, now both are within my limits. Before RoI I had to find groups for doing slayer deeds in instances like Barad Gularan, Fil Gashan or Mirror-Halls, now I can do that on my own. That's obvious character progression here and why the hell do you want to deny me that anyway?

P.S. You say level cap raise makes old content "trivial, useless and obsolete". I say it makes it "accessible" to casual people and that is a good thing.

But that is something which is better solved by other means than increasing the level cap.
No matter how high your level, you wont be able to solo draigoch or other raids due to the inherent need for multiple players.

My suggestion would be a reworking of ALL instances, making use of the already done design work, simply allowing it to scale. If these are done below their original intended level, they hand out no or little reward. If done above their original level, the marks/seals drop rate could be increased, and perhaps the instance-related reward items replaced by the ones currently handed out from the 12-man 75 skirms, just so you get at least something up to date.
Armour sets could be reworked to scale, perhaps grand stairs at 75 could hand out a special token, allowing you to get moria armour piece scaled to 75, not 60?
If the instance has group related mechanisms, there should be a redesign (or npcs helping you out) to ease the progression.
That way a diehard solo player could experience the group-instances too, and raiders would have a much broader choice what to run, being busy all week, perhaps even rediscovering old instances, or enjoying them on a harder difficulty level.

Originally Posted by Brethwyn_EU

...what the heck is wrong with 10 new levels? as someone else said earlier, it's the journey that counts, not (as much) the destination. Character progress is only natural, what's so wrong about it? Scaling may even be done to all instances by then. I fear some of you are way too proud of reaching the level cap and the shiny gear you've gotten doing the new level 75 instances. You know they'll be obsolete someday anyway. It's a GAME.. not a job. You don't have to do it if you don't want to. I

For one thing: I am happy about a new expansion, no matter what

BUT: if its the journey that counts, then there shouldnt be a need for 10 more levels? I for myself enjoy running quests no matter their relative level to mine (when starting to play, I did Bree, Shire, Ered Luin before hitting 30, just to experience it all).
So if it is the journey that counts, wouldnt you enjoy the expansion at lvl70-75 just the same as 76-85?
All the while avoiding the problems associated with that huge of a level increase, inbalanced stats, huge item grind etc. If it would have been +5 each for RoI and RoR, ok, but +20 in total compared to enedwaith is way too much.

A character development certainly is nice to see, but imho from lvl65 on there has been nothing new added to the gameplay, its all about bigger numbers, and improved versions of existing skills.
thats no character development to me, since my char doesnt learn anything really new, doesnt unlock new abilities on his way, and I fear it will be the same with lvl76-85.
Once a certain point is reached, there should be a maximum you as a character can reach, all the rest should be achieved via equipment and traits/virtues.
As someone else said, a boar is a boar, no matter if he is in evendim or Rohan.
Merry and Pippin did grow, mentally (yes, and physically, thanks to the ent water) but they didnt become uber-hobbits on returning to the shire and fighting sharky's men there.
Well, rambling aside, I guess thats something to consider when designing a new game system, too late for an existing one

LOTRO is the only MMO where players actually complain about having to progress with their characters and items when there's a new expansion. I find it kinda funny.. can you picture everyone sitting outside the Dark Portal stubbornly typing "NO! I don't want to replace my epics that I farmed 2 years for! You noobs go into Outlands!" .

Originally Posted by Awoken

LOTRO is the only MMO where players actually complain about having to progress with their characters and items when there's a new expansion. I find it kinda funny.. can you picture everyone sitting outside the Dark Portal stubbornly typing "NO! I don't want to replace my epics that I farmed 2 years for! You noobs go into Outlands!" .

Frodo didn't discard Sting on his way, so neither should we

Originally Posted by Rapunzel666

Frodo didn't discard Sting on his way, so neither should we

Yeah but Frodo is an NPC and he didn't really do much levelling.

Originally Posted by Awoken

LOTRO is the only MMO where players actually complain about having to progress with their characters and items when there's a new expansion. I find it kinda funny.. can you picture everyone sitting outside the Dark Portal stubbornly typing "NO! I don't want to replace my epics that I farmed 2 years for! You noobs go into Outlands!" .

Amusingly enough, I did quit WoW the first time for similar reasons. Granted, it was my first MMO, and I hit 60 just about a month before TBC. Of course, Blizzard tends to go a bit over the top with gear advancement - like for instance, green quest rewards from HP being on par or better than vanilla T3 Rogue gear.

Which again, Turbine tends to be a lot more conservative - it took me at least 5 levels through RoI before I found a piece that was better than what I was currently wearing - so it's not like you're throwing out your old stuff the minute you walk into Dunland.

Regardless, I agree - it's silly. It's either raiders wanting to raid all the time, without y'know, actually playing the main part of the game, or it's people whining about "trivializing content". But, the catch is, everybody wants to see their stats go up, and get new shinys to wear. They just have this aversion to seeing level numbers go up. Personally, that's half the reason I play - for the advancement. The other half is story, but I don't care what MMO or RPG I'm playing - the story is much more interesting to me when I'm advancing with it.

After all, that's the main reason why I didn't even do Enedwaith until after the cap raise.

I do think that lvl 85 is a bit much. I would been just as happy with lvl 80. But seen as the area is supposed to be as big, if not bigger, than Moria. Well then. 10 levels it is!

Well, ok you can label me a sicko. I love leveling, it means more orcs, bigger orces, more orcs to kill, well you get the picture. Mounted doenst mean anything to me unless they give us war-goats, dont want no stinkin half-horse pony that the elfs dont want. Also still looking for that mention to dwarfs being allowed to be captains.

Just my two coppers(tis all the elfs left me)

sigh, you guys just have to complain about something all the time dont ya? if you dont like having to grind all over, dont. keep your 75 stuff if you absolute want to, nobody is forcing you to change your gear or level up. If they didnt increase the cap people would only complain about no new cap.

I love what turbine is doing and you guys have to ruin it for everyone. they expect feedback which is nice, but for every small step they make there is a 100 posts about how bad it is on the forums, cant you guys just wait and see before you judge? RoR is still many months away and should let you get done with your grind. Ok your done with your grind what will you do now? exploit how op freeps are compared to creeps? They keep updating this game so people got a reason to play, not so you can just stick around and get bored!

Originally Posted by Witch0King

sigh, you guys just have to complain about something all the time dont ya? if you dont like having to grind all over, dont. keep your 75 stuff if you absolute want to, nobody is forcing you to change your gear or level up. If they didnt increase the cap people would only complain about no new cap.

how am I not forced to change my gear when there are quests I can't do because my gear is 10 levels low??

Originally Posted by Rapunzel666

how am I not forced to change my gear when there are quests I can't do because my gear is 10 levels low??

As I said its your choice remain in Galtrev forever if you like.

Originally Posted by Witch0King

As I said its your choice remain in Galtrev forever if you like.

Hey, and along those lines, at least the lag problems in Galtrev will be fixed, as it becomes a ghost town.

I look forward to levelling up and getting new skills, hopefully more virtue and trait slots, etc. New content, sounds great. Mounted combat, sounds gimicky, but I'll be happy to give it a go. LIs are the only part I dread. Getting new LIs is OK, though I'd rather have an upgrade path of some sort. Getting legacy scrolls is fine. Grinding for the new Superior Greater Scrolls of Empowerment (or whatever they call them) and for shards to get the New Improved T8 Remarkable Relics, not so fun...

Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise

Hey, and along those lines, at least the lag problems in Galtrev will be fixed, as it becomes a ghost town.

I look forward to levelling up and getting new skills, hopefully more virtue and trait slots, etc. New content, sounds great. Mounted combat, sounds gimicky, but I'll be happy to give it a go. LIs are the only part I dread. Getting new LIs is OK, though I'd rather have an upgrade path of some sort. Getting legacy scrolls is fine. Grinding for the new Superior Greater Scrolls of Empowerment (or whatever they call them) and for shards to get the New Improved T8 Remarkable Relics, not so fun...

I like this guy's spirit. should be more guys like him on this thread

I like a new level cap, looking forward to quest in the new area's.

Originally Posted by Rapunzel666

I am sorry Turbine: As much as I eagerly anticipate a continuation in the epic story, as much as I want to get closer to mount doom, I am somewhat set back here:

My first thought when reading the announcement was: now I will have to do the legendary weapon grind all over again.

Legendary System being the way it is, it only means much effort wasted into grinding yet another set of legacy and other scrolls plus a 2nd age item for crafting yet another disposable weapon which only benefit lies in even bigger dps numbers.

And before someone asks: no, I won't spend money in the shop to reduce this grind, if it could have been avoided if properly designed. If the feeling of being a hamster in a wheel gets too much, I rather spend my time leveling alts and enjoying the journey, dismissing them the moment I have wrung all fun out of them.

Why don't you make RoR 65-75, like Isengard? That would offer a second option in leveling, with no time wasted in a meaningless grind, no time wasted in redesigning even stronger mobs and bosses, focussing purely on fun / hour enjoying the content and mounted combat your designers created.

Also I hope you have some good ideas on what these additional 10 levels mean in new skills? Hopefully really new skills, or simply improved² versions of already existing skills? I really would like to see something of value added to the classes, instead of simply dishing out more damage/heals whatever.
Perhaps there will be a new legendary skill + slot ?

With the new mounts leveling with you (Customize your War-steed’s armor and level its skills over time to aid you in mounted defense of King Theoden’s lands.) I somewhat imagine it as similar to an improved skirmish soldier, with traits I can improve and equipment I can slot.
Wouldnt that be a way to create 'really' legendary weapons, using a similar system, thus giving you the feeling you really use the SAME weapon from lvl45 to 85?

Oh, and as a sidenote: please try to deliver all instances together with the expansion, and offer some friendlier ways to pay for it! I am eager to see what you pull out of your hat as pre-order bonuses

In MMO there always must be place for grinding. Even if Turbine would listen to You (and they wont) and make ur 2nd lvling up with you or on the other hand make it easier to make at new lvl. But they would have to offer something else to grind as grinding is the part of mmo that keeps you in doing something. And You would go for new grinding and come here crying that with next expansion you will have to do it again and again... Its like never ending whining. I have a simple answer for you. You dotn want to grind 2nd age? Then enjoy undeveloped 3rd age...!!!

RoR great news, but I have to say that a 10 level rise in the cap came as a bit of a surprise.

The main problem here is that 10 levels, as opposed to 5, immediately renders obsolete every piece of gear you have. The second problem here is that a 10 level rise also renders obsolete every bit of instance and raid content. When we were sat at 65, the level 60 content was at least still viable. I even continued to visit the Watcher for a bit of fun.

I would have much prefered a 5 level rise, if any at all, so soon after the last climb up the levels; it will be much less than a year after all if by the time RoR hits.

Imo, a 5 level rise does not, a). Have such a catastrophic affect on your gear and b) is not quite the same, steep grind particularly if you have multiple toons.

I do not want to be overly negative. New content is new content after all and thats a good thing. But I cannot help but think that a 10 level cap rise makes things harder on Turbine (full suite of new content/raid/instances needed) as well as slightly demoralising for some of the player base.

Originally Posted by Ventata47

RoR great news, but I have to say that a 10 level rise in the cap came as a bit of a surprise.

The main problem here is that 10 levels, as opposed to 5, immediately renders obsolete every piece of gear you have.

Both of these things.

Nothing surprises me, as a MMO veteran. Even from WoW.
This is how MMO's evolve. Yes, it's a new grind. That's why you gear back up and kick more tail.

I'm not sure why everyone is so up in arms. When a new level cap is introduced in other games, people rejoice at the chance to get their new gear and show off.

Some retrospect;
In WoW, between Wrath of the Lich King (80) and Cataclysm (85)... The highest itemlevel gear was a 277, a legendary axe that could take people weeks to get because it required to do certain quests and raids.
The first green drop or quest reward in Cataclysm? 277-283.
For five minutes of work killing a few rock elementals.
It just happens.

I don't get the 10 level raise. We sat at 65 after Mirkwood for quite a while and even got a new zone in Enedwaith, an instance cluster in an update with OD, which meant that it was perfectly viable to wear Moria instance armor.

Aside from running some quick GSes for teal moria gear while leveling I doubt most current leveling characters will ever wear BG, DN or OD gear, and now with a 10 level jump they won't wear Update 5 armor or Draig set either. That is 6 raids worth of gear that will be obsolete (Rift, BG, DN, OD, Draig, ToO). I understand they want to introduce more content and of course to encourage people to actually go there they increase the level cap, but 10 levels just seem stupid, are they in a race with WoW now to see who can reach level 100 first?

It might well happen in other MMO's but this feels like too short a time for a ten level cap rise in LotRo. Lotro launched with a lvl cap of 50 in summer 2007. We were still at the dizzy heights of a 65 cap in December 2011 when Isengard launched. So comparatively, on a lotro scale of things, this is a big jump in a short time frame with a likely corresponding degrade on available cap-applicable content.

Originally Posted by bastiat1

Cap increases are great for casual and solo players. It's not for end-gamers. It sucks for end-gamers. It really really sucks. I mean it really really really sucks. There is NOTHING more boring for a raider than killing the 100,000th wargs in a stupid landscape quest just to get to 85- NOTHING. Even if I do it from a horse. There is nothing more demotivating than knowing that as soon as you get new gear, from a an incredibly difficult raid you've been learning for months, you will end up replacing it with new gear from an overland quest that your two year old son could have just as easily acquired. NOTHING.

There is nothing at all creative or challenging about overland quests. They aren't conducive to grouping- you know- the "multiplayer" part, because they are so easy they don't require grouping. Overland quests are filler. They are cheap filler that is easy to design and to placate the non-raiding masses. There is a place for them. Up to about 50 they make sense while you are still learning the game and learning your class. But after that the inanity and the repetition is just too much to bear. I have had very consistent and motivated raiders in my kin quit with Isen solely because of the boring grind to 75.

Grinding 10 more levels is not funny, and it's not fun. I honestly don't even know who thinks it's fun. I get that there are a lot of soloers out there. But you can create more quests, even new skills locked behind new quests- challenging quests even, without increasing the level cap, which does nothing except destroy all of your old content (see the great Ost Dunhoth in the trash bin) and create the illusion of progression.

I know Turbine is commercially motivated, and I don't fault them for that. I'm sure they've done the math and cheap filler brings in more subs than no cap increase and a raid. I guess this game is just leaving what I want out of a game behind.

Something beneficial for casual gamers? Better change it now before they get greedy!!