Thread: A word about the new gear offerings in the LOTRO Store

Sapience, this better be the first step towards amending the horrible customer service reputation you guys have. I sincerely hope you'll be doing more of this in the future, and not just a "Yep, we'll talk more!" that wears off in a month. Furthermore, you need to expand your talk outside of the Store. Yes, the Store is a large part of your world now, but that's really the only thing big names seem to comment on anymore with any 'official response' from. Draigoch bugs, bans for using RK skills, selective class forum feedback (not that I'm at all damning Zombie, Graal or Orion for commenting where and when they do as it's welcome; but that needs to happen in every class forum if it happens in any, whether it's those three or others - standards must be set and met), GM attitude and ability, and I'm sure others can add more I'm not aware of or not thinking of.

In short, thank you for at least responding to the community. But you must keep it going, and not just for the precioussss Store. Customer service is huge. I sincerely hope you guys start realizing that sooner than later.

Thank you Sapience. Excellent post. Very good to hear the things you stated in your post.

For me, the best thing to hear about is more content coming as the player base grows, and more communication.

unbelievable...

Hi everyone,

Hi. Gonna touch on a handful of points, if it please the court.

Why Starter Armor?
We monitor and report internally on many aspects of the game as we strive to tune the experience. Something that’s emerged over time is an increasing gap between low level and high level players. It’s an issue that many MMOs face as they reach maturity: With many players at or near cap, what happens to the game experience for those at lower levels?

Well, I can't speak for everyone, but in my kinship our crafters provide armor for the aforementioned newer players, and also help them learn and enjoy the game. Mayhap it's time for Turbine to take a look at the numerous suggestions for improving kinships, eh?

In considering how to implement this decision, a simple choice needed to be made: Should we offer a piece of armor that was good for a set level range with the tradeoff that it may be a significant boost at the bottom of that level range or should we design a piece that was underpowered at the top of its range? To be safe, we erred on the side of being too generous in value, thinking that few could fault us for doing so.

Clearly, we got that wrong.

Yes.

Stop me if it hurts… How about now?

Clearly somebody is hurting or fears getting hurt (financially), or you wouldn't be having this conversation with us.

To say that we were unprepared for the feedback we got would be inaccurate. We certainly expected the introduction of a new type of item to the store to drive discussion – some of it passionate. That said, the magnitude and tenor of the conversation was unexpected.

Well, as some of us have pointed out, this is after all a game based on The Lord of the Rings, an IP with a very passionate fanbase that extends well beyond the confines of the game itself. If the community's reaction was "unexpected", someone there at Turbine is not paying attention.

If we start seeing lots of kits going to high level players who do nefarious things with their purchased gold, we will consider the implications and adjust accordingly.

Very good, glad to hear that. You wouldn't believe some of the utterly ludicrous ideas being floated in response to this, so I'm happy they plan on being proactive in this aspect.

We’re all travelling to Mt. Doom with you and nobody wants the trip cut short, so please trust us on this.

Oh, *bleep*, I HATE spiders. And who gets tasked with trying to bite my finger off?

That brings us to our final point: communication.

We’ll take this as a sign that we need to do a better job in clear and open communication. In the future we will take more time to explain why - not just what we’re doing.

Yes, and thank you for that. And please tell them that the timing of such announcements could be better planned in the future. One of the reasons the *bleep*storm raged on for as long as it did was because the news dropped on a Friday afternoon before a three-day weekend. I really did feel a pang of sympathy for you and the other forum mods who were left to deal with the noisy and prolonged aftermath.

Thanks to everyone who participated in this discussion. As always we appreciate your passion and will continue to listen to your feedback.

Did my level best not to be any harsher than I needed to be, but there's no denying there's room for improvement. Especially on the communication front. I will take this thread as a hopeful sign.

Originally Posted by Sapience

• What’s not a convenience?

Anything that’s compulsory to be competitive in ranked play or achieves something by degrading another player’s experience. We have not and will not make that part of our F2P offering.

That's so ridiculously subjective that it leaves the door open to just about anything, which I guess is the point.

Originally Posted by JRonnie

That's so ridiculously subjective that it leaves the door open to just about anything, which I guess is the point.

Yup, that is my thinking too.

For the future: seeing = believing.

For me, the magic is gone.

Originally Posted by Okokdir

Hi, my character is a tailor and I would love to craft more good lower level armour and make it avaible to my fellow players, but you don't have anything this nice for me to craft. Would it be possible to fix that please? Just add the recipe into the game and I'll go get it and start making these up.

(See I even asked nicely.)

Or is the idea not to have these available to players unless they choose to not support the in game economy at all?

Overhauling even the lower tiers of crafting takes time. Yes they can do it and you might even see it as soon as this summer. With the store though they can whip out quick (and possibly just short-term) solution and see what happens. People may buy it like crazy in which case doing an overhaul is probably in order, people may not buy it at all in which case no great changes to the game need to be made. Problem is, people see the store only as a money-grabbing tool.

Originally Posted by Sapience

We appreciate that fact and all we ask is that you view this as the first step on that long haul.

Thanks for taking the time to address the most recent issue so directly.

I can tell you, my trust and faith in Turbine and its ability to hold the store in check would be instantly restored were you guys to make substantive changes to the in-game availability of stat tomes, relic removal scrolls, and store-exclusive relics.

In your letter, you say:

Very true. It’s one of our guiding principles. Some people have time, others have money and when players are willing to trade money for time we usually consider that a convenience.

Stat tomes, relic removal scrolls, and store-exlusive relics don't fit this model. They're just simply store exclusives (stat tomes being ostensibly obtainable in-game, but not in any realistic sense).

This last episode was the straw that broke the camel's back for a lot of people. Even should the store armour be removed, I think a lot of people would still feel that the trend is likely to continue, just at a slower pace. Were Turbine to reevaluate those store exclusives and make them actually available in-game, I think a lot of people would feel that the sun has broken through the clouds and that we can actually have faith that Turbine does indeed possess the wherewithall to dig in and stop its descent down the "slippery slope."

And, please keep in mind, there are a lot of people still playing but refusing to spend their TP (or purchase more). I think there are a lot of people who might actually happily buy stat tomes, relics, and/or relic removal scrolls were they not store exclusives. But they are essentially boycotting them now because they object to them being only in the store. It's their nature as store exclusives that has a lot of folks saying: "Those things are evil". . . but if they were reasonably availabe in-game, I think a lot of folks might earn some here or there, and then purchase others (for their alts, etc.). For me, essentially, was the way I was buying/earning Scroll of Empowerment before I started my own personal "store boycott."

But. . . all that aside. . . as someone who has written quite a bit since the armour was added to the store, I'd like to express some heartfelt gratitude for engaging the community so directly on this issue. I have always tried to remain polite and have repeatedly urged people never to make this "personal" against Turbine or any of its representatives. As always, you guys are just doing your jobs. Thank you for taking the time to research, write, vet, and publish the information above.

Best Regards,

H

Great to see the communication, and I'm glad to see it.

but:

* the stat tomes still don't drop in-game at rates that would be described as "reasonable" by a rationale human being, and even Asian MMO players say "man, those things just don't drop."

This means that inexorable grinds have been introduced that can only be circumvented by store purchases

* relic removal scrolls are still store only

Not as bad, but a second violation in the same spirit as the first. That the LI system is supposed to be a selling point for the game makes this smell like a dead woodchuck under the porch one summer too many.

* store-only relics

If people use it @ end-game, should be available in game. This one isn't at all, and it's not a grind replacement. You want it, you have to buy it. Not cool.

* store armor vs crafting

Somewhere along the line, crafting turned into a chore you must do on each character to get the best crafted relics. This is another nail in the "crafting is unfun and largely pointless" coffin. For a game with such a rich lore of dwarven and elven craftsmanship, this could have been a great selling point.

--


The first three can be fixed by making it easier to get these things in the game, or adding them to the game [Edit: whoa, bad typo!]. The last one is alot harder, but still rubs alot of people the wrong way - and alot of people that expect more out of the IP.






--

I know you're managing the community here, and not calling the shots Sapience - but the direction of the above paint a picture that says "it's OK to add unfun things to the game as long as a fun option is available for purchase in the store."

The game should be fun to play on it's own merits. Arguments about the store should be about how that 1995 green ghost horse is hella schweet and WHY CAN'T I GET THE DROP FOR THE REGULAR ONE FOR MY HOBBIT MAIN, brb, checking chests. That keeps me playing! Storebought armours over crafting fixes makes me throw my hands up in the air that you guys just don't get what the IP's rich history of artifice could be. Or that you don't know what the hell a focus group is, b/c this is Tolkien - we take college courses on the lore, it's not like opinions are lacking here. Ask. (And ask *before* you have the intern come up w/ the decon/lotto-based legendary item system and sold it to the board of directors as the next best thing in MMO gaming.)

Originally Posted by Sapience

Some people have time, others have money and when players are willing to trade money for time we usually consider that a convenience.

And that right there folks is all you should need to hear.

What a disgusting position to take as an MMO developer.

I'm out.

Originally Posted by Sapience

That brings us to our final point: communication.

We’ll take this as a sign that we need to do a better job in clear and open communication. In the future we will take more time to explain why - not just what we’re doing.

Thanks to everyone who participated in this discussion. As always we appreciate your passion and will continue to listen to your feedback.

I personally only heard about this gear from other people complaining, and to be honest, I'm not bothered about it myself.

Having said that, the lack of communication is a very big deal for me.

For the last month, pretty much the only memorable announcement we had was a half assed New Year announcement which in itself didn't say much at all. I had grown quite fond of the game specifically because I like LOTR and because I used to feel there was a lot of communication between staff and the playerbase. I was expecting this to go slow over the holiday period, but we're almost in February now - updates 4 and 5 seem like a very long time ago. The only announcements that come in with any sort of regularity are the marketing posts and emails... buy this, buy that.... I don't really blame people for thinking that's all Turbine is intrerested in at the moment.

Please try to keep the normal communication as consistent and regular as the sales comms, and maybe people wil be less annoyed about the marketing agenda - at the moment the sales tactis is all we get to see.

I really would like some detail about that we can expect this year. Maybe if you share what you guys are planning, it might give us something to look forward to, and we could give you feedback before it starts being implemented.

Originally Posted by Reniannen

Overhauling even the lower tiers of crafting takes time. Yes they can do it and you might even see it as soon as this summer. With the store though they can whip out quick (and possibly just short-term) solution and see what happens. People may buy it like crazy in which case doing an overhaul is probably in order, people may not buy it at all in which case no great changes to the game need to be made. Problem is, people see the store only as a money-grabbing tool.

No, I'm not asking for an overhaul. I'm asking for the recipe to make items of similar stat.

It's just as easy as adding the item to the game via the store.

Hmmm, ok fair enough, but Turbine like to make a big deal about how this is all giving the players a choice, the perfect excuse as it were for adding all sorts to the store and hiding behind the 'Some players have more time, some players have more money' mantra.

So my question is this, we've seen the introduction of the store items in an effort to address this issue of lack of gear at low levels thus offering the choice for the players with money but not the time, now what are Turbine going to do to balance things and offer the choice for the players with time but not the money ? Are we going to see quest rewards changed to offer better gear, maybe sort out the crafting recipies so crafters can provide the players with the choice ? Maybe changes to the loot tables so that there is a better chance of getting drops that at least match the store gear ?

For all this claim to be about offering choice, I find it strange that it seems the best course of action was to offer up items on the store with stat's that are better than what can be obtained through playing or crafting at that level, not much of a choice really is it. I get that this is for such low levels that it will seem almost meaningless to some, but if Turbine were true to their word they would have balanced these items out by ensuring there was a way to get similar (or slightly better even would be my preference) through ingame means as well as purchasing via the store, thus really offering a choice.

This 'choice' seems to be an illusion

Oh, and and your definition of 'convenience' leaves you open to be able to add basically anything to the store whatsoever, lol, although I'm guessing thats the point

My opinion, for what it's worth, is that any future items added to the store such as these should always go hand in hand with an ability to obtain the same or similar items through gameplay means. If you identify a hole in the game don't just go chucking stuff up on the store to plug that hole, that will only make many of your customers angry. If there is a genuine issue such as this lack of gear for the level range, then for goodness sake fix it ingame as well as through the store.

Originally Posted by BrittainTheCommie

What a disgusting position to take as an MMO developer.

It's pretty simple actually. Spend a couple of hours killing 400 Wargs for a Virtue\Trait, or buy it on sale for 295TP... What the heck is so disgusting about that?

Thank you for the post, Sapience.

I hate that as a result of this incident my first reaction to new offerings is now going to be "How does this maximize store profit for Turbine" instead of "I can't wait to try out the new content" but I am willing to wait and see if this is really the start of a sustained effort to earn back customer trust. I'm still not going to buy or spend any more Turbine points for the foreseeable future.

I'm pleased to hear an official response on the issue, but I'm not sure I understand why the problem of armour wasn't solved by in-game methods, such as quest rewards, skirmish rewards, or crafting. It seems to me that a fix to crafting would make new players more eager to invest time (especially if you cut down the induction time of leather/ore/wood) and be able to craft their own gear. If you made it easy enough, I'm sure a new player would happily make another character to self-supply.

I'm glad to hear interesting things are coming. I'll check back in after a break - this event has broken my LOTRO spirit for now.

Originally Posted by Killien

It's pretty simple actually. Spend a couple of hours killing 400 Wargs for a Virtue\Trait, or buy it on sale for 295TP... What the heck is so disgusting about that?

Buying a scroll for the final tier 2 hard mode raid boss fight that reduces all incoming damage by 5% as well as stacks of the best morale and power pots available in the game (all only from the store) versus making the fight that much harder on yourselves by not buying that 'advantage' (in my opinion, but obviously not Turbines). That's what so disgusting to some of us.

Originally Posted by Killien

It's pretty simple actually. Spend a couple of hours killing 400 Wargs for a Virtue\Trait, or buy it on sale for 295TP... What the heck is so disgusting about that?

Well... if killing 400 wargs is so tedious, then perhaps the game should reevaluate how we earn traits, rather than making us pay to improve the system? Isn't having a store item contradictory to fixing that item? Of course, it is.

But with your line of thinking, I trust people that buy characters/gold/power leveling/whatever, are just as reasonable.

Originally Posted by Killien

It's pretty simple actually. Spend a couple of hours killing 400 Wargs for a Virtue\Trait, or buy it on sale for 295TP... What the heck is so disgusting about that?

Alot of that depends if it the same virtue only cost "200 wargs" before the store was added to the game.

Originally Posted by Killien

It's pretty simple actually. Spend a couple of hours killing 400 Wargs for a Virtue\Trait, or buy it on sale for 295TP... What the heck is so disgusting about that?

Well said:

I would also add that the person killing the wargs gets the loot and in some cases experience for killing the wargs along with the hides which sell for a tidy sum and even faction items depending on the zone. In other words, they save TP, gain coin and possibly faction and experience.

The person purchasing the accelerators gets less rewards and the person just purchasing the virtue gets a debit to their TP account.

Sapience, that would have been a very nice reaction to the dispute... had it come a week ago. It took you guys a week to apologize and explain what was going on? Sorry, I don't buy it, especially after your initial response to the situation (the infamous "better items in-game" comment, which was quickly proved completely false). I do appreciate the attempt at communicating with the community, though. Perhaps this will make a difference to those players who were on the fence about LOTRO (and I'm sure that's what Turbine was hoping for), but my wife and I will not be returning.

In short, I remain unconvinced. Where was this willingness to communicate during the month after the forum breach? Where was it this last week during the debate over the Store Gear? I'm thinking Management was busily deciding how to respond, then Marketing had to write up a response, which Legal had to approve, then it was finally handed off to you to post. That's how I see it, anyway. If I'm wrong in that, I apologize, but you must understand... I have no reason to trust the word of anyone at Turbine any longer, yours or otherwise.

When I saw your post that no end-game gear will ever be in the LOTRO Store, my first thought was "How long before this comment gets redacted?" I'm sure it won't be anytime soon, but I fully believe Turbine will follow the Pay-to-Win path to its inevitable end. Obviously the community was not prepared for it yet, but eventually Turbine will try again.

Originally Posted by Defense1977

Not impressed nor persuaded.



Oh, and one other point. You stated that F2P "multiplied monthly audiences and provided an increase in revenues which we will re-invest in the game." [emphasis mine]. Do I take that to mean that you haven't re-invested these increased F2P revenues up to this point? That would explain a lot about ROI...

I think the point is that new regions are literally *years* in development. In other words, we should start seeing the benefit of all the F2P money sometime this year, at least in regards to expansion size.

I hope that is the way it is, anyway.

Originally Posted by kerryak

Alot of that depends if it the same virtue only cost "200 wargs" before the store was added to the game.

Actually, the wargs went from 400 before the store in a lower tier zone, to 360 in the next few tiers and 300 in the ROI release. So the count was reduced, not increased.

Originally Posted by Abiyah

I'll add my thanks here, Sapience-- this is a first step in the long road Turbine has ahead of them. However, along with others, there are still misgivings. Kudos for stating the realization that communication, clear and open communication, is needed; but what about internal comms?

Adam Mersky, with the title of Director of Digital Communications, stated in the interview with Massively end-game/raid gear won't be sold "at this time". You state here a pretty definitive "we will not sell end-game gear." Who is talking truth?

The two statements aren't compatible; don't even try to dress them up as such. If there is no clear internal communication apparent, why should this post of yours here be seen as such?

I very much appreciate that the concerns are being addressed.

"We won't sell end gear" and "we have no plans to sell end gear at this time" are not contradictory statements. Despite what the paranoid people on the forums want you to believe, "at this time" doesn't mean they were planning on doing it eventually.

Originally Posted by JRonnie

Buying a scroll for the final tier 2 hard mode raid boss fight that reduces all incoming damage by 5% as well as stacks of the best morale and power pots available in the game (all only from the store) versus making the fight that much harder on yourselves by not buying that 'advantage' (in my opinion, but obviously not Turbines). That's what so disgusting to some of us.

Luckily there is nothing like this in the store so you don't have an issue.

Thank you Sapience. Turbine's failure to communicate with its customers was a major factor in my decision pre-RoI to not log into the game again (can't unsubscribe, I'm a lifer and I love MiddleEarth, so hope remains.../I have no interest in playing any other MMO).

I'll keep watching the forums/Turbine posts. But I won't log in until Turbine changes its Store interpretation of 'end game convenience' (stat tomes, pots, creep skills, etc.), starts fixing bugs asap, and comes up with something more imaginative/creative than the endless and meaningless legendary grind.

I love the virtual world you guys created for us to wander around in, and thankyou for the experiences I had for a time. If Turbine changes enough, I'll be back.

Originally Posted by Zarador

Actually, the wargs went from 400 before the store in a lower tier zone, to 360 in the next few tiers and 300 in the ROI release. So the count was reduced, not increased.

my generalized point was that "intentionallyt making the grind worse to encourage store sales" is a different scenario than "offering options to bypass gameplay."

If you want to cite specifics, it's your internet.

Personally, I do all the deeds and could care less if someone buys Virtues. Virtues cap, and I am well above said caps. It's their dollar, and no advantage is provided - just time.

Originally Posted by Sapience

Hi everyone

First of all, this post (and putting it in the official discussion threads) is an improvement, and your followup post and kudos for having the honesty & guts to post this:

Originally Posted by Sapience

We appreciate that fact and all we ask is that you view this as the first step on that long haul.

That demonstrates at least a serious willingness to try. As others have stated, it will be measured over time, but there isn't more to say on that now.

My two primary concerns were the lack of availability of equal power armour outside the store and the ability to convert TP into gold.

As for equal power...

Originally Posted by Sapience

In the meantime we certainly heard the concerns about the power-level of the items and their silver value and are already reviewing how to adjust going forward. The items may stay or they may go. They may also be changed to better serve the needs of the game. We’ll know more in a few weeks.

I will await some official communication, though my expectations on that were already made clear previously:

Originally Posted by uvm.tp

What irks me is that it's basically level 28-power armour available at level 20. So this is way beyond convenience and bordering on game-imbalancing. Not only do we have the differentiation [of Bind on Account], we have improved capabilities over anything available in game at the same level.

...on the gold front:

Originally Posted by Sapience

• The items can be sold for Gold!

True. They can.

Which does not address the issue with TP being converted to gold on a compromised account. I know it's not something that is comfortable to talk about, but (a) is that a serious concern for you [because it IS a serious concern for many of us] and if so (b) What is the specific plan to change these items and the policy you have put in place to avoid creating this scenario (TP->Gold) in the future? Alternately, what is your policy change with respect to TP purchases being refundable if an account is compromised and used to convert real currency to in-game gold?

Since I've just phrased those questions in an evil and diabolical way (aka false dilemma), let me note here that this doesn't need to be a false dilemma of "Can things in the store ever be sold for gold?" It may require development expense to avoid that dilemma, but consider a few things:
(1) There could be a method of avoiding the sale of certain items. I can lock certain channels on my TV (parent restrictions or some such), so why not have a way to lock certain (types of) items? Even with that, there are many potential implementations:

(1a) It requires a separate code to "unlock" that - a code _separate_ from the account password (this is obviously important). This code would have been put in when the items were "locked".

(1b) The account could have a switch that can turn off sales of such items, and when/if the switch is turned back on, any CC information is deleted or at least disabled until it is verified in some way independent of the account password.

(1c) The account could have a switch that can turn off sales of such items, and when/if the switch is turned back on, sends an e-mail to the owning e-mail address [may need to send to any in the entire account history to avoid problems of "hacker" changing the account email?] AND puts a 14-day cooldown on the ability to purchase such items (in other words, we have time to react to that e-mail before real money can be charged... or at least before it can be converted into gold)

Obviously, 1b suffers from a timing attack, in that buying lots of TP and then enabling the armour purchase would be possible, so you'd need some behavior / timing matching here as well to prevent problems if that choice is used (e.g. lock the account lots of TP are purchased right before the armor switch is flipped). (I happen to think 1b is the ugliest of the 3 as far as customer support work in validation, so I'd recommend against it, but just being complete in the list)

There are probably more options, but I'm not thinking of them quickly...

Originally Posted by Ellyllon

Which does not address the issue with TP being converted to gold on a compromised account. I know it's not something that is comfortable to talk about, but (a) is that a serious concern for you [because it IS a serious concern for many of us] and if so (b) What is the specific plan to change these items and the policy you have put in place to avoid creating this scenario (TP->Gold) in the future? Alternately, what is your policy change with respect to TP purchases being refundable if an account is compromised and used to convert real currency to in-game gold?

Why is that a concern? If your account gets hacked you can enter a ticket and get your stuff back. Are you worried that they won't refund any TPs that were spent on armour which was then sold?

This thread is a good step in the right direction as far as communicating with the players goes. Hopefully there will be more steps to follow and Turbine will actually get to where it needs to be in the Turbine-player base communications dynamic. While I liked hearing the explanations of recent decisions made by Turbine as of late, there were some things I felt (as have others previously responding here) needed some more explanation/discussion.

Originally Posted by Sapience

This drive for ongoing commercial success generally works in everyone’s favor. The launch of LOTRO’s F2P version, for instance, multiplied monthly audiences and provided an increase in revenues which we will re-invest in the game. We’ve been ramping up for some time now and you’ll start to see more evidence of that re-investment this year in the form of major new content and game systems.

While I was OK with ROI, many have expressed their displeasure with the expansion on these forums. This major new game content and game systems is going to have to surpass ROI if you expect to convince people the revenues are being re-invested.

Originally Posted by Sapience

In addition to new development, one of the benefits of our recent success with LOTRO is an increased investment in marketing and advertising. It’s not easy for current players to see, but the fact is that we get thousands of new players in LOTRO every single day. It’s that flow of new players that’s caused a difference in viewpoints between some of us at Turbine and some of you who play the game.

That last sentence needs more explanation. What exactly are those different viewpoints? There are already scores of posts by veteran players stating that they feel Turbine does not care about them anymore, only the new players. The statement in the quote above does nothing to alleviate those fears.

Originally Posted by Sapience

• Turbine said that they would never sell gear in the store.

If we did, we apologize. We give a lot of interviews and talk to lots of people at tradeshows. Our official line is and has been that we don’t sell end-game gear.

Don’t give us this “If we did” stuff. That’s for politicians and celebrities. You either did say it or you did not say it. If you were misquoted in an interview, say so. If a Turbine employee made a statement on the forums that they should not have, say so.

Originally Posted by Sapience

We’ve been very consistent with one message since announcing our move to F2P: We don’t sell end game gear, but we may introduce starter items or packs in the future like DDO. We’ve tried to be as open and straightforward as we can on this and other points.

You may believe you were consistent but what’s really consistent is how us players and several websites that have done interviews with Turbine employees all reached the same conclusion: Turbine said they would not sell gear in the store. Like I said above, if someone has stated something attributed to Turbine that is patently false, say so. It doesn’t matter to us at this point whether you think you were consistent. One way or another we were lead to believe gear would not be sold.

Originally Posted by Sapience

• Patience said convenience, not advantage.

Very true. It’s one of our guiding principles. Some people have time, others have money and when players are willing to trade money for time we usually consider that a convenience. Our goal is to allow players to customize their play experience to deliver as much fun per hour of play as they want without impacting the play of others.

Tell me then, exactly how much time should I expect to spend in the game before I come across a store exclusive relic or mount? The mounts don’t bother me as much since they are mainly there for appearance and speed equivalent mounts can be earned in game but explain to us all how relics fit in. It is impossible to get a store exclusive relic in game. That is why the above statement tastes a lie to so many.

And let’s not forget stat tomes. For most of us, for all intents and purposes they do not exist in game. I have seen four drop in game and did not win the roll for any of them. If I were to specifically dedicate all my time to locating and acquiring stat tomes in game I could spend years and still not get them. Further complicating things is the restriction put into place that says you must use lower tier tomes before the higher tier ones despite the fact they are identical in all but name only. They need to drop more frequently in game and you should be able to use any of them at any time except for the specific tiers you’ve already acquired (level restrictions on the higher tiers would be acceptable). Only then would I accept the premise that the store is an alternative means to acquire tomes instead of the only means.

Originally Posted by Sapience

• What’s not a convenience?

Anything that’s compulsory to be competitive in ranked play or achieves something by degrading another player’s experience. We have not and will not make that part of our F2P offering.

I think the more important question here is “What is an advantage?” Advantage is not defined as lacking convenience. Stat tomes and store exclusive relics offer an advantage to those who do not buy them in the store. Morale/Power pots with separate cooldowns from the in game counterparts are an advantage (and putting them in as one time quest rewards is not the same thing as making them available in game). I would not have a problem with any of these items existing in the store if only they existed in some meaningful way in the game.

Originally Posted by Sapience

To make it perfectly clear:
We will not sell end-game gear.

We will hold you to this. We better not see a thread like this in a year’s time referring to this quote with the words “If we did, we apologize”.

Originally Posted by Sapience

That brings us to our final point: communication.

We’ll take this as a sign that we need to do a better job in clear and open communication. In the future we will take more time to explain why - not just what we’re doing.

I am glad that you have finally reached this conclusion. Many players have been asking for more communication from Turbine and recently it has become much more difficult to take things on faith. More threads like this explaining your intentions and how you arrived at them will go a long way to restore our faith in you, provided that you really do listen to our feedback and act on it accordingly.

Originally Posted by PerinStone

"We won't sell end gear" and "we have no plans to sell end gear at this time" are not contradictory statements. Despite what the paranoid people on the forums want you to believe, "at this time" doesn't mean they were planning on doing it eventually.

Actually I read it differently. We will not sell end-game gear." Of course they won't as it would invalidate all their current endgaming content. I'm not worried about it.

However, nothing forbids them to sell items and gear for level 20 onwards. What about for instance a nice entry Moria set for level 50 or LIs level 55 for your convenience or the full OD set level 65. Technically, none of these is endgame gear. So Sapience's statement, while appreciated, is deliberately vague, as it leaves open any possibility for the store.
In fact, for a business point of view, if I were them, I will do the same thing and sooner or later make some nice level XX armor, provided they are not level 75. It would be utopic not to expect some will hit the Store in the future.

However, I'm an old-school player who still believes achievement and the community is everything in a MMO. The Store kills both.

Originally Posted by JRonnie

Buying a scroll for the final tier 2 hard mode raid boss fight that reduces all incoming damage by 5% as well as stacks of the best morale and power pots available in the game (all only from the store) versus making the fight that much harder on yourselves by not buying that 'advantage' (in my opinion, but obviously not Turbines). That's what so disgusting to some of us.

Originally Posted by PerinStone

Luckily there is nothing like this in the store so you don't have an issue.

The Tome of Defence (75 TP) that "decreases damage taken from melee, ranged, and tactical attacks by 5% for 90 minutes" says otherwise, as do the Tier 8 Morale and Power Potions that provide an initial burst heal followed by a 10s HoT (on a 20s cooldown) - none of these items are available in-game, not even for Destiny Points. (In fact, a dev stated quite some time back that the HoT morale and power pots would never be in the game - why do I feel like this is one promise from the start of F2P that will be kept?)

Anyway... yeah. The items that JRonnie is talking about do actually exist, but they aren't exclusively available to those doing a Tier 2 raid boss fight, if you want to pick that nit. Regardless, they most definitely do exist, despite your inaccurate assertion otherwise.

Originally Posted by PerinStone

"We won't sell end gear" and "we have no plans to sell end gear at this time" are not contradictory statements. Despite what the paranoid people on the forums want you to believe, "at this time" doesn't mean they were planning on doing it eventually.

"At this time" doesn't preclude any plans either, whereas "We won't" is definitive; that is why the two statments are not compatible. Sapience is a community manager. Adam Mersky is Director of Digital Communications. One makes one statement, the other another. Which one are we to believe? That it could happen, as Mersky suggests, or that it won't, as Sapience says? I want a clarification, and forgive me, Perin, but your words on the matter doesn't do it for me.

Originally Posted by Lestache

The Tome of Defence (75 TP) that "decreases damage taken from melee, ranged, and tactical attacks by 5% for 90 minutes" says otherwise, as do the Tier 8 Morale and Power Potions that provide an initial burst heal followed by a 10s HoT (on a 20s cooldown) - none of these items are available in-game, not even for Destiny Points. (In fact, a dev stated quite some time back that the HoT morale and power pots would never be in the game - why do I feel like this is one promise from the start of F2P that will be kept?)

Anyway... yeah. The items that JRonnie is talking about do actually exist, but they aren't exclusively available to those doing a Tier 2 raid boss fight, if you want to pick that nit. Regardless, they most definitely do exist, despite your inaccurate assertion otherwise.

Beat me to it. . .

Now combine those with the +70 per stat available exclusively in the store as well as the fact that only people willing to buy store-only relic removal scrolls are bothering to slot any relics above tier 4 nowadays, and you've got yourself quite a lot of uberness that is only available in the store.

At some point, should this trend continue (+100 per stat?) it's going to be hard to design content that will be challenging for those not purchasing these things and yet not laughably easy for those that do.

Not sure why someone would deny that such things exist. Except, of course, that they default to the "everything is fine, that can't possibly be true" mode.

Originally Posted by Mandella

I think the point is that new regions are literally *years* in development. In other words, we should start seeing the benefit of all the F2P money sometime this year, at least in regards to expansion size.

I hope that is the way it is, anyway.

Mandella, I think that's an (overly?) optimistic, albeit possible, interpretation.


Let me put it this way: If you were drafting Sapience's post (or one of the doubtless many people reviewing it) and Turbine had hired more staff or redirected more funds to LOTRO development in 2011 after all that supposed F2P money was coming in, wouldn't you have changed the wording to say "we are re-investing" in the game?


The fact that the future-tense 'will' was used seems purposeful to me. (And I'm speaking as someone who used to draft press guidance for a government agency on a daily basis). I'd love to be proven wrong about this, but to do so would require Turbine to share more info than they'd be comfortable with.


Moreover, if you're expecting to see big new things this year, then Turbine probably needs to have made these investments already given the lead time for developing content.


In any event, that's just one of many things problematic with Sapience's statement which others have addressed more fully.

By selling gear with stats turbine broke what many would consider to be a golden rule of the microtransaction based model. Take a hard look at other mmos that do this, is that really the direction you want lotro to head in? I dislike the store only relics and stat tomes but can live with them. I despise the lootbox gambling and stat armour. The only thing that would reassure me is turbine removing them.

The evendim revamp including the wardens of annuminas rep gear addressed what some considered a plateau in the levelling process in the 30's. Perhaps the barrow downs armour needs to be easier to obtain? Have the mini bosses from Executioner_of_the_Wicked deed in barrow downs drop some decent armour for 20ish level characters or a revamp of low level crafting. Perhaps crafters turn in crafted gear to a quartermaster type character for rep and craft xp and other players can then buy these items or trade for barrow treasures?

There are plenty of viable alternatives to selling stat gear in the store, if Turbine selling stat armour isn't a money grab and travelling further down a slippery slope find an alternative.

Originally Posted by Hurin

Now combine those with the +70 per stat available exclusively in the store as well as the fact that only people willing to buy store-only relic removal scrolls are bothering to slot any relics above tier 4 nowadays, and you've got yourself quite a lot of uberness that is only available in the store.

A bit off-topic, but a question that's been in my head for awhile-- do the stat tomes all stack on each other? Are they additive, or does only the most current one take precedence? If the latter, then previous TP expenditures are lost; if the former, then that +70 is actually +280.

Originally Posted by Lestache

The Tome of Defence (75 TP) that "decreases damage taken from melee, ranged, and tactical attacks by 5% for 90 minutes" says otherwise, as do the Tier 8 Morale and Power Potions that provide an initial burst heal followed by a 10s HoT (on a 20s cooldown) - none of these items are available in-game, not even for Destiny Points. (In fact, a dev stated quite some time back that the HoT morale and power pots would never be in the game - why do I feel like this is one promise from the start of F2P that will be kept?)

Anyway... yeah. The items that JRonnie is talking about do actually exist, but they aren't exclusively available to those doing a Tier 2 raid boss fight, if you want to pick that nit. Regardless, they most definitely do exist, despite your inaccurate assertion otherwise.

I stand corrected, I didn't know about the scrolls.

Originally Posted by Abiyah

A bit off-topic, but a question that's been in my head for awhile-- do the stat tomes all stack on each other? Are they additive, or does only the most current one take precedence? If the latter, then previous TP expenditures are lost; if the former, then that +70 is actually +280.

They're additive.

Originally Posted by PerinStone

I stand corrected, I didn't know about the scrolls.

Any chance that this will actually change your viewpoint, though?

One would assume you doubted such a thing existed because such a thing shouldn't exist. Now that you know that it does, perhaps it's time to join us in decrying its existence.