Thread: A word about the new gear offerings in the LOTRO Store

Unless the loot from lockboxes is not bind to account, or unbound, it will not fix much, if anything at all.

Also comment I have is about the fact where they drop, or from what mobs. My understanding is, lockboxes drop from landscape monster, right?

Which me, being lvl 75 does not concern me at all.

For the last 2-3 months, I have killed maybe 10 000 mobs. About 20 of them were lvl 74+ landscape mobs.

I am either killing low lvl mobs for virtues, or mobs in instances, skirmishes, raids. I don't remember the last time(except for doing daily quests in Isengard, which I did for a week max), so it does not matter that the drop rate of boxes is increased at all.

First of all, my feedback is that relic removal scrolls should have chance to be in challenge mode chests in 3/6mans, and any chest in 12man raids.

I absolutely dislike the idea of putting them in lockboxes, but if that is the direction you want to take, then make lockboxes and keys drop in every content for lvl 75. As I demonstrated, fact they drop from landscape mobs is irrelevant.

*Notices how quiet it has gotten. . .*

Fix stat tomes?

Originally Posted by Hurin

*Notices how quiet it has gotten. . .*

Fix stat tomes?

People get tired of voicing displeasure that results in nothing and move on. Looking forward to the day when Turbine realizes they've messed up.

Originally Posted by knowfere

People get tired of voicing displeasure that results in nothing and move on. Looking forward to the day when Turbine realizes they've messed up.

Didn't result in nothing. They are taking steps. Most of us are just waiting for some of those to be implemented to see how they work out.

Originally Posted by Fin.

Unless the loot from lockboxes is not bind to account, or unbound, it will not fix much, if anything at all.

They seem to be unbound. I seen one on the AH today. Someone was trying to sell it for 15g.

On the other hand, I did make 5g off of a Sturdy Steel Key.

Originally Posted by Hurin

I don't know about you, but having a chance to get a box, then a chance to get a key, and then after all that a chance to get a relic removal scroll for an LI that I need/want to deconstruct. . . that sounds silly given that I was able to deconstruct them at will prior to Turbine's store-centric manipulations of the system.

In the end, though it's ostensibly a first step and a stop-gap measure, it smacks of the same type of "it's technically available in the game. . . but not really" technicality Turbine uses to justify Stat Tomes being in the store.

--H

Well, the %'s mirrors my chance of logging in, and then my chance of playing a character @ endgame over a character that's still exploring pre-LI eriador (or as my friends and I call it "pre-Zynga LOTRO"), and then my chance of actually *staying* online after opening my LI panel. ;D

for those of you who are angry,
what is the point, first of all Turbine will do whatever they think will give them the most players..........

and in this case they are trying to get new players to enjoy the game more to stick around, if you don't like it why would they care if 100 people boycott the game if they get 300 more players to stay and pay, I just don't see the problem.

Originally Posted by Branywine

for those of you who are angry,
what is the point, first of all Turbine will do whatever they think will give them the most players..........

No, they will do whatever they think will generate the most revenue. Having more players month-to-month isn't the ultimate goal. And the two need not be related.

and in this case they are trying to get new players to enjoy the game more to stick around, if you don't like it why would they care if 100 people boycott the game if they get 300 more players to stay and pay, I just don't see the problem.

What you are describing is a more profitable situation for Turbine. But it does not necessarily follow that they will gain players in the long-run. Rather, they are likely to gain players that don't see anything inherently wrong with "pay to win" or "pay for advantage." Those players are more likely to spend money hand-over-fist on things that other players refuse to buy on principle.

So yes, this policy may help them retain low-level players even as more and more decisions like this will cause them to lose long-term players. But what seems important is that the types of players they retain will likely be more receptive to the current business model and less likely to take issue with the conflicts of interest and manipulations it entails.

So, in the end, they might even have fewer players. But those players will be less picky about things like a game's integrity or "paying to win," and they will be gladly handing over their cash to Turbine without all the drama.

In the end, a lot of people lose a game they love. And yet Turbine makes more money off of those that stay.

--H

Originally Posted by Hurin

So, in the end, they might even have fewer players. But those players will be less picky about things like a game's integrity or "paying to win," and they will be gladly handing over their cash to Turbine without all the drama.

In the end, a lot of people lose a game they love. And yet Turbine makes more money off of those that stay.

--H

QFT.

*cough*SWG*cough*

And honestly, I think that's all I have to say.

Not sure if anyone mentioned it, but thou must also remember that these items are designed for new players. Some which are prolly still trying out everything about the game. I don't doubt a big percentage read the forums, but I must doubt how big percentage of these new players read the forums. Just saying, these are designed for people you might find the lack of response from.


But but but, the all big issue with these new items was not all that much about that. I know. But still ;P.


Besides that, I personally think low level help is a great idea. Especially because its backed up with the fact that it makes players stick around for even longer. :P

Originally Posted by Frathir3

Not sure if anyone mentioned it, but thou must also remember that these items are designed for new players. Some which are prolly still trying out everything about the game. I don't doubt a big percentage read the forums, but I must doubt how big percentage of these new players read the forums. Just saying, these are designed for people you might find the lack of response from.


But but but, the all big issue with these new items was not all that much about that. I know. But still ;P.


Besides that, I personally think low level help is a great idea. Especially because its backed up with the fact that it makes players stick around for even longer. :P

When players can receive help through items that do NOT require them to go to the Turbine Store, I'll agree with you. This isn't even helping new players -- this is finding a new way to rip them off.

Btw, nice move unstickying this thread Turbine. Subtle.

Originally Posted by myfreezr2

When players can receive help through items that do NOT require them to go to the Turbine Store, I'll agree with you. This isn't even helping new players -- this is finding a new way to rip them off.

Btw, nice move unstickying this thread Turbine. Subtle.

And there's also the bit where new players will suffer disappointment with crafted items on the AH since the stuff in the store is so much better...

Enough people have commented on the opinions of established / higher level players already. I'm not going to do that even though I've been around awhile. What I'm thinking of is my experience as a kinship officer and as someone who has met new players regularly over the past several months... and this is my opinion:

If people are upset about beginner level gear being sold in the store (I am not even going to TOUCH the whole high level relics, etc. issue) then either they are upset at losing revenue through crafting/auctioning, or maybe they are somewhat out of touch with what newer players are actually experiencing in LOTRO these days. Most of the new (or lower level in general) players I know feel COMPLETELY alienated by the higher level players in the community right now. Very little support in crafting, kinships, etc. is one complaint I've heard; another is the simple lack of lower-level ANYTHING in the auction house as players clamor around Westfold crafting. I recently started a new character myself in order to share the fun with a friend and I've seen this firsthand. Fortunately, I have resources to make or trade for whatever I may need in game, and I have a great bunch of friends. Most lower level players don't have either of these things.

Complain all you want about Turbine offering a basic starter package to new characters. Unless we as a community make an effort to recognize and immerse newcomers, the community itself is at risk of collapsing.

Originally Posted by Idgetated

Enough people have commented on the opinions of established / higher level players already. I'm not going to do that even though I've been around awhile. What I'm thinking of is my experience as a kinship officer and as someone who has met new players regularly over the past several months... and this is my opinion:

If people are upset about beginner level gear being sold in the store (I am not even going to TOUCH the whole high level relics, etc. issue) then either they are upset at losing revenue through crafting/auctioning, or maybe they are somewhat out of touch with what newer players are actually experiencing in LOTRO these days. Most of the new (or lower level in general) players I know feel COMPLETELY alienated by the higher level players in the community right now. Very little support in crafting, kinships, etc. is one complaint I've heard; another is the simple lack of lower-level ANYTHING in the auction house as players clamor around Westfold crafting. I recently started a new character myself in order to share the fun with a friend and I've seen this firsthand. Fortunately, I have resources to make or trade for whatever I may need in game, and I have a great bunch of friends. Most lower level players don't have either of these things.

Complain all you want about Turbine offering a basic starter package to new characters. Unless we as a community make an effort to recognize and immerse newcomers, the community itself is at risk of collapsing.

If Tubine's goal was truly to help, make it easier for new players....they could have easily done it WITHOUT using the store.
I know this has been said before...but I'll say it again: revamping the early quests to give better gear, revamping crafting, getting rid of crits, adding better drops to instances/skirmish rewards.

They never even tried. Perhaps if they had used the store as a last result...instead that was the FIRST place they went. The store is thrown at you so much, that new players start to think that is the way it's done.

They did this, even after causing a huge uproar. They did NOT say this was only a temporary solution until they added new things. They also made the 'store kits' BETTER than the crafted crit gear that can be made for that level.

The way they handled the armor (and now Destiny Points) show the direction they want to be going.

Originally Posted by Idgetated

Complain all you want about Turbine offering a basic starter package to new characters. Unless we as a community make an effort to recognize and immerse newcomers, the community itself is at risk of collapsing.

I totaly agree! we need to use the AH to offer low level cheap armor and weapons.
so while you are complaing low lvl are buying this stuff right? flood the AH with armor, and weapons.
don't do it to make money, do it to help the low lvls


I do agree that they should be able to get better armor in game then at the store. turbine please ether lower the armor at the store or make the low lvl armor in game better!

Originally Posted by Sapience

• Patience said convenience, not advantage.

Very true. It’s one of our guiding principles. Some people have time, others have money and when players are willing to trade money for time we usually consider that a convenience. Our goal is to allow players to customize their play experience to deliver as much fun per hour of play as they want without impacting the play of others.

• What’s not a convenience?

Anything that’s compulsory to be competitive in ranked play or achieves something by degrading another player’s experience. We have not and will not make that part of our F2P offering.

• To make it perfectly clear:
  We will not sell end-game gear.

It's amazing how many people disagree with that definition of advantage/convenience. Anywho...This is how I see end-game gear: we get it for the STATS to make our toons better. It's not that fact that it's "gear" -- it's the fact that it's STATS which make our toon the best they can be. So when talking about stat tomes, stats = gear. And because it enhances stats beyond what one could get in game, stat tomes = end-game "gear."

Do you sell end-game gear in the lotro store? Yes. Turbine simply gives it a different name. Not all of us can be fooled so easily

Originally Posted by timmyloo22546

It's amazing how many people disagree with that definition of advantage/convenience. Anywho...This is how I see end-game gear: we get it for the STATS to make our toons better. It's not that fact that it's "gear" -- it's the fact that it's STATS which make our toon the best they can be. So when talking about stat tomes, stats = gear. And because it enhances stats beyond what one could get in game, stat tomes = end-game "gear."

Do you sell end-game gear in the lotro store? Yes. Turbine simply gives it a different name. Not all of us can be fooled so easily

Well stat gear from the store at least requires you to drop your old in-game armour with all the stats that one had. If they would offer an item that would just *pop* add stats and not require you to drop anything in exchange that would be really outrageous.

Originally Posted by Darmokk

Well stat gear from the store at least requires you to drop your old in-game armour with all the stats that one had. If they would offer an item that would just *pop* add stats and not require you to drop anything in exchange that would be really outrageous.

Perhaps you're being subtle/facetious. But that's exactly what stat tomes do. Which is why they are the most egregious example of abuse of the business model and a violation of every principle and promise stated by Turbine since the new business model was introduced.

Originally Posted by Hurin

Perhaps you're being subtle/facetious. But that's exactly what stat tomes do. Which is why they are the most egregious example of abuse of the business model and a violation of every principle and promise stated by Turbine since the new business model was introduced.

Yeah I was counting on people's sarcasm detector.

But there isn't much hope, people see only what they want to see. The Überpotions have been in the shop from day one, and they are in the same category: boosts in the store than do not even replace in-game boosts, pure adds (they don't even share a cooldown with the regular potions, not that it matters much since they are 5x more powerful anyway). People with a clear mind could see where things are going from the beginning and never be surprised by shop armor which really is the smaller problem.

But there is the psychological hurdle that the armour is mentally closer to the things you go after to grind for in the game, so people get more upset about that one. As opposed to things that have never been doing the grind for. Nice trick that, and it worked.

Originally Posted by Darmokk

Yeah I was counting on people's sarcasm detector.

But there isn't much hope, people see only what they want to see. The Überpotions have been in the shop from day one, and they are in the same category: boosts in the store than do not even replace in-game boosts, pure adds (they don't even share a cooldown with the regular potions, not that it matters much since they are 5x more powerful anyway). People with a clear mind could see where things are going from the beginning and never be surprised by shop armor which really is the smaller problem.

That is so true! stats are cheating. in game should be so much better, it would in turbines best intrest if they would make every thing in game. from the riding skill to new areas!



but turbine wants money!!!!!!!!!!!! and it is not in the best interest of the players

come on turbine get it right!!!!

Originally Posted by Branywine

That is so true! stats are cheating. in game should be so much better, it would in turbines best intrest if they would make every thing in game. from the riding skill to new areas!



but turbine wants money!!!!!!!!!!!! and it is not in the best interest of the players

come on turbine get it right!!!!

Well if people want to spend cash that's fine with me, even if there is a stat increase.

However, instead of selling stats straight, Turbine could have decided to let you pay to achieve stats quicker. Not to mention that's what they originally said they do.

I would also prefer that if you equip or use a shop item with stats or stat-like behavior that you have to give up one of your old items. That's why I think people are just confusing themselves when they get all upset about the store armour now, although this armour at least requires you to toss you previous armour (shop or not) while stat tomes and Ueberpotions are just stat popping.

The one thing I will say re: the sturdy lockboxes - I've seen more orange stat tomes in the T2-5 range on the AH at a wider variety of stats/tiers since the patch than I've seen teal in a very long time. It's part of what's been missing with the dropped/teal tomes - the in-game player market, though it would be nice to see quite a few more.

And to follow-up for selling lower-tier crit crafted armour on the AH - I've sold >1,500 T1-3 items over the past weeks. Some detail I posted a little while back. There's an incredible market still for craft armour that I know I could never keep up with.

making low lvl crit armor is the best thing we can do. Now Lotro enthusiasts make the low lvl armor!
take the 2 hours and make some good armor and weapons!!!!!!!!!!!!!

turbine make in game stuff better than stuff in the store

From the BR patch notes for U6:

Originally Posted by Sapience

By Player Request & Suggestion

• Virtues have been extended to Rank 14.
• Stat Tomes from Sturdy Steel Lockboxes: fix for old version that would allow you to use the same tier more than once (to no effect). New drops will only have tomes that are unusable if you have already used the same one in the past.
  
• Stat Tomes and Relic Removal Scrolls: all tiers of stat tomes and the relic removal scroll can now drop from the final bosses in scaled instances.
• All items that are restricted to a character class or a small selection of character classes have been removed from the lockboxes.
  
• Melding recipes for the store exclusive relics can now be found in game on the Relic Forging Master.
• Marks, Medallions, Seals, and Relic Currency are all now bind to account.
• Worn Symbols of Celebrimbor are now available via Skirmish barter vendors.

/clap /bravo

Seriously, with the combination of the increased drop rate of tomes from lootboxes (and thus increase availibility of tomes on the AH and in the player economy), increase drop rate of keys, adding keys, more relic scrolls to the lottery and thus the economy, adding the store-exclusive relics to the melding panel, and hopefully the possible drop of relic removal scrolls - these are some very positive adjustments in areas where I have been concerned since F2P launched and over time. Sure, we'll have to watch how it all pans out as these most recent changes are BR release notes only just announced, but /thank you.

Originally Posted by Fipiara

From the BR patch notes for U6:



/clap /bravo

Seriously, with the combination of the increased drop rate of tomes from lootboxes (and thus increase availibility of tomes on the AH and in the player economy), increase drop rate of keys, adding keys, more relic scrolls to the lottery and thus the economy, adding the store-exclusive relics to the melding panel, and hopefully the possible drop of relic removal scrolls - these are some very positive adjustments in areas where I have been concerned since F2P launched and over time. Sure, we'll have to watch how it all pans out as these most recent changes are BR release notes only just announced, but /thank you.

I agree. First set of patch notes in quite some time that I'm pretty much happy about. I am interested to see what the drop rate of relic removal scrolls is, but at least they're ostensibly back in-game again.

Wow, with all of those changes and moving so many things from near-exclusives in the store to actually being obtainable in the game, and some of the other criticisms fixed... I'm impressed. Good job if these stick.

now to get over there and read the rest of the patch notes.

Count me among those whose nerd rage has been assuaged a bit. Stat Tomes were obviously my main bugaboo. Their inclusion as more or less standard loot within the game (rather than just in keyed boxes) is a huge step.

A big thanks to those at Turbine who are perhaps fighting the good fight and winning these concessions for us from those who would prefer to leave such things as store exclusives. Or maybe I'm wrong and these things are being done with nearly unanimous support from everyone behind the scenes. Who knows? It's just a good development and I'm grateful.

Best Regards,

H

I agree, good job Turbine, my rage has died down markedly since reading these notes, I may even give you money again. Good job with the new wallet too, THAT is an example of how you can improve the game and charge for your efforts, I have no problem whatsoever with it (some people will no doubt moan 995TP is too high but I think it's in line).

+rep for Turbine.

Originally Posted by Fipiara

Seriously, with the combination of the increased drop rate of tomes from lootboxes (and thus increase availibility of tomes on the AH and in the player economy), increase drop rate of keys, adding keys, more relic scrolls to the lottery and thus the economy, adding the store-exclusive relics to the melding panel, and hopefully the possible drop of relic removal scrolls - these are some very positive adjustments in areas where I have been concerned since F2P launched and over time. Sure, we'll have to watch how it all pans out as these most recent changes are BR release notes only just announced, but /thank you.

Yes, I agree. I'm pleased with the listed changes in U6 and hope they resolve most of the issues I have with the offerings. I'd still like to see a few more steps in this direction, but overall I am quite pleased.

I've sat on the sidelines for the most part. I'm not a hard-core player. I log probably 6 hours a week on average. I don't usually get involved in raid and end-game content. I'm usually content with plodding along, on my own, enjoying the scenery and epic storyline. I've never had much to say about PvP, since I suck at it and I've been fairly quiet about the F2P, because, while I feel it cheapens the game some, it is a necessary evil, to help keep the game alive, which in the end is best.

I've been playing since opening week, back in 2007. I've watched all the changes come through, mostly with anticipation; excited to see the story progress. For the most part, it just serves as fodder for my old-man stories. ("When I started, you couldn't ride a horse till lvl 35, and then it cost you 4.3 gold. And getting 4.3 gold took you a couple weeks of grinding.")

I get the purpose of F2P. I get the purpose of TP and the store. But the store should be there for F2P players to keep up with VIP players. Why does it seem like VIP players are second class citizens? I have been playing and paying since April of 2007. Shouldn't that count for something? Shouldn't I have something to show from that? A founding player who has held a kinship all that time, someone who has worked harder than any F2P player will ever know. ( To get my Evendim horse back in 2007-2008, I ground for two weeks straight, logging at least 60 hours for the rep and the gold to buy the horse. A few months ago, I got to kindred in Evendim on my RK without even trying. I think it took me three days. )

Sure, it's nice to spend some TP to open up a new legendary item slot, or extra storage in my vault, but it shouldn't be the only option. I thought the original purpose of the store was to entice F2P players into becoming VIP. The store should be a stepping stone, leading players to become VIP. If you insist on offering boosts like stat tomes, xp boost, etc then make it more attractive to become VIP.

For example: You can spend TP on Tomes and such, but only VIP players can CRAFT those same items. Any item offered in the store should be made available for crafting by VIP players only. Come half way to us, Turbine. Make it more attractive to be VIP.

I don't expect you will ever do anything for people like me or kins like mine. I doubt I will ever get a special set of cosmetic gear, mount, housing, extra space, title or buffs for being loyal to the game since 2007. (While it feels like a slap in the face to those of us that have been here all along, we know better than to expect anything like that.) But let's keep things fair. At least make it LOOK like it's not only about the money.

Meet us half way. Make it worth it to us. Stop catering to F2P and remember those who are actually subscribing.

Originally Posted by Ranhad

Meet us half way. Make it worth it to us. Stop catering to F2P and remember those who are actually subscribing.

The issue here is the "F2P" players actually end up spending more than a VIP... when you subscribe, you set aside $15 a month and that's pretty much it. When a F2P player needs something, he buys TP on the spot to get it... and most don't usually keep track of how much they've spent in a month so it's not unusually for them to actually dump $30-60 a month on TP without realizing it. So VIPs are technically second-class citizens to micro-pay F2Pers (as far as income to Turbine goes).

Nice post.

I personally see no issue with selling gear, but I have one small question.

What will be the highest level gear that will be available based on the level cap?

By this I mean level cap is currently 75, do you sell gear that is good unto 45, 55, 65, 70?

Is the idea to stop offering gear with in 10 levels of cap or up to the previous expansion?

Well, I think Turbine just needs to listen to our openions

Originally Posted by Sapience

As we approach the release of Update 5.2, it seems like a good time to drop in and catch you all up with some of the things we're working on. Both for this update (5.2), and for Update 6 and beyond.

As a first step to addressing some of your feedback, starting in Update 5.2, we're adding Relic Removal scrolls to the Lock box system. In addition, we're increasing the drop rate of lock boxes in general and significantly increasing the drop rate of lock box keys. This is a first step (as it was one of the easier things to do quickly in time for our next release) and we'll be looking at more ways to add these into existing gameplay mechanics.

We're also investigating some of your suggestions for adding the new store gear to the game. Yes, we have heard all the crafters and your suggestions to make the store gear craftable is one of the options we're considering. Obviously, this takes a little longer than adding them to loot tables and no final decision has been made on how to integrate these items, but we are looking at options.

We have also taken these items, and others you've mentioned in this thread, and added them to the lottery system and we will be including them more frequently over the next few days (Also one of the quickest options available to us).

Again, these are first steps, but they will not be the last. We can't say we'll implement every suggestion or will always do things exactly as you ask, but we are listening.


Edit: I posted again below, but wanted to make sure this was in the post I feel will most likely get the attention. Store morale and power pots are also being added to lockboxes with Update 5.2.

Thought this thread might be the best place to ask as it's the source of the conversation.

Is there any chance to get a similar post this for U6 to answer a couple questions?

- Any update on the store armor armour and/or crafting?
- Any overall guidance on what may or may not have changed with the lockboxes? The notes mention a change to the tomes that drop and removal of restricted items. Any other changes between 5.2->6.0 and what may or may not be a bug (dyes)?
- What (if any) changes were made for stat tome drops in instances? (increase/decrease rate, wider variety of tomes at any level/specific level ranges etc.)
- Any details that can be provided about relic removal scroll drops? (mainly is this a L50+ thing, level cap drop, etc.)

While I can't speak for others, I personally have been quite pleased with over the past couple of months/updates, but was hoping to see if a few questions could be answered.

Are stat tomes still dropping from lockboxes? Because the supply of stat tomes on the AH has softened tremendously and the prices have skyrocketed.

--H

Rahter than continue to bump an old thread, please use the active discussion thread about Lockboxes.