Thread: A word about the new gear offerings in the LOTRO Store

Originally Posted by ContraMundum

So let's sum up.

1)Nobody wants armor sold in the store.

2) Turbine says they are aware of this.

3) Turbine does it anyways.


I hope this phantom legion of lowbies demanding armor, have deep pockets.

Let me fix that for you

1. Some people do want armour in the store. Some people don't care. Some people don't want armour in the store and made a really big stick about it.

2. Turbine acknowledges that this wasn't a popular decision and explains why they did it and reaffirms that they will not add end game gear.

3. There is no 3.

Originally Posted by PerinStone

Let me fix that for you

1. Some people do want armour in the store. Some people don't care. Some people don't want armour in the store and made a really big stick about it.

2. Turbine acknowledges that this wasn't a popular decision and explains why they did it and reaffirms that they will not add end game gear.

3. There is no 3.

1. Turbine says they will not put gear in the store.

"What you will not find in the online store are stat-based armor or weapons; the primary content of the game is still found by playing the game."
~ Aaron Campbell

"There is no statted gear or weapons sold in the LOTRO store – all of those must be quested for through normal play of the game."
~ Kate Paiz

2. Turbine puts gear in the store anyway.

3. Turbine says that they never promised to not put gear in the store.

"Our official line is and has been that we don’t sell end-game gear. [...] We’ve been very consistent with one message since announcing our move to F2P: We don’t sell end game gear, but we may introduce starter items or packs in the future like DDO."
~ Sapience


The first line, as defined by Aaron Campbell and Kate Paiz, was that any gear with stats was off limits.

With this thread, they disavow any existence of the quotes I listed above, and they define a new line. "We will not sell end-game gear."

When the first line was so easily ignored, what guarantee that this one will stay in place? If we're being told not to believe the words of Paiz and Campbell, the Executive and Senior producers of this game, why should we trust the words of the Community Manager?

Sapiance,


I do thanks you for the line the reasons on why after the fact. The new Rohan area looks great! If you did not know what the players response would be negative then why release it on the same day you released the new Rohan update!

2. There was a bad response to the stat tomes and now turbine is now trying to play dumb too.

I rarely post too. I am a lifetime who rarely used the store except for convience items and I have played since it came out. I too play with mostly friend that have left for SWOTR and now you all have me thinking about quitting this game entirely.


3. I PVE and PVP. While ininitially turbine did say that they where not were not going to be PVPM MMO. They have said numerous times throughout the last 2-3 years that new zones would be added and the delving does not count. I am lifetime and not subject to this, but if you make players from both sides until 2-3 months ago pay to PVMP (FREEPs still have to) and do not for F2P and never add the zones you will loose more than you already do to SWTOR. Most Pay for the game expansions too.I Know of at least 50 players that where sick of your yearly it will be in the next update, but they are happy that the have at least a developer that actually comes out and makes changes to character types after 2 years of none.. They are playing SWOTR and they come back on and read or play to to see if any changes have been made. The rohan area looks awesome, and so does the book update per/month, but no mentions of a new PVP zone at all. Let see East Rohan Fall 2012 and West Rohan 2013.


I have 2 demands that you should be able to meet. I will quit this game if you do not. I will tell every player that I see that Turbine just still lying.

Answer the question. Will you listen to the players and thier concerns about buyiing stated gear and them thinking that it is form of cheating? IF you do not eventually you be selling raid gear.

2 I want a date of when the new PVP/PVMP zone will be out and not the usual political answer. This cannot just be an add on to the moors. Your making players pay for a area that has never been changed. For PVE players this would be like paying 10 dollars per month for a North Downs area that has been changed or fully expanded in the last 3 years and being told the next year you have the bree area. lol.

I have creep 8 ,6 1. Freep is Mikewulf..
75 capt Arkenstone
Thanks for your time.

Originally Posted by Sapience

Hi everyone,

We are very aware of the controversy surrounding the introduction of the new starter armor kits. We also understand why many of you are complaining. We’d like to take a moment to explain our rationale and provide some insight into how we have been approaching certain aspects of the game.

Greetings, Sapience and the rest of the LOTRO crew

I'm Bryandt, the guy who penned this article on CSTM.

If I may, I'd like to go over what was written here in an open dialogue.

Originally Posted by Sapience

Why do we do what we do?
We love LOTRO and we love The Lord of the Rings. We here at Turbine and throughout WB revere the setting and strive every day to bring the amazing lands of Middle-earth to life for the largest possible audience. LOTRO enjoys tremendous support throughout Turbine and Warner Bros. and we are constantly working together to grow the game.

This drive for ongoing commercial success generally works in everyone’s favor. The launch of LOTRO’s F2P version, for instance, multiplied monthly audiences and provided an increase in revenues which we will re-invest in the game. We’ve been ramping up for some time now and you’ll start to see more evidence of that re-investment this year in the form of major new content and game systems.

In addition to new development, one of the benefits of our recent success with LOTRO is an increased investment in marketing and advertising. It’s not easy for current players to see, but the fact is that we get thousands of new players in LOTRO every single day. It’s that flow of new players that’s caused a difference in viewpoints between some of us at Turbine and some of you who play the game.

Not much to say here, except to note that I think a lot of players lose sight of the fact that many of the staff and developers for this game also play the game. I do think we should give them a little more credit for having more insight into their own game than what they get.

Originally Posted by Sapience

Why Starter Armor?
We monitor and report internally on many aspects of the game as we strive to tune the experience. Something that’s emerged over time is an increasing gap between low level and high level players. It’s an issue that many MMOs face as they reach maturity: With many players at or near cap, what happens to the game experience for those at lower levels?

Those of you who have been with the game since the beginning know that we have used a number of methods to adjust the game in an effort to help new players join the main community at the cap more quickly including XP adjustments, content changes, and itemization updates.

As part of our ongoing commitment to LOTRO we plan to continue to release meaningful expansions that add to the world on a regular basis. That commitment means that we are leaving some new players farther and farther behind the veteran community.

One of the things the F2P model brings to the table is the concept of player choice and multiple paths to a satisfying play experience. The model offers us the ability to address the specific needs of a tightly targeted player group, instead of making sweeping changes to the game systems, or broader content, that would impact all players.

We looked at progression and saw an analog to something we had witnessed before – in DDO. In that case we introduced low-level, but meaningful items into the game and saw that players who took that option progressed farther and stayed with the game longer. Based on this information and the trends from in-game, it seemed like the right time to try something similar for LOTRO.

In considering how to implement this decision, a simple choice needed to be made: Should we offer a piece of armor that was good for a set level range with the tradeoff that it may be a significant boost at the bottom of that level range or should we design a piece that was underpowered at the top of its range? To be safe, we erred on the side of being too generous in value, thinking that few could fault us for doing so.

Clearly, we got that wrong.

It's not so much that you got it wrong, per se, as it is that the disparity between crafted armours and the store armours are fairly glaring. Like having a might stat on light robes. That's a holdover from an older stat system and, perhaps, merits some slight revision.

Originally Posted by Sapience

Stop me if it hurts… How about now?
To say that we were unprepared for the feedback we got would be inaccurate. We certainly expected the introduction of a new type of item to the store to drive discussion – some of it passionate. That said, the magnitude and tenor of the conversation was unexpected.

So, in no particular order, let’s address some of the things that have been said over the past few days:

You have a passionate playerbase. Myself included. That's not necessarily a bad thing.

• Originally Posted by Sapience

  Turbine said that they would never sell gear in the store.

Originally Posted by Sapience

If we did, we apologize. We give a lot of interviews and talk to lots of people at tradeshows. Our official line is and has been that we don’t sell end-game gear. Could somebody have shaved that line in discussions with the press or had their quote summarized into a statement they didn’t intend? Absolutely. We’re not perfect. We’ve been very consistent with one message since announcing our move to F2P: We don’t sell end game gear, but we may introduce starter items or packs in the future like DDO. We’ve tried to be as open and straightforward as we can on this and other points.

It's been demonstrated a few times in this thread and in other threads that, indeed that was said. What's more, it's what the playerbase believed. If that's not what you intended to say, perhaps a correction was in order to keep your players from false expectations.

Originally Posted by Sapience

Patience said convenience, not advantage.

Originally Posted by Sapience

Very true. It’s one of our guiding principles. Some people have time, others have money and when players are willing to trade money for time we usually consider that a convenience. Our goal is to allow players to customize their play experience to deliver as much fun per hour of play as they want without impacting the play of others.

Fair enough.

Originally Posted by Sapience

What’s not a convenience?

Originally Posted by Sapience

Anything that’s compulsory to be competitive in ranked play or achieves something by degrading another player’s experience. We have not and will not make that part of our F2P offering.

That's fairly broad. Still, ranked play... I'm assuming that means the Moors? If so, then why are there skills available to Creeps at Rank 0 in the Store? Wouldn't it have been better to offer those skills at the rank they would have been available through gameplay?

Skirmishes are also a form of ranked play, given that we have leaderboards and tracked statistics for them. So how does this statement bear on that?

Originally Posted by Sapience

WB has taken over Turbine and turned them into corporate [INSERT EXPLETIVE HERE]

Originally Posted by Sapience

WB did indeed buy Turbine, but they have largely left the game studio alone. We now have more resources to put into LOTRO and a much nicer office, but otherwise much is as it was. Specifically, there is no-one outside of the walls of Turbine HQ who had any say in the release of these items or any aspect of our MTX catalog. This was our call and ours alone, so point the blame cannons right over here please.

Interesting. Thank you for your candor.

Originally Posted by Sapience

The items can be sold for Gold!

Originally Posted by Sapience

True. They can. As mentioned above, we were worried about these armors not having a high enough perceived value so we added the ability to vendor them to get some of the value back at the end of their useful life. As some commented at the beginning, gear changes and you level beyond it. We assigned a value to these items specifically because we recognized this issue. Furthermore, we actively tracked auction house prices in game to help set these values.

Those who are playing the game for gold will always want more gold. And the Auction House is probably not the best indicator of how to set Store item values, as Auction House sales tend to be fairly inflated. Often inflated well beyond a new player's means to obtain those items with in-game currency.

Originally Posted by Sapience

Won’t the gold unbalance the economy?

Originally Posted by Sapience

Our data makes it pretty clear that the vast majority of veteran players have as much gold as they need already. For lower level players, the value should be clear in relation to the armor kit, as stated above. If we start seeing lots of kits going to high level players who do nefarious things with their purchased gold, we will consider the implications and adjust accordingly.

The economy is already unbalanced. Perhaps it's a system that merits some looking into?

Originally Posted by Sapience

It’s a slippery slope. Next thing you know end game armor & weapons will be for sale in the store!

Originally Posted by Sapience

We’ve gone through a lot of changes in the past year but one thing we can still say is we’re all passionate about LOTRO, too. We don’t want to wreck it either. We want everybody to have as much fun as possible, but we don’t want to do it by breaking the game. Anybody who’s participated in an end of beta event with us knows how fun an unbalanced game can be – but it can’t last. We’re all travelling to Mt. Doom with you and nobody wants the trip cut short, so please trust us on this. To make it perfectly clear:
We will not sell end-game gear.

Now, we have released these starter items and some low-level players have purchased and continue to purchase them. We will monitor progression through the low levels over the coming weeks and will see if these items are having the desired effect. In the meantime we certainly heard the concerns about the power-level of the items and their silver value and are already reviewing how to adjust going forward. The items may stay or they may go. They may also be changed to better serve the needs of the game. We’ll know more in a few weeks.

I'm very happy to hear that you're still concerned with keeping the game balanced. I would like to caution that you've made a definitive statement there. The expectation is now that there will never be end-game weapons, jewelry or armour.

Personally, at this point I'd really like to see a revision of the stats on crafted armours at those levels. They need them badly.

Originally Posted by Sapience

That brings us to our final point: communication.

We’ll take this as a sign that we need to do a better job in clear and open communication. In the future we will take more time to explain why - not just what we’re doing.

Thanks to everyone who participated in this discussion. As always we appreciate your passion and will continue to listen to your feedback.

Thank you. I look forward to a greater dialogue between us, your players, and you, Turbine.

Originally Posted by StavroMuellerBeta

1. Turbine says they will not put gear in the store.

"What you will not find in the online store are stat-based armor or weapons; the primary content of the game is still found by playing the game."
~ Aaron Campbell

"There is no statted gear or weapons sold in the LOTRO store – all of those must be quested for through normal play of the game."
~ Kate Paiz

2. Turbine puts gear in the store anyway.

3. Turbine says that they never promised to not put gear in the store.

"Our official line is and has been that we don’t sell end-game gear. [...] We’ve been very consistent with one message since announcing our move to F2P: We don’t sell end game gear, but we may introduce starter items or packs in the future like DDO."
~ Sapience


The first line, as defined by Aaron Campbell and Kate Paiz, was that any gear with stats was off limits.

With this thread, they disavow any existence of the quotes I listed above, and they define a new line. "We will not sell end-game gear."

When the first line was so easily ignored, what guarantee that this one will stay in place? If we're being told not to believe the words of Paiz and Campbell, the Executive and Senior producers of this game, why should we trust the words of the Community Manager?

Thanks for fishing these quotes from the multitude of interviews given, it reinforces your points perfectly. I suspect we will get the following post from the devs in about 12 months time:

"Turbine said that they would never sell end-game raid gear in the store.

If we did, we apologize. We give a lot of interviews and talk to lots of people at tradeshows. Our official line is and has been that we don’t sell end-game raid gear except for (insert clever work around caveat here). Could somebody have shaved that line in discussions with the press or had their quote summarized into a statement they didn’t intend? Absolutely. We’re not perfect."

I can't believe Turbine is still saying there's no advantage in the store.

Originally Posted by PerinStone

Do you have something to base this answer on other than your dislike of Turbine?

Dislike? Don't confuse Dislike with Distrust.

Read these feedback. Again and again a single word came up from multiple people, even though have usually support Turbine : TRUST.

This is a feedback on Sapience response to the store. Discuss the issues. Don't discuss the posters.

Originally Posted by StavroMuellerBeta

I won't deny the shortage of crafted items on the AH, but Turbine didn't exactly help this situation with their choice to remove most of the recipes from Expert vendor NPCs.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but it seems to me that Turbine created the problem just so they would have an excuse to fix it with the store armor.


"What you will not find in the online store are stat-based armor or weapons; the primary content of the game is still found by playing the game."
~ Aaron Campbell

"There is no statted gear or weapons sold in the LOTRO store – all of those must be quested for through normal play of the game."
~ Kate Paiz

"Our official line is and has been that we don’t sell end-game gear. [...] We’ve been very consistent with one message since announcing our move to F2P: We don’t sell end game gear, but we may introduce starter items or packs in the future like DDO."
~ Sapience

One of these things is not like the others...

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to StavroMuellerBeta again.

Also opens the question of whether there really is a difference between selling statted gear on one hand and in-game gear plus selling stats without gear (tome) on the other hand?

Originally Posted by Darmokk

Also opens the question of whether there really is a difference between selling statted gear on one hand and in-game gear plus selling stats without gear (tome) on the other hand?

Stat tomes give more advantage than stat gear.

I am writing this for those that are to tired to continue; however this is from my perspective obviously others opinions will differ and mileage may vary. That being said, Giant wall of text.

Originally Posted by Sapience

Hi everyone,

We are very aware of the controversy surrounding the introduction of the new starter armor kits. We also understand why many of you are complaining. We’d like to take a moment to explain our rationale and provide some insight into how we have been approaching certain aspects of the game. .

We already knew that Turbine was aware that there would be backlash from this it fact you expected just this, perhaps not to the extent that it has happened but it was expected none the less; from a public speech of one Fernando Paiz, who happens to be the DDO exec. That being said Turbine has responded with a largely fluff piece about listening to it’s customers and flowery platitudes of we don’t recall ever saying that; but the response is only we are doing it anyway.

Originally Posted by Sapience

Why do we do what we do?
We love LOTRO and we love The Lord of the Rings. We here at Turbine and throughout WB revere the setting and strive every day to bring the amazing lands of Middle-earth to life for the largest possible audience. LOTRO enjoys tremendous support throughout Turbine and Warner Bros. and we are constantly working together to grow the game.

This drive for ongoing commercial success generally works in everyone’s favor. The launch of Lotto’s F2P version, for instance, multiplied monthly audiences and provided an increase in revenues which we will re-invest in the game. We’ve been ramping up for some time now and you’ll start to see more evidence of that re-investment this year in the form of major new content and game systems.

In addition to new development, one of the benefits of our recent success with LOTRO is an increased investment in marketing and advertising. It’s not easy for current players to see, but the fact is that we get thousands of new players in LOTRO every single day. It’s that flow of new players that’s caused a difference in viewpoints between some of us at Turbine and some of you who play the game.

Many if not all of your passionate players also love LOTRO and want to see the game thrive and grow. However for that to continue to happen both new and old players have to be able to trust Turbine to make decisions that are best for the game not just the bottom line. As of right now, if trust was your bank account, you are currently overdrawn to the point that your overdraft won’t even cover the checks your writing.

Originally Posted by Sapience

Why Starter Armor?
We monitor and report internally on many aspects of the game as we strive to tune the experience. Something that’s emerged over time is an increasing gap between low level and high level players. It’s an issue that many MMOs face as they reach maturity: With many players at or near cap, what happens to the game experience for those at lower levels?

Those of you who have been with the game since the beginning know that we have used a number of methods to adjust the game in an effort to help new players join the main community at the cap more quickly including XP adjustments, content changes, and itemization updates.

As part of our ongoing commitment to LOTRO we plan to continue to release meaningful expansions that add to the world on a regular basis. That commitment means that we are leaving some new players farther and farther behind the veteran community.

One of the things the F2P model brings to the table is the concept of player choice and multiple paths to a satisfying play experience. The model offers us the ability to address the specific needs of a tightly targeted player group, instead of making sweeping changes to the game systems, or broader content, that would impact all players.

We looked at progression and saw an analog to something we had witnessed before – in DDO. In that case we introduced low-level, but meaningful items into the game and saw that players who took that option progressed farther and stayed with the game longer. Based on this information and the trends from in-game, it seemed like the right time to try something similar for LOTRO.

In considering how to implement this decision, a simple choice needed to be made: Should we offer a piece of armor that was good for a set level range with the tradeoff that it may be a significant boost at the bottom of that level range or should we design a piece that was underpowered at the top of its range? To be safe, we erred on the side of being too generous in value, thinking that few could fault us for doing so.

Clearly, we got that wrong.

Turbine I think we are well aware that those that invest more are more likely to stick with a game. However that does not always nor should it always equate to a monetary investment. What I personally think needs to happen it looking at adding to social and grouping options in the game because it is those connections that keep player around, (instance group finder is a good start but needs to function much faster and feel less cumbersome. (also don’t penalize people for not using it)) not how much money they have blown. Also I would look into some sort of lower level 3 mans or a button that you can press to auto group request anyone in the same zone one the same quest as you. Furthermore by your own statements there are apparently thousands of new players, if so should there not be a revitalized lower level crafting boom? Perhaps not if they feel compelled to get to end game, but for your average casual player I would think they are crafting something along the way.

Originally Posted by Sapience

Stop me if it hurts… How about now?
To say that we were unprepared for the feedback we got would be inaccurate. We certainly expected the introduction of a new type of item to the store to drive discussion – some of it passionate. That said, the magnitude and tenor of the conversation was unexpected.

• Turbine said that they would never sell gear in the store.

If we did, we apologize. We give a lot of interviews and talk to lots of people at tradeshows. Our official line is and has been that we don’t sell end-game gear. Could somebody have shaved that line in discussions with the press or had their quote summarized into a statement they didn’t intend? Absolutely. We’re not perfect. We’ve been very consistent with one message since announcing our move to F2P: We don’t sell end game gear, but we may introduce starter items or packs in the future like DDO. We’ve tried to be as open and straightforward as we can on this and other points.

I’m sorry Turbine was ill-prepared for the reaction that they got when they decided to deliberately break a promise that they made to the community as a whole on multiple occasions. I hate to break the news to you, but you as a company: Turbine said it; and what is more, you meant it when you said it. otherwise it would have been corrected on the spot, not a year and a half down the road. There is absolutely no way around the fact that Turbine as a company said the statement: “ There will be no stated armor in the LOTRO store.” Then stood behind those words for the past year until they decided they could make more money if they did not.

As I stated I’m truly sorry for the you ill-preparedness of your company to deal with the reaction of the community as they rejected the very idea. However I am not sorry for the reaction in itself and feel it must not yet be enough. After all your stance has not changed, you are still selling these armors in your store. I know many are not happy with this, and may move on, I am most likely among them, but it is not without regret; for many of us do care about LOTRO.

Originally Posted by Sapience

• Patience said convenience, not advantage.

Very true. It’s one of our guiding principles. Some people have time, others have money and when players are willing to trade money for time we usually consider that a convenience. Our goal is to allow players to customize their play experience to deliver as much fun per hour of play as they want without impacting the play of others.

As Patience is no longer working with Turbine; (my assumption is because she refused to be a part of this type of behavior) her statement is the only one that you as a company should be recanting in any way. That being said you are standing by this one at this time. I’m glad to see at least this statement is currently sticking and not being redacted: Now if only it were being followed.

Right now I can point out many things that are clear advantages in the store bought top tier relics and stat tomes being the worst offenders. I’m willing to over look the stat tomes up to tier 6, because the can be earned in game. However the grind needs to be evened out a bit (suggestion, add them to skirm vendors for the small price of 10k marks per tier per stat), sooner rather than later. Potions and relics either make them available in game or they need to be removed.

Originally Posted by Sapience

• What’s not a convenience?

Anything that’s compulsory to be competitive in ranked play or achieves something by degrading another player’s experience. We have not and will not make that part of our F2P offering.

This statement is incredibly vague, all it says is you will not sell exact replicas of stated armor whether they be raid or pvp armor. It does not state you cant sell like armors or armor with better stats so on and so forth.

Originally Posted by Sapience

• The items can be sold for Gold!

True. They can. As mentioned above, we were worried about these armors not having a high enough perceived value so we added the ability to vendor them to get some of the value back at the end of their useful life. As some commented at the beginning, gear changes and you level beyond it. We assigned a value to these items specifically because we recognized this issue. Furthermore, we actively tracked auction house prices in game to help set these values.

• Won’t the gold unbalance the economy?

Our data makes it pretty clear that the vast majority of veteran players have as much gold as they need already. For lower level players, the value should be clear in relation to the armor kit, as stated above. If we start seeing lots of kits going to high level players who do nefarious things with their purchased gold, we will consider the implications and adjust accordingly.

The worry here is not about individual players buying and selling the items to gain in game gold but rather a hacker getting a hold of account with a credit card attached to it and doing this on someone else’s dime. It’s a very valid question, what are you as a company going to do to protect you customers in this situation?

Originally Posted by Sapience

• It’s a slippery slope. Next thing you know end game armor & weapons will be for sale in the store!

We’ve gone through a lot of changes in the past year but one thing we can still say is we’re all passionate about LOTRO, too. We don’t want to wreck it either. We want everybody to have as much fun as possible, but we don’t want to do it by breaking the game. Anybody who’s participated in an end of beta event with us knows how fun an unbalanced game can be – but it can’t last. We’re all traveling to Mt. Doom with you and nobody wants the trip cut short, so please trust us on this. To make it perfectly clear:
We will not sell end-game gear.

Now, we have released these starter items and some low-level players have purchased and continue to purchase them. We will monitor progression through the low levels over the coming weeks and will see if these items are having the desired effect. In the meantime we certainly heard the concerns about the power-level of the items and their silver value and are already reviewing how to adjust going forward. The items may stay or they may go. They may also be changed to better serve the needs of the game. We’ll know more in a few weeks.

We have heard something like this before, it was slightly different though; I believe it went something like this; “There will be no stated armor in the LOTRO store. ~ Turbine” How can you as a company expect any of your customers to take you at your word when your word is obliviously not worth the internet space its written on. Turbine has proved this time and time again and I for one am not buying it anymore. Call me disgruntled, disenfranchised, a whiner, whatever you will, but I see what Turbine is now and where they are headed. unless.

Originally Posted by Sapience

That brings us to our final point: communication.

We’ll take this as a sign that we need to do a better job in clear and open communication. In the future we will take more time to explain why - not just what we’re doing.

Thanks to everyone who participated in this discussion. As always we appreciate your passion and will continue to listen to your feedback.

Communication is a two way street, and we only get a response when it is demanded so loudly that other web sites such as massively and casualstrolltomordor ran articles on it. That is not communication, that Turbine is called a reaction. Also I seriously doubt that turbine had plans to announce Riders of Rohan this soon, but did so to distract from this very discussion and get the focus on something else.



Orladen

I've sat watching auction on a very, very high population server
- my own crafters not yet good enough to crit and my supply of the mats needed nowhere near the amounts needed to ask someone else to craft it for me -
and asking in trade to buy armor/weapons for way too long.

I still think it's a brilliant idea to have this stuff in store.

Now...if only there was some tier3 scholar mats available as well, and seals...and medallions...and WSOEK and SOEK.

NB : This is a VERY LONG, detailed post, aimed at Turbine. Please bear this in mind if you generally dislike long posts. Thanks.

This post contains two "versions": a short summary, followed by a longer, more detailed version with supporting arguments.

* * * * * * * *

Summary of Contents:

• Comments on the content, nature, timing and motivation of Sapience's original post in this thread;
• Suggestions as to why this issue should be given such unusual attention by Turbine when other "hot topics" are not;
• Note of various points arising from the selling in-Store of Stats-bearing gear which Sapience's post does not address;
• Opinion that selling low-Level Stats-bearing gear in the Store will probably lead to selling higher-Level gear (with rationale);
• Discussion as to the possibly devastating effect upon Crafting, first at lower Tiers, then in general;
• Comments upon the possibly negative effects upon the in-game economy if Crafting is damaged;
• Opinion that the game's entire social structure could, in time, be adversely affected by players becoming Store-reliant;
• Conclusion that the possibility of end-game gear eventually appearing in the Store may not be the greatest possible problem;
• A few suggestions as to how to improve the early game, if required, *without* resorting to in-Store gear sales.

* * * * * * * *

(NB: For convenience, please note that where I say "gear", without specifying exactly what type, I am referring to "Armour, Weapons and/or Jewellery" in general: all of it counts as "gear", and if Turbine are willing to sell one type of gear - Armour - in the Store, I cannot see why they would not (if they so chose) logically extend this to include *all* types of gear.)

I've been too busy to get online much recently (having three young children - and spending what free time I do get playing the game more than reading the Forums - will do that, occasionally!), but I feel that the issue of Store-exclusive Armour is important enough to warrant adding my voice to this thread, since the tone and content (and, indeed, the very existence) of Sapience's initial post all suggests to me that the Powers That Be may actually be taking a interest this time.

First of all, I can't resist commenting upon Turbine's timing of the move to sell in-Store Stats-bearing gear. There can be no doubt in my mind (call me paranoid, but I don't think the Forum response backs that up!), but I'm pretty sure that Turbine knew that this move, with all its possible negative future consequences, would be highly unpopular. Being no doubt pretty good at their job, I expect the PR Department also knew that Sapience's reply, no matter *how* conciliatory and/or apologetic, would not, alone, calm the waters of the ensuing storm. But here's something that will sweep the whole untidy mess under the carpet, certainly on these Forums, and probably also on those external websites which have been so critical of the "Armour in the Store" move: the sudden and unexpected announcement of the Riders of Rohan Expansion, complete with that Holy Grail of all player wish-lists (well, not mine, but I'm annoying): MOUNTED COMBAT!!!. Now, if *THAT* doesn't get pretty much everyone chattering excitedly on the Forums and forgetting entirely about the Stats-bearing gear in the Store problem, I don't know what will, short of a nuclear holocaust, perhaps.

I've seen a few well-timed pieces of PR in my time, but this one beats (almost) all of them. Whatever else Turbine may get wrong, it isn't the timing of their PR announcements, that's for sure. But for what it's worth, and no matter how thrilling the idea of attacking Wargs on horseback (us, not them!) may be, please, let's not forget all about the issue at hand. It's actually, in my opinion at least, rather more fundamental a concept, and more important to the game's integrity, sustainability and overall future, than whether or not we fight on foot or on a horse.

So, to leave horse-charging our enemies to one side for a minute, and to discuss the whole "Armour in the Store" concept.

* * * * * * * *

Short "Summary" Version of Post (Supporting debate, detailed arguments and examples omitted)

1. As far as Sapience's original post in this thread goes: although any "official" response is obviously better than none, I cannot say that, when analysed closely, it is particuarly reassuring. There is only one apparently concrete statement, i.e. the assertion that "no end-game gear will ever be sold in the Store", but even *that* is open to interpretation, since what counts as "end-game" gear can be widely interpreted and will, obviously, change as new Raids and better rewards are added to the game, existing ones are altered, the Level Cap is raised, and so on. The rest is *all* open to interpretation and is therefore of no value in terms of reassuring the player-base about Turbine's plans regarding in-Store Stats-bearing gear. Actions speak louder than words, and the Stats-bearing gear is still in the Store, being sold to players: for me, this speaks volumes more than a carefully worded CSR post which, if one examines it closely, actually says virtually nothing one can get hold of and refer back to at a later point.

2. I do not believe that end-game gear is inherently any more important than low-Level gear. I also do not believe that engaging in combat in order to win better gear is the only point of playing LotRO: there are many other interesting aspects to the game, and focusing solely on acquiring gear, especially when introducing new players to the game, seems to be placing too little emphasis upon all the many other interesting facets the game comprises, which risks giving new players a rather one-sided vew of what the game has to offer - especially since being able to buy in-Store gear far *superior* to anything a starter player can Craft or win in-game will automatically decrease interest in those methods of obtaining gear from a player's first day onwards. The principle of earning or Crafting gear, of whatever Level, via gameplay underlies the whole fabric of an MMO, and arguing that low-Level gear doesn't matter simply doesn't hold water: the content and rewards of each Level, whether Quest rewards or Crafted items, should be satisfying to achieve, and there is nothing sacred, in my view, about end-game gear which means that, for no reason anyone has clearly defined to me, all will be well so long as end-game gear doesn't appear in the Store.

3. The damage to low-Level Crafting caused by selling items in-Store which do not just compete with it, but which are far superior to anything it can produce, cannot be overestimated. It is my opinion that, once a full range of low-Level gear appears in the Store (and nothing I have read so far convinces me that this will not occur), low-Level Crafting will simply become an irrelevance. And this will extend upwards, in due process of time, to mid- and high-Level Crafting, until the point where *all* Crafting becomes nothing but a second-rate choice for those who can't afford in-Store Stats-bearing gear. Great for those who dislike Crafting and want quick-fix powerful gear, but hardly in the long-term interests of maintaining LotRO as a multi-faceted, interesting environment, with something for everyone, and a few more things to do with one's time than simply killing stuff endlessly...?

4. The in-game economy relies heavily upon Crafting. If Crafting is damaged or, eventually, reduced to a kind of "niche" activity which only a few determined players continue to pursue, the in-game economy will take a huge hit. For those players who enjoy buying, selling and trading, this will represent a significant loss of enjoyment.

5. By removing one of the major incentives to begin socialising early on in the game, the presence of Stats-bearing gear in the Store at low Levels is, if anything, potentially *more* damaging to the game as a whole, in my view, than the possible "slippery slope" effect leading to end-game gear appearing in the Store. Although there is a significant proportion of players at end-game, many of whom would no doubt, and with good reason, object to end-game gear being sold to players who had not "earned" it via combat, there are also a lot of players who are *not* at end-game, nor anywhere near it, and it takes more than an end-game group of players to keep a game alive. Players just starting out need to be given every incentive to get involved in the social side of the game, not to be given reasons to behave like "islands", self-sufficient thanks to the Store and with no need to engage with other players: the sooner new players start interacting with the rest of the player-base, the healthier the game's social side will be. End-game players already have friends, Kinships and social circles: new players do not. Taking away low-Level gear Crafting and trading, and encouraging new players to get into the Store and simply stay there, will, in my view, impoverish the entire social side of the game, something upon which the whole game is based. And, in my view, this is more fundamental than end-game gear being potentially sold in the Store, important and damaging though that possibility may be.

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Complete Version of Post with all Supporting Debate, Detailed Arguments and Examples

Whilst it is obviously far better to have an "official" response to our concerns than none, I must say that I believe the motivation behind this response - unusually extensive and self-critical as it is - is questionable, considering how often we players have "raged" on these Forums about similarly fundamental in-game changes and received no response at all (remember the Lootbox thread(s)...?!). I would have been far more reassured - as others have said - if the player-base had been consulted, perhaps via a login survey, *before* making such a fundamental in-game change, or even if, once the player-base's negative reaction became apparent, action were to have been taken (specifically, the complete removal of Stats-bearing gear from the Store, or at least the granting to Crafters of in-game [note: *NOT* exclusively in-Store] Recipes which would allow us to produce identical gear in-game) than I am by any number of apparently apologetic/reassuring (although very carefully worded) posts from CSRs. Still, something is better than nothing, no matter the reason for its occurrence, and I appreciate the attempt at communication (albeit "after the fact"), but I have to say that, compared with what I see actually happening in-game, I personally do not feel very convinced that the problem of in-Store Stats-bearing gear has suddenly been ameliorated, nor that it will not be extended in the future. There is nothing in Sapience's post addressing either of these points.

Even the one apparently concrete assertion that is made, i.e. the promise that Turbine will never sell "end-game gear" in the Store, is open to interpretation: for example, what constitutes "end-game gear"? Does this mean solely "the gear with the highest Stats currently available from the currently most difficult Raid", or does it mean "all gear at or around the Level Cap", or something else entirely? Does it include end-game-Level Crafted items? Does it preclude the selling of items identical in Stats/usefulness to in-game gear, but simply with different names/appearances? In any case, as others have said, the Store is actually *already* selling "end-game"-related items, such as high-Tier Store-exclusive Relics, LI Legacies, Scrolls of Greater Delving and the infamous Relic Removal Scrolls (not to mention the overpowered in-Store high-Level Potions, Tier 7 Stat Tomes, various boosts designed to aid success in end-game-Level combat, etc.). In addition to the thorny problem of defining what "end-game gear" means - it may mean something to Turbine but something quite different to players - there is, of course, the point that, as new Raids are added to the game and/or existing ones "revamped", commonly with new/upgraded gear being added alongside, and as the Level Cap increases, the definition of what "end-game" constitutes will always be fluid. So, what *is* "end-game gear"? Even though the selling of end-game gear in the Store is not my personal main concern (as I will describe more fully), it is certainly a generally undesirable thing for Turbine to do, and the fact that what appears to be the only concrete statement made is actually, on examination, rather more "open to interpretaton" means that I, for one, am not particularly reassured by anything stated in this thread's original post.

The Internet is not some magical place where life's normal maxims do not apply, and something I've always found true is that "actions speak louder than words": I see plenty of words (many of which are open to broad interpretation) in Sapience's post, but nothing in the way of actual in-game actions intended to remedy a situation which I consider to have possibly very serious consequences affecting the basic foundations of the game, going above and beyond whether or not end-game gear will or will not appear in the Store at some point. I see this issue being brought to the fore and addressed with a concrete statement, but I do not see any discussion of any of the other consequences which I, for one, feel may arise from the sale of Stats-bearing gear (of any Level) in the Store: no mention of how it will affect Crafting, the in-game economy or the way in which new players will (or will not) be encouraged to become solitary, Store-dependent entities, finding less and less need to interact with other players in what is, after all, meant to be a social game, not a solo RPG. There was also no mention as to where Turbine found any reference to new players requiring gear with superior Stats (it's not within my experience to hear anyone ask for this), and even if they could point to their source for this "demand", there is no explanation as to why the superior starter Armour was implemented as being *Store-exclusive*; no choice to gain it from in-game NPC Vendors, Crafters, Quest rewards, Deeds, or any other gameplay-related route. Store or nothing, and no explanation as to why this decision was made. If "player choice" were the reason, where is the choice? It's either pay up or go without.

It is a shame (and worth noting) that - as far as I can see - our voices, on many issues which caused serious upset, weren't heard until *external* websites such as Casual Stroll to Mordor/Massively, over which Turbine has no control, finally sat up and noticed what the insidious rise of the LotRO Store, together with various in-game changes since F2P came in, have been doing to the game: I have contributed many a long post to "protest threads" on issues which remained contained on these Forums, without seeing any response at all from a CSR, let alone such a lengthy and informative one. The evidently concerned nature of Sapience's initial post in this thread speaks (to me, at least) of Turbine's management actually - and unusually - caring what their player-base thinks or wants on this particular issue. Why this should be, when similar previous "protest" threads have generated no recognisable response from Turbine, I do not know: I'm guessing an upsurge in cancelled subscriptions (money talks, as we all know), but of course I may be being overly cynical. Still, I will "make hay while the sun shines", and spend time replying in this thread, now that - perhaps - my opinions may be heard by those in a position to actually make decisions as to the game's current state and future direction.

As many will know, I normally write at considerable length, and this is an especially detailed post, since I believe there is some chance, if a small one, that Turbine themselves may become aware of what I say, and I don't believe in making unsupported statements of opinion or half-completed arguments: that convinces nobody. I am only here, and bothering to write at such length, because I feel so very strongly on this issue and this seems to be a unique opportunity to actually (perhaps) get my opinions heard. I only write at all because I care so much about LotRO and want to see it continue as a quality game, not a mere shadow of its former self: my six Accounts (three Lifetime, one VIP, one Premium and one F2P) and over £1,000 so far invested should attest to my commitment to the game. Yes, this is a wall of text, but hopefully my "red header" should serve as warning enough of that, and I also provided a much shorter summary of my points. Please don't flame me for writing in detail. Thanks in advance.

Anyway.

Unlike many in this thread (and the former one, which was closed), I do *NOT* take the view that selling low-Level Stats-bearing gear in the Store is OK, so long as end-game gear is never sold. I play the game with many alts at many Levels, from 7 to 66, and I enjoy the game just as much at the lower Levels as I do at the higher Levels: sometimes more, since the quality of the landscape design and content is, if you ask me, superior in the original SoA Regions and, no matter how many times I adventure through it, I never get tired of experiencing such a faithful and beautiful rendering of Tolkien's Middle-Earth. I don't think that end-game gear has some kind of special status: it just represents a lot of time devoted to Raiding. Some think that Raiding is the entire point of the game; some do not. Nobody is right or wrong, and I mean no offence to those who *do* enjoy Raiding: I'm just not in that "camp", as it were. To me, combat is combat, at no matter what Level, and no matter the rewards: some love it, sone don't, and - for me, at least - it's good fun, but *certainly* not the be-all and end-all of the game, nor the entire purpose in playing.

Having said this, I do enjoy combat, when I'm in the mood: but I find it as rewarding to earn a Level 15 piece of gear when my Character is at Level 15 as it is rewarding to earn a piece of Level 60 gear at Level 60. I don't consider the game's early Quest rewards or Crafted items to be dull, pointless or tedious, no matter that I have 22 alts. And, as I say, I enjoy many of the game's features as much as I enjoy a good fight: Crafting, trading, RPing, exploring, discovering, socialising, House decorating, Fishing, Festivals, and so on, and so forth. And I can see there being more consequences arising from the sale of (at present) low-Level Stats-bearing gear in the Store than simply the possibility of a "slippery slope" towards the in-Store sale of end-game gear. I don't even feel that, when one looks at the fundamental changes which this may cause within the game, the sale of end-game gear, while I can obviously see why it is undesirable, should be viewed as the worst possible outcome. Yes, it would make many Raiders feel as if they had wasted a lot of time and energy repeatedly completing Raids in order to earn the "best" in-game gear, and I can quite understand this viewpoint, and yes, it would leave players nearing the Level Cap (well, those who mainly enjoy combat) with nothing much to look forward to achieving, but it seems to me as if selling in-game Stats-bearing gear, no matter its Level, which is *superior* to anything that can (at near/equal Level) be won or Crafted in-game has potentially more fundamentally damaging and further-reaching consequences than either of these two negative results.

A player only gets one chance to gain a first impression of a game, and what s/he sees during the first 20 Levels or so of LotRO will colour his/her judgement of the entire game. As I will explain, I believe that selling Stats-based gear in the Store will have several very poor consequences which may well drive away rather than attract new players, and impoverish the early in-game experience rather than enriching it, turning it into a rather dismal, solitary experience with nothing much worth doing or achieving in-game, and no companion really worth interacting with except the Store, which seems to me even more likely to damage the general perception of the game, long-term, than causing upset to existing players (who have more time/money invested, and more reason to stay) by selling end-game gear (or close approximations thereof) in the Store, unacceptable though that also would be, of course, for anyone who has spent time "earning" those rewards via in-game routes and also for the general impetus and motivation players will have to bother to try to achieve the "best" rewards in the game.

For many players, the game is, as I say, about more than just end-game gear earned via combat, or indeed about combat at all. While combat (and its rewards) obviously has a part to play in the in-game experience of all of us, it is more important to some than to others, and it is certainly not, for many, the *sole* reason for playing the game. Although much has been changed since F2P, and Crafting, in particular, has, in my opinion, become attenuated and lost a lot of its significance, there are still plenty of other things to do - even at Level 75 - than just Raiding, which is what most people think of when they see the phrase "end-game content". I have several Accounts, amongst them an F2P Account, and, compared with what I was used to when starting new Characters before F2P, I was amazed by how many Store-related "freebies" a starter Character is given, all the way up until Level 20. In fact, unless a new player joins a Kinship (or reads the Lorebook intensively), the number and variety of freebies showered upon them - from Morale and Power Potions, to XP Boosts, to Ingredient Packs, and everything else - could well give them the idea that they should resort to the Store for just about *everything*. In effect, they become "conditioned" to turn to the Store for most, if not all, of their needs.

This, obviously, discourages new players from interacting with other players (do they even realise, for example, that they can Craft, trade or buy in-game alternatives for most of the items in the Store?), and if the Store is now going to offer them Stats-bearing gear *as well as* all the many other items which directly compete with in-game alternatives, the result will be that low-Level Crafting, as well as low-Level social interaction, will be more or less destroyed. And no, this is not a hysterical response: please think about it. The Stats-bearing gear in the Store is *significantly* superior to *ANYTHING* that can be earned in-game, by any method, during the game's early Levels. Why would a new player Craft their own gear when it will be inferior to what they can buy? And why would more experienced Crafters (who have already seen their market, and the in-game economy in general, significantly damaged by Store competition, in every field from Potions to Combat Foods to Crafting Scrolls to Crafting Tools, and much more) bother to try to sell Crafted gear which can in no way compete with the Store-bought offerings?

Crafting has, as I say, become more and more sidelined since F2P was introduced; this may well be the final nail in its coffin. Not immediately, of course: I am looking at the long-term. If low-Level (Levels ~7-25) Crafting is rendered obsolete (and I expect to see more than just the current Stats-bearing Armour appearing in-Store, since Sapience's reply in no way precluded this: I predict more Armour pieces, eventually making up full sets, together with "starter-Level" Weapons, too, before too long, and no doubt Jewellery will also start to creep in: it's all "gear", right?), and if new players don't take up Crafting initially because there is no point, what about mid- and high-Level Crafting? Not only will new players be unlikely to want to start out as Novice Crafters when they're at Level 30 and have no use for the first two Crafting Tiers' output, but I'm willing to take a small bet that, by then, there will be mid-Level Stats-bearing gear in the Store, to save them the bother anyway.

If Store-bought low-Level gear is acceptable (and it seems, by the opinions many are expressing here, that many people think it is), so long as the "sacred cow" which is end-game gear doesn't appear in the Store, how about mid-Level Stats-bearing gear? And bear in mind: the starter player we are talking about, already conditioned to use the Store for most or all of his/her needs, *including* the provision of Armour, and never having bothered to start Crafting because there was no point during the first 25 Levels or so, is very likely, once that Armour is outgrown at around Level 25, to look to the Store again for their *next* set of Armour. Even if that Armour isn't already in the Store (and, as I say, I expect it will be), no doubt Forum posts will appear asking why that Armour isn't there - and, lo and behold, Turbine will have all the reason they need to add the said Armour to the Store, citing "player demand" and "choice" as the reason. A "player demand", incidentally, which Turbine themselves created: I have never, in my years of playing LotRO (as a very socially active player), heard *anyone* asking for *ANY* Stats-bearing gear, low-Level or not, to be available in the Store. Literally never. But now? Turbine has created that demand. Some may call this clever, and an astute marketing move: others - such as Crafters who see their market diminishing by the day, and their enjoyment of the game along with it - will probably find other terms for it.

And so, I predict, it will go on: players who buy their mid-Level gear from the Store (especially since, looking at how powerful the "low-Level" Store-bought Armour is, any further in-Store gear seems likely, to me, to be equally overpowered when compared with in-game equivalents) will continue to have no incentive to Craft their own gear or to buy it from existing Crafters, or even to earn it from Quests: perhaps a few Instance rewards may be equal or superior to Store-bought gear items in terms of their Stats, but if the pattern already established with the low-Level in-Store gear is followed (and why would it not be? Store sales are the intended outcome!), further versions of in-Store gear will also be significantly superior to anything available via normal gameplay.

Do I need to continue? Hardly. It seems quite apparent to me where this whole plan is heading: self-critical and apparently "humble" CSR posts notwithstanding, the Stats-bearing gear is still in the Store, it is apparently being bought by players, and it can only lead, in my view, to the inevitable near-death of Crafting, over a long-drawn-out and rather miserable period of time, leaving only a few determined Store-haters/Crafting-obsessives doing much in the way of Crafting gear when everything they make is going to be trumped by items available in the Store.

Now, if the in-Store gear were to be made available to Crafters, in the form of Recipes enabling them to make identical items, the picture would be entirely different. However, as (primarily) a Scholar, who used to Craft with a passion and live quite happily on the Gold thus earned, but who has seen sales of all my consumables near enough halve, and worse at low Levels, since the Store, with its uber-versions of my output, was introduced (and who has seen Turbine stick to their word when they said that the in-Store mega-Potions would *never* be made available in-game), I'm not holding my breath when it comes to Turbine making Recipes available to allow Crafters to actually compete realistically with the current (and, as I predict, future) in-Store Stats-bearing gear.

And for those players who really don't care about Crafters, Crafted items or Crafting itself, so long as end-game gear stays out of the Store, I would add that there is one further, and in my view pretty fundamental, possible negative outcome to selling Stats-bearing gear in the Store. During the early Levels of the game, it can be quite difficult for a new player to "break into" the social side of the game, and one excellent way of doing this is embodied within the need for starter players either to begin Crafting themselves, or at least to communicate with existing Crafters to obtain the improved Crafted gear/materials for self-Crafting and/or consumables they need. With the Store now providing every consumable item any player could need (and more), if the same principle is extended to gear, what need do new players have to begin interacting with the community? OK, they may wish to chat randomly in the Server channels, or they may join a Kinship and get into socialising in that way, but low-Level Crafting, with the trading and communication this involves, has always been a great incentive for players to get into the social scene on their new Server, and if this is removed, new players will find themselves - if they get their wallets out - quite able to get by without recourse to any other companion than the Store. This cannot be a good thing in an MMO, which is based upon the interaction of players with each other. And how far will it extend? Now that we have the Instance Finder (which will, once fully functional, act rather like an "Instant Kinship" for grouping purposes), if you take away another of the primary reasons why players join Kinships (the need to exchange Crafted gear with each other), do players even need Kinships? Where does it end? What will the end-game social scene look like two years from now, when a players' in-game companion from the start has been the Store, not a Kinship, and the Instance Finder, if it works well, could mean that they never need (as opposed to "want", of course, especially if they enjoy RP) to actually talk to anyone in-game at all? Rather desolate, no?

Following on from my points on Crafting - and seeing that Crafting-related items, from Recipes to raw materials to finished Crafted items, form a large percentage of items traded in-game - it is obvious that the game's economy, already damaged by Store competition, will take a very serious hit if Crafting is, as I predict will happen, adversely affected by the persistence and extension of in-Store Stats-bearing gear. All MMOs need an in-game economy, and I cannot see who will be buying either Crafted items, or the materials to make them, nor yet the Recipes, either, if Crafting itself becomes further sidelined (in time) thanks to the Store trumping anything which Crafters can produce. As I've said, at the very least, if in-Store gear is going to be provided which carries superior Stats, then Recipes to produce identical gear need to be provided (via in-game, *NOT* exclusively in-Store) methods: whether from NPC Profession Vendors (preferably, especially since the gear currently available would be produced by Crafters below Guild level), from the Crafting Guilds, or even as world drops (not ideal, but at least better than nothing).

Taking all the above points into consideration, and not forgetting that, nowadays, the buying of Quest packs is optional, and there may well be little incentive for new players to buy them at all if they can simply Skirmish/Instance their way upwards in Levels, using Skirmish-earned and/or Store-bought gear which is superior to Quest reward items, it looks to me as if the addition of Stats-bearing gear to the Store may have far more fundamental ramifications than the main opposition so far put forward, i.e. the possibility of end-game gear ending up in the Store. Add to this scenario the more-or-less disappearance of Crafting (gradually, of course) and the damage to the social scene which this whole apparently harmless little idea may end up causing, and what sort of a game are we left with? Pretty much nothing but an endless round of combat, with players repeating the same Skirmishes/Instances over and over until they reach "end-game", perhaps not even bothering to take in the beautiful world around them because buying the Quest packs, compared with simply buying *superior* in-Store gear/items which are better than Quest rewards, doesn't make financial sense - and even if they *do* need to actually travel anywhere (during the Epic Line, for example), there are now so many "Instant Travel" Maps and Swift Travel Skills being introduced that even going from one place to another need not involve much chance of actually meeting another person along the way. In short, a player-base which can choose, if it wishes, to effectively "miss out the game" and arrive, Store-geared and Skirmish-Levelled, at Level 75, or 85, or 185, without having played the game in any more than a pretty minimal way: even Virtues and Character Stats themselves are, of course, for sale in the Store, so where - if Crafted/Quest reward gear is rendered inferior - will the need to engage in non-Instance/Skirmish gameplay exist...?

For a game which has had as much care and talent lavished upon it as LotRO has (Lore researchers, graphic artists and story-writers, I'm looking at you), this is a sorry potential future, and what is more, one which can be so easily avoided. If the early game is considered lacking in some way, why not add more storylines, new Quests, better Quest rewards, improved Crafting, revamped Kinships, more flexible Housing options... any or all of those would, in my view, engage and entertain new players far more than taking the very dangerous step of adding Stats-bearing gear to the Store, with all the possible negative outcomes this could, in the course of time, set in motion - to the disadvantage, I contend, of all of us, whether or not we actually buy in-Store gear ourselves.

* * * * * * * *

I hope that someone, somewhere, who has the power to make a decision regarding this issue will read this through and seriously reconsider selling *ANY* Stats-bearing gear, of any Level, in the Store. Although it may not be obvious right now, the entire future shape of the game, in my opinion, depends upon it.

Best,

Demelza of Lórien
Friend of the Wild and Lady of Streams

Originally Posted by Demelza

.

I'm sorry but no...just No.

In three days I found one piece of crit level 22 medium armor - on Brandywine. Needless to say, I had no need for the armor after 25 because of the Barrow set readily available.

There is no reason to whine about making the game more playable for everyone involved. You WILL not gather sturdy hides and I WILL have armor for my alts.

Hi,
I am a new player - in fact this is my first ever post and probably my last.

Given the comments in some of the posts above I suspect some vitriol etc. will be coming my way for this, but having gotten through 17 pages of this (just finished Demelza's post) thought I would add my 2 penn'orth.

I am a new player, started F2P and enjoyed it enough that I took out a VIP. I also got a very good deal on the Mithril pack (was briefly on Amazon at £9.99 though that didn't last long).

So far I am loving it, learning how to play, how to group, the vast majority of the people I've met in game, the lore and riding through middle earth having an absolute blast.

That said I am a recent player (less than three months), but have started a number of alts - my main is now in Angmar, the rest are for crafting purposes so I could see how crafting works etc.

I have one of each craft, and so far have reached at least Artisan in all, with Westfold (full mastership) in farming and cooking, and am working to one alt of each class. I'm enjoying crafting and make things on request and provide low level crit gear to low level players if I've made a pile of stuff (I have a compulsion to harvest everything I go past and make something with it).

My store purchases have been (with 1 month VIP + 2000TP from mithril and various deeds etc.) RK/Warden, extra character slots for my account and riding for every alt that gets to 5.

I have no intention of ever buying the store bought armour it is grossly over priced to me (in TP's) I got RK/Warden for less than the cost of a full set - which gives me 100's of hours of new gameplay (not played them yet) rather than something of limited utility.

Stat tome's hold no interest, I mean the TP cost to get +70 why would anyone bother, nor does much of the stuff in it, i'm not here for convenience but to play (the obvious exception here is riding).

To be frank I'm very glad I tried F2P without looking at the forums, the tone, the language etc. would have put me off immediately and I'd never have started.

I am sorry that a number of people here have the issues they describe, I have no problem with these issues being stated, but the way they are stated, the repetition and slinging back and forward (its like a tennis match at times and I think new balls are needed all round) and general stuck record nature of these threads on a number of the areas (main offenders seem to be general and riders of rohan) means I am now giving up on these specific forums (yes I am voting with my feet which a number of you should probably do it might make you a little happier).

Please note I am not including posts like Demelza's in this generalisation, that is an example of a deeply felt, well written position though one I pretty much completely disagree with as our experiences differ.

Further to this and another issue which I have personally encountered I would recommend that people look at what I consider to be a deeply felt but well put issue on the farmer forum on Westfold crafting and the consequences of the reduction in crop yield for Westfold compared to the lower tiers.

I reckon that due to the level of noise generated on some areas/forums (like here!) this is not something that will get an official response or fix.

In summary, I like the game the way it is thankyou, I will buy from the store what I wish and ignore the rest. If crafting dies (as many of the regular posters in here seem to think it will) as a result of the armour in store, well, give me a couple of months to get to Westfold everything, and then drop me a line in-game with relevant mat's and silver I'll craft whatever you need.

In the mean time speak for yourself and those who think like you - I will never criticise anyone for doing that - but do not presume to speak for me or the vast majority of players unless you know we agree with you.


Argilvie

I don't understand how people can take the "no end game gear" statement and then simply be okay with that ?
Sapience all but straight out says, that not only is levels 21-74 fair game, they are probably planning to stuff that with store gear. Just like in DDO.

Please stop focusing on end game, and keep the game as a whole in mind here.
The raid gear you wear now will hit the store when the level cap goes up, and new end game gear is introduced with expansions.

Dear me...
Sapience,
You just responded with a well written PR announcement which actually conveys nothing.


Although you admit that community's reaction was overwhelming nothing at all changed.


The armour remains in store, the so called end game “convenience” items also remains there and as it seems the only thing that definitely change from time to time is company's previous line which shifts a bit further when profit is to be made.


Delmeza's well written post actually reflects my opinion as well. She dwells on crafting more than what I wished to, but more or less I agree with her.


TB must have in mind that this is a social game. That said it is my strong belief they should enhance this aspect further. It keeps people together and make game enjoyable.
My acquaintances are dwindling with each half baked expansion and broken promises. Right now from my circle of people who started 4 years ago only 5 remain in game. It's a matter of time to leave as well since I do not like being alone in there.

NB : This is actually NOT a very long post. It contains multiple quotes and replies to four posters, hence the length.

* * * * * * * *

Crazydwarf:

Originally Posted by Crazydwarf

I don't understand how people can take the "no end game gear" statement and then simply be okay with that ?

Same here. I am finding it hard to see why end-game gear *ALONE* appears to be the sole concern of so many players, and the major concern of many others. The game has 74 Levels (well, about 67 if you exclude the Introduction) below the current Level Cap. Are we meant to regard those Levels as just worthless wastes of time, to be rushed through as fast as possible in the headlong dive towards "end-game"...? The early-mid game, up to the end of the SoA Regions, contains (in my view) the richest, most interesting, most beautifully realised and most Lore-faithful content of all: even with as many alts as I have, I don't tire of seeing and experiencing it all many times, especially since small (or large!) changes are often made here and there.

A new player has even more reason to linger, since they have never seen any of the content which veterans have gone through several times, and for the life of me I cannot see why such a new player would need incentives to rush through such excellent content. I can understand that players with one or more Characters at Level Cap may wish to accelerate the process, even if I personally don't, but still, is it worth risking (in my view) possibly damaging the entire game experience for all newcomers in order to allow veterans to "jump ahead", as it were?

And I'm speaking as someone who would love to have Crafters of all Vocations at the Level Cap, but who simply doesn't have time: even so, my desire to Craft at the highest Tiers isn't a strong enough reason for me to wish to introduce concepts into the game which will very probably, in my view, end up damaging the entire fabric of the game, whether or not they prove to be a convenience to veterans who are looking to quickly level up their alts. Surely not *everything* should be sacrificed upon the altar of "convenience"?

Originally Posted by Crazydwarf

Sapience all but straight out says, that not only is levels 21-74 fair game, they are probably planning to stuff that with store gear. Just like in DDO.

Exactly - and do we really want to see LotRO turned into a DDO clone? Many posters in this thread seem to have read the part which says "We will not sell end-game gear" (despite that being far less concrete than it looks), and found this to be enough reassurance. What about every Level below 75? As I say, do these Levels now not count, except as tedious stepping-stones to the "end-game", on the grounds that veterans (who do not comprise 100% of the player-base, by any means) find them repetitive?

New players will, I would think, find the earlier Levels as interesting as I did when I first encountered them: in fact, I could not even cover all of the content because there was so much of it, and I still have parts of Evendim, the region around Archet and most of the Shire unexplored, as well as all kinds of Deeds and Quests *everywhere* unfinished, even though I am a pretty compulsive completionist who is now at Level 66. Encouraging new players to rush the early content (and, as and when *all* "starter" gear is added to the Store, motivating them to completely miss out on something as inherent to the game as Crafting) seems a pity, to say the least. There is much rich content to be enjoyed even at Level 10, and by 25, one's Quest Log is overflowing - and there is so much else to do, too. Why treat such excellent content as a "bore", to be skipped as fast as possible?

Originally Posted by Crazydwarf

Please stop focusing on end game, and keep the game as a whole in mind here.

Exactly. I very much doubt that many new players join the game thinking: "Wow, this is boring... I can't wait until I'm at the Level Cap and I can start collecting my end-game gear". The developers have done a fabulous job of making *every* Level of the game interesting and worthwhile. I would hate to see the addition of "shortcuts" such as in-Store gear causing new players to lose interest in experiencing in-game content which is superior to that of any other MMO out there.

Originally Posted by Crazydwarf

The raid gear you wear now will hit the store when the level cap goes up, and new end game gear is introduced with expansions.

This is what I meant when I said that the very definition of "end-game gear" is fluid. Turbine could even add gear to the Store which is absolutely identical to the current end-game gear, but just give it a different name (rather like there is no difference at all between a Store-bought Reputation Steed and one which is earned via gameplay, apart from the fact that the latter has the word "Prized" stuck in front of its name). What looks like a pomise may not be one - and what is certain is that what is current end-game gear can freely be re-defined as no such thing, once new Raids, gear and Expansions are added.

Selling *any* Stats-bearing gear in the Store, in my opinion, really is the thin end of the wedge; no matter how convenient it may be for veterans who are looking to level alts up quickly because the lower Levels of the game now bore them (or indeed for new players looking to level themselves up as fast as they can, for whatever reason), the potential damage it could cause seems, to me, to be too great a price to pay.

* * * * * * * *

@Luder85 / Argilvie:

Thank you for being open-minded enough to understand why I posted what I did, even though you personally do not agree with me. I very much appreciate such a constructive attitude, and actually I hope you do not leave the Forums: we have enough "back-and-forth shouters", as you say, but not enough people who are willing to debate constructively, as you are.

A belated welcome to LotRO (and to the Forums), and indeed, please don't let threads like this influence your opinion of the game as a whole. It is natural for people to express dissatisfaction on the Forums more often than they come here to praise the game, simply because if they're happy, they're too busy playing! I am a case in point: I hold no fewer than six Accounts (three Lifetime, one paid VIP, one Premium and one F2P), with a total of 22 alts, and have been playing pretty much daily for 3½ years. It is because I *do* love LotRO so much, not because I hate it, that I write as I do when something happens which I consider may threaten the game I enjoy so much and in which I have invested over £1,000 so far. My Forum posts may give a different impression, but if you met me in-game, you'd find a very contented player, enjoying all that the rich world of Middle-Earth has to offer.

If I had time, I'd also be levelling all of my Crafting alts up to Westfold: I have two at that Level, and a couple more near it, but as a busy mother-of-three children aged 11 downwards, I just don't have the time to play as much as I'd need to in order to level up *all* of my alts. Still giving it my best shot, though, because I love Crafting and - as you have seen - I get pretty upset when anything happens that seems to threaten its existence or damage it in terms of how much fun it is.

I hope you keep on enjoying the game and I thank you again for your kind comments.

* * * * * * * *

@byron7:

Thank you for your kind comment. I am more used to brickbats than bouquets, so I am grateful!

I'm sorry to have harped on so much about the Crafting side of thigs. I'm a highly committed Crafter who has sunk literally thousands of hours into pursuing that side of the game, and it seems to me that just about every Expansion and Update since F2P has whittled away a little at Crafting, gradually sidelining and degrading it, so I now may tend to become rather over-defensive when I see such apparently dangerous threats to Crafting as the in-Store "uber-Armour" being offered up as an alternative to Crafted items which simply can't compete.

At the very least, Turbine could assist embattled Crafters (competing with the Store isn't easy!) by granting us the Recipes needed to create replicas of the in-Store gear: that would go a long way towards ameliorating the problem, in my view, although I'd still remain opposed to in-Store Stats-bearing gear on principle, for all the reasons I've discussed in (too much) detail already.

I also harped on Crafting quite heavily in this particular case precisely because I have found, like you, that many players are leaving the game, and my Friends List, once so full that it was very hard deciding which name to remove when adding a new one, is now less than half of its former size - and not a few of those who have left found that the attenuation of Crafting, together with the damage to player interaction and to the in-game economy which this has inevitably caused, was a major factor in their giving up on the game. LotRO was - and still can be - about more than just combat, combat and more combat; it has great content diversity which other MMOs lack, and it is, to me, very sad to see combat usually taking centre stage at the expense of just about every other aspect of the game.

And, as you say:

Originally Posted by byron7

TB must have in mind that this is a social game. That said it is my strong belief they should enhance this aspect further. It keeps people together and make game enjoyable.
My acquaintances are dwindling with each half baked expansion and broken promises. Right now from my circle of people who started 4 years ago only 5 remain in game. It's a matter of time to leave as well since I do not like being alone in there.

I am not about to leave, just yet, but I must say that the joy of immersing myself in the game seems to be gradually draining away with every expansion of in-Store content - apparently without much regard to possible negative in-game consequences.

I can fully understand that veterans (or less patient newcomers) may wish to accelerate their progress through the early stages of the game, even though, in my view, this means missing out on some of the game's best content. It is the "ripple effect" damage that is, in my opinion, likely to be caused by the sale of Stats-bearing gear in the Store that I am trying to highlight; I am not trying to tell anyone that they should not wish to speed through the game's early Levels if they so wish, but rather trying to say that there are other ways of achieving this which would not result in the damage to the game in general which in-Store Stats-bearing gear is, in my view, likely to cause.

As I have argued, if high-Stats gear at early Levels were deemed necessary (although I can't really see why), it could have been achieved by other routes: by adding the high-Stats gear to in-game Vendors, or by giving the Recipes to Novice/Journeyman Crafters (who have a pretty sparse list of Recipes to Craft, and who would, I'd guess, very much welcome the chance to increase their sales by being able to create some highly useful and saleable gear), instead of placing the gear in the Store only, thus removing even more players from the social side of the game by negating their need to approach Crafters, or to take up Crafting/trading themselves, at an early stage in the game.

LotRO may be, as Sapience states, attracting new players, but I have never seen the usual population hubs as empty as they are now. Obviously those new players are *somewhere*, but they're not interacting much with each other in the way they used to. Removing one of the few ways in which a new player might have a need to engage with others, i.e. in order to obtain better gear, surely can't be a good idea under such circumstances...?

* * * * * * * *

@Macroscian:

Originally Posted by Macroscian

I'm sorry but no...just No.
In three days I found one piece of crit level 22 medium armor - on Brandywine. Needless to say, I had no need for the armor after 25 because of the Barrow set readily available.
There is no reason to whine about making the game more playable for everyone involved. You WILL not gather sturdy hides and I WILL have armor for my alts.

Sorry, but I don't understand you? Are you agreeing with me and saying that Crafting (and/or the social side of the game, too, if you ask me) will be heavily damaged or even destroyed by the ability to buy superior on-Level gear in-Store? And if you agree with this, are you saying that this is a *good* thing...?!

Is there some kind of problem with the developers trying to balance the game to make it "more playable for everyone involved"? Isn't that what any decent game developer, in any game genre, attempts to do? More choice for players = more customers = more revenue = more games sales = success, and in the end (one hopes) = more investment into the game, or do I have that equation wrong somewhere? I don't see where uber-powered Store-exclusive gear fits into this equation, personally: rather, it breaks it completely, by effectively removing the element of "choice".

Selling Stats-based gear in the Store which is, depending upon which piece you look at, anywhere between 8 and about 18 Levels superior to what can be gained by *ANY* on-Level in-game method (short of very rare Instance rewards, which don't comprise enough, below Level 25, to make even one set of gear) is hardly adding choice: it is reducing it, since most players will want to have the "best" gear they can at their particular Level, and making that gear Store-exclusive actually *reduces* choice by rendering on-Level Quest reward and Crafted gear (and thus Crafting itself) obsolete to anyone with TP to spend (and all players can earn that). Do I not make sense on this?

Are you arguing that the game developers should *not* be trying to make the game "more playable for everyone involved" (and Crafters are part of that "everyone", remember)?

Or are you saying that adding Stats-bearing gear to the Store *IS* an example of making the game "more playable for everyone involved"? Are you saying that you will buy the in-Store gear instead of obtaining it by another route, and that you cannot see a problem occurring if everyone follows suit?

Are you saying that my post is a meaningless "whine", since (in your view) including Stats-bearing Armour in the Store is actually nothing more dangerous or problematic than "making the game more playable for everyone involved"?

Why should I, in your words, NOT gather Sturdy Hides? Again, are you suggesting that the demise of Crafting (including Resource-gathering and trading of those Resources, thus keeping the in-game economy alive) is actually something we should applaud and look forward to...?! Or, er, not?

I genuinely don't understand what you are trying to say. Clarification would be appreciated.

Thanks.

Best,

Demelza of Lórien
Friend of the Wild and Lady of Streams

All I see in the OP is marketing doubletalk with no substance or changes in attitude, then they release info about Rohan in an attempt to distract from this matter.

I don't even give this thread a week before its locked and deleted the same as the official one when they got hacked.

Originally Posted by Crazydwarf

I don't understand how people can take the "no end game gear" statement and then simply be okay with that ?
Sapience all but straight out says, that not only is levels 21-74 fair game, they are probably planning to stuff that with store gear. Just like in DDO.

Please stop focusing on end game, and keep the game as a whole in mind here.
The raid gear you wear now will hit the store when the level cap goes up, and new end game gear is introduced with expansions.

With an announced level cap raise to 85, current end-game gear can then go into the store, because it won't be end-game anymore. Funny how that works, isn't it?

Originally Posted by Abiyah

With an announced level cap raise to 85, current end-game gear can then go into the store, because it won't be end-game anymore. Funny how that works, isn't it?

Hilarious. Which is precisely Turbine's strength. Weasel words that mean nothing. Fine sounding phrases that leave them free to do whatever it takes to maximise the short term bottom line so long as there is an equivalent item of gear with +1 on a single stat somewhere in the game.

It's the difference between the spirit and the letter.

Originally Posted by Abiyah

With an announced level cap raise to 85, current end-game gear can then go into the store, because it won't be end-game anymore. Funny how that works, isn't it?

I'm not trying to make light of it, but .... so? If its not end-game gear any more, what's the issue? Or does this fall more in line with the whole, "there shouldn't be any gear with stats in the store" argument? I would understand this position then.

Originally Posted by Demelza

3. The damage to low-Level Crafting caused by selling items in-Store which do not just compete with it, but which are far superior to anything it can produce, cannot be overestimated. It is my opinion that, once a full range of low-Level gear appears in the Store (and nothing I have read so far convinces me that this will not occur), low-Level Crafting will simply become an irrelevance. And this will extend upwards, in due process of time, to mid- and high-Level Crafting, until the point where *all* Crafting becomes nothing but a second-rate choice for those who can't afford in-Store Stats-bearing gear. Great for those who dislike Crafting and want quick-fix powerful gear, but hardly in the long-term interests of maintaining LotRO as a multi-faceted, interesting environment, with something for everyone, and a few more things to do with one's time than simply killing stuff endlessly...?

4. The in-game economy relies heavily upon Crafting. If Crafting is damaged or, eventually, reduced to a kind of "niche" activity which only a few determined players continue to pursue, the in-game economy will take a huge hit. For those players who enjoy buying, selling and trading, this will represent a significant loss of enjoyment.

+1 cooky for the most awesome wall of text and one of THE best written posts I've ever seen on these forums.

To comment directly on what I quoted though, I have to disagree with your stated position. On my server, you will find that crafted items for low level toons are virtually non-existent on the AH and when available, they are outrageously priced. Crafted item availability in general on the AH has been lacking for a year or more. I can recall when the listings for a single jewellry category would run 7-9 pages, now most are less than 3. It seems to me that adding the stat gear can't damage low-level crafting, because people have already abandoned it (not too be confused as an endorsement).

Originally Posted by Feraxks

I'm not trying to make light of it, but .... so? If its not end-game gear any more, what's the issue? Or does this fall more in line with the whole, "there shouldn't be any gear with stats in the store" argument? I would understand this position then.

Yes, it does fit into the "no stats gear in the store" argument. Turbine is trying to ride the fence here; they've landed themselves in a controversy of their own creation, are seemingly shocked by player reaction, and give us words without action in an attempt to mollify.

Adam Mersky is on record saying, “Furthermore, we have no intention at this time of selling any raid gear in the store.” Sapience says, underlined and italicized, that there will be no end-game gear in the store. One remark is definitive, the other is vague. One remark comes from the community manager, the other from director of Digital Communications. One remark leaves the door open for the other to be completely disregarded.

Two remarks from one company pointing in different directions. Since they've already negated the end-game by announcing a new end-game, current end-game gear can be put up for sale with the excuse that there's new end-game on the way.

I wish to be sincere on this, as I don't want to come off as just another disgruntled old time player not thinking about the younger players. I must however disagree with your assessment on new characters needing this gear etc in the store. I also would like to point out, as others have, that your action has the literal capacity to cripple Metalsmiths and Tailors. Let me explain why before you just toss this in the fire because several others feel mutual and have been very displeased with the ROI scenario with our chosen vocations. I'll break it down in the way you did in your original post here.

- New players want/need to have access to lower level gear.
Proof they don't: I just made characters on Landroval and I went out and farmed materials and have made myself a variety of things. I did not trade a character from my other server to bring to Landroval, which I could have done and had such an advantage. No, I started off with greenies. What I did not have the ability to craft, I bought off the AH or I asked for the kindness of GLFF members, with the incentive to pay, who gladly responded to assist me and my needs and some even gave me things for free. I have also helped make other people's jewelry, since that is my dominant profession on Landroval at this time and if people ask, I give it away if I do have the mats. Maybe that is 'experience' talking but there are requests done by new people in Bree chat etc as well and they get responded to. When I'm in Esteldin, people offer trades of extra items they make. LotRO is a friendlier environment than most MMOs out there, if not all. Many of us will do things for cheap if not free even for those in need. I've seen it done and I carry on that kindness myself.

How it Hurts Tailors/Metalsmiths - After the introduction of ROI, much to our dismay, we found that we could no longer even make full sets of armour until 75. So, a couple pieces at 68, one at 70, a couple more at 72.. you broke it up on us so that either people are wearing Moria armour the whole way up or that they are tossing stuff for yellow drop gear to save money. I leveled two 75s with the old Helegrod gear because they were 65 endgame characters and the armour drops were pale in comparison and not even full sets. I literally saw no point in leveling my Hunter the same way and just earned him Moria gear (as there again is no crafted armour that can compare), and took that character to 75 with no issues at all. I power-leveled that character so he was not even filled in like my two former 75s that had a lot of work put into them.

I hope that conveys some of the pain we feel. You have jewelers on servers selling goods for 30g a pop because they can. You gave maybe one thing each that Tailors and Metalsmiths can do to even compare, except for the general Legendary stuff every class can make and it can be debatable seriously how useful the Tailor endgame legendary items are other than Weapons. We aren't making money anymore unless we are really shrewd and I really prefer to not be that way. We've been basically used as sit-ins in kins now making kin low-leveled armour and well, not making much money while you've harmed the other vocations but not nearly as much. One route we could have taken, and some have, is trying to sell lower leveled armours. Well, what's the point in that now if we have to compete with the store and go gather up low-leveled mats and crit items while the store doesn't have to put in any effort? Will there be the invention of higher than level 20 armour in the store? You do not mention this and merely leave us with the fact that there will apparently never be 'endgame' armour. Why should that be a comfort to any of us who like our crafting or want to make any money at all? Endgame armour is mainly Raid Gear that again, we don't make.

My Suggestions: Because I do hate to just rant and say blah blah is unfair without offering up any solution, I'd like to point out that perhaps you can fix some of this issue with the rest of us who were not just concerned with 'end game' stuff, by filling in the gaps you did to us from 60+ and give us some decent armour to craft. Whole sets: Not this broken piece-meal gear, please! Then we, who put in countless hours of effort to master Tailor and Metalsmith, have even a hope of feeling useful anymore. To be just, of course, this may mean you would want to adjust the other vocations as well, which might actually force some prices to be more consistent with all vocations. On the off-chance you are correct, that low levels can't easily get access, which I debate because most of the time they just have need to ask and maybe provide some mats, this idea would fix what you say is a problem while also making our professions not go dead in the water.

The second suggestion would be to make it so higher end vocations can make lower level armours at cheaper cost in mats. For example, a Westfold or Supreme Tailor could make low end armour with half the cost of leather mats so that we would not have to spend so much time gathering mats or breaking our own banks to sell critted stuff. Perhaps make a guild recipe that allows a Tailor or Metalsmith time to not waste crit mats (fibers etc) of lower tiered armours for a certain allotted time but gets the bonus to crafting. Something like that to encourage in-game armour production would possibly fix things and then if you keep your armour in store, maybe then a comparison can be done at a later time to see if it helps?

Which brings me to my final point here. It's not just about making in-game gold here that makes me write to you. It's the fact that I did go through the effort to make a character defined as a max-guild ranked Tailor who was also up as high as he could go in Metalsmith. The character was useful at a time and now in kin, unless it's for a Wyrmscale Cloak, no one needs anything after level 58, or debatably 56, because again, you can power-level in Moria armour right up to 75 and just hit Draigoch and skirm raids. Now it just feels like there's no point to it and all that effort was for nothing because we can't even get full sets of armour. I like making armour sets, as hokey as that sounds, and suiting up needs of people in and out of kin. I don't get that joy or pride nearly as much anymore. Despite the fact some jewelers have made out like bandits, I am sure it bothers them too that they can't craft whole sets until 75 either, let alone Weaponsmiths who are also kind of feeling useless lately. Crafting took a hefty blow but I believe Tailors and Metalsmiths were hit the hardest. I ask for balance not just because we can't make much money anymore but also because we have a potential again to actually mean something where people will ask for a Tailor or Metalsmith to craft them sets. Please consider this as an alternative way to make some of us feel less like we entered useless professions that literally can die as early as 56, when a metalsmith can make their last set of cool tools and both professions can make their last sets of useful armour as people level into Moria gear.

Originally Posted by Abiyah

Two remarks from one company pointing in different directions. Since they've already negated the end-game by announcing a new end-game, current end-game gear can be put up for sale with the excuse that there's new end-game on the way.

Okay, I see and understand your POV. I think its a stretch to think they would place current end-game gear in the store due to the newly announced expansion (logically its still end-game gear until RoR is released)(Yes, I know I said logically while refering to Turbine). I don't think its a stretch to see current end-game gear in the store shortly after the new expansion is released, should they decide to go that route at all.

Originally Posted by Demelza

@Macroscian:



Sorry, but I don't understand you? Are you agreeing with me and saying that Crafting (and/or the social side of the game, too, if you ask me) will be heavily damaged or even destroyed by the ability to buy superior on-Level gear in-Store? And if you agree with this, are you saying that this is a *good* thing...?!

Is there some kind of problem with the developers trying to balance the game to make it "more playable for everyone involved"? Isn't that what any decent game developer, in any game genre, attempts to do? More choice for players = more customers = more revenue = more games sales = success, and in the end (one hopes) = more investment into the game, or do I have that equation wrong somewhere? I don't see where uber-powered Store-exclusive gear fits into this equation, personally: rather, it breaks it completely, by effectively removing the element of "choice".

Selling Stats-based gear in the Store which is, depending upon which piece you look at, anywhere between 8 and about 18 Levels superior to what can be gained by *ANY* on-Level in-game method (short of very rare Instance rewards, which don't comprise enough, below Level 25, to make even one set of gear) is hardly adding choice: it is reducing it, since most players will want to have the "best" gear they can at their particular Level, and making that gear Store-exclusive actually *reduces* choice by rendering on-Level Quest reward and Crafted gear (and thus Crafting itself) obsolete to anyone with TP to spend (and all players can earn that). Do I not make sense on this?

Are you arguing that the game developers should *not* be trying to make the game "more playable for everyone involved" (and Crafters are part of that "everyone", remember)?

Or are you saying that adding Stats-bearing gear to the Store *IS* an example of making the game "more playable for everyone involved"? Are you saying that you will buy the in-Store gear instead of obtaining it by another route, and that you cannot see a problem occurring if everyone follows suit?

Are you saying that my post is a meaningless "whine", since (in your view) including Stats-bearing Armour in the Store is actually nothing more dangerous or problematic than "making the game more playable for everyone involved"?

Why should I, in your words, NOT gather Sturdy Hides? Again, are you suggesting that the demise of Crafting (including Resource-gathering and trading of those Resources, thus keeping the in-game economy alive) is actually something we should applaud and look forward to...?! Or, er, not?

I genuinely don't understand what you are trying to say. Clarification would be appreciated.

I'm telling you quite clearly that there is no crafting to break. If I can't find a readily available auction for the lowlevel armor I need in three days on the largest server by far, then there is not crafting to hinder.

Instead of a wall of text I try to be specific and to the point.

Unless you gather sturdy, medium, light hides and make crit armor for lower levels, you don't have an argument.

I'm 100% certain there is no such armor available in auction and, possibly because of you and your lengthy arguing, there will be no such armor available in the store. The way I see it, your argument stops my game progress.

I'll slow the text down so it's easier to read:

• there are no critical success medium armor parts being sold in auction for character level below 30
  (well there was the one helmet in three days and it cost 2g buyout, I'll accept that anomaly)
• this means nobody is crafting those armor parts for profit or fun and posting them in auction

I don't accept your argument because you base it on thin air.

Originally Posted by Macroscian

I'm telling you quite clearly that there is no crafting to break.

Because Turbine already broke it when they stripped out the recipes. For the most part, the only gear of those levels you'll find were crafted by those who had the appropriate tier before the "bug". Any new crafters are limited to the basic yellow gear they get by default, which is only good for vendor trash.

Intended or not, it does seem odd that they would add the armor before fixing the recipes.

Originally Posted by Macroscian

I'm telling you quite clearly that there is no crafting to break. If I can't find a readily available auction for the lowlevel armor I need in three days on the largest server by far, then there is not crafting to hinder.

Instead of a wall of text I try to be specific and to the point.

Unless you gather sturdy, medium, light hides and make crit armor for lower levels, you don't have an argument.

I'm 100% certain there is no such armor available in auction and, possibly because of you and your lengthy arguing, there will be no such armor available in the store. The way I see it, your argument stops my game progress.

I'll slow the text down so it's easier to read:

• there are no critical success medium armor parts being sold in auction for character level below 30
  (well there was the one helmet in three days and it cost 2g buyout, I'll accept that anomaly)
• this means nobody is crafting those armor parts for profit or fun and posting them in auction

I don't accept your argument because you base it on thin air.

Well frankly I don't buy your story either, there is no armor on the AH and I'm on the largest server in the game but fail now 3 times to name the server that you are playing on. Seems to me you would rather us have to buy your story then to check things out for ourselves.

Also, here is what i don't get, why are you unwilling to craft for your own needs or profit if it's not there?

Now you could give me some response about your time being to valuable therefore you won't craft. However if you time is so valuable, why are you wasting it here on the forums or in game in the 1st place?




Orladen

Originally Posted by Macroscian

I'm telling you quite clearly that there is no crafting to break. If I can't find a readily available auction for the lowlevel armor I need in three days on the largest server by far, then there is not crafting to hinder.

Instead of a wall of text I try to be specific and to the point.

Unless you gather sturdy, medium, light hides and make crit armor for lower levels, you don't have an argument.

I'm 100% certain there is no such armor available in auction and, possibly because of you and your lengthy arguing, there will be no such armor available in the store. The way I see it, your argument stops my game progress.

I'll slow the text down so it's easier to read:

• there are no critical success medium armor parts being sold in auction for character level below 30
  (well there was the one helmet in three days and it cost 2g buyout, I'll accept that anomaly)
• this means nobody is crafting those armor parts for profit or fun and posting them in auction

I don't accept your argument because you base it on thin air.

I've mentioned this earlier and in the prior post, but one thing to realize is just because there is no armour on the AH currently at that point does not indicate that there are no crafters posting armour on the AH.

I've done crafting off and on over the past ~3 years, but various limitations/constraints in-game make it difficult to maintain a strong variety on the AH. In the past couple of weeks I decided to dedicate a good deal of effort to crafting and posting on FF's AH and the results?

Within 2 weeks, I've sold >700 crit armour pieces from L7-28 at reasonable (at least to me) prices and it is extremely difficult to keep up with the demand. Price range - between 50s (L7)->~250/300s (L28) & no shard recipes. I'll craft ~100 items per tier, per light/medium/heavy and within 2-3 days I'll sell out completely of the T3 gear (L22-28) whether Light/Medium/Heavy. At various times while I've posted 100s of pieces across various alts, there have been no items available in some ranges because they sold out and I have not yet replenished.

Quite honestly, I would love to be able to keep it up to some degree, but the system limitations can be difficult/time-consuming to work with:

For the AH:
- Limit of 30 slots max posting (to maintain sets of gear at various levels it takes multiple alts, so it's not impossiblem just difficult)
- Time limit of 2 days. While often the items sell, it would be nice to have it extended to more easily maintain tiers that sell slower
- Some seller options.
-- Sorting/filtering on the posting tab to see what is up and what is not.
-- A History of some sort on what you have sold previously and at what price. If the exact item is not up because it sold while you were off-line, it would be nice to not have to re-price it.
-- When an item is mailed via the mail system after expiration, offer a "re-post" option on the mail to place the item for the exact same price/duration/etc.

For Crafting (only the biggest hurdle):
- Allow for some/any adjustment on critting lower-tier recipes. The optional items tend to be the limiting factor (especially Flax which is primarily found harvesting wood, but used the most for both light & heavy armour). There are a lot of possibilities. Flax really was hit the hardest and it would be nice to have some other way to obtain the items and/or reduce the need for them at lower tiers.

After what I've seen/sold over the past couple of weeks I definitey see that there is a strong demand for quality gear at these levels (regardless of whether it is needed or not) and that given the current set up of systems and for numerous other reasons there is a growing disparity over what is available on the AH and what players are looking for. With another level cap increase it will only get worse.

Do I think this is the best approach? Time will tell, but it is probably one of the quickest to implement. I'd hope to see some in-game adjustments as well to alleviate some of the effort required for crafters to help other players out if they want to. The OP, while may not indicate any actions taken at this time it brought what was needed most at this time - some clarification as to the why. I hope it continues not only for future items as they are added, but for existing items as well.

It's probably just me, but I try to approach the game by paying money for content I want (whether quest packs or expansions), then using VIP points on my lifetime account & earned TP via gameplay on all of our accounts to pick up the extras such as storage, outfits, etc. I was actually quite happy to see when RoI was available via cash vs. TP as I'd rather spend the money on a clear item vs. an ambigious pool of TP. If there are items I don't care for in the store, I don't buy them.

If ever there is a time that I feel that cannot finish content without using the store, it's at that point that I do not wish to see the game/store evolve. The stat armour was/is a major concern for me, not in and of itself, but it was another step in that direction and one that seemed to be taboo/directly against the "policy" set forth when F2P launched. I still have my some strong concerns over various things mentioned ad naseum here and elsewhere, but I hope to see the communication contiue. I didn't mean to ramble on so, but just wanted to add some of my thoughts.

Originally Posted by StavroMuellerBeta

Because Turbine already broke it when they stripped out the recipes. For the most part, the only gear of those levels you'll find were crafted by those who had the appropriate tier before the "bug". Any new crafters are limited to the basic yellow gear they get by default, which is only good for vendor trash.

Intended or not, it does seem odd that they would add the armor before fixing the recipes.

aye indeed it does look as though a system was broken or left broken in order to create a problem that the store could "solve".

Originally Posted by Macroscian

• there are no critical success medium armor parts being sold in auction for character level below 30
  (well there was the one helmet in three days and it cost 2g buyout, I'll accept that anomaly)
• this means nobody is crafting those armor parts for profit or fun and posting them in auction

Why do you preclude the possibility that the REASON there are no crafted things is because F2P, the skirmish system, and the ability to buff yourself with storebought stuff instead of needing proper armor are all encouraging people to blast through the low levels as fast as possible (and now, compounded by storebought armor):

the thought process seems to be--
why mosey around getting on-level deeds, visiting all the locations, etc, when I could level up super fast and get the deed rewards (ie, virtues, travel, etc) in the store?
why spend silver on on-level gear when I'm just going to level up tomorrow so I can do skirmishes, so I can level up my soldier to be competitive for raid skirms once i'm eligible?
since nothing new is being released for the low levels, why grind through all that again on my alts [I have to admit, I fall for this one sometimes], and how long is it going to be before I can raid? [that half isn't me]

I don't agree with Demelza (*waves* ohai) that crafting is a way to socialize - I just use the AH for non-kin crafting encounters (too many 12 year olds annoying me out there). However, the other issues and aspects of her post make sense to me and, honestly, paint a picture that is all too clear. (I'd prefer some impressionism next time, Demelza, preferably with some waterlilies if you've got any, and another shrubbery, to make a nice two-level effect... wait, I think I'm mixing my metaphors).

My [rarely-raiding] kinship has seen a sharp decline in the number of kinfolk who actually log in. I know at least some of them have given up. Just having more end-game grind isn't enough; it's growing upward like a viney weed, but it needs to grow outward like a bush. I think some of the choices the devs are making are pruning that vine so that it won't spread too far out. Not cool.

Originally Posted by Luder85

In summary, I like the game the way it is thankyou, I will buy from the store what I wish and ignore the rest. If crafting dies (as many of the regular posters in here seem to think it will) as a result of the armour in store, well, give me a couple of months to get to Westfold everything, and then drop me a line in-game with relevant mat's and silver I'll craft whatever you need.

Just putting up something for you to consider :

You went through and mentioned how you enjoyed the various aspects of the game as it is. Good for you. Nothing is wrong with that. However, did you notice that many people here are not talking about game mechanics? Instead, they are expressing their dissatisfaction with issues like Trust, Lack of Communications, Errors in Communications, and outright Contradictions and un-truths. These aren't things like game mechanics where one can say "I like crafting the way it is", because folks are not talking about specific game elements. But instead the tone and the backlashes are primarily directed at the lack of trust that now exists between company and customers. A partnership, be it business, romantic or casual, requires that one single thing to foster. And here is a key aspect of the equation that no one can say "I like the current state of lack of trust just the way it is".

So with all due respect, you can go on and on about how much you like crafting or making things upon requests, but at the end of the day you are missing the crux of this conversation. People want a partner that they can trust and believe in as they walk hand in hand in the journey towards Fun. They cannot do that now. If you have contributions on this discussion on how or why Turbine is actually deserving of our trust, I'm sure many people would be glad to hear your side of the story. But simply pointing at how much you love developing alts, or got a good deal on Amazon or crafting is really missing the point of this whole conversation.

Originally Posted by Luder85

If crafting dies (as many of the regular posters in here seem to think it will) as a result of the armour in store, well, give me a couple of months to get to Westfold everything, and then drop me a line in-game with relevant mat's and silver I'll craft whatever you need.

If crafting dies, just how do you plan on doing this?

Sorry, I am not buying this. It's just more spin that certainly does not make up for the lack of communications and, even worse the lack of content quality these past month. It certainly seems like more effort goes into how to sell more items via the shop than there is into delivering a working expansion.

Just remove the store armor. Please, also remove the relic removal scrolls and make the mechanics available ingame again. The addition of those both was not game content and fixes nothing what you may perceive as lacking in the game. It does give the impression of ruthless money grabbing though and that impression is very detrimental to the future of LotRO.

Originally Posted by Sapience

In considering how to implement this decision, a simple choice needed to be made: Should we offer a piece of armor that was good for a set level range with the tradeoff that it may be a significant boost at the bottom of that level range or should we design a piece that was underpowered at the top of its range? To be safe, we erred on the side of being too generous in value, thinking that few could fault us for doing so.

Clearly, we got that wrong.

Uh huuhhhh........... Upon seeing this, I immediately tried to rifle through the thread responses for confirmation that the store gear were nerfed. And only saw this--

Originally Posted by Ayrolen

I've been sitting here for a couple of hours pondering my response. While I appreciate the effort to create more open discussion, I'm still angry that the armour is there in the first place and that's not ever going to change. I'm even angrier that the armour is so much better than anything that can be obtained in-game and that it can be sold to a vendor. Gold is SO easily obtained in this game that it is completely unnecessary to allow this armour to be sold for more gold. I was hoping to hear that that gear was being nerfed a bit and the vendorable status was being removed. That would make it slightly more palatable for me. Right now this just feels like, "Yeah, we read your 80 page thread, but we don't particularly care enough about all of you old fart players who have been supporting the game for 5+ years to take any action. So take it or leave it."

^Well, great.

Turbine can verbally admit being wrong about an approach to something but refuses to take action, which is more valuable than ANYTHING else. Turbine, I hope you realize this absolutely cheapens all of your words, which negates much of this "communication effort" to earn back trust. (As I said elsewhere, though--frog in pot! This is another point where some frogs are jumping out, at least.)

This and RoR, among other things, aren't encouraging.

/sigh


__________
U5/Patch 5.1 Instance Join skirmish earnings data | Crit crafting & the RNG | Dumb noob things we've done in LotRO...
"Be not so eager to advance that you fail to experience the moment, in life and in all things." -Deluros, Rivendell

Originally Posted by Trilwych

This and RoR, among other things, aren't encouraging.

/sigh

The announcement of the new ex-pac came to soon on top of the public "apology" to be anything other than a ploy to try to draw attention away from the armor in the store. In the log in screen, the announcement of the expansion had "headline" status for all of a day, to be promptly replaced by another ad for the store, "Start a New Class & Store More!" Seriously? That's not even subliminal.

There are some serious questions and concerns raised in this thread. While daily communication isn't exactly looked for from you, Sapience, when there is an issue of this magnitude that you were compelled to post the corporate sentiment you did, it's going to take more communication than is being given. I'm not exactly sure what you do as community manager, but addressing the concerns of the community should be pretty close to the top of your job description.

Buying gold or buying armour worth gold from the Turbine Store wouldn't by necessity ruin the economy.

This is new gold into the system, that comes with no cost. Turbine employees don't have to "farm" the gold, the gold is generated within the game itself, independent of any players.

The only cost comes to players who rely on things like NPC coin drops and NPC vendors, because the value of selling an item to a vendor goes down.

In general, this is a positive thing for the economy, for most of the players.

Originally Posted by The_Rohanic_Elf

Buying gold or buying armour worth gold from the Turbine Store wouldn't by necessity ruin the economy.

This is new gold into the system, that comes with no cost. Turbine employees don't have to "farm" the gold, the gold is generated within the game itself, independent of any players.

The only cost comes to players who rely on things like NPC coin drops and NPC vendors, because the value of selling an item to a vendor goes down.

In general, this is a positive thing for the economy, for most of the players.

/facepalm

Good luck keeping these F2P commando's attention. You are doing real damage to your historical audience, the long term VIP's. What will you do when the next flavor of the month MMO comes along and you have lost both your long term customers and the flavor of the month club?

[EDIT-Rohanic didn't do anything to deserve me to be vendictive. Turbine has done that.]

WELL.

Wasn't that way overdue!

But I for one am very very happy that it was finally acknowledged!

Note To Turbine Staff: Read, and reply to, your forums!!!

Especially the class developers!



Thank you so much for the sincere post Sapience!!
You have made this veterans' day!