Thread: A word about the new gear offerings in the LOTRO Store

Hi everyone,

We are very aware of the controversy surrounding the introduction of the new starter armor kits. We also understand why many of you are complaining. We’d like to take a moment to explain our rationale and provide some insight into how we have been approaching certain aspects of the game.

Why do we do what we do?
We love LOTRO and we love The Lord of the Rings. We here at Turbine and throughout WB revere the setting and strive every day to bring the amazing lands of Middle-earth to life for the largest possible audience. LOTRO enjoys tremendous support throughout Turbine and Warner Bros. and we are constantly working together to grow the game.

This drive for ongoing commercial success generally works in everyone’s favor. The launch of LOTRO’s F2P version, for instance, multiplied monthly audiences and provided an increase in revenues which we will re-invest in the game. We’ve been ramping up for some time now and you’ll start to see more evidence of that re-investment this year in the form of major new content and game systems.

In addition to new development, one of the benefits of our recent success with LOTRO is an increased investment in marketing and advertising. It’s not easy for current players to see, but the fact is that we get thousands of new players in LOTRO every single day. It’s that flow of new players that’s caused a difference in viewpoints between some of us at Turbine and some of you who play the game.

Why Starter Armor?
We monitor and report internally on many aspects of the game as we strive to tune the experience. Something that’s emerged over time is an increasing gap between low level and high level players. It’s an issue that many MMOs face as they reach maturity: With many players at or near cap, what happens to the game experience for those at lower levels?

Those of you who have been with the game since the beginning know that we have used a number of methods to adjust the game in an effort to help new players join the main community at the cap more quickly including XP adjustments, content changes, and itemization updates.

As part of our ongoing commitment to LOTRO we plan to continue to release meaningful expansions that add to the world on a regular basis. That commitment means that we are leaving some new players farther and farther behind the veteran community.

One of the things the F2P model brings to the table is the concept of player choice and multiple paths to a satisfying play experience. The model offers us the ability to address the specific needs of a tightly targeted player group, instead of making sweeping changes to the game systems, or broader content, that would impact all players.

We looked at progression and saw an analog to something we had witnessed before – in DDO. In that case we introduced low-level, but meaningful items into the game and saw that players who took that option progressed farther and stayed with the game longer. Based on this information and the trends from in-game, it seemed like the right time to try something similar for LOTRO.

In considering how to implement this decision, a simple choice needed to be made: Should we offer a piece of armor that was good for a set level range with the tradeoff that it may be a significant boost at the bottom of that level range or should we design a piece that was underpowered at the top of its range? To be safe, we erred on the side of being too generous in value, thinking that few could fault us for doing so.

Clearly, we got that wrong.

Stop me if it hurts… How about now?
To say that we were unprepared for the feedback we got would be inaccurate. We certainly expected the introduction of a new type of item to the store to drive discussion – some of it passionate. That said, the magnitude and tenor of the conversation was unexpected.

So, in no particular order, let’s address some of the things that have been said over the past few days:

• Turbine said that they would never sell gear in the store.

If we did, we apologize. We give a lot of interviews and talk to lots of people at tradeshows. Our official line is and has been that we don’t sell end-game gear. Could somebody have shaved that line in discussions with the press or had their quote summarized into a statement they didn’t intend? Absolutely. We’re not perfect. We’ve been very consistent with one message since announcing our move to F2P: We don’t sell end game gear, but we may introduce starter items or packs in the future like DDO. We’ve tried to be as open and straightforward as we can on this and other points.

• Patience said convenience, not advantage.

Very true. It’s one of our guiding principles. Some people have time, others have money and when players are willing to trade money for time we usually consider that a convenience. Our goal is to allow players to customize their play experience to deliver as much fun per hour of play as they want without impacting the play of others.

• What’s not a convenience?

Anything that’s compulsory to be competitive in ranked play or achieves something by degrading another player’s experience. We have not and will not make that part of our F2P offering.

• WB has taken over Turbine and turned them into corporate [INSERT EXPLETIVE HERE]

WB did indeed buy Turbine, but they have largely left the game studio alone. We now have more resources to put into LOTRO and a much nicer office, but otherwise much is as it was. Specifically, there is no-one outside of the walls of Turbine HQ who had any say in the release of these items or any aspect of our MTX catalog. This was our call and ours alone, so point the blame cannons right over here please.

• The items can be sold for Gold!

True. They can. As mentioned above, we were worried about these armors not having a high enough perceived value so we added the ability to vendor them to get some of the value back at the end of their useful life. As some commented at the beginning, gear changes and you level beyond it. We assigned a value to these items specifically because we recognized this issue. Furthermore, we actively tracked auction house prices in game to help set these values.

• Won’t the gold unbalance the economy?

Our data makes it pretty clear that the vast majority of veteran players have as much gold as they need already. For lower level players, the value should be clear in relation to the armor kit, as stated above. If we start seeing lots of kits going to high level players who do nefarious things with their purchased gold, we will consider the implications and adjust accordingly.

• It’s a slippery slope. Next thing you know end game armor & weapons will be for sale in the store!

We’ve gone through a lot of changes in the past year but one thing we can still say is we’re all passionate about LOTRO, too. We don’t want to wreck it either. We want everybody to have as much fun as possible, but we don’t want to do it by breaking the game. Anybody who’s participated in an end of beta event with us knows how fun an unbalanced game can be – but it can’t last. We’re all travelling to Mt. Doom with you and nobody wants the trip cut short, so please trust us on this. To make it perfectly clear:
We will not sell end-game gear.

Now, we have released these starter items and some low-level players have purchased and continue to purchase them. We will monitor progression through the low levels over the coming weeks and will see if these items are having the desired effect. In the meantime we certainly heard the concerns about the power-level of the items and their silver value and are already reviewing how to adjust going forward. The items may stay or they may go. They may also be changed to better serve the needs of the game. We’ll know more in a few weeks.

That brings us to our final point: communication.

We’ll take this as a sign that we need to do a better job in clear and open communication. In the future we will take more time to explain why - not just what we’re doing.

Thanks to everyone who participated in this discussion. As always we appreciate your passion and will continue to listen to your feedback.

Thank you for this Hopefully this will settle some peoples nerves.
I hope we hear a lot more in future.

Wow, just wow. This is definitely something alot of people needed to hear. Thank you Sapience! More where that came from! (the post, not the actual armors in the store)

There is nothing wrong with this at all. The higher the level cap gets the harder it is for newer players. I've personally spoke with several new players after recently rolling a new character and they get very frustraited with the lack of EVERYTHING at low lvs. There are not enough players, there isn't enough low lv gear in the AH and of course there was no Turbine support for these players.

I'm pleased to see this and hope in the future you guys will expand on this by adding much much more to low lv chacater packages.

Some stuff I would like to see:
-Insta cap PvP chacacters-With base line gear and class traits. *Like you guys did in SoA beta.
If players want to pvp like creeps can, allow them to do so.

-Higher lv gear packages. These packages should at least get us to Moria. I'm comfertable with players getting a faster lving, better gear up to lv 50 IF they want it and IF they want to pay for it.

-Better class trait, virtue and legendary support in the store. Just buying a Virtue doesn't work for me personally. They are too expensive. But I do like the scrolls, it allows me to work at them while still feeling rewarded at the end, just happens faster. I would like to see Legendary page scrolls where they drop faster. When you hit lv 40 and buy all your books it can seem a bit daunting at times.

-New character lvs. I dont want to play a new class through the Shire anymore-When can I buy a lv 50 toon with TP? I dont care how much it costs, I've played the game for a while now and I just want to get to endgame. But I dont have the time to lv a new character through 75 lvs. I could handle 25 though.



Again-There is nothing wrong with these types of features in the store. If we as a game and we as a community are losing new players because of the lack of low lv support, its a big shame and Turbine would fail as a company to not try and find a way to retain these players.

Not impressed nor persuaded.

Perhaps I'm reading it wrong, but the basic thrust of it seems to be: We [Turbine] do these things for a reason, and you long-term guys just don't get it, and besides you really aren't our focus anymore anyway.


As for the whole "If we did, we apologize" in response to selling gear in the store, I'd be more persuaded if you had clarified your position at any point over the last year or so as people discussed it.


Oh, and one other point. You stated that F2P "multiplied monthly audiences and provided an increase in revenues which we will re-invest in the game." [emphasis mine]. Do I take that to mean that you haven't re-invested these increased F2P revenues up to this point? That would explain a lot about ROI...

Thank you for explaining this.

I just have a couple of questions though:

If you had already decided to err on the side of being too generous with the stats, why did you say at the start of the other thread that there was better gear available in-game? (Obviously the statement is literally true, level 75 gear is better, but making the statement implies there is better gear available in-game on-level.)

If the availability of low-level gear was a problem, why not add more places to get it in-game rather than adding it to the store when it was pretty clear that a lot of players would be upset by this?

Thanks for taking the time to respond to the community concerns.

In terms of not selling statted gear there have been a huge number of ways this has been circumvented already (top teir relics, high end stat tomes etc).

However, it's very reassuring that we have a definative "We will not sell end game gear" post as while the journey getting to level cap in lotro is highly enjoyable, the best part of this game in my opinion is grouping with other people at level cap to gear out and have fun (and hence keeps people playing and the game alive).

Originally Posted by Sapience

Hi everyone,
We will not sell end-game gear.

I'm aware that armour is gear but isnt end game relics, potions and maybe even stats tome "end- game gear"?
I mean as tools we use to improve our end-game characters?

For me, the Store is already selling end-game gear for a long time. Guess most players became concerned now that in future store will sell ALL the end-game gear and that those who dont buy it would have to play through an endless grind.

what about first ages drop from loot boxes for which key can be bought in store? thats not end game weapons for sale? But Im not 100% sure if they drop for real, but I heard many people were talking about it.

Thanks for the official reply.

Unfortunately all your answers will NOT make me return to the game. I am not sorry about that.

All the offical answers are basically bogus, spin doctored to make "us dumb players" feel better now that we have "some answers". Won't work for me.

If you want me and my 3 subs and my friends to return, here's what I would have to see In Game:

1. Renewed/Improved and Competitive Recipes for all crafters. Each one as good or BETTER than the store.

2. "Turbine's Compulsory" and "My Compulsory" definitions are different.

Anything that requires access to a Store Item to open/use/unlock/enable/remove/add/delete ANYTHING in game MUST be IN the game and not unreasonably accessable thru In Game means. Grinding 1,000,000 wargs for a Relic Removal Scroll is un-reasonable. Downing the Lieutenant of Dol Guldur 100 times hard mode with no deaths is un-reasonable. Find some "happy" medium. I can do 10 quests for tokens to get my scroll or 10 skirmishes to get points. Not 100 or 1000 or In The Store Only.

I will accept your assertion that you will not sell raid or high level gear at face value. This much I can grant you. But for the rest the above 2 items MUST be in place before I return.

I will monitor this thread now to see what ADDITIONAL items Turbine will commit too. But until I see it In Game - No More Money For You.

Thank you for a very well-written and clear letter. I appreciate that it addresses the concerns that have arisen in the community, and on the whole, for me at least, it largely answers them. I especially appreciate your sharing the analysis that those players who do purchase lower level items stay with the game longer. In many cases, only Turbine has the actual data as to what players actually do, what percentage of the player base they represent, and how it impacts their long-term commitment to the game. The absence of that data, players speculate quite a bit and develop strong opinions based on their own experience, which may or may not reflect the larger trends. Information like what you shared helps us be more accurate in our perceptions.

I do hope that you will be much more up front and open about the issues that concern players, the realities Turbine sees, and Turbine's reasoning for their solutions for decisions like this and for others, whether it be class changes, instance bugs or housing.

Thanks for a good response. Much useful information and food for thought.

Originally Posted by Sapience

• Patience said convenience, not advantage.

Very true. It’s one of our guiding principles. Some people have time, others have money and when players are willing to trade money for time we usually consider that a convenience. Our goal is to allow players to customize their play experience to deliver as much fun per hour of play as they want without impacting the play of others.

• What’s not a convenience?

Anything that’s compulsory to be competitive in ranked play or achieves something by degrading another player’s experience. We have not and will not make that part of our F2P offering.

Uh huh. So what's the word on store-exclusive pots/relics, stat tomes, and damage reduction scrolls? How is that NOT advantage?

I've asked this question several times over the past year or so and never received an official answer.

Originally Posted by Sapience

That brings us to our final point: communication.

We’ll take this as a sign that we need to do a better job in clear and open communication. In the future we will take more time to explain why - not just what we’re doing.

This is a good starting point.

Thank you Sapience. Lets tick these off shall we...

1. Turbine don't listen
2. Turbine don't communicate
3. Turbine don't care
4. Turbine will sell end game gear

I'm sure there are others but that'll do for now, and hopefully we can get back to some meaningful discourse about the future of LoTRO now. Speaking of which, how's that 2012 roadmap coming?

As one who was pretty vocal about all this it's good that Turbine has actually come and said something, and I'm fairly happy with whats been said. For me the armors themselves weren't an issue (possibility of raid armor at end game was) but the other store evils like stat tomes, store boost pots and the irksome relic removal scroll. As someone mentioned earlier the sale of store only relics and stat tomes are largely about end game already but I think and hope what is meant by end game gear is jewellery/armour/weapons. Fair enough, I say. of course this means that as the level caps go up sales of previous lvl cap raid gear is possible? I kinda hope not but whatever, it won't bother me.

Originally Posted by Sapience

That brings us to our final point: communication.

We’ll take this as a sign that we need to do a better job in clear and open communication. In the future we will take more time to explain why - not just what we’re doing.

Excellent. Does that mean you'd be willing to provide a similarly detailed account of Turbine's actions and or plans regarding PvMP?

Originally Posted by Sapience

WB has taken over Turbine and turned them into corporate [INSERT EXPLETIVE HERE]

I laughed. I do admire your sense of humor.

Originally Posted by Killien

Speaking of which, how's that 2012 roadmap coming?

Coming along quite nicely. We'll have things to share in the very near future.

thats a first step towards us, your comunity...

just few notes tho...

sellin shop only runes, which are better than stuff available ingame, as much as stat tomes, is already advantage, as manies the players have stated elsewhere... so if ya wanne provide different options, fair play to ya, fine with that, but make the things available via gameplay too... achievable in a realistic way... no heretic grindin, lock yaself in ya room thing...

thousands of new players every day... really? the european server i play on, has about 1000 players online prime time...
i ve been to the startin areas recently an i wasnt burried underneath masses of low level toons tbh...

but nevermind, fact is, all the trouble has reached yous sumhow an that is satisfyin indeed...

if we, as players, complain about changes or bugs, most of us relax after an official statement, but if we dont hear anythin on our concerns, yes, we re getn nervous... if content is promised, it has to come the promised way (pvp revamp, new area )

thanks so far... i see sum light beyond the clouds...

Ok so selling end-game gear is sorted.

Now can we hear your arguments for store exclusive relics and tomes?

Thanks for the reply, it is greatly appreciated and goes a long way to alleviated some concerns.

We still don't trust you though. The trust is going to have to be earned back over the long haul.

Sorry to be a negative Nancy here in an otherwise positive thread, but this just reads like a lot of lip service to me, followed up with but we are going to do as we please anyway. It feels like a desperate reaction to try and save face with the public at this point.

The fact is the armor is no the problem, it's that Turbine broke a promise to the player base. You can Bold and underline lots of words on a forum; but it seems all it takes to undo them is to say well we misspoke.


Short of removing advantages from the store, I don't think anything can be done to save face with me.



Orladen

Originally Posted by Arvaen

Excellent. Does that mean you'd be willing to provide a similarly detailed account of Turbine's actions and or plans regarding PvMP?

revampin, well, reanimatin the moors will b a difficult cause... after they re pretty much vast acres of dust atm... the pvp only players who have left, wont come back... so its about how to motivate those ,who had hardly been there before... server cluster? maybe? rewards an finally a rankin system that grants advantage? i hear the pve crowds protest... i fear its a little late to save the pvp content, alas its sad, i know quite manies the interested gamers... a good first step would b to make the moors all available for f2p...

+ rep here for the honesty and openess


we don't mean to whine honest

I'll repeat what I said it that other thread, because it got lost in the 80 pages of it.

Selling low-level gear in the Store barely affects the gameplay if at all. Except for crafting, low-level crafters do have their right to b**ch about it. What is bad was introducing the principle itself, which is hated with passion by many players of various online games - from Korean MMOs to the kriffing Farmville.

Let's say a new player donwloads and tries LOTRO. As soon as he's done with Intro he sees several pop-ups leading to the Store (and no, we don't really need more of those). He lurks around and sees that they sell gear in there. At that point he'll either say "There, saw that before in that other game, where you can't do squat without buying gear from money" and leave right away, recognize he doesn't have TP for it and keep playing (wise choice) or usher his card and buy "the best armor he could have!" Only in less than a week he will realize that armor gets replaced constantly and his money were essentially wasted. When I got to level 35 I realized how naive I have been, running around Bree Auction House, wasting all my silver on Sapphire shards so that people could craft me the best available armor. If that money was real, I would be a lot less happy about it.

Or let's say an experienced gamer wants to try LOTRO and asks his friends. They tell him Store sells Stat Tomes, LI legacies and Finesse scrolls - he has no idea what it is. But they tell him Store sells armor and he forms a picture in his head and doesn't feel like trying anymore, because he knows where that goes from other games where, again, without buying gear you can't do squat.

Regardless the existing players canceling the subs and leaving... well, you saw the number in that other thread. It was last straw for those people, and frankly, if not for that, they would get pissed enough over some next thing. But the matter is, people don't want to get associated with the "Games that sell gear" stigma. DDO and LOTRO both proved that F2P model isn't a bad thing on itself, but selling gear is that negative sign that many - MANY - will interpret as inevitable slide into the path where you MUST pay money to advance in content. That may not be the case - but that's how they perceive it.

What you can do? Best thing is to remove armor from Store, leaving it in game data and awarding it through lotteries or maybe even gift boxes.

Next best thing is to apologize (thanks for doing that) and do not add gear of higher Tiers and better stats. Let bought armor last into 30-ies and 40-ies and you'll have people running in that armor not for a week, but many months. Don't do that - folks will not like it AT ALL.

Or if you really want to fix low-level gear issue, add something valuable to those gear vendors existing in every major city up until Moria: currently the stuff they sell is never-ever-ever worth using anyway.

To compensate for removing armor, here are some other things you can ADD in Store, to which almost no-one will complain, trust me. And no, I won't post that in suggestion forum - read this thread if you want them.

1) Remove housing upkeep. Pay TP once, never spend gold on upkeep again. Should function only for personal houses, not Kinship ones.

2) Festival skills purchasable. You know about the "forced emotes" negative feedback, let people buy skills with TP if they really want them to bypass grind.

3) Cosmetic pets akin to Lore-Master ones. I know you talked about those last year, but we never saw them at live. I never saw any LMs running around in 21st Hall or Galtrev with cats, dogs or frogs - yet many other classes would love to RP with them. Let any class buy a "Summon cosmetic cat (or frog. or squrrel)" from Store.

4) Last, but not least: Content. Yes, that thing we all actually want to see. Design a new skirmish and sell it in a Store. Make a new region with dozens of quests and deeds and sell that quest pack in Store. Add a mini-cluster of 3 instances and sell that in the Store. Then see if anybody will complain about that AT ALL.

Originally Posted by Yosoff

Thanks for the reply, it is greatly appreciated and goes a long way to alleviated some concerns.

We still don't trust you though. The trust is going to have to be earned back over the long haul.

We appreciate that fact and all we ask is that you view this as the first step on that long haul.

Bravo, I applaud you for communicating the issues to us. It truly helps to know the reasoning behind your decisions, and the direction you are going. An earnest thank you.

Originally Posted by Moripopori

revampin, well, reanimatin the moors will b a difficult cause... after they re pretty much vast acres of dust atm... the pvp only players who have left, wont come back... so its about how to motivate those ,who had hardly been there before... server cluster? maybe? rewards an finally a rankin system that grants advantage? i hear the pve crowds protest... i fear its a little late to save the pvp content, alas its sad, i know quite manies the interested gamers... a good first step would b to make the moors all available for f2p...

That said, and sad as it may be, I still want a response. Because honestly, I think we deserve one.

Thank you Sapience, for actually posting about something a part of the community bothers, probably having spend quite some time on catching the right phrases for this.

I think that the lack of feedback from turbine is something giving way too much room to speculate (i know i do), so please feel free to post more

Originally Posted by Sapience

Hi everyone,

• What’s not a convenience?

Anything that’s compulsory to be competitive in ranked play or achieves something by degrading another player’s experience. We have not and will not make that part of our F2P offering.

Thats confirmation your removing selling creep skills in the store then? As this clearly contradicts your post and whats on offer in the shop. Needless to say there are many other hyprocritical statements throughout the post, not impressed in the slightest.

Thank you very much for the post, Sapience. I still hate the fact that gear with stats is being sold in the store, but at least it seems like the line is being drawn at some point.

Originally Posted by Sapience

We appreciate that fact and all we ask is that you view this as the first step on that long haul.

Words like those please me MUCH, but need to be backed by actions on the magnitude of "We are removing the exclusive store-relics and the stats tomes from the store" or "We are adding Tomes as rewards with substantial chances in instances chests and the old store-exclusive relics can now be crafted normally".

Otherwise, they are empty words.

hehe, crowds getn greedy now, dont ask too much lads n lassies...

I'll add my thanks here, Sapience-- this is a first step in the long road Turbine has ahead of them. However, along with others, there are still misgivings. Kudos for stating the realization that communication, clear and open communication, is needed; but what about internal comms?

Adam Mersky, with the title of Director of Digital Communications, stated in the interview with Massively end-game/raid gear won't be sold "at this time". You state here a pretty definitive "we will not sell end-game gear." Who is talking truth?

The two statements aren't compatible; don't even try to dress them up as such. If there is no clear internal communication apparent, why should this post of yours here be seen as such?

I very much appreciate that the concerns are being addressed.

Originally Posted by Sapience

• Turbine said that they would never sell gear in the store.

If we did, we apologize. We give a lot of interviews and talk to lots of people at tradeshows. Our official line is and has been that we don’t sell end-game gear. Could somebody have shaved that line in discussions with the press or had their quote summarized into a statement they didn’t intend? Absolutely. We’re not perfect. We’ve been very consistent with one message since announcing our move to F2P: We don’t sell end game gear, but we may introduce starter items or packs in the future like DDO. We’ve tried to be as open and straightforward as we can on this and other points.

Please read the above statement carefully. Turbine is NOT not going to sell armour. They are not NOT going to sell "packs". They are going to sell whatever is in DDO is coming to LOTRO.

"we don’t sell end-game gear" Other posters have already stomped on this one. They may not sell "armour" but their scrolls potions and tomes are all End-Game Gear.

I've already posted about their definition of "compulsory". Nothing in the game is compulsory so everything is open for the store.

Turbine has to show "actions" as well as "words". "we will monitor how it goes"... in other words "lets see if this works and we get their money back in the coffers".

Actions speak louder than words.

Well, the past few days, my kin and I have been looking for a new MMO because of this. But Sapience comes in and tells us, "Yes, we know you are pissed, but you know what, we're going to do it anyway. HAHAHA, WE ARE COUNTING THE CASH!" So now, we are all definitely leaving.

Four year customer, signing out.

I think the Massively article hit it on the head. ( http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/01...ible-currency/ )

Turbine has spent all of their credibility - you'll have to earn it back. This isn't really about Armorgate, the fact that relic removal scrolls are store only, or even saying something you know to be untrue.

It's the sense that you view as nothing more than moneysows, letting you suckle at our wallets.

And that's fine, companies aren't charities. However, companies can approach their customers with respect and humility. If you don't care about your customers, eventually they won't care about you.

Hopefully it's not too late to mend broken fences and actually do more than spew words at the mistrust and rancor.

Hi, my character is a tailor and I would love to craft more good lower level armour and make it avaible to my fellow players, but you don't have anything this nice for me to craft. Would it be possible to fix that please? Just add the recipe into the game and I'll go get it and start making these up.

(See I even asked nicely.)

Or is the idea not to have these available to players unless they choose to not support the in game economy at all?

Before anything else I do want to say thank you. THIS is exactly the kind of communication we want to have. WE can (and will as you shall see below) disagree about how things are and how things should be in the game but having this sort of dialogue means that at the very least all sides can better understand where each is coming from.

Originally Posted by Sapience

Why Starter Armor?
We monitor and report internally on many aspects of the game as we strive to tune the experience. Something that’s emerged over time is an increasing gap between low level and high level players. It’s an issue that many MMOs face as they reach maturity: With many players at or near cap, what happens to the game experience for those at lower levels?

Those of you who have been with the game since the beginning know that we have used a number of methods to adjust the game in an effort to help new players join the main community at the cap more quickly including XP adjustments, content changes, and itemization updates.

As part of our ongoing commitment to LOTRO we plan to continue to release meaningful expansions that add to the world on a regular basis. That commitment means that we are leaving some new players farther and farther behind the veteran community.

One of the things the F2P model brings to the table is the concept of player choice and multiple paths to a satisfying play experience. The model offers us the ability to address the specific needs of a tightly targeted player group, instead of making sweeping changes to the game systems, or broader content, that would impact all players.

We looked at progression and saw an analog to something we had witnessed before – in DDO. In that case we introduced low-level, but meaningful items into the game and saw that players who took that option progressed farther and stayed with the game longer. Based on this information and the trends from in-game, it seemed like the right time to try something similar for LOTRO.

In considering how to implement this decision, a simple choice needed to be made: Should we offer a piece of armor that was good for a set level range with the tradeoff that it may be a significant boost at the bottom of that level range or should we design a piece that was underpowered at the top of its range? To be safe, we erred on the side of being too generous in value, thinking that few could fault us for doing so.

I wanted to start with the entire summary of the issue at hand from your/Turbine's point of view because I think it distills down to two much more basic and easily expressed issues:

1) New players (and newly rolled alts) suffer an ever-widening immersion/experience gap between their gameplay and that of the majority of the playerbase who exist at or near the current level cap.

2) New players should be offered means to accelerate their advancement through this gap so that they can more quickly join the established end-game playerbase.


The first issue is, I think doubtless, we all can see that new player zones are not as rich as they once were, Angmar, the MM, Forochel...all are desolate compared to the number of players who populated those regions during the SoA days. Even Moria is underpopulated compared with the MoM or the SoM days. This is part of the natural growth of the game and it does leave large swaths of territory with reduced value but many fond memories.

We can almost certainly agree that this is an issue but statement two, that players should be accelerated through this by various means...well that is something I DISAGREE with heavily. Now I don't mean that ideas like rest XP, the Dreudh stone, XP boost sales int he stores, etc are a bad thing. Certainly players should be offered the opportunity if they want to breeze through lower levels of doing so and if they wish to expend R/L money in order to do so more quickly than a simple time grind I think we could all (or mostly) agree that this is a convenience of the exact sort which the store should be present to address.

The problem is that as a philosophy it provides a VERY narrow range of advancement ideas for the player. What I mean is that since the philosophical focus is on accelerating the player through lower levels towards the end cap it reduces the incentive to look at alternate means of bridging the experience/immersion gap. What is even worse is that the solution is already at hand...Evendim.

Once upon a time levels 30-40 were some of the toughest grind levels out there. Essentially from about that level players would have to either grind out widely dispersed quests out of the Trollshaws or do the same out of Esteldin or Evendim. Basically there were so many places to go that players naturally spread to all of them, diluted their density, and all had to grind through content without a lot of players nearby to help or who would be familiar with their issues. The Evendim revamp nullified that, now unless one has a masochistic streak (or is intentionally going for a particular RP reason) I would suspect the vast majority of toons spend the 30-40 period in Evendim ... and its great. There are solo quests sufficient to go through by yourself but there is also open world Fellowship and Instance Fellowship quests you can grab...and there are folks who want to do them since they are all on the same general path.

In other words the problem of players in the 30-40 range being spread all over, having to grind through the levels, and generally suffering through to the promise of the 40s was addressed not by offering store options or XP boosts, or short term gimmicks but by revamping the level range to provide a shared experience that would draw that player group together. I think a LOT of the issues with the immersion/experience gap could be much more readily addressed, AND more positively addressed by looking at the gameplay systems and environments in which the affected customers are operating rather than using the store as a band-aid...because right now that is what this armor is: a band-aid solution. It doesn't fundamentally change the ability to access group content at low levels, the ability to have an immersive experience, or the ability to enjoy the game it simply makes the existing content easier to complete.

I don't know if revamping crafting or looking at the starter zones, or revamping the mid-level zones (ND and TS I'm looking at you), or possibly even expanding the use of systems like IF can make the difference but I think many of us would be much happier if Turbine committed to looking at game systems FIRST and store band-aids SECOND.

Thank you for the response, Sapience. Your response showed honesty and a genuine interest and concern for the LOTRO community from you personally, and I for one appreciate that.

That said, many of your answers showed clear signs of being fluff pieces to assuage the crying masses on this forum. The addition of stat-granting armor to the store represented the final crossing of a very important line to many players, myself included. We remember the statement Turbine made to Massively two years ago that they would NOT sell statted gear in the store (source at the end of this post). That promise has been broken. We have been told several times over the years that a new PvMP area was coming. That promise has been broken. Now you (Turbine) tell us that you will not sell end-game gear in the store. Why should we believe you? At this point, there's really no reason not to sell it. People would pay real money to avoid the grind of attaining first-age weapons and raid gear, right? Why not? Regardless, as someone pointed out earlier, there is already end-game gear in the store, like stat tomes and relics and legacies and scrolls of empowerment and scrolls of relic removal and potions and damage reductions. The only line in the sand, the promise not to sell statted armor, is now gone. What rational, logical reason do we have to trust that you won't sell end-game raid gear in the future?

This aside, again echoing earlier posters, the selling of statted armor by its very nature goes against what many of us see as the spirit of this game. Farmville sells actual gear for actual money. Why does LOTRO think it should go that route, too? The store is great for cosmetics and emotes and steeds and other fluff items. The store is great for quest packs and instance clusters to allow the game to be F2P. The store is atrocious for creep-side skills, relics, scrolls, statted armor, and other things that have a crucial impact on the player community and economy. I want you guys to make money so the game can continue; I honestly, truly do. But breaking our trust and crossing a very important line are not the ways to do it.

I don't really care what actual effect this specific armor will have on gameplay; I care about the principle and the promises that have been made and broken in the recent past. On top of the absolute disaster that the RoI expansion was, this addition to store just further proves to me that Turbine and LOTRO are going in the wrong direction at a break-neck pace. I can only hope they slow down soon before they crash.

http://massively.joystiq.com/2010/07...-with-turbine/