Thread: Group healing (or healers) in danger of becoming a dying art?

Well of course it won't die completely, the title is somewhat exaggerated, but another thread related to rolling minnies got me to thinking on this one.

People have been stating that minnies have great DPS and still do amazing self heals etc etc. Yes they do and it's marvellous fun but I'm just wondering where the next generation of solid, competant group healers is going to come from? It's not all about the nature of the players but more the way levelling is so fast and easy with little or no need to group heavily until level cap (and only then if you really want to). Levelling minnies aren't getting the experience on how to group heal and it really is a skill and art that comes with experience. Timing, confidence, trust in your team all the marks of a capable healer.

Of course there have always been the DPS only minnies and there's nothing wrong with people playing exactly the way they wish, I've no gripe with them, but it does concern me that the good group healer will become more of a rarity.

What about the RKs you say? Yes this applies to them too but to a lesser extent (I have level 75 RK and am now working my 66 minnie towards level cap). RKs tended to favour DPS more strongly in numbers than healers but post RoI the RK has altered little in style whilst the minnie is a much changed beast. Minnie DPS has got such that I barely have to worry much over self heals let alone healing anyone else, I am amazed at how the minnie has altered.

The experienced old healing hands of minnies, RKs and even cappies already have the group heal knowhow in place no matter how their class changes but I wonder how those rolling new alts of "healing" classes will fare?

Very good points raised by OP.

I have a minnie on the go and his DPS for soloing is quite effective, but my experience in healing in groups is very lacking - and when I do join a group (normally from GlobalLFF) I am quite aprehensive each time I have to heal the group in instances.

I guess I must just get more experience under my belt, join more groups and explain before hand that my experience in healing is somewhat lacking.

I like group healing until I end up in a group with someone that thinks that I am their personal heal-bot. You know the type, the guy who starts screaming into his mic or pounding away on the keyboard that he needs heals as he fires away on too many high damage output mobs at once. The guy who obviously doesn't care about the rest of the group as long as HE lives.

Don't see the danger at all.
The same now and before, leveling mistrels had to focus on dps setup when playing solo.
If anybody wants to group content while leveling he will switch to heal now the same as he switched before.
And if he wants to reach the level cap without knowing how to heal, he would have probably had the same attitude if he did it long time ago.

This is quite interesting subject of discussion, as there are many variables affecting this matter.

First, we should distingish between the concepts of class and role. One character of certain Class, traited and geared correctly plus providing player's Know-How, may attempt to play a certain Role with more or less effectiveness.
Instances, or Encounters, require certain choreography to be played by certain roles (sometimes there are multiple possibilities) and have an inherent Difficulty that comes from the design of the encounter.
When the performance in their roles from the group is high enough to surpass the difficulty of the encounter, everything works. Otherwise, things can turn ugly.

Now, that is a very specific part of The Game. In the current state of LOTRO, there is a long way from character creation to challenging encounters because of several reasons:

• Leveling in the game is very fast. Usually a player can effortlessly get a level per day. This, joined with the scarcity of players in many servers makes very small the likelihood of enough players of the same level to group together to play a level-adequate Encounter.
• Encounters fix at levels <75 (Classic non-scalable instances) have less and less reasons to be played at the intended optimal level because of the point above, plus the rewards' value/effort ratio are questionable. That is, it's going to be much more effective to skip those encounters and get rewards from questing at later levels than to put a lot of effort on trying to get rewards from those Encounters. As a fast example, it's unlikely that the Dol Guldur instances are going to be farmed and mastered at level 65 when players can get better rewards faster by questing in Enedwaith or Dunland.
• By the two points above, soloing or questing is preferred and encouraged, and no grouping content is played most of the time. This reduced exposure to group content makes the player gain little or no Know-How about their class in a group environment.
• When questing/soloing, your character has no role to fulfill. The only possible answer to all quests that regard combat (possible 95% of the quests in this game) is to maximize the DPS/Survivavility factors. The fastest classes to level are those that provide higher scores for those two factors. In order to make all classes attractive, lately all of them are seeing themselves being refitted with extra DPS/Survivavility abilities, as there is no point to punish some classes in respect to others while questing or leveling. Of one class is easier to level than other, there is a high chance that class will be chosen more often than other classes that are slower or more painful to level with. It's not hard to find examples of this.
• When level cap has been reached, endgame finally starts. Questing is no longer the preferred activity (as it lacks purpose other than experiencing the storylines), and playing group Encounters becomes the focus of the game. At this point Roles are required and we find the following problematic:
  • The DPS role is well covered, as it's the only field that all players must learn to master in the way to level cap. Because of this, there is always going to be overabundance of DPS-role players around.
  • Support role, in the shape of Crowd Control, may have been trained in the way to cap by the players whose classes allow for it as it usually is part of their Survivavility. Buffing is more dependant on Gearing than on Know-How. Also this role (it both shapes of CC and Buffing) is not usually capital in all Encounters, so the problems derived of its scarcity are minimized.
  • Tanking is a role that depend quite a bit on the Know-How. This rol is not trained as much during leveling up. While soloing, threat has no meaning other than to keep important NPCs alive. Using each class' resources to reduce incoming damage is maybe learned as part of Survivavility, but it is mostly unneeded because quests are usually low difficulty and generic, not taylored for any specific class, in order to be able to reuse the same content for all players.
  • Healing is reduced to selfhealing during leveling, and maybe a bit of healing NPC with usually huge morale pools. Nothing is taught about healing threat, cost effective healing, or emergency heals during the entirety of the game. As the game adds more and more encounters, raising every time the difficulty of them, the survivavility of the group relies more and more on the Gearing, Traiting and Know-How of the healer roles. This pressure, joined with the almost absolute lack of previous training, is daunting to healer classes that just arrive to level cap, and usually prefer opting for performing the role they feel more confortable with, that is the only one everyone has been training since the begining: DPS.

We can look at every of those points looking for the problems. For each problem some solution can be attempted. However the cost of those solutions may be, in many cases, unaffordable by the devs.

I can only speak from personal experience, but I became a mini because I wanted to be the healer. I did go through the anxiety of group and raid healing for the first time after pretty much soloing my way to Moria, but that's just how the learning curve goes.

Although DPS is fun, I don't think people become minstrels to do it. Else they would be rks, or champs, or hunters. And even if in some cases they did, they will quickly learn when they show up in a group/raid no one wants to hear how much they can crit piercing cry for. Especially considering that this OP mini period is likely temporary and they will be nerfed in short order.

I can only surmise, but I think the group healer role is safe, at least as far as minstrels are concerned. RKs are a different story.

I don't think that you need to worry for that. Endgame content will train them. What exactly is a high lvl mini supposed to do at cap? I can give you an example. I had a lvl 6 guard since launch. He was my farmer and was happily parked at Hobbiton. A couple of months ago I decided to take him to lvl 20 for a horse. Instead I ended up rushing him to 75. No group action, just solo to the cap. What now?

I have an ill traited, half dressed guard that has no idea how to act in a group. Either I park him again or I spend some time reading about guards, go back grinding for traits and shyly try him in small and easy group content. I chose the later and in some time I hope that he ends up as a decent guard. I bet it is the same story with minis (and all the other classes I guess).

The same can be said about the other classes with a clearly defined role: the guard and warden. Holding aggro, keeping yourself alive, watching for all the cues that a boss gives when an attack is imminent - are all missing from the solo leveling experience.

Even the dps classes have a bit to learn, namely how to focus fire and how to manage aggro, as well as their support skills.

Grouping opportunities exist as one levels, but whether anyone takes the time to do them is a big question (I know I usually don't), much less end up in a group with someone who will take the time to teach some basics.

Originally Posted by Erlindur

I don't think that you need to worry for that. Endgame content will train them. What exactly is a high lvl mini supposed to do at cap? I can give you an example. I had a lvl 6 guard since launch. He was my farmer and was happily parked at Hobbiton. A couple of months ago I decided to take him to lvl 20 for a horse. Instead I ended up rushing him to 75. No group action, just solo to the cap. What now?

I have an ill traited, half dressed guard that has no idea how to act in a group. Either I park him again or I spend some time reading about guards, go back grinding for traits and shyly try him in small and easy group content. I chose the later and in some time I hope that he ends up as a decent guard. I bet it is the same story with minis (and all the other classes I guess).

Yeah, but... why bother rushing him to 75? You could've stopped along the way to do GB or GA or Moria instances or whatever to practice grouping skills. My guy could've easily hit 75 months ago, but I'm doing all the instances along the way and learning a lot about group play. I don't need endgame content to train me, I've picked it up as I go.

Originally Posted by Vilan

Yeah, but... why bother rushing him to 75?

Because I needed to be level 75 to get the unique armour pieces from Dunland for all of my characters?

While running moria instances with my RK I sometimes got the feeling that there are no minis in this game at all.

"Hey RK can you trait for heals..?" Well, off to the bard I go :P

I'm a happily healing mini, who loves to do the dps when soloing, but primarily heal when I'm in a group.

What does not make me happy is groups who want a healbot, don't protect me from damage and interrupts, and run around spread out all over the place so I can't properly heal them, then say "WHERE ARE MY HEALZ??????".

You want happy healing classes? Try remembering the people behind there are not NPC healbots.

Also, pro-tip, sending me a blind fellowship invite is not the way to bring a happy healer into your group. Nor is going "we have a slot in a raid, and you fit the bill" when we have spoken in game precisely once...

Cranky healer, signing off.

P.S., learning to heal a group takes practice, like everything else. If anyone on the Gladden server wants some practice and pointers, I'll be happy to help arrange either. We do need more happy healers in this game.

Simple supply and demand. These things have a way of balancing out in the end.

Originally Posted by Bel-Astarte

I'm a happily healing mini, who loves to do the dps when soloing, but primarily heal when I'm in a group.

What does not make me happy is groups who want a healbot, don't protect me from damage and interrupts, and run around spread out all over the place so I can't properly heal them, then say "WHERE ARE MY HEALZ??????".

You want happy healing classes? Try remembering the people behind there are not NPC healbots.

Also, pro-tip, sending me a blind fellowship invite is not the way to bring a happy healer into your group. Nor is going "we have a slot in a raid, and you fit the bill" when we have spoken in game precisely once...

Cranky healer, signing off.

P.S., learning to heal a group takes practice, like everything else. If anyone on the Gladden server wants some practice and pointers, I'll be happy to help arrange either. We do need more happy healers in this game.

Yeah, this stuff. My primary role is group healing -- 75 Mini, RK, and Cappy on one server, and a levelling Mini on another. I can do the DPS well enough, but my focus is healing...but when I pug I always try to snag the dps role, because nothing is as frustrating as getting blamed for not healing people who make it impossible to heal them.

There are healers out there -- but most that I know have settled into kins or friend groups and are in demand enough that they don't need to deal with unknown risks. I do agree that the ongoing focus on DPS for these classes is going to result in more minis but fewer group healers.

Many minstrels reach the lvl cap and basically havent ever really done any sort of healing so some would find it difficult to find there feet healing in a fellowship especaily some groups where folk care little of aggro etc and think mins should be able to heal them no matter the damage they take . For me minstrels will always be the main healers in FS and raids yeah there dps is nice now but when compared to hunters/champs forget it they will be the healers unless turbine decide to go down the road of every class can heal+dps etc .

Originally Posted by Catburg

... Levelling minnies aren't getting the experience on how to group heal and it really is a skill and art that comes with experience. ...

There is no general functional or "experience" difference between a healer that spent healing X amount Quest instances or X amount end game instances. The learning curve to learn "instancing" (for all classes) may be dragged over more levels now, the end result will be the same.

Originally Posted by Vilan

Yeah, but... why bother rushing him to 75? You could've stopped along the way to do GB or GA or Moria instances or whatever to practice grouping skills. My guy could've easily hit 75 months ago, but I'm doing all the instances along the way and learning a lot about group play. I don't need endgame content to train me, I've picked it up as I go.

It doesn't matter. For me, it was the sixth alt to pass moria and I was bored. For a new player may be shyness, ignorance or whatever. My point was that once you reach endgame, you can either spent your time soloing stuff (and your playstyle doen't bother anyone) or you are forced to group and start learning your class.

Originally Posted by Okokdir

Because I needed to be level 75 to get the unique armour pieces from Dunland for all of my characters?

Or why does someone may need a farmer alt and how on earth can you combine apples with cheese

My minstrel is a dedicated healer. Mind you, the only character she gets to heal is one of whh's Hunters ... we duo a lot. It took me months to figure out the new minstrel attacks, and I seldom use them. I could go into War-Speech and use those skills, but I dislike soloing; I am a wimpy Hobbit minstrel.

I've seldom played with a larger group, because I have had too many deaths (in assorted games) from fighters who assume that OF COURSE I am as tough as they are, and allow me to get ganked by some mob sneaking up behind, while the fighters are busy slaughtering the ones in front.

It would be interesting to play in a larger group ... I used to do that with weekly repeatable quests in AC2. But the people I played with were all in my allegiance, and *knew* I was no fighter. I would have to find a group I could trust, and I don't know how that could be arranged. My current kinship is tiny and we're all crafters.

/shrug

I like healing. I wish I could do it more often.

From my point of view group healing is the Minstrel/RK equivalent of learning to play your class correctly. Group healing is not so much a dying art as an art few seem to take up seriously. But the same can be said of all classes. The art that is "dying" isn't so much Group Healing as Group Play. Solo play vs Group play are very different styles. If players in group are constantly making demands of the Healer to "Heal Me", or of a guard to tank better, then that individual is the problem, not the other class.

It's far too easy to get to level cap concentrating on solo play. A quick gauge to see if a healer (or any class for that matter) takes their role seriously is to take a peek at their virtues. Any class at 75 whose Virtues are in the 6/7/8 range has likely power leveled with little group experience.

Regarding Heal-bot. As a Hunter I can easily focus on one target or rapid fire ranged AOE. And in either case I'm well aware that I can suddenly be overwhelmed and dead in an instant. It's not my job to go running to the Healer. Nor is it the Healers responsibility to switch to me.

In a group there is a dynamic and everyone has to know his/her part. I've been in groups where I've been teamed up with tanks that no matter what they do I pull aggro from one or more mobs. And I've been in groups where no matter how hard I hit, the tanks NEVER lose aggro. For a hunter (me at least) there is no greater fun than going all out DPS and not pull a single mob.

If I do happen to pull mobs from the tank it's now my job to either kill off the offending mob or bring him back to tank range and lighten up on the DPS. It's still not the job of the mini to stray from the main tanks or for tanks to go run/chase after a mob I pulled. That's how I see it.

If you're getting hammered, take the time to analyze the situation and see what's happening and alter your play style. You may well have a healer that is inexperienced, or you may have a weak tank, or maybe you have a champ or hunter that breaks key mezzes, or maybe you have a LM that tries to mezz something in the middle of a tight AOE pack. This is what happens when there is no plan and little communication.

There are enough legitimate reasons for a group to fail, but not understanding group play should not be one of them.

Originally Posted by fnostro

Regarding Heal-bot. As a Hunter I can easily focus on one target or rapid fire ranged AOE. And in either case I'm well aware that I can suddenly be overwhelmed and dead in an instant. It's not my job to go running to the Healer. Nor is it the Healers responsibility to switch to me.

Try, if possible, to stay within the Healer's range. S/he can't heal you if you're too far away. I don't play Hunters worth a darn, but perhaps if you stand within the Healer's range and pull the mobs toward you (ideally, one at a time ), you can shoot things and still get healed.

Personally, when I'm healing a group (and as I said upthread, I don't do that often), I keep my eyes glued to the Morale bars of everyone in the group, and if one of them is looking low, I hit the appropriate button -- from F2 to F6 -- and try to heal before he calls for help.

--Dhuoda, timid squishy Hobbit alt of

Originally Posted by djheydt

Try, if possible, to stay within the Healer's range. S/he can't heal you if you're too far away. I don't play Hunters worth a darn, but perhaps if you stand within the Healer's range and pull the mobs toward you (ideally, one at a time ), you can shoot things and still get healed.

Personally, when I'm healing a group (and as I said upthread, I don't do that often), I keep my eyes glued to the Morale bars of everyone in the group, and if one of them is looking low, I hit the appropriate button -- from F2 to F6 -- and try to heal before he calls for help.

--Dhuoda, timid squishy Hobbit alt of

um..thanks??

I'm well aware of HOW to play my role... I'm just trying to give examples of solo play mistakes in group play

Regarding group healing...in my experience a good healer does indeed monitor morale bars, and I fully expect that I will be healed in time, but only if doing so doesn't risk the bigger plan of completing the current exchange. In any case, I would never blame the healer for not healing me especially if I do something stupid.

In fact, given the scarcity of healers, I would never blame a healer for anything

Originally Posted by fnostro

Regarding group healing...in my experience a good healer does indeed monitor morale bars, and I fully expect that I will be healed in time, but only if doing so doesn't risk the bigger plan of completing the current exchange. In any case, I would never blame the healer for not healing me especially if I do something stupid.

This!!!!

I joke that I get lost in most instances even after playing them, because for the most part I'm following tank butt and watching morale bars-who has a chance to see WHERE the next turn comes?

I cant see anyone really rolling a mini for DPS in group pve play. There are better options still, and frankly more fun options for group dps play.

If its your first toon you might have issues, but really by the 2-3-4th you have most of the game mechanic thing worked out. Even if you never hit a green button till 75, just start healing the lesser contant t1 3 mans, then skirm raids, then t2 , then the raids.

In a few weeks, you either figure it out, or you better move on.

Sure any group may not know where to stand for the healer, but thats also the healers role to call out. My job is to heal, so I do that, even the aggro magnets, the first few times. I usually send a private tell to tank, to tell player XXXXXX to cut out the full bore dps and allow tank to pick up aggro. If he continues to do that, I will eventually call it out in the screen, if he is uppity about it and says its neither his job to tank or to heal, to do mine, My next option to group would be either, find a new healer or another hunter.. I can tell you how many times I wouldve been sent packing would be less then .5% of the time, and thats usually becuase another friend of someone is in group.

Frankly , I dont know why poeple pull so much aggro, even on my hunter, I just start our slow and build up. Sure if you are hitting swift bow, with precision shot twice and getting off 7k damage in 3 seconds I can see that, but heck man, start with a few arrow bleeds instead! Give the tank a second or two.

I CAN however see people rolling up a MINI dps for da Moors and never healing groups, but heck, thats more becuase they broke minis in the moors and made them little mini gods able to take on 2-3 creeps or more at all times.

Minis are a blast, I love pulling like 5-6 smiths in the forges instances with another 3-4 slaves and running around and killing them all. With around 8k power you can do some amazing things with the mini. But Honestly, in a group, I prefer dpsing with the hunter, rk, champ , lm even.

Originally Posted by Vandervahn

There is no general functional or "experience" difference between a healer that spent healing X amount Quest instances or X amount end game instances. The learning curve to learn "instancing" (for all classes) may be dragged over more levels now, the end result will be the same.

But the problem is more healers are reaching these big endgame instances now with zero experience healing a group. I got my mini to 50 about a week before Moria launched back in the day, and by that point I had already healed probably 10-15 full fellowship quests. Then within a week I had healed the original sch/lib and the Forgotten Treasury, so by the time I reached the endgame instances at 60, I was well prepared to heal the group competently. But if I had been forced to learn how to heal a group in DD or 16th hall or DN, with no previous experience, I probably would have gotten incredibly frustrated and might have given up. It's a skill, and one that takes a lot of practice. I didn't have to worry about much on my champ or my hunter, other then learning to wait for the tank to have solid aggro before unleashing, but the same isn't true for group healing. You have to learn how your skills complement one another, what situation requires which heal, how bad it has to be before you pop triumphant spirit, etc. There are a lot of nuances to group healing that take time and patience to learn, and group questing pre-cap gave a tremendous leg up in this process.

But now, how is that even possible? I rolled a burg just before RoI launched, and I discovered that pretty much all full fellowship quests are gone. 1.11, Weathertop, Goblin Leader, Elders beneath the Ruins, the LL Dourhands, all of them are solo now. Even book two can be done solo now. These were the places where my kin and I laid the groundwork for understanding our classes and how to play as a team. What's left? I guess GA, but I haven't seen anyone LFF for that in months. I haven't seen a Fornost group in probably 2 years. Dol Dinen would just be more of an annoyance since the Evendim revamp allows you to just barrel on through those mid-levels. The 50 instances are only used by capped players for deeds/class items. RoI sealed the coffin on the Moria and DG instances. So there is really no viable way for an up-and-coming healer to learn how to heal.

I've rambled a lot, so I'll leave you with this. I've been a mini for years, but I rolled an RK for fun to be another healer. I made it all the way to 58 without healing a single group instance (not by choice, just because there weren't any for me to heal). When I finally did do my first GS run as the main healer, we wiped numerous times because of me. I had healed that run probably 300 times on my minstrel, but here I was wiping the group because of my inability to heal. RK heals are such a different beast, and I had absolutely no practice healing with it before those big instances, and I got frustrated and shelved the RK. Practicing as you go is key to understanding your class's role and skills, and that ability seems to have been taken out of the game. I think that's a crying shame.

Correction, the epic instances you mentioned CAN be soloed now-I've done them solo, and I've done them grouped.

Retake Weathertop in particular my kin has gotten groups together to run and it's been a great experience. As we've leveled up we're attempting Annuminas, and I hope soon, Fornost. I expect it will happen as long as it is fun for our kinnies to do it, and it's a pretty fun group, if I do say so myself. /bias

If there are only two people on who can do it, I usually advise them to split and solo it, but if we can get a group together, we do-including folks repeating the instance.

I know it's popular to bemoan the soloification of the game, but the fact is that what makes people want to continue grouping is a fun group experience previously.

So, let's talk about ways to do that, rather than the perpetual gnashing of teeth about how much better things were in the good old pre-F2P days.

Originally Posted by djheydt

--Dhuoda, timid squishy Hobbit alt of

Bwoa-ha-ha... *puts hobbit's name on friends list so she can look out for for said hobbit*

[big wink]

Someone else stated that this is a problem for all classes. I know it's the situation I find myself in with my guardian. Without just really pushing to get her in groups, she doesn't get the chance to group-tank very often. And tanking is an important role--it's not one I want to get into for some of the content without more practice.

I think there needs to be some type of group play classroom type requirement that all players MUST pass through, say every 15 to 20 levels, if they want to have a chance to earn end game high end raid loot.

It make no sense to me to play an MMO solo and then expect to earn raid gear and weapons when you prefer solo content. Make it a deed or something that requires group play for group gear.

Or, you know, the server community could organize to set up opportunities for folk to learn grouping. I'm intrigued by that possibility, myself.

Originally Posted by fnostro

I think there needs to be some type of group play classroom type requirement that all players MUST pass through, say every 15 to 20 levels, if they want to have a chance to earn end game high end raid loot.

It make no sense to me to play an MMO solo and then expect to earn raid gear and weapons when you prefer solo content. Make it a deed or something that requires group play for group gear.

I just finished leveling up a lm and I found the instance finder to be a good way of getting into groups. Its not perfect but its better then nothing. Just put in the request when you log on and start doing your quests. Once there are enough people to make a group just go to a safe place and thats it.

I do agree its important to do groups as you level up because you learn how to use the group skills one at a time instead of all at once. Lots of people dont know what some of thier skills do because they have never used them while soloing.

Originally Posted by Bel-Astarte

Correction, the epic instances you mentioned CAN be soloed now-I've done them solo, and I've done them grouped.

Retake Weathertop in particular my kin has gotten groups together to run and it's been a great experience. As we've leveled up we're attempting Annuminas, and I hope soon, Fornost. I expect it will happen as long as it is fun for our kinnies to do it, and it's a pretty fun group, if I do say so myself. /bias

If there are only two people on who can do it, I usually advise them to split and solo it, but if we can get a group together, we do-including folks repeating the instance.

I know it's popular to bemoan the soloification of the game, but the fact is that what makes people want to continue grouping is a fun group experience previously.

So, let's talk about ways to do that, rather than the perpetual gnashing of teeth about how much better things were in the good old pre-F2P days.

Oh yes, the quests and instances that have been soloified can still be done in a group. The problem is finding a group that actually want to do the quest/instance -- and whom you trust not to let you get killed.

Originally Posted by ThistleRose3

I just finished leveling up a lm and I found the instance finder to be a good way of getting into groups. Its not perfect but its better then nothing. Just put in the request when you log on and start doing your quests. Once there are enough people to make a group just go to a safe place and thats it.

I do agree its important to do groups as you level up because you learn how to use the group skills one at a time instead of all at once. Lots of people dont know what some of thier skills do because they have never used them while soloing.

Gosh, I think you are the first person I've seen who actually likes the instance finder. The thought of it terrifies me, because one risks being slammed into an unknown instance with a lot of strangers who don't realize that minstrels are squishy.

Originally Posted by djheydt

Oh yes, the quests and instances that have been soloified can still be done in a group. The problem is finding a group that actually want to do the quest/instance -- and whom you trust not to let you get killed.

If your not willing to die while the group learns how to do the instance you should not be doing group content. You can not expect everyone to be perfect thier first time in an instance. This is why a lot of people are not willing to group. One mistake and people jump all over you.

If you have done any raiding with a raiding kinship that is learning a new instance you would be aware that many times they spend hours each day dieing over and over again. Trying different ways of handling each set of mobs. Dieing is going to happen in groups.

Gosh, I think you are the first person I've seen who actually likes the instance finder. The thought of it terrifies me, because one risks being slammed into an unknown instance with a lot of strangers who don't realize that minstrels are squishy.

Minis are not that squishy. You should be able to take a few hits from trash mobs. If not you need to work on your mitigations and armor. Based on what you have said it doesnt sound like grouping with people that you dont know isnt your thing. Thats find but that doesnt mean others can not do it successfully.

Interestingly enough I leveled a RK specifically to be a healer and I found that largely I was unwanted as a healer so I've pretty much scraped him for now. I don't know if it's a dying art but the fact that many people who play the healing classes in this game refuse to heal. There must be enough minis that do heal though since a dedicated RK healer is pretty much unwanted.

Originally Posted by Jeffor

Interestingly enough I leveled a RK specifically to be a healer and I found that largely I was unwanted as a healer so I've pretty much scraped him for now. I don't know if it's a dying art but the fact that many people who play the healing classes in this game refuse to heal. There must be enough minis that do heal though since a dedicated RK healer is pretty much unwanted.

Most of that line of thinking, again, has to do with players taking the time to learn their class fully. This also has to do with adjusting that adverse reaction of players not wanting RK healers. It's simple ignorance. I've been in groups with nothing but RK healers and everything went well.

Minstrels can correct me here, but in my experience a properly traited/virtued RK is every bit as good a healer as a Minstrels in group situations. Maybe in an all out healing war Mini's may out heal RK's but that's not the issue is it? It's what does a player with an RK have to do to properly play a healer in raid/fellowship situations. It's not that it can't be done but that it seems so few take the time to learn how.

Originally Posted by fnostro

Most of that line of thinking, again, has to do with players taking the time to learn their class fully. This also has to do with adjusting that adverse reaction of players not wanting RK healers. It's simple ignorance. I've been in groups with nothing but RK healers and everything went well.

Minstrels can correct me here, but in my experience a properly traited/virtued RK is every bit as good a healer as a Minstrels in group situations. Maybe in an all out healing war Mini's may out heal RK's but that's not the issue is it? It's what does a player with an RK have to do to properly play a healer in raid/fellowship situations. It's not that it can't be done but that it seems so few take the time to learn how.

100% agreement from me.

Rks are extremely capable healers in my experience, if they take time to learn their class. They heal differently, which I love as I'm a bit of an altoholic (Hi, LilyRose!). However, it can also lead to some confusion as to expectations for those who don't know the class and what it's capable of.

Folks who refuse to consider RKs a healing class are showing their ig'nance. And ig'nance is an ugly, ugly thing.

Originally Posted by Bel-Astarte

100% agreement from me.

Rks are extremely capable healers in my experience, if they take time to learn their class. They heal differently, which I love as I'm a bit of an altoholic (Hi, LilyRose!). However, it can also lead to some confusion as to expectations for those who don't know the class and what it's capable of.

Folks who refuse to consider RKs a healing class are showing their ig'nance. And ig'nance is an ugly, ugly thing.

Well, I tried an RK once. She DIED, Jim. I could not switch from healing mode to fighting mode and vice versa fast enough, and I couldn't get her out of Ered Luin. I would have happily made her a healer only, but ... I was playing her solo, because whh was busy leveling his new Warden and I had to work alone. And I couldn't kill, nor survive attacks from, the itty bitty wimpy goblins outside Sarnur ... let along anywhere near inside it. I know many people play RKs very efficiently ... but I couldn't do it.

So, I'm curious are you worried minstrels will not heal because they can defend themselves and solo and are not crippled little critters who must be escorted from place to place by tanks in every facet of their MMO life?

I could be wrong but that's sort of where you coming off like here. I love to heal, I also love not being completely unable to do anything but group and be protected by others. It frankly makes minstrels(and runekeepers) a lot more fun to play than the healing classes I have played in previous games. Being able to solo doesn't mean the minstrel don't know how to heal or that they don't want to heal. The folks who want to damage and want to do both are still going to be much more attracted to RK damage.

Originally Posted by ThistleRose3

If your not willing to die while the group learns how to do the instance you should not be doing group content.

And I don't. I don't have a group to group with; my kinship is tiny and consists mostly of crafters.

If you have done any raiding with a raiding kinship that is learning a new instance you would be aware that many times they spend hours each day dieing over and over again. Trying different ways of handling each set of mobs. Dieing is going to happen in groups.

I'm sure you are right. I've never done a raid, I don't know any raiding kinships.

Minis are not that squishy.

Mine is. She is level 75, has level 75 armour, and all her Virtues are at twelve. But ...

I took her out to the Pit of Iron today, to see if I could solo it. I nearly did, too; only died once when I was attacked by a superior force of two Orcs.

You should be able to take a few hits from trash mobs. If not you need to work on your mitigations and armor. Based on what you have said it doesnt sound like grouping with people that you dont know isnt your thing. Thats fine but that doesnt mean others can not do it successfully.

Of course. Clearly they can, and do. But my limited experience with groups is that I die and die and die and the rest of them don't, and I think it's partly that the fighters expect me to be as tough as they are, and to be able to kill anything that attacks me. Which is not the case unless I go into War-speech, in which case I have some more attacks but I can't heal anyone except me, which defeats the purpose of the exercise.

Hitting the over 40 mark, I'm a bit afraid to heal groups in my range, since I lack proper traits (The healing ones are really hard to get...), and I have to buy slots above the two default ones I get.

Though I do want to heal, leveling up just doesn't really support healing as much. Quite a shame.

Interesting thread,

For me I started to roll my Mini pre-Isen, so it was always intended to help out the kin and healer was to be his primary role.

Seems like there are 2 main lines of argument here:

1) healers are not getting enough experience healing in a group format because of the Isen changes and there increased dps/surviability

2)healers are not getting enough experience healing in a group format because of the rapid leveling.


Both points are interrelated imo, and both have there pros and cons. As per the 1st point, pros could be that we can now level ourselves, not having to rely on other classes to use us "when they feel they need to" and thus the potential for more high level minis. I never had much experience on my mini pre-isen, but from talking to kinmates lvling a mini was much harder prior to the changes. However, as was mentioned numerous times, being able to solo more gives you less incentive to pair up for smaller instances, quests or w/e.

2nd point - obviously related to the 1st. Hmmm, i think this could be the overall issue (and not just for minis) as it seems like the goal is just to reach level cap for a lot of players, rather than take your time, explore the world of middle earth and enjoy the content. I could understand if this is your 3rd or 4th toon, as you've seen it all type thing, but still - unless your rolling the mini purely for DPS/solo role take the time to join groups and learn some of the core basics of what the class is about - the heals

Also - point 2 relates to ALL CLASSES, especially in group format. Like Kalel4 said, if others dont start instances or groups, then we really have no way to learn to heal, and other class similarly have no understanding of their roles in a group.

1 last thing - a guide for group healing would be nice as well. We have some nice minstrel guides that explain skills and such, but whenever I look up an instance on wiki or w/e, under minstrel it just says "healer - just keep healing". Definitley more to that imo:

1)who should be your primary focus? (for w/e reason - poor organization, a tough area of an instance, squishy group, or some idiot - your gonna run into a spot where someone is gonna go down, so how to decide)

2)the cost/benefits of certain heals? (some heals are quick but cost more, some have longer induction times but heal more, some heals benifit the group, others are for a single target - need to be aware of this. Also be aware of alternative forms, noble cause+heralds strike, anthem of the free peoples,ect)

3)what anthem to use and when? (Definitely understand anthem/coda use, when a group could use increased damage, resistence, armour, icmr, reduced threat)

4)Our wide variety of other skills - call to greatness, song of aid, fear, mez ect. These skills are overlooked a lot.

5)dealing with different combinations of classes in a group? (we all cant be fortunate to have that ideal assortment of classes for every instance, and this should factor in all the decisions you make).


Sorry this post just refers to minstrels - never played a RK, but agree they are an under-utilized heal class - I love having the huge AOE HoTs of RK heals in a group or raid..... when they want to heal.