Thread: Updated maps

I was walking around the archet area today, and noticed that there was a shiny new version of the map for that area. At least I hadn't noticed it before.



I was wondering if there were any other areas where the maps are updated like this? It's kinda nice actually.

Wow that does look really good, maybe Thorin's Hall has been updated too? Maybe you don't remember but the Barrow-Down's map was changed into two parts which are also well detailed, but that happened a while ago.

I actually hope they don't do this. While I don't have much to say against the new map style, it's a tad shiny for my taste to fit Middle Earth. The old maps, while somewhat less pretty, have become really atmospheric to me as I level my first toons towards that magical 75. They remind me of the hand drawn maps in the books, and therefore make me feel right at home.

Well! This is very nice. Thank you, Turbine. Will there be more?

Originally Posted by plothole

I actually hope they don't do this. While I don't have much to say against the new map style, it's a tad shiny for my taste to fit Middle Earth. The old maps, while somewhat less pretty, have become really atmospheric to me as I level my first toons towards that magical 75. They remind me of the hand drawn maps in the books, and therefore make me feel right at home.

This. I like the old "worn" style.


Anyway this is another undocumented change. Why the hell do they even bother publishing any patch notes when half the stuff is not there???

Are you serious? This looks awesome!

Originally Posted by The-Walrus

Anyway this is another undocumented change. Why the hell do they even bother publishing any patch notes when half the stuff is not there???

Because the patch notes cover gameplay updates?

Anyway, great map.

Originally Posted by Reniannen

Because the patch notes cover gameplay updates?

Anyway, great map.

No, patch notes are supposed to tell the customers about ALL changes to the product.

Anyway yes the map does look nice but me myself (and some others) like the old way.

From what I have seen, they don't include everything in the patch notes.

Besides this map, I have also noticed other changes, since the last patch. For example, there is now a hobbit (Master of Appertiences) at Saeredan's cabin in Bree-land. Guess he got lonely?

Originally Posted by Lythia

From what I have seen, they don't include everything in the patch notes

Unfortunately

I love the new map & wish they all were like this. Very nice indeed

Originally Posted by Lythia

From what I have seen, they don't include everything in the patch notes.

Besides this map, I have also noticed other changes, since the last patch. For example, there is now a hobbit (Master of Appertiences) at Saeredan's cabin in Bree-land. Guess he got lonely?

I just saw this & for the life of me don't know why they put that kind of NPC there. Strange....

Originally Posted by The-Walrus

No, patch notes are supposed to tell the customers about ALL changes to the product. ...

Originally Posted by Lythia

From what I have seen, they don't include everything in the patch notes. ...

Patch notes usually only cover changes that directly affect gameplay, or higher-profile issues. This is the norm in other games as well. Not saying it is good that way, but simply the norm and hence nothing to note particularly.

Well its nice new map but... in my opinion as long as they dont put enought work force into creating new content I am AGAINST wasting Turbine resources on improving something that isnt even broken.

Originally Posted by plothole

I actually hope they don't do this. While I don't have much to say against the new map style, it's a tad shiny for my taste to fit Middle Earth. The old maps, while somewhat less pretty, have become really atmospheric to me as I level my first toons towards that magical 75. They remind me of the hand drawn maps in the books, and therefore make me feel right at home.

I like also the old one more than the new.

Originally Posted by Lythia

From what I have seen, they don't include everything in the patch notes.

Besides this map, I have also noticed other changes, since the last patch. For example, there is now a hobbit (Master of Appertiences) at Saeredan's cabin in Bree-land. Guess he got lonely?

I sent a bugreport for Rhidden the strayed Hobbit, I think this was his Name

In the Bonevales the entrance of the cairns look more realistic, like there's a way inside.

When RoI launched, I thought to myself that there was a very distinct difference in design between the RoI maps, and some of the earlier maps. Compare;




The new Archet map is very similar to the Dunland map in design. Perhaps they intend to revisit all maps and bring them all under one consistent design-scheme, Archet being the first one?

A bit too cartoonish for my taste. If they really felt the need for updating maps, I would have hoped they moved more towards Christopher Tolkien's style of drawing.

The new style looks really nice by itself BUT doesn't feel like a MAP at all. That kind of map the original ones are trying to resemble anyway :P

Thanks, now I have to set my coffee cup on my screen so I can get the coffee-stained map back!

I like the new map design. The old stuff always seemed sorta... blurry and trickier to use accurately.

As far as the Archet map resdesign goes, definitely improvement IMO.

P.S. I don't think 'cartoony' is really the right word for them, although equally I have no idea what is.

Hmm, I'm also preferring the old hand-drawn look of the maps over the updated version.

On another note, I took my not so little guardian through the starter quests for Dol Dinen. There is one quest (from Alphlanc?) to take marks from the Tarkrip archers. One of them always stood by himself in front of some rocks close to the eastern road and was an easy pull even for squishier classes. Imagine my surprise when this time he yelled an alarm and two of those beefy orcs came to his aid. Still not much of a problem for a hobbit proudly wearing her sparkly new self-forged heavy armor but if I had been on the minstrel or runekeeper I would have run like hell.
Is that another change as well? I can't remember ever encountering re-inforcements there before.

Originally Posted by The-Walrus

No, patch notes are supposed to tell the customers about ALL changes to the product.

It is not possible to do what you are asking. It does not exist internally anywhere I worked as a software developer. I've seen some of the Turbine development comments passed straight into public patch notes. Developers often do not spend a lot of time when they submit code explaining what they are changing or fixing. You get stuff like 'fixed multiple bugs". Changed how feature x works. You want complete patch notes. You have to take the 20 -100 pages of brain dump from the software submissions. Start asking the developers and QA. Look up all the bug reports and feature requests. Root thru all the meeting notes and emails. A lot of stuff will not be documented. It is done verbally.

You end up with:

1) There is no single person that knows everything that changed.

2) The changes are scattered in multiple databases, emails and documents.

3) Not all the changes are written down. The only way you can find them is via source code compare. Try to figure out differences mean.

4) Some stuff you do not want to tell a customer. Each company has its rules on what should black listed. Turbine will not list any new content. Turbine wants us to experience the fun of finding it. Some systems are secret. They are not going to tell anything about updates to the hate and aggro system unless it is very vague.

Some of the changes are clutter. Who really cares that a developmer changed a floating bee hive so that is now on the ground? Other than the customer that wrote the bug report.

When Gandalf visited Bilbo at his house at the start of the Fellowship movie, while Bilbo was getting Gandalf some tea Gandalf was looking at the books and scrolls on the table. Those old style, yellowed, crinkly maps beautifully hand drawn by Bilbo set the tone of the sense of history and grandeur. If they were drawn in this new cartoonish style people would probably have asked what the heck...

Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty

1) There is no single person that knows everything that changed.

2) The changes are scattered in multiple databases, emails and documents.

3) Not all the changes are written down. The only way you can find them is via source code compare. Try to figure out differences mean.

4) Some stuff you do not want to tell a customer. Each company has its rules on what should black listed. Turbine will not list any new content. Turbine wants us to experience the fun of finding it. Some systems are secret. They are not going to tell anything about updates to the hate and aggro system unless it is very vague.

Some of the changes are clutter. Who really cares that a developmer changed a floating bee hive so that is now on the ground? Other than the customer that wrote the bug report.

If a car manufacturer said/did that, they'd be in for a class-action lawsuit. If my car was recalled, refurbished and returned to me, I would expect a complete and detailed report on what was wrong, what changed, and what's new.

While I understand that a Software Development Company is not a Car Manufacturer, paying customers are universal.

Originally Posted by West-northwestook

Hmm, I'm also preferring the old hand-drawn look of the maps over the updated version.

On another note, I took my not so little guardian through the starter quests for Dol Dinen. There is one quest (from Alphlanc?) to take marks from the Tarkrip archers. One of them always stood by himself in front of some rocks close to the eastern road and was an easy pull even for squishier classes. Imagine my surprise when this time he yelled an alarm and two of those beefy orcs came to his aid. Still not much of a problem for a hobbit proudly wearing her sparkly new self-forged heavy armor but if I had been on the minstrel or runekeeper I would have run like hell.
Is that another change as well? I can't remember ever encountering re-inforcements there before.

I like the older maps, too, but will agree that the new style is easier on the eyes (it shouldn't be all about easy, though).

I think the npc you mean is Arohir, in Esteldin (Alphlanc is on the Last Bridge). It's been awhile now that the tarkrip skirmisher has had reinforcements, but I remember my own surprise the first time it happened.

Ironically a casual friend and I were looking at Dunland maps a week ago Friday, and lamenting how cartoony they appear in comparison to the previous area's maps.

If some object to the word 'cartoony', cheesy, childish, or "80's-video-gamey" might be applicable?

They don't look at all like something a cartographer would draw, they have fewer details, gaudy colors, enlarged features; à la the difference between the map on the wall in a high school and the map on the wall in an elementary school.

Admittedly the old map around Archet didn't highlight the game areas so prominently, but sadly, that's all the new map seems to do, stripping out the richness, the flavor, the feel.



"Sometimes survival comes down to not being hit. Actually, most times." -the chicken skill, Bob and Weave

Originally Posted by Aneres

If a car manufacturer said/did that, they'd be in for a class-action lawsuit. If my car was recalled, refurbished and returned to me, I would expect a complete and detailed report on what was wrong, what changed, and what's new.

While I understand that a Software Development Company is not a Car Manufacturer, paying customers are universal.

Screws 2, 45, 63-67, 1201 and 1203 replaced, screws 3, 70-75 fastened, screw 783 lost …. Yeah sure. (Not to mention that the deal with LotRo is more like renting a car, you don't own the game and the company is not taking it away from you every time it updates)

Originally Posted by Reniannen

Screws 2, 45, 63-67, 1201 and 1203 replaced, screws 3, 70-75 fastened, screw 783 lost …. Yeah sure. (Not to mention that the deal with LotRo is more like renting a car, you don't own the game and the company is not taking it away from you every time it updates)

That analogy would be suitable if people were asking for every single line of source code that was changed. That's not the case though. Nobody needs to know what happens in the background, but it's fair to ask for the list to be complete with the things that concern the players (or driver, in the case of the car).

Originally Posted by MoonwalkIntoMordor

That analogy would be suitable if people were asking for every single line of source code that was changed. That's not the case though. Nobody needs to know what happens in the background, but it's fair to ask for the list to be complete with the things that concern the players (or driver, in the case of the car).

Which, in my humble opinion, redrawing of a map is not. Not knowing that it changed will not (and cannot) adversely affect your gameplay therefore you need not to be made aware of it. Changes in skills, loot tables and mob behaviour that is another matter.

I am only asking to list all changes players can actually notice.

What's so hard about writing:
-NPC xyz added to
-map abc redesigned
-added dismount animation
-changed icons of the new armour set pieces
-there's a new tree at ??
?

These kinds of things are dead easy to write down. There's no excuse for not providing such patch notes.

Originally Posted by Abiyah

I think the npc you mean is Arohir, in Esteldin (Alphlanc is on the Last Bridge). It's been awhile now that the tarkrip skirmisher has had reinforcements, but I remember my own surprise the first time it happened.

Although I almost had a heart attack I do like that change, as I like those darned goblins at the north-western entrance, that run for help if you don't cc them or kill them fast. Adds a touch of realism.

I like the original better because it goes better with the lotr theme. Maybe they can provide a toggle in the UI settings for one style vs another if the artists really want to draw new maps

The new style seem to have started with Moria. As those maps are colorful and continued with Mirkwood, Enedwaith and now Isengard.

I too prefer the old style of maps. It made them look more like maps.
I'd also like the Fog of War back tbh, it gave me the feeling of adventuring in little known places where I was drawing my own map as I went along.

Old style was more toward 'handdrawn'. New style is clearly "Campaign Cartographer" computer software generated.

Cant always get best there is, but for the Pen&Paper games i GMing, the final product of similar to that software i usually after printing run thry 'aging' procedure - pushing up into a paper ball, rolling in sand and then straigtening, sometimes also adding waterstains, burning off an edge or a corner and adding some tears. My feel is, the ingame map could really benefit from similar, albeit digital aging procedure applied.

I'm in a middle ground here.

I must disagree that the new style looks more like computer generated. If anything, it looks more like hand drawn. The problem is that it looks like been drawn too much by a professional illustrator, not a cartographer. There is too much polychromy, too colorful. Noone would ever draw a map like that.

The old style was not perfect either. If anything, it looks too much like made using a computer. Pay attention to the mountains or buildings, specially in Angmar map. They repeat themselves multiple times. Someone drew those maps by dragging icons from a toolbox to the canvas. From afar they actually look closer to a monochromatic map, and so it looks to be more plausible. But at the same time, they are really far from actually looking reallistic.

As other have said, it would have been wonderful to try to replicate the style of the maps found in the books. Maybe with a little bit of color here and there. If only they desaturated the colors a little bit in the new ones, it would improve much.

I bet to disagree.
In my eye, the new look is a lot closer to pure computer generated stuff. Old one was CG too, but with some digital aging effect applied. New one just went for that pristine look.

Please compare the ingame map posted, to some examples of digitally generated maps:

http://crpp0001.uqtr.ca/w4/MAPS/Towns.html
another CC3 example:
http://www.pgholyfield.com/maah/wp-c...estern_yew.jpg
yet more CC3 examples:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/piazza_...n/photostream/

Whoa, it wasn't just me.
I think it's odd. The whiteness makes me think of snow... And I was asking friends, "Where is there snow in Archet?"

I can enjoy either map style, but I think the new-style maps are easier on the eyes and they do put a better focus on important areas over the old maps.

Originally Posted by BirdofHermes

I'd also like the Fog of War back tbh, it gave me the feeling of adventuring in little known places where I was drawing my own map as I went along.

Yeah, I miss it too. It helped me remember where each character had and hadn't been yet, which can be difficult especially when dusting-off a character that you haven't adventured with recently.

Originally Posted by Zydrate

Whoa, it wasn't just me.
I think it's odd. The whiteness makes me think of snow... And I was asking friends, "Where is there snow in Archet?"

Snow, what about that building sized sheep? I want to see THAT!

I like the new maps for newbie zones as they do seem to be a little clearer which is important when you're new to the game. However for other areas I agree that they do look computer generated and don't fit the setting very well. If they do choose to proceed with this style I wonder if it would be possible for them to open up the maps for UI modification so that we can make our own decisions on what we like?

Still, things could be worse: