Thread: An Argument For Top-Tier Raiding Armor in Store

Originally Posted by Hurin

It was curious to me that the virtue cap was raised, many previously worthless Virtues were suddenly the most valuable, and nearly all the means of raising those previously worthless Virtues involved slayer deeds.

So all those players out there who had grinded up the deeds they wanted and ignored the worthless ones suddenly found themselves wanting/needing to swap in Virtues that were at four or five, and facing down a lot of slayer deed, or. . . convieniently (!). . . just going to the store.

And note the neat trick there. . . they didn't even need to technically "add" more slayer deeds to the store. They just revamped the system in such a way that was almost guaranteed to make Slayer Deed Accelerators and Virtue purchases jump substantially.

Am I cynical for thinking this probably wasn't just a coincidence?

Raising the cap from 10 to 12 was great for me personally - I already had all my virtues at the max (around 14), so my character got a nice boost instantly. I did re-spec, since as you noted the traits changed quite a bit. I think Turbine would like all the virtues to be equally good, depending on the situation. Then you can visit a bard to re-spec for a raid, or whatever.

And for those players who hadn't worked on those now-useful traits, the Accelerator option was probably really nice. They could go do the deeds the long way, or they could spend a bit of money and do them twice as fast. If Turbine made some money on that, great.

Originally Posted by Hurin

But is it me who is being cynical or is it the business model that is cynical and thus causes its customers to think cynically whenever there is a change made to the game. It's just common sense that this business model pits the developer's interests against the interests of its players in ways that the subscription model never did.

Let's say Turbine adds in the ability for you to save different bard configurations (all your virtue, class-trait, legendary trait settings). First, that would be great - people have been asking for that for a long time. For some classes (esp minis), you have to switch back and forth all the time. It's painful, time-consuming, and expensive.

My guess is, this would work like LI or Cosmetic or Milestone slots. You'd get a few configuration slots for free, and then you could spend some TP to open more slots. Two configurations would be fine for most people, but I'm sure many would like one for each skill tree, or one for PvE and one for PvP, or one for Solo and one for Group (or various combinations of those). So, lots of people would end up buying a handful. To me, that would be a win-win. We get some great new functionality, and Turbine makes some money from those who use it most -- just like the LI, Cosmetic, and Milestone slots. You can easily get by with what they give you for free, but if it's a feature you really use, you might want to spend some TP to expand it. That to me, is a perfect use of the Store.

I am a software developer. Our company tries to make money by developing good software that our customers want to use. I'm sure Turbine feels the same way. I really can't imagine that (just because players are buying Deed Accelarators) that Turbine will add in more deeds.

Originally Posted by Hurin

For example. . . do you think the recent rise in the price of Scrolls of Empowerment was due to in-game balance concerns? Or are store-bought scrolls of empowerment a cash cow and they'd like you to buy more of them rather than grinding them out in-game? I don't know for certain. But in this model (contrary to the subscription model), I now have to wonder.

Originally Posted by Hurin

Likewise, do you really think the Legendary Item revamp called for relics to be destroyed on deconstruction for gameplay reasons? Or was that merely a result of them seeing a market for "relic removal" in the store?

I think that was their attempt to get rid of some legacy relics they considered over-powered in some ways. They could have just deleted them or replaced them with shards or something, but that would have infuriated the players). So, they let you keep them, and they even allow you to re-use them in your new weapons (by spending a few TP). So although I don't think destroying relics was necessary for ongoing game-play reasons, it might have been necessary for their overall re-balancing. Just like when they reset all our stats back in Moria.

Originally Posted by Hurin

There are many, many ways that the new business model undermines the integrity of the game and sets the developer's interests against the interests of the players. Above are just a few. But seldom do folks think it all through and take notice. I guess you just have to be cynical to do so?

I agree that the model does undermine the integrity of the game. Things like the +10 Attribute tomes are a pretty good example. Sure, they drop in the game, but not really. So, either you have to buy them, or you have to resign yourself to not having the best stats you could have. +70 points isn't a huge difference, when most of us have 1500 on our main attribute. But it's a pretty nice difference.

Originally Posted by Hurin

I don't think they're abandoning the game. But they are trying to squeeze more money out of it. And we demonstrate time and time again that we're willing to see the integrity of the game corrupted and the store become ever more intrusive every time they add something, and we squawk, and then we all just go right back to playing.

Yes, and in some ways I'm concerned too. It's really not a money issue for me - I make a good salary, and I spend a lot of time enjoying LOTRO. I certainly don't mind spending some money on it. I am concerned (as you are) about the integrity of the game.

On the other hand, there's a lot I like about the (concept of the) Store. It lets people pay for what they want. If you want to RP, and want to have lots of cosmetic gear, and lots of cosmetic slots, that's great - you may have to pay a bit extra for that. If you want to be a top raider, then you put some of your money into things like the stat tomes. If you want to be a top PvPer, then you can put some of your money in that - buy some potions or whatever to make you a better PvPer.

And it means I don't have to pay for stuff I don't want (to some extent). If I don't care about PvP, none of my money goes to PvP. If lots of people feel that way, then there isn't enough interest to make PvP viable in this game. Sure, we'll lose a few people, if that's all they're interested in. On the other hand, if I do like PvP, or if lots of other people do, then Turbine will respond and develop more PvP content.

So if there's enough people who like what you like (in other words, if this game is a good fit for you), then the developer can make some money, and develop more of what you like. Win-win. If there's not enough interest in something, then the developer doesn't have to waste resources developing something only a minority of the players care about (even if they are very vocal). And I'm not trying to pick on PvP, or say it should or should not be part of LOTRO - it just seemed like an example everyone would understand.

The only people who really lose, are those who are trying to play for free - they don't get to "vote" with their wallets. And why should they get a say in the direction of the game, if they aren't willing to pay for it? So if they like the game, great, they can play a lot of it for free. But if they aren't willing or able to pay for it, they won't get as much out of it as someone who is.

The real question is, how much should be free, and how much should be paid for? Generally speaking, Turbine does pretty well. You get 6 LI slots, and you can buy 2 more. You get a few Cosmetic slots, and you can buy a few more. You get 1 Milestone (two would be more fair I think), and you can buy more.

So let's say they decide to put some raid gear in the store (that you can ONLY get in the store). For example with the next raid set, let's say tier 1 is all purple, and you can get it by questing and raiding. Tier 2 is teal, and you can get 4 pieces by raiding. The last 2 pieces are only available in the store. You could still be a very good raider without them, but you'd be a little bit better with those last 2 teal pieces. If you're a casual raider and you don't want to spend money, you won't be quite as uber as an otherwise equal player who does spend the money. Your kinship of like-minded players can still kill the balrog/dragon/whatever, but it's a bit harder, and takes a bit longer. Would that ruin the integrity of the game for you?

What if we were talking about PvP? An otherwise equal player who spent some money would have an (unfair?) advantage over you. That's a lot more problematic. But some PvP costs are okay. I'm not sure exactly how the free accounts work (mine are both Lifetime), but I think you get 1 creep, and you can buy others. That seems fine to me.

What if my example were RP instead? If you don't buy the extra cosmetics or housing hooks, you won't be quite as good as someone who does. Sounds kind of silly, right?

Is it because PvP (and to some extent raiding) is competitive, and other aspects of the game are not?

So if Turbine can't put anything in the store that gives you an advantage in the competitive aspects of the game, then the non-competitive players would be subsidizing the competitive players. The integrity of the game may be preserved, but at what cost? Personally, I like most aspects of the game. I quest, deed, raid, PvP (creep and freep), RP, and just hang-out with my friends sometimes. But I know lots of players who wouldn't want to unfairly subsidize all game-styles.

I assume most of us don't object to Turbine making some money off the game they developed (and indeed, most of us want them to develop more). Most of us are willing to pay some for it, especially for things we like. I think most of us wouldn't want people to be able to buy stuff that gives them an unfair advantage (especially when there was no reasonable way to get it without buying it).

The level 20 gear doesn't concern me at all. If people want to pay Turbine so they can have slightly better gear for a few levels, fine; that's less money that I have to pay.

If Turbine wanted to sell top-end raid gear that's as good or better than anything in the game, I would have a problem with that. If they wanted to sell good raid gear that was the equivalent of the best gear from the previous expansion, I would be fine with that.

So what things is Turbine selling currently that bother you? For me, it's the Stat Tomes. You can't (really) get them in game, and they do make your character better. Are there other things like that?

They will probably look at posts like this and go "hey people want it so lets put this #### in!", but will readily ignore the heaps of other people going.." this is bad, very bad".

It doesn't detract from my game play if you pay money instant loot on par or better, it detracts from the game as a whole.

Keep the store items and their effects minimal. Relics are cool. Potions are cool. Stat tomes, who cares.

Of course it WILL effect me when people who are ignorant to content roll up in bling gear and have NO idea what they are doing even though they are geared like they've done it a dozen times.

Misleading and annoying. Sometimes I feel like playing teacher. Some times not so much. I'd get irritated if I was lied to about your experience if asked.

EVE tried this and it failed. Mass exodus and they came out and said "sorry". Greed will get them no where.

Long has it worked to corrupt the minds of men....

Originally Posted by GalateaOrea

I feel sorry for Sapience that he was made to say something as silly as this when he knows the LOTRO community is not stupid.

I do not. Please consider this :

When the Mouth of Sauron rode out of the Black Gates to answer Aragorn's challenge, certainly he was to say the things that Sauron wanted, regardless of the messenger's personal feelings on the truth. Having said that, does it somehow absolve him when he threw Frodo's mithril shirt to Gandalf and claimed that "Who would've thought one so small could endure so much pain?" while knowing full well that it was bull?

At what point does personal accountability and responsible come into play? It is easy to blame some faceless and nameless figure head looming in the shadows that is WarnerBrothers. But the moment we refuse to hold the underlings accountable is the very moment that those in the shadows will be even more tempted to hide behind "just the messengers".

Originally Posted by LadyDena

I do not. Please consider this :

When the Mouth of Sauron rode out of the Black Gates to answer Aragorn's challenge, certainly he was to say the things that Sauron wanted, regardless of the messenger's personal feelings on the truth. Having said that, does it somehow absolve him when he threw Frodo's mithril shirt to Gandalf and claimed that "Who would've thought one so small could endure so much pain?" while knowing full well that it was bull?

At what point does personal accountability and responsible come into play? It is easy to blame some faceless and nameless figure head looming in the shadows that is WarnerBrothers. But the moment we refuse to hold the underlings accountable is the very moment that those in the shadows will be even more tempted to hide behind "just the messengers".

I say a BIG YES. Im a long term player since beta and since playing ive seen lots of changes. And from being in 4 main kins thorugh this time it was fine jumping in those 12 man raids and getting your tokens etc for that top tier armor. But now im a solo player due to lack of playing time and yeah it REALLY aggrovates me knowing i cant run these raids as regular as i could and i know i have not enough time to kin up with a regular run group. Having top teir armor available to me through the store would be great but even easier make me work for it by just implementing a bloody 1 man instance run through skirmishes. Still have to work for it and still i get the reward at the end. SOOOOOO PLEASE devs if you read this look into 1 man instancing for us solo'ers its about time this happened in this game especially before GW2 is released or the world of lotro will get pushed to the back shelf for me until they decide to implement this idea so all players have access to end game content weapons and armor.