Thread: An Argument For Top-Tier Raiding Armor in Store

Originally Posted by LadyDena

Not going to speak for that poster who you were asking, but it is simple :

PEOPLE DON'T TRUST THEM.

This line of low level players complaining about armor being too hard to find is the coming from the same group of people who said "Convenience Only", and "we will not sell items with stats in the store". And one doesn't have to be blindly naive, simply look around the forum. How many posts complaining about low level armor being too hard to find can you find? I tried. Want to guess how many I found?

There is being giving people the benefit of the doubt, and there is putting blinders on in the face of facts that one can look to ascertain. And THEN there are the track records of the group making claims and promises.

For the record, I checked the AH and could only find 1 or none lower level gear on many different occasions.

Originally Posted by Ellyllon

I've made a lot of armour for strangers in the game. If I see someone struggling, I inspect them, see what they can use, & go make them what I can, then mail it to them. (for me, that's... ok, everything... jewels, tailored armour, metal armour, weapons... it's almost sad, really) And I do it often. It's like being Lady Santa Elf.

I'd done a bit of that. Part of the fun of crafting is you can generate gear to gift to people when you wish. So to me, crafting is not necessarily just a way to make money.

The store armour wasn't necessary. It cuts into the business of rising crafters, like the little hobbit mentioned some time ago. That's so obviously wrong - I cannot believe people are seriously condoning this. My only regret, and shame, is that I didn't think of it when it was another profession, like scholar or metalsmith (I have those, too, of course... but I didn't NOTICE)

I'm not sure how it cuts into the business when, based on my experience, there was only 1 piece or none of the gear I was looking for in the low levels. Partly whey I had to resort to crafting.

I couldn't afford getting armor buy doing skirmish at 20. It seemed most of my points went to training my soldier. And I wanted to quest, not to grind skirmish at 20. Lonelands etc were much fun to vist.

Originally Posted by Gelydh

Do you want to see this game killed by encouraging Turbine to put end game armour in the store?

Look at it another way: if that meant that another company were to get the license and actually do a great job, would that be a bad thing?

(If Turbine can be so coldly calculating about their business, so can I.)

If there was there was top-tier raiding armor in the Store would I buy it? Yes.

At the point that there is top-tier armor in the Store there will be no reason not to. And I have no, zero, zip problem with the idea of the Store. I actually like it. A lot. I like the convenience items like the rep accelerator, buying stats, and virtues. Anything that saves me and my 9 alts time, I love. More wardrobe, more shared storage, basic riding, cool mounts.

But I do not like things that take away stuff I had. I don't like the Relic Removal Scroll because it has changed a game mechanic and essentially, without it, the game now takes my stuff from me. Stuff (relics) I worked hard for. I do not like anything in the game that REMOVES from the game something I earned. I fear that more of the game will be designed towards Store items and more essential game mechanics will be put in the Store. As this is where I think things are going, I see no reason to work hard to achieve anything and will be happy to buy it in the Store to avoid the high octane annoyance of having an item I worked hard to get taken from me or retention of it gated behind a store-bought item.

At the same time, the more aspects of the game that can be bought in the Store, the less interest the game will hold. Now I'm going to give an example that is not entirely parallel to our current situation, but it is the closest actual experience I have to what I see happening here. I entered online gaming through Diablo II. Anyone who played in the olden days knows the game was hacked six-ways from Sunday and that obtaining godly items just required a willingness to spend money with the Chinese farmers/hackers. I played a number (a vast number, actually) of classes up into the 70s and high 80s and farmed all the right areas for loot. But I have abysmal luck with the RNG and preferred to spend my time playing rather than running Baal endlessly all night (although I did that, too). In the end, I bought from the dealers to gear up all my guys. And at the point that I could and did buy everything I needed to make my characters godly, I lost interest. There was nothing more to do. I could run around and impress players with my neat sheet, which I did, and blast the heck out of Hell Baal, but since it was all fake, it had no real satisfaction.

The slippery slope everyone fears is not just Turbine crossing the dangerous line, it's players crossing it as well, into that place where all your gaming achievements are paid for and all your godliness fake.

Originally Posted by GalateaOrea

An extremely important point well made.

Exactly, if you can just buy it, there is no challenge therefore there is NO game.

Who remembers their first character from levels 1-20? Memorable times huh? How much less would that experience have been if you could have cruised through on uber gear and those important first impressions ruined by playing on autopilot? Would have gotten into LoTRO as you are now or would it have been 'just another RPG'.

Also, remember this is Lord of the Rings, the whole point of the story is about the heroes journey and the struggles along the way. Not: I'm Strider... click, click, ker-Ching... now I'm King Ellessar all-round badass and leader of the free kingdoms of men.

Originally Posted by Ellyllon

I've made a lot of armour for strangers in the game. If I see someone struggling, I inspect them, see what they can use, & go make them what I can, then mail it to them. (for me, that's... ok, everything... jewels, tailored armour, metal armour, weapons... it's almost sad, really) And I do it often. It's like being Lady Santa Elf.

There are many ways to get armour. Skirmishes, first of all. Those rewards could have been made better and/or cheaper to get in game. Crafting is a pain - guilded items are one item a week. (Of course, if I buy crafting packs, I can deck out my alts, can't I? I've done that enough!)

Quest rewards - bump up the quality, and there you go. Done & done. The store armour wasn't necessary. It cuts into the business of rising crafters, like the little hobbit mentioned some time ago. That's so obviously wrong - I cannot believe people are seriously condoning this. My only regret, and shame, is that I didn't think of it when it was another profession, like scholar or metalsmith (I have those, too, of course... but I didn't NOTICE)

Something weird happened to LOTRO crafting with Moria, the radiance sets, and the introduction of LIs. Crafting ceased to be a key game activity and became a niche. The devs, bless their hearts, just haven't figured out how to bring crafting back on line in a meaningful way. They keep gating components in instances, being stingy with drops, and generally treating top-end crafting as the kid assigned to be permanent catcher. If they could just get over the need to be so controlling, give crafters great recipes, and sufficient drops to make stuff for the AH, things would change. Instead, they just can't see past the instance-as-end-game blinders they have on which forces them to put everything in instances.

Originally Posted by Eluros

What do you all think?

Why raid in the first place if you can get everything from the store? Why even bother playing the game?

My biggest fear:
Store raid armour with a special attribute on it, just like radiance ... and everyone who doesn't buy at least three pieces of that armour will have zero chances to run any upcoming instances.

Seen this in a lot of "free to play" games. The store offers certain item(s) that are essential for running higher instances in the first place.

Originally Posted by GalateaOrea

At the same time, the more aspects of the game that can be bought in the Store, the less interest the game will hold. Now I'm going to give an example that is not entirely parallel to our current situation, but it is the closest actual experience I have to what I see happening here. I entered online gaming through Diablo II. Anyone who played in the olden days knows the game was hacked six-ways from Sunday and that obtaining godly items just required a willingness to spend money with the Chinese farmers/hackers. I played a number (a vast number, actually) of classes up into the 70s and high 80s and farmed all the right areas for loot. But I have abysmal luck with the RNG and preferred to spend my time playing rather than running Baal endlessly all night (although I did that, too). In the end, I bought from the dealers to gear up all my guys. And at the point that I could and did buy everything I needed to make my characters godly, I lost interest. There was nothing more to do. I could run around and impress players with my neat sheet, which I did, and blast the heck out of Hell Baal, but since it was all fake, it had no real satisfaction.

The slippery slope everyone fears is not just Turbine crossing the dangerous line, it's players crossing it as well, into that place where all your gaming achievements are paid for and all your godliness fake.

I agree very much with this. If you just got everything you needed up front, what would even be the point of playing the game? The reason games like this are the way they are is to hold your interest over a long period of time. You start with nothing and work your way up and progress until you have everything. If they just gave everyone everything upfront they would quickly lose interest and stop playing. You take all that away and you don't even have a game anymore. You have a glorified chat room with people playing dress up. Running around in store bought raid armor isn't impressing anyone other than the person who bought it.

For me, raids are not just about gear, but about challenge, defeat, victory, sharing fun time with friends.

The scenario everyone seems to have in mind is shooting up to 75, buy raid gear, WIN.

If I had time to raid, I'd want to work my way up from level 50 raids as I level up, and stop at 50 to raid for a bit. A question is: For those who wish to experience older expansion raids, how will it work out?

Are there pick-up-raids for lower level raids? At what level will we need to be to be able to do level 65 raids for fun if we do not wish to grind for radiance gear? (and still have challenge) I'm concerned that grinding for radiance alone will shoot me up to 75.

Can two level 75 players duo level 50 raids for challenge? What about one-grouping level 65 raids without radiance gear for challenge? Questions like that.

But based on forum conversation, most people are looking at level 75 WIN scenario. And I don't even have much time to raid. So I'm just throwing this out. Not gonna worry about it.

Originally Posted by Crell_1

Doesn't mean the feedback wasn't there. There's an NDAed program, there's the fact that Turbine surveys random folks and then data-mines, etc.

I do feel it'd be good for Turbine to disclose where this feedback came from.

If there is a problem in the game, the forum is usually the very first place you hear about in, and quickly too I might add. When Draigoch bugged out, boom! its on the forum on the same day. When people couldn't figure out whats going on in Tracking an Old Goat, or why there is now an additional click screen upon log-in, or what the heck happened to Orthanc's acid wing, or the ripoffs thats in the Steelbound Lootbox, or how come Strength of the Earth is still not fixed, or why the Throne of Night housing trophy got changed to pebble size, etc. etc. etc. they were all on the forum. Problems major, small, and trivial, they are all here. The fact that I have scoured the forums looking for *any* thread from players complaining about the lack of low level armor and not finding any is extremely telling.

I agree its be good for Turbine to disclose the source of this 'feedback'. But unfortunately since chances are that it is imaginary, we will only hear silence.

Originally Posted by Crell_1

Doesn't mean the feedback wasn't there. There's an NDAed program, there's the fact that Turbine surveys random folks and then data-mines, etc.

I do feel it'd be good for Turbine to disclose where this feedback came from.

Are new low-level players a part of the NDA program?

Originally Posted by Zombielord

Why raid in the first place if you can get everything from the store? Why even bother playing the game?

Originally Posted by Vellem

I agree very much with this. If you just got everything you needed up front, what would even be the point of playing the game?

Um...fun?

Originally Posted by Chanah

The store is going to be here as long as the game is. I personally don't think that's going to be very long with all the cash grabs happening, but I could be wrong.

If you still got scrolls of relic removal on reforge, would you care that they sold them in the store? If you could quest for Scrolls of Greater Empowerment on a daily or twice a week timetable, would it be so awful that they raised the price at skirmish barterers? If you could ignore the instance finder, run the skirmishes you chose, and get the same rewards as you did pre instance finder, would that be okay?

If crafting hadn't been severely nerfed at least four times in the past year, and you could craft bound to account gear as good as or better than what's in the store, would you care?

If virtues hadn't been completely changed so that you probably had to change three or four of the ones you already had to 10, would it matter that they sold virtues in the store?

To me - it wouldn't. Just like it wouldn't matter if they sold raid gear, or fully levelled characters in the store. Unfortunately, the path they've taken with the store is ruining the game. If they simply put items into the store without changing the game to the point where you pretty much need the store at certain points, I would have no problem with it. And I'd probably buy some cosmetics, to boot.

The store itself doesn't need to be a problem. The way Turbine handles the game to drive people to the store is killing the game. If they're doing it to grab as much money as they can for an early shutdown date, I understand. If they aren't, I have no idea why they're ruining LoTRO this way.

I identify with this post more than any other in the thread.

The store can be a good thing, but they keep making good things bad in order to sell even MORE in the store, and that's what will drive me away if it continues.

Originally Posted by Abiyah

Are new low-level players a part of the NDA program?

Most likely not with the NDA program but if the people who did the survey were any good they would have been included in that.

I think that one thing that people dont really pay attention to is how many new players come and give the game a try each week. If you look at this website which shows log ins http://lux-hdro.de/hdro-live-us.php you will see that the server recommended for new players has the highest number of log ins each day by a large margin. Even last months recomended server has more log ins then Brandywine.

I know that for all of us that have been in game for years the game seems real easy. But if your a new player that is use to playing other F2P games such as say farmville there is a lot to learn. It seems we as vets are not interacting with these new players enought to get them to stay so Turbine apparently felt that providing a way to get armor in the store may help.

I just looked at the armor that was for sale on my server for lvl 20 to 30. There were a few dozen yellow crafted pieces selling for prices from 10 to 100 silver. There are 5 purple lt armor chest pieces priced at 250, no other lt armor so you cant get a nice set. No purple med armor at all, which means that hunters the most popular class are out of luck. Then comes the heavy armor. There were 4 pieces of purple lvl 20 armor at 1 gold each and a crit teal piece at 1.5 gold. There is no way a new player can afford to purchase this armor.

So based on my server the choices are buy cheep junk, or buy nothing. We always like to say that we are the best MMO community but what are we really doing to help out those new players that try out the game each day? Based on the AH it doesnt look like much.

I, personally, don't think to put low-level gear on the AH because I don't even make it for myself. It's just not necessary if you're completing quests. Sure, sometimes you wear a L16 bracelet until you're L25, but that's part of the game. I didn't start crafting myself in this game until I saw something I wanted to be able to make for myself. So maybe when you're wearing armour from Bree quests at L26, that'd be a good time to see a man about some hides.

I made my second character so I could make Etched Beryl Rings. And now I'm a full-blown altoholic. I think putting low-level gear in the store just discourages new players from slowing down and enjoying the other aspects of the game, and starts them on the path of create character->level cap->grind endgame joylessly.

Originally Posted by ThistleRose3

I just looked at the armor that was for sale on my server for lvl 20 to 30. There were a few dozen yellow crafted pieces selling for prices from 10 to 100 silver. There are 5 purple lt armor chest pieces priced at 250, no other lt armor so you cant get a nice set. No purple med armor at all, which means that hunters the most popular class are out of luck. Then comes the heavy armor. There were 4 pieces of purple lvl 20 armor at 1 gold each and a crit teal piece at 1.5 gold. There is no way a new player can afford to purchase this armor.

This is definitely what I find on the AH between L20-30/40 maybe even up to 50/60 now. Generally, when players craft to level their crafing ixp, the item with the best return on investment (most crafting xp per resource item) is the focus. Also, the crit items are often used in crafting components vs. crafting the gear, since when you crit a component it'll give you x3 the crafting experience vs. critting an armour piece. In the end the player ends up with bags of a single item that is vendored immediately (except maybe a handful). These items generally are chest pieces for armour, great swords/clubs for weapons, and polished stones for jewelry. Anything that is crit is often given away for free to anyone who wants it or placed on the AH to have lob-sided AHs or often vendored as well.

Throw on top of that the fact that T3-T6 resources are also primarily used in crafting guild rep items (where a good % of the T2-T5 jewelry ingots go) to level rep and/or store for use to craft items and you get the state that the AH is often in: critted highest vendor-priced pieces/items, high-priced guild auto-crits, a bunch of very non-crit world-drop yellows, and high priced stacks of hides/ore for players to do the same thing. Add on top of that the addition of Bound crafted relics and you add a whole slew of players consuming the gathered resources doing this exact same thing with very little interest in crafting anything other than top tier items to use and the crafted relics.

Add on top of that there are quite a few annoyances of using the AH/crafting systems if you really want to have a dedicated crafting alternative regularly available on the AH.

Originally Posted by GalateaOrea

Something weird happened to LOTRO crafting with Moria, the radiance sets, and the introduction of LIs. Crafting ceased to be a key game activity and became a niche. The devs, bless their hearts, just haven't figured out how to bring crafting back on line in a meaningful way. They keep gating components in instances, being stingy with drops, and generally treating top-end crafting as the kid assigned to be permanent catcher. If they could just get over the need to be so controlling, give crafters great recipes, and sufficient drops to make stuff for the AH, things would change. Instead, they just can't see past the instance-as-end-game blinders they have on which forces them to put everything in instances.

I hope those PTB types who are reading this get this point! I know I want to craft - I like crafting, even in single player games. The AH has some weird limits - those could be removed. If they're worried about gold farmers, then... ok, at this point, that would be laughable.

Mail. Ok, let us mail more than 1 item at a time. Right now, I'm not worried about gold spammers. They're not hitting me with billboards at every turn. They're the least of my concerns now. I almost miss the innocent lack of graphics in 'jumbled message takes you to a hacking site & steals your life's savings' message. (the best I ever got, must have been in WoW, but offered a 'horse for my horse!')

But even ignoring the obvious crafting/AH fixes, they could so easily have fixed this issue of 'no gear for L20s,' by improving the quest drops or improving the quality of skirmish rewards.

They don't want us to get easy money in game, by quests or drops, but they DO want us to buy easy armour & other craftable materials in the store? That does not compute. (Dear God, I just quoted Lost in Space! I'm so close to adding, "Warning, Will...." I must be stopped...) Anyway, it's harder to get money from junk drops & quests than in other games. I assume they don't want us to get too much money too easy, but if that's it... come on. Store armour? How much easier can it get? (not to mention, unfair and dependent upon a person's income.)

Let players make more money in game, if only from junk drops, & maybe they'd use the AH a bit more, with enough money to be of value to crafters. Right now, I can make a bit of silver from a crafted mid level item - if I list in for gold, I feel like potting soil, & it's just going to some high level player's alt, not a new player. If I list it low, it gets snapped up & resold higher. Maybe the AH as well as crafting both need some closer inspection. I suggest removing the clever sorts who are busily coming up with new store items to be moved to the department that works on business issues IN game.

I'm not buying the 'players were begging for store armour.' There's a time when the company has to say, 'no,' for the greater good, the long term benefit, & the understanding of what makes a game satisfying to play. Giving people things they can and should earn in game is NOT the way.

A game with integrity is meant to be played. You either play the game as designed or you don't. Or you pick and choose the portions of the game you find appealing.

If instead, you pay to avoid portions of the game (yet still reap the rewards), not only are you missing the point of the game as a game. . . but you are incentivizing the game developer to add more content you do not like.

Seriously, folks. Consider that. You can dress it all up as "choice" and "customizing" the game. But the more you spend to avoid content you don't prefer to do, the more likely the developer is to develop game systems and content featuring those very characteristics you're willing to pay to bypass. Even as those who do like that type of gameplay become disenchanted with all the fruits of their playstyle and effort being monetized and sold in the store.

Which, again, is why this business model pits the game developer against its own customers in ways the older subscription model never did. And it does so in ways most customers will never realize even as they happily hand their money over and praise the system for allowing them to "customize" their gameplay.

--H

Edit: Full disclosure - Before I had thought this model through, I must admit that I purchased a few scrolls of empowerment. That was a mistake.

Originally Posted by Hurin

the more you spend to avoid content you don't prefer to do, the more likely the developer is to develop game systems and content featuring those very characteristics you're willing to pay to bypass.

This one of the most intelligent observations I’ve ever seen in a forum post +rep

Originally Posted by Ellyllon

I'm not buying the 'players were begging for store armour.' There's a time when the company has to say, 'no,' for the greater good, the long term benefit, & the understanding of what makes a game satisfying to play. Giving people things they can and should earn in game is NOT the way.

I just want to clarify one thing, and I'm pretty sure it's what you meant anyway-- selling people things they can and should earn in-game is not the way. Keep the store for selling cosmetics and fluff stuff, travel skills and account upgrades. Keep the stuff that's meant to be acquired in-game like gear where it belongs.

Originally Posted by Hurin

A game with integrity is meant to be played. You either play the game as designed or you don't. Or you pick and choose the portions of the game you find appealing.

If instead, you pay to avoid portions of the game (yet still reap the rewards), not only are you missing the point of the game as a game. . . but you are incentivizing the game developer to add more content you do not like.

If someone doesn't have time to endlessly grind instances and raids to get that armor instead buys it from the store then the game and that person have no integrity? Someone who can't spend several hours a night, multiple times a week grinding the same instances is missing the point of the game? Really?????

Originally Posted by PerinStone

If someone doesn't have time to endlessly grind instances and raids to get that armor instead buys it from the store then the game and that person have no integrity? Someone who can't spend several hours a night, multiple times a week grinding the same instances is missing the point of the game? Really?????

I dont think he is saying that, he as wqell as many others are afraid the game will become a pay to win fest.

Originally Posted by PerinStone

If someone doesn't have time to endlessly grind instances and raids to get that armor instead buys it from the store then the game and that person have no integrity? Someone who can't spend several hours a night, multiple times a week grinding the same instances is missing the point of the game? Really?????

"Really??????"

No!!!!!!!

(note: That is seven exclamation points. One more than the number of question marks you used. Check and mate.)

No. Because, I said that a game with integrity (as a game) is meant to be played. Not bypassed through sending in cash.

Are you arguing that games aren't designed to be played? All of those things pre-dating the conversion that people can now bypass by getting out their wallets weren't originally there to be completed through gameplay?

I think it speaks volumes that you take this basic truth, look right past it, and then willfully twist my words so that I am somehow saying that people (many of whom are unwitting or at least reluctant participants in the new business model) are likewise without integrity.

If I didn't know better, I'd think you're trying to distract form the larger point of my post (that paying to bypass undesired content incentivizes the creation of even more undesired content) by willfully misinterpreting what I said in order to feign outrage.

Kindly address what I said rather than what you wish I said.

--H

Edit: Note, the phrase above: "a game with integrity as a game" is carefully chosen. So unless you are a person who is looking to achieve "integrity as a game," you really have no cause to be outraged. You're not a game. So you can rest easy knowing that your integrity is not under assault. Even if the integrity of this game is. . . though I'd argue those you decry are actually defending its integrity while what you defend undermines it.

Originally Posted by PerinStone

If someone doesn't have time to endlessly grind instances and raids to get that armor instead buys it from the store then the game and that person have no integrity? Someone who can't spend several hours a night, multiple times a week grinding the same instances is missing the point of the game? Really?????

No. But it does not mean that encouraging Turbine to put in even more stat armour (and then jewellery, and then...) in the store is the best way to address that either. Remember back when Turbine had their "Comparable Incomparables" philosophy? When you could get top tier gear by crafting or PvMP, as well as raiding? When you could join a Rift or Helegrod raid on-level with crafted and epic gear, and no one would laugh at you? That is what we should be supporting - and I say "we," because, like you, I have more money than time, and I consider instance grinds boring.

When the players come to think that the store is the only alternative, we have a real problem... and Turbine has a real winner, I guess.

Originally Posted by Hurin

"Really??????"

No!!!!!!

Because, I said that a game with integrity is meant to be played. Not bypassed through sending in cash.

Are you arguing that games aren't designed to be played? All of those things pre-dating the conversion that people can now bypass by getting out their wallets weren't originally there to be completed through gameplay?

I think it speaks volumes that you take this basic truth, look right past it, and then willfully twist my words so that I am somehow saying that people (many of whom are unwitting or at least reluctant participants in the new business model) are likewise without integrity.

If I didn't know better, I'd think you're trying to distract form the larger point of my post (that paying to bypass undesired content incentivizes the creation of even more undesired content) by willfully misinterpreting what I said in order to feign outrage.

Kindly address what I said rather than what you wish I said.

--H

You started this off with a vague opinion statement that you call a "basic truth". "A game with integrity is meant to be played" What does that even mean? No one is buying anything from the store to not play the game. They are buying things to play the game in the manner they want to play it. One person doesn't want to kill 450 of a mob to gain 1 point of Zeal so they buy a scroll so they only have to kill 225. Another person doesn't want to spend or buy the points so they kill all 450. A 3rd person says screw this and buys 1 Zeal directly from the store. They are all still playing the game. How does the game lose "integrity" for letting all 3 people play it the way they want to?

If someone wants to skip levels 1-74 and buy a level 75 character they are doing so to play the game they want.

Originally Posted by PerinStone

You started this off with a vague opinion statement that you call a "basic truth". "A game with integrity is meant to be played" What does that even mean?

Well, it means that a game with integrity as a game is meant to be played. Its content is meant to be played and its rewards earned rather than its content skipped and its rewards purchased. That's about as "basic" a "truth" about a game as one can utter. The fact that a store was later grafted on that allows you to skip portions of a game by buying your way out of it does not change the fact that the integrity of the game is damaged by doing so.

No one is buying anything from the store to not play the game.

If you're being pedantic enough to point out that people who skip some parts of the game by buying their way out of them (yet still obtaining the rewards that playing through that content would provide) still go on to play other parts of the game, then yes, you are correct, those people still continue to play other parts of the game. But, of course, nobody is saying that this does not happen. Nobody is saying that people are buying things in the store and yet not playing the game at all. You're addressing a point that nobody is making becuse it's easier than confronting the point(s) you find inconvenient.

They are buying things to play the game in the manner they want to play it. One person doesn't want to kill 450 of a mob to gain 1 point of Zeal so they buy a scroll so they only have to kill 225. Another person doesn't want to spend or buy the points so they kill all 450. A 3rd person says screw this and buys 1 Zeal directly from the store. They are all still playing the game. How does the game lose "integrity" for letting all 3 people play it the way they want to?

Well, because. . . (wait for it). . . some people aren't playing that portion of the game. Yet they are buying their way around and yet still obtaining the reward for playing that portion of the game.

Let me ask you this. . . at a golf course, it becomes known that some people are coming into an eighteen hole course, only playing nine holes (or less), but because they have very busy lives and don't have the time to play all eighteen holes, they just hand $20 to the scorekeeper and have him mark down that they played all eighteen holes (and scored quite well). Indeed, the scorekeeper considers this valid and will openly tell people that's what he's doing and he's proud of it. Others are playing all eighteen holes and having their scores logged as well. They're not competing with anyone directly of course, they enjoy their days on the course. Nobody is getting hurt, right? But, now, looking through the golf course's record books, is there any integrity to the golf being played on that course? Any at all? Golf, as a game no longer has any integrity as soon as people who can't be bothered with parts of it just buy their way around the holes they don't want to play (whatever their excuse/reasons).

If someone wants to skip levels 1-74 and buy a level 75 character they are doing so to play the game they want.

Sure, they're playing the game they "want". . . but the integrity of the game is lost. It might be a fun diversion for you, and as it is tailor fit for you, you might find it very enjoyable. But it's not a game with integrity. In fact, your game is unrecognizable to others and the experience you might have had reaching level 75 bears no resemblance to the experience others had. Again, loss of integrity for the game as a game.

But, of course, this is all a distraction from the more fundamental (though easily missed) point that every time you buy your way out of content you don't enjoy, you're incentivizing Turbine to create more content you don't enjoy. Rather perverse, ain't it?

--H

Originally Posted by Abiyah

I just want to clarify one thing, and I'm pretty sure it's what you meant anyway-- selling people things they can and should earn in-game is not the way. Keep the store for selling cosmetics and fluff stuff, travel skills and account upgrades. Keep the stuff that's meant to be acquired in-game like gear where it belongs.

Yup! I like the store (too much, I'm afraid) I *wish* they'd do more with such things as class horses, but I've bought both the hunter & the guardian mounts, & I love them. I'm not bothered by those things, just wish it could have been more. I AM bothered by the things that mean that Turbine is directly competing with players, & that means crafting. I'm not a raider, but I'm horrified that anyone would want to buy raider gear. No time to grind, but time to raid? That's completely illogical.

As for the 'integrity debate,' rather than insult other players, I'll say that *I* feel *I* lack integrity when I buy too much. I'd be embarrassed to show up in that gear. I feel NOW that I've lost some honor buying things I should have earned. (hello, newly altered virtues!) The 'it's just a game' argument means nothing to me. You are what you do in any given moment. If you're on a game, that's who you are at that moment, & what you do matters, like it or not. If you cheat, you cheat. If you grow up & learn to do it the honest way, so much the better. I feel like a cheating kid every time I say, "No! I will not kill another 1000 trolls! Buy Now!" The world won't end if I'm not the best person I can be, but I'd rather just admit that I've been pond scum than to justify it by saying my precious time is somehow more valuable than someone else's.

Originally Posted by Ellyllon

As for the 'integrity debate,' rather than insult other players, I'll say that *I* feel *I* lack integrity when I buy too much. I'd be embarrassed to show up in that gear. I feel NOW that I've lost some honor buying things I should have earned. (hello, newly altered virtues!) The 'it's just a game' argument means nothing to me. You are what you do in any given moment. If you're on a game, that's who you are at that moment, & what you do matters, like it or not. If you cheat, you cheat. If you grow up & learn to do it the honest way, so much the better. I feel like a cheating kid every time I say, "No! I will not kill another 1000 trolls! Buy Now!" The world won't end if I'm not the best person I can be, but I'd rather just admit that I've been pond scum than to justify it by saying my precious time is somehow more valuable than someone else's.

Thank you for recognizing "you" feel "you" lack integrity. Therein lies the core of the matter. The achiever type of players view everything in the game as an achievement path, and any skipping in this path is a lack of integrity to them.

But for the explorer type of players who are not really achievers, ... that would be me. I put more value in exploration, so to me it'd be fun to stop at level 50 and do level 50 raids. It will mean I've explored those dungeons, seen what others had experienced. But I don't want to keep grinding it for gear. I wish to move on and explore something else.

We are all a combination of achiever, explorer, socializer, and killer. I can dip into PvP best if I get to watch people fight in an arena and place bets on them. The more focuses PvP players with to be the top of the rank in PvP contests.

A mmopgs's needs to appease all sorts of players, and allow them to each plot their own path to be successful financially.

Turbine has a right as a business to seek the best profit.

The type of people you are upset about may be the achiever type that is so caught up with their ambition that they would skip and go to a farmer to get such gear. Even if raid armor is bound on pick-up, farmers can assemble a crew and take some people in to pick up this item when it drops. The buyer may even go afk and just relax while the farmer will do all the work. Power leveling by farmers is done while the buyer is afk.

In the end, you can not prevent that type of thing for your own sense of achievement. The best thing you can do is speak to your own heart. Ask yourself if you'd succeeded in your own path, by your own standard. We are all our own judge on ourselves in life. Only we know what we did, and did not do, based on our own standard of morality. This is like people who believe in gay marriage, and people who don't. People who are Christians, and people who aren't. (In my book.) I am the type to accept everyone's play style, as long as they recognize it is their own play style, and I feel I am entitled to my own play style as well.

Originally Posted by Hurin

integrity.......

I see no validity in your use of the term "integrity" for a video game so none of what you said really sways me. Everything you say about integrity is your opinion, not some universal truth like you're making it out to be.

golf analogy

I don't play golf so maybe I would feel differently if I did. If someone wants to play 9 holes and pay more to say their score for 18 holes was something then I wouldn't care. If I am having fun with my friends then I don't care what someone else says his score was.

I will agree with you on your main point. If you pay for things you don't like in the store, you are not doing yourself any favors in the long run.

Originally Posted by PerinStone

I see no validity in your use of the term "integrity" for a video game so none of what you said really sways me. Everything you say about integrity is your opinion, not some universal truth like you're making it out to be.

I think perhaps you should review the definition of integrity. Of the three definition provided below, I think you are hung up on #1. Whereas, you can see that what I have said has more to do with #2 and #3. When you buy a level 75 toon (to use your extreme example), you're still playing a game. But not LotRO as it was designed. When people buy their way out of swaths of content and yet still obtain the rewards that content provides, some might argue #1 comes into play, but I'm more concerned with #2 and #3.

integrity
in·teg·ri·ty [in-teg-ri-tee]
noun
1. adherence to moral and ethical principles; soundness of moral character; honesty.
2. the state of being whole, entire, or undiminished: to preserve the integrity of the empire.
3. a sound, unimpaired, or perfect condition: the integrity of a ship's hull.

With #2 and #3 in mind, you might care to re-read what I have posted prior.

I don't play golf so maybe I would feel differently if I did.

Nor do I. Nor does one need to do so in order to indulge the analogy.

If someone wants to play 9 holes and pay more to say their score for 18 holes was something then I wouldn't care. If I am having fun with my friends then I don't care what someone else says his score was.

Sorta willfully missing the point though. As I said, golf as a integral whole, as a recognizable sport at that golf course, has lost its integrity (according to all the definitions above). Its record book, its player roles, and its place among those who play golf as a sport/game with integrity is forefeit. You might still enjoy goofing around on that golf course, you might even enjoy being one of the guys who pays your way out of the final few holes. . . but you ain't playing golf anymore. You're just goofing around and buying your way out of playing golf as a recognizable game. That apparently doesn't trouble you. But it would trouble folks who like to play a game with some integrity as a game.

I will agree with you on your main point. If you pay for things you don't like in the store, you are not doing yourself any favors in the long run.

Well, at least we finally got to this point! But to be clear, you're not "paying for things you don't like". . . you're paying to avoid things you don't like. Which will only incentivize Turbine to develop more content just like the content you just paid to avoid.

--H

This is a tricky issue for me, so I appreciate the opportunity to weigh the pros/cons in a rational manner (and threads like these remind me of what a mature and intelligent community we have here).

I really do empathize with longtime players who have 9 toons at 75 and can’t bear to run school/lib, or Fangorn, or whatever else they come up with next, one more time. They know their class, they know the instances inside and out, and all they want is to get the stats they need to be viable in endgame content. And for that set of players, selling endgame gear could very well make sense.

But my concerns echo many others in this thread. If there is a store option throughout the gaming experience that allows someone—or even gives someone an incentive—to bypass playing the game, then what happens when a store-geared player hits endgame? Does that player have enough experience in (a) playing their class and (b) playing in groups to be effective in the most challenging content? Doesn’t this give players too much incentive to skip pieces of the game that are both entertaining and instructive? And is this really in the best interest of those players?

And if Turbine makes it possible to bypass anything that players might not like by paying cash, then what is Turbine’s incentive to give us content that is well liked by the majority of players? Why not just make everything such a huge annoying grind that they drive more people to the store to get around it? And then what kind of game are we left with? If Turbine wants to give us a powerful incentive to skip the content, why would they make any new content that is fun to play anymore? Why not just keep making more Draigochs and offering the shiny drops in the store for those who are tired of crossing their fingers and hoping they don’t hit a bug?

Ultimately I think there are so many more ways to maximize the potential of the store, keep the necessary funding flowing to game development, and not alienate the longtime player base. Housing for example, or player appearance changes along the lines of the GW store, or any number of other fluffy options that add to players’ satisfaction but do not affect the basic model of gameplay.

Originally Posted by Perenth

I am the type to accept everyone's play style, as long as they recognize it is their own play style, and I feel I am entitled to my own play style as well.

Except, of course, that nobody is stopping you from doing anything and your playstyle remains wholly unaffected, yet you are demanding that the rewards of certain types of other playstyles be made available to you despite your unwillingness to engage in the requisite playstyle. And the business model you champion that would eventually grant you what you desire does unavoidable damage to the playstyle of others and to the overall integrity of the game even as you benefit from it.

Which is why all this "to each their own" rhetoric rings so hollow. You spend a lot of time asserting things about the motivations and character of certain types of players. You are mostly wrong. Perhaps you should spend more time analyzing your own motivations and perhaps consider that they are not as altruistic as you tell yourself.

People who believe a game should have a certain amount of integrity as a game need not be "achievers" or otherwise overly concerned with their "egos." They just feel that a game with integrity needs to be recognizable as a cohesive game where people aren't just "opting" out of chunks of it via their wallets. That those who progress through it share a certain experience that is recognizable from one player to another. And that the "playing field" be equal and similar for all involved.

The store, and more to the point, your grand vision for the store where everything is for sale, is the antitheses of a game with any integrity whatsoever. It might, however, be a wonderful high-tech chatroom set in middle-earth where people can play virtual dress-up.

--H

I think it's good for Turbine to support all types of play styles, but also support the integrity within each play style.

This is why I suggested an in-game league for achievement type of players to join. Call it "Gandalf's Mission Award League" or something. Players who join that league will be declaring they will not buy any store gear, and earn their gear. Once they equip any store gear, they'd be kicked out of the league and no longer show on the player ranking, nor entitled to special achiever player mount, cosmetic clothing.

You still can not prevent players who employ farmers, but at least it can cut down on people with your playstyle who will cheat in order to gloat.

Players on this path can wear special titles, have special housing items, list goes on.

The same thing can be done for explorers. And/or socializers. Someone who is really hardcore can end up with a grand title of attaining the top of the merit for all 4 styles of play.

When you raid, if you are a picky achiever, feel free to not invite players who do not wear the achiever title. As a socializer/explorer, I would not mind inviting the non-achievers at all. In fact, I find the lesser skilled players a lot of fun to be with. They create surprise crisis that are really fun challenges, to me. I get to explore the human error side for thrill, defeat, and triumph, and have fond memories of some of the worst skilled players in EQ. A real sweetheart healer who constantly forget to heal because she was having fun chatting. We had to rescue her so many times when she got lost... fun memories for me.

As for Turbine ending up trying to just add grinds:

The MMORPG market is competitive. Other games will come in, and Turbine has a strong incentive to keep on their toes, imho.

Originally Posted by Hurin

Except, of course, that nobody is stopping you from doing anything and your playstyle remains wholly unaffected,

Not true when radiance gear and other raid gear require lengthy grinding, and can be an obstacle for a casual explorer to have fun. The casual explorer has the least amount of time, and our goal is to enjoy exploring everything possible in-game.

You are in fact trying to stop us from doing things our style, while preaching your style is the only one with integrity.

Your quoted definition on "integrity" talked about "empire" as an example. This game is not an empire. This game is an MMORPG. A sport such as golf still has room for families to purchase golf equipment and teach their kids in a park, or play miniature golf.

You are attempting to make your own playstyle the only one recognized as "legit" in this game.

Gotta go out to dinner to celebrate my friend's birthday. Take care and have fun.

Originally Posted by Perenth

This is why I suggested an in-game league for achievement type of players to join. Call it "Gandalf's Mission Award League" or something. Players who join that league will be declaring they will not buy any store gear, and earn their gear. Once they equip any store gear, they'd be kicked out of the league and no longer show on the player ranking, nor entitled to special achiever player mount, cosmetic clothing.

You still can not prevent players who employ farmers, but at least it can cut down on people with your playstyle who will cheat in order to gloat.

Players on this path can wear special titles, have special housing items, list goes on.

I think that's an ingenious and excellent idea! No sarcasm. That is actually the best compromise between the 'Store gear saves grind' and 'Store gear ruins the integrity' camps I've seen so far. And if compromise over the total removal of store gear was necessary this would appease me greatly.

Edit: Though I personally wouldn't care for a ranking, just little rewards, like cosmetics and mounts, for players who choose the path of only ever earning their stats-in game AND changes to the crafting system to make it more rewarding.

Originally Posted by Perenth

You still can not prevent players who employ farmers, but at least it can cut down on people with your playstyle who will cheat in order to gloat.

It's not about "waah he has better stats than I do", it's about keeping the game balanced.

By dropping level 28 gear on a level 20 player, level 20-27 content is going to be imbalanced. How is Turbine going to compensate? They can't really nerf the gear that's already been sold, so the only other direction they can go is to buff up the difficulty of the content.

And since they are apparently unwilling to add low level quest/crafted gear (though they did nerf the stats of low level crit/guild gear a year or two ago), that means the buffed content would essentially become locked to those without the store-bought armor.

THIS is the game I want to avoid. I literally could not care less about what others have, what I care about is how Turbine's choice to make store-exclusive OP gear is going to affect the gameplay of those who won't buy the armor.

Originally Posted by Perenth

I think it's good for Turbine to support all types of play styles, but also support the integrity within each play style.

This is why I suggested an in-game league for achievement type of players to join. Call it "Gandalf's Mission Award League" or something. Players who join that league will be declaring they will not buy any store gear, and earn their gear. Once they equip any store gear, they'd be kicked out of the league and no longer show on the player ranking, nor entitled to special achiever player mount, cosmetic clothing.

You still can not prevent players who employ farmers, but at least it can cut down on people with your playstyle who will cheat in order to gloat.

Players on this path can wear special titles, have special housing items, list goes on.

The same thing can be done for explorers. And/or socializers. Someone who is really hardcore can end up with a grand title of attaining the top of the merit for all 4 styles of play.

When you raid, if you are a picky achiever, feel free to not invite players who do not wear the achiever title. As a socializer/explorer, I would not mind inviting the non-achievers at all. In fact, I find the lesser skilled players a lot of fun to be with. They create surprise crisis that are really fun challenges, to me. I get to explore the human error side for thrill, defeat, and triumph, and have fond memories of some of the worst skilled players in EQ. A real sweetheart healer who constantly forget to heal because she was having fun chatting. We had to rescue her so many times when she got lost... fun memories for me.

As for Turbine ending up trying to just add grinds:

The MMORPG market is competitive. Other games will come in, and Turbine has a strong incentive to keep on their toes, imho.

Nothing about that actually address this fundamental issue though. . .

People who believe a game should have a certain amount of integrity as a game need not be "achievers" or otherwise overly concerned with their "egos." They just feel that a game with integrity needs to be recognizable as a cohesive game where people aren't just "opting" out of chunks of it via their wallets. That those who progress through it share a certain experience that is recognizable from one player to another. And that the "playing field" be equal and similar for all involved.

. . . your proposed solution is to officially segregate people into isolated playstyles. Which is not only plain distasteful on the face of it, but doesn't even address the fundamental principles and issues being brought up by so many others. In fact, it exacerbates them tremendously.

I'm finding it harder and harder to take a certain "playstyle" seriously when it seems more and more like the raison d'etre of that "playstyle" is to avoid (via cash) as much "play" as possible. Yet still accrue all the rewards that playing the game usually confers.

--H

Originally Posted by Lainalagos

I think that's an ingenious and excellent idea! No sarcasm. That is actually the best compromise between the 'Store gear saves grind' and 'Store gear ruins the integrity' camps I've seen so far. And if compromise over the total removal of store gear was necessary this would appease me greatly.

Thank you, sir. Take care and have fun. I gotta go out to dinner to celebrate my friend's birthday now. Happy gaming to you!

Sincerely...

Originally Posted by Perenth

Not true when radiance gear and other raid gear require lengthy grinding, and can be an obstacle for a casual explorer to have fun. The casual explorer has the least amount of time, and our goal is to enjoy exploring everything possible in-game.

Radiance has been completely gone for over a year, and none of the raids are gated by raid gear at all. I know for a fact that Dragioch and Orthanc can be completed in crafted gear, so don't try to tell me that the raid gear grind is locking you out of other content.

Unless your idea of "fun" is walking around Lagtrev with the raid gear cosmetics, your fun is not at all affected by the existence of the raid gear.

Originally Posted by StavroMuellerBeta

It's not about "waah he has better stats than I do", it's about keeping the game balanced.

By dropping level 28 gear on a level 20 player, level 20-27 content is going to be imbalanced. How is Turbine going to compensate? They can't really nerf the gear that's already been sold, so the only other direction they can go is to buff up the difficulty of the content.

And since they are apparently unwilling to add low level quest/crafted gear (though they did nerf the stats of low level crit/guild gear a year or two ago), that means the buffed content would essentially become locked to those without the store-bought armor.

THIS is the game I want to avoid. I literally could not care less about what others have, what I care about is how Turbine's choice to make store-exclusive OP gear is going to affect the gameplay of those who won't buy the armor.

Always a pleasure to read your posts.

I would frown on that stat difference a lot if it were to happen to higher level gear. Past level 30 there should be zero advantage in the gear offered in the store. At low level I can sort of sigh and say, well.. maybe, just because Turbine may feel they need to make the gear worthwhile to purchase, and low levels fly. But I would prefer if the stat is adjusted downward. Price made cheaper, and so the lower level player can keep buying more no more than crit craft gear instead of getting this type of exceptional gear.

Take care and now my friend has arrived! Later and best wishes.

Originally Posted by StavroMuellerBeta

Radiance has been completely gone for over a year, and none of the raids are gated by raid gear at all. I know for a fact that Dragioch and Orthanc can be completed in crafted gear, so don't try to tell me that the raid gear grind is locking you out of other content.

Unless your idea of "fun" is walking around Lagtrev with the raid gear cosmetics, your fun is not at all affected by the existence of the raid gear.

This true when I want to explore the level 65 raids? Bye! I'll check your answer when I get back.