Thread: Nerf minstrels

Technically it was a bugfix but giving Minstrels even more damage is pretty laughable.

Originally Posted by lutemaster

I am playing/played a minstrel myself, and I completely lost interest in the class since the Rise of Isengard update.

Prior to the changes, the minstrel used to be the heart of the fellowship; the healer who would dedicate himself to keep his fellows alive through thick and thin.

The minstrel has always been a class about healing and that is also the reason why I decided to play the class.

Due to the recent updates in Rise of Isengard I am very sad to see that the minstrel has completely lost its identity.

So what are we really talking about?

- You can deal some extreme damage, while at the same time heal yourself, even though you are in war-speech stance. You can use temporary morale bubbles, fear opponents, play dead and buff yourself (and the whole fellowship) to do even more damage while you can put temporary morale bubbles on them too. In addition you can stun, you have a high critical payout and you can AoE attack with effects that both damages and slow a large area. You also can heal yourself by hitting stuff!

- You can heal several thousand points of morale quickly, without any induction setbacks, you can bubble yourself with temporary morale boosts, and even bubble your fellowship members with the same. In addition you can lower the amount of damage taken to your whole fellowship while increasing the outgoing healing-rate for yourself and all other healers in your fellowship. You can also use some potent healing-over-time and instantly lower your threat towards monsters, or even play dead if things get out of hand. You can also play a C#m as an overture and you'll bring everyone around you back to life.

See the two points above, and combine them into one, without any drawbacks, without any induction while switching between the stances; that's a minstrel in a nut-shell.

For me, the minstrel is no longer a healing-class, it is a flute-playing hybrid rune-keeper who has no attunements to worry about.

*grammatical errors edited out to be replaced with even moar badder ones*

+ rep

Well said. Sadly, it will get ignored, as with the rest of the PvMP forum.

Originally Posted by Ironher

Srsly ### is that 3-4k crits with slow, stun, selfheal, shield etc..
Did you ever meet a group of 6 minis lol insta death!

Do you honest to god think that Turbine should give minstrels 1/6 of their power so that you can go on with your faceroll infamy spree? Minstrels wear light armour. They have one melee wep. They're SUPPOSED to have insane damage, otherwise they would die every single time. Turbine isn't going to nerf the Minstrel class because they decided to group up and zerg you.

Minis have light armor yes, but any well-played minstrel has very good survivability. I think the point ppl are making is that survivability and dps shouldn't go together. Hunters have low survivability and high dps. The ironic thing is that a well-played minstrel will survive better than a hunter (medium armor) if under attack. Light armors should be dangerous when alive but fall easy when under pressure.
But if you really think minstrels are balanced then I'd suggest you try to play a creep for a while. Try bringing a creep, ranked however high you like, against a good minstrel. You could try 1v1 or for that matter 2 creeps vs the minstrel, provided that the minstrel is actually well-played.
Having a hard time imagining what why minstrels would have insane damage though. Again take the hunter as an example. Hunters can dps, so would great heals for a hunter be in order as their survivability is low, even though they're at the top in dps?
Minstrels are meant primarily as healers, but I think it ok that they can deal good damage when in WS. Problem is when they can heal and deal out large damage, since that's survivability + dps and is unbalanced compared to other classes. Also there's very little way of dealing with a minstrel since minstrels now have a skill that cures silence and prevents silence for 20 secs after that. Every class should have a weakness and a well-played minstrel is more or less without one (light armor yes, but unless you 1shot, which creeps can't, or knock-down while killing, which requires either a number of creeps or a minstrel with unusually low health, you'll likely end up having to deal with the self-heals).

Usually I'd say buff creeps instead of nerfing freeps, but minstrels are very powerful compared to other freeps too, which is why a nerf even for PvE might be justified. When freep classes are more powerful than creeps then buff the creeps. When some freep classes are more powerful than the other freep classes, I'd say nerf to reach a balance of freepclasses. (compare minstrels to rks for example as both serve the same roles)

Originally Posted by Cogwheelmatrix

They're SUPPOSED to have insane damage, insane healing and crazy cooldowns...all useable at the same time with next to no downside! In fact minstrels are rk's with no attunement requirement and better cd's!

You've convinced me...minstrels aren't OP at all.

otherwise they would die every single time.

Weird, I seem to recall minstrels doing just fine in WS pre ROI. The entire point of switching to a dps stance/spec - more dps less survivability, easier to kill and be killed. Minstrels however now have a negligible trade off for going WS.

Originally Posted by Winterfell

3 Minis / 2 Champs / 1 Capt is a personal favorite.

More to the OP's note about Mini's being OP it was clear that was going to be the case as soon as the Dev notes came out. Any well played Mini is as close to indestructable an opponent as you are going to find out in the Moors. I literally seek out 2+ -vs- 1's for the challenge as 1v1's are an absolute joke.

I have posted in the past that having 7K using 1 pot, 1 Chord of Salvation, 1 Soliliquy of Song and a Bubble a Mini has about 25K effective morale in the first 30seconds of any fight. That does not include 2 more CoS heals and a Coda Heal you could get off. That is pretty rediculous when you can have 32K plus effective Morale in the first 30secs of a fight. I like it when I am raid buffed to more than 11K makes things even more fun to laugh at.

I have posted (along with other Moors Mini's) that we would like to see a Moors only cap on heals based on stance. My recommendations were: No stance = 100% self heals / Harmony Stance = 75% self heals / War Speech = 50-60% self heals. This would at least make things more competitive out there. Damage-wise yes we hit hard and our current Coda damage is actually going to be getting an increase because it is bugged low atm. It doesn't need to be increased but it will, my apologies.

Personally I have been playing Mini since the beginning and this is my main so I am going to stick with it. If I get accused of EZModing/GodModing, so be it. Good luck to all the creepies out there while Mini's run around free to do as they wish with little regard to there surroundings.

If you want to make it more challenging for yourself, don't use your high-ranked Moors gear, pots, brand, etc.

I enjoy playing my low-ranked Mini in the Moors but she's not as OP as you make all Minis out to be. I think Minis are fine where they are.

Originally Posted by Zed2

I think Minis are fine where they are.

The highest I can hit on my r6 warg is around 1k, from behind out of stealth. The freep main healing class rarely hits below that number. I do wonder how devs can even program such a difference and find it normal ..

Originally Posted by Zed2

If you want to make it more challenging for yourself, don't use your high-ranked Moors gear, pots, brand, etc.

I enjoy playing my low-ranked Mini in the Moors but she's not as OP as you make all Minis out to be. I think Minis are fine where they are.

Rank has zero relevance here. Especially since the PvP armor is utter trash.

Originally Posted by Cogwheelmatrix

They're SUPPOSED to have insane damage

Originally Posted by HaldamirTinuviel

Those humans look surprisingly like ponies.




@ Zed2: So it's fine that a healing class can do insane DPS on the run while being very sturdy?

QQ more creeps and learn to play!!!

Originally Posted by Anoir

QQ more creeps and learn to play!!!

Originally Posted by Sezneg

Yeah, it's rough when your class gets a boost like that and suddenly you find yourself playing the FOTM/OP class. I remember that early mirkwood with my spider. You'll cop a lot of rubbish from other players.

I don't doubt that the devs are well aware of the issue. A moors specific healing debuff is a good idea, but the devs had made it pretty obvious by not putting simple things like this into place that they prefer to keep things as close to how they work outside the moors as in; the moors specific freep changes are very few (DF, Fervor heal penalty not applying in moors, captain summoning and some lothlorien gear that couldn't be equipped in the moors). Wouldn't be surprised if they were working on a more solid solution that was applied evenly both in pve/pvp... not because it's the easiest thing to do, but because that's the way they do it whenever possible.

My personal favorite is some fail burg called a pre-f2p rank 12 spider store bought after he lost to him post f2p.

I haven't read anything but the title of the thread, be warned.

But...

XXX scored a devastating hit with Coda of Fury on Pikacho for 4,196 Light damage to Morale.

That was done with me having 9943 armour value on my warg. Wich is more or less the armour value I had before with my war leader (who never got a hit like that before).

LOL

Turbine keeps amusing me.

Originally Posted by Zed2

If you want to make it more challenging for yourself, don't use your high-ranked Moors gear, pots, brand, etc.

I enjoy playing my low-ranked Mini in the Moors but she's not as OP as you make all Minis out to be. I think Minis are fine where they are.

You cannot ignore the maximum potential of a class when determining balance. Relying on players to hold back is foolish, unsatisfying, and impractical. What kind of victory do I win by beating an enemy who had a trump card but decided not to play it?

Regardless, you shouldn't have to hold back to create a challenge for yourself. A competent dev team should be able to maintain some semblance of balance.

Originally Posted by Cogwheelmatrix

Do you honest to god think that Turbine should give minstrels 1/6 of their power so that you can go on with your faceroll infamy spree? Minstrels wear light armour. They have one melee wep. They're SUPPOSED to have insane damage, otherwise they would die every single time. Turbine isn't going to nerf the Minstrel class because they decided to group up and zerg you.

Have you actually fought a minstrel? They're not supposed to have insane damage, they're a healing class. Yes, they have War Speech to boost their dps which is a good idea, but having the ability to dish out massive damage at the same time as healing themselves is beyond OP.

Actually, try and kill a minstrel as a weaver.

Originally Posted by Stevo6

Have you actually fought a minstrel? They're not supposed to have insane damage, they're a healing class. Yes, they have War Speech to boost their dps which is a good idea, but having the ability to dish out massive damage at the same time as healing themselves is beyond OP.

Actually, try and kill a minstrel as a weaver.

I did, on several occasions with several different minstrels. LOL what a joke. I even tried duoing a mini while he had npc's on him in grothum. He was tanking us, the NPC's and still doing really well on DPS. Even while I was cc'ing him, power draining, etc. This class needs more buffs so the freeps come out on nothing but mini's, they raid up, and cause the creeps to quit playing this game. Maybe then the devs will pay some attention to wth is going on.

I have to say this thread is a bit weak.

All freeps are deadly, not just the minstrel. Is being mezzed, stunned, and ganked by a single burg OP? How about hunters that one-shot you with Heart-Seeker being OP? RK with Epic Conclusion? Champ with AoE stuns (x2), Bubbles (x2), and root immunity sprint?

Minstrel healing is already reduced in Warspeech due to multiple factors which have been detailed in other threads. It's a mechanic of the class and smart creeps can beat it. Two wargs with chained silence is deadly to a minstrel. Two BAs with the slow arrow, flame DoT, and a couple VTs are deadly. Spider DoTs with web and energy drain... almost deadly. But these are skilled creeps that know how to play together and smartly against different freep classes. Keep in mind there are creep advantageous matchups, and creep disadvantageous matchups. It's not realistic to assume each monster can balance against each freep and vice-versa.

I've been beaten by solo R9+ BAs on my minstrel -- maybe this is because an R9+ BA is actually a powerful creep. However I've never been beaten by a solo warg of any rank... yet (some have gotten pretty close!).

If you are expecting your R0 to R6 creep to go solo a mini then you're in for a rough go. This is true for a R0 to R6 creep soloing ANY freep. It's an inherent weakness installed into the creep classes. Personally I HATE it. I find the curve from epic fail to competent on monsters to be too steep. If anything you should have a serious thread about the creep advancement system which keeps monsters from being competitive until an incredible amount of grind is completed.

Originally Posted by lotrojim

I've been beaten by solo R9+ BAs on my minstrel -- maybe this is because an R9+ BA is actually a powerful creep. However I've never been beaten by a solo warg of any rank... yet (some have gotten pretty close!).

Serious question. Did you lag when you died to a solo BA?

Originally Posted by lotrojim

I've been beaten by solo R9+ BAs on my minstrel -- maybe this is because an R9+ BA is actually a powerful creep. However I've never been beaten by a solo warg of any rank... yet (some have gotten pretty close!).

cool story bro. But rly? How can you beat BA? rly? how, please explain it

Its you, its you, its all for you. Everything I do, tell you all the time, heaven is a place on earth where you. Tell me all the things you want to do. I heard that you like the bad wargs honey, is that true?

Originally Posted by PropJoe

Serious question. Did you lag when you died to a solo BA?

Solo R9+ BA...

No lag that I recall. The last BA caught me instead of the other way around and got some nice crits (I've been hit with 5.5k VTs). After a bubble and CoS, mini's are down to induction based healz. So you can sit their and heal w/o DPS (since you are inducting), or DPS w/o heal until CoS comes back up.

If not in WS then there are some other instant healz which are very powerful, but DPS is severly nerfed (by over 50%). Jumping out of WS is easy, but getting back in is near impossible in a 1-on-1 fight.

Originally Posted by lotrojim

Solo R9+ BA...

No lag that I recall. The last BA caught me instead of the other way around and got some nice crits (I've been hit with 5.5k VTs). After a bubble and CoS, mini's are down to induction based healz. So you can sit their and heal w/o DPS (since you are inducting), or DPS w/o heal until CoS comes back up.

If not in WS then there are some other instant healz which are very powerful, but DPS is severly nerfed (by over 50%). Jumping out of WS is easy, but getting back in is near impossible in a 1-on-1 fight.

Step 1: Have at least 7K morale

Step 2: If caught unawares by a BA who most likely went VT, Fire Arrow, Head Shot and are down 3-4K; immediately CoS, Heal Pot, SoS, Wound Pot then flop.

Step 3: Get your bearings and locate BA

Step 4: Make sure CoS is up again, get up and PC stun.
A) If stunned...run to them and ballad up then TEoB, Cry of Valar, AotFP then Coda
B) Not stunned...Cry of the Wizard, run to them, Cry of Valar, CoS, Cry of Chorus, AotFP then Coda

Step 5: Get in them, weaving in and out using Call to Second Age and Coffee (if used) to keep speed up

Step 6: Tactical nukeage using SoS, CoS and AotFP+Coda as necessary

Step 7: Profit

Hope this helps you a bit the next time.

Edit* Use your fear to get back into WS. Dont try after first fear...use that to heal as necessary and see if they use a pot.

Originally Posted by lotrojim

I have to say this thread is a bit weak.

All freeps are deadly, not just the minstrel. Is being mezzed, stunned, and ganked by a single burg OP? How about hunters that one-shot you with Heart-Seeker being OP? RK with Epic Conclusion? Champ with AoE stuns (x2), Bubbles (x2), and root immunity sprint?

Minstrel healing is already reduced in Warspeech due to multiple factors which have been detailed in other threads. It's a mechanic of the class and smart creeps can beat it. Two wargs with chained silence is deadly to a minstrel. Two BAs with the slow arrow, flame DoT, and a couple VTs are deadly. Spider DoTs with web and energy drain... almost deadly. But these are skilled creeps that know how to play together and smartly against different freep classes. Keep in mind there are creep advantageous matchups, and creep disadvantageous matchups. It's not realistic to assume each monster can balance against each freep and vice-versa.

I've been beaten by solo R9+ BAs on my minstrel -- maybe this is because an R9+ BA is actually a powerful creep. However I've never been beaten by a solo warg of any rank... yet (some have gotten pretty close!).

If you are expecting your R0 to R6 creep to go solo a mini then you're in for a rough go. This is true for a R0 to R6 creep soloing ANY freep. It's an inherent weakness installed into the creep classes. Personally I HATE it. I find the curve from epic fail to competent on monsters to be too steep. If anything you should have a serious thread about the creep advancement system which keeps monsters from being competitive until an incredible amount of grind is completed.

You sure sound like a mini that's scared of getting nerfed .. Pointing a finger to other classes? Yes, they have high dps. But 3 of the 4 classes you name are supposed to be DPS machines. At least hunter and rk have some squishyness going with that dps. And burgs are strong, but also not impossible to kill. Yet you think a healer class should be both on top of the DPS and survivability list?

Originally Posted by Trium

You sure sound like a mini that's scared of getting nerfed .. Pointing a finger to other classes? Yes, they have high dps. But 3 of the 4 classes you name are supposed to be DPS machines. At least hunter and rk have some squishyness going with that dps. And burgs are strong, but also not impossible to kill. Yet you think a healer class should be both on top of the DPS and survivability list?

I am scared of "nerf"... no shame in saying that. We are not on top of the DPS (hunters, RKs) and not on top of the survivability (guards, wardens, burgs). Do you disagree with this?

Don't judge the power of a freep classes with a low rank monster experience. The monster advancement system sucks and every freep is a killer until a monster gets to high rank (which I think is an unreasonable and unenjoyable grind on all my monster toons).

With all my "awsomeness" as a mini, I still get beat by creeps. In groups we are often the first to die (unless we have a guardian sheild-wall and he in turn has LM stun immunity). Mini's are not unstoppable which is what this thread is trying to sell.

Nice one Sera!!!!!

Originally Posted by lotrojim

We are not on top of the DPS (hunters, RKs) and not on top of the survivability (guards, wardens, burgs). Do you disagree with this?

Don't judge the power of a freep classes with a low rank monster experience. The monster advancement system sucks and every freep is a killer until a monster gets to high rank (which I think is an unreasonable and unenjoyable grind on all my monster toons).

With all my "awesomeness" as a mini, I still get beat by creeps. In groups we are often the first to die (unless we have a guardian sheild-wall and he in turn has LM stun immunity). Mini's are not unstoppable which is what this thread is trying to sell.

1.- Top DPS classes are considered like this because they can deal the highest amount of damage on a certain amount of time (fights), not because the numbers a skill can deal. Lore-masters are a proof of this.

2.- Do not think armour = survivability. The minstrel is currently a class that can self heal on the move, restore his own power, defend itself with morale bubbles, boost its speed and CC while dealing high amounts of damage (and all of this on the move), all at the same time. On a PVE environment this might not sound > tanks, but on a PVP environment it is.

3.- Most creep classes cannot improve their survavility further once they get to rank 5. You can pierce the same damage through a rank 5 creep as good as you'll do with a rank 15.

4.- Being renamed as immortal is the only thing that minstrels are waiting for. Of course you can die: a bad player, afk, outnumbered, etc, are one of the reasons why. 1 vs 1, the odds are always at minstrel's side because a BAD designed class. It is not the players fault, but the irresponsible developers.

5.- Mini's ARE unstoppable 1 vs 1 on the right hands. Other classes are not (specially not creep classes). When you have 2 coins and the rest have 1, just because a class design, it's obvious there is something wrong. Or are you suggesting everyone who wants to enjoy playing pvp should roll a Minstrel?

Originally Posted by lotrojim

Solo R9+ BA...

No lag that I recall. The last BA caught me instead of the other way around and got some nice crits (I've been hit with 5.5k VTs). After a bubble and CoS, mini's are down to induction based healz. So you can sit their and heal w/o DPS (since you are inducting), or DPS w/o heal until CoS comes back up.

If not in WS then there are some other instant healz which are very powerful, but DPS is severly nerfed (by over 50%). Jumping out of WS is easy, but getting back in is near impossible in a 1-on-1 fight.

So the only way for a BA to win against a Minstrel is to get lucky with crits and catch them unprepared? And if you sparred the same BA 10 times how many times do you think you'd lose?
I don't have a Minstrel so I'm actually curious.

Originally Posted by lotrojim

I am scared of "nerf"... no shame in saying that. We are not on top of the DPS (hunters, RKs) and not on top of the survivability (guards, wardens, burgs). Do you disagree with this?

Yes.

Guardians, Wardens and Burglars are way easier to kill 1v1 than a Minstrel. It's only against a big zerg where Guardians have higher survivability. Against smaller zergs Minstrels are still way more powerful. Because when Guardains/Wardens/Burglars go into survivability mode they can't really do much DPS. They have to choose. Minstrels don't, they can do it all.

Originally Posted by lotrojim

Solo R9+ BA...

No lag that I recall. The last BA caught me instead of the other way around and got some nice crits (I've been hit with 5.5k VTs).

If not in WS then there are some other instant healz which are very powerful, but DPS is severly nerfed (by over 50%). Jumping out of WS is easy, but getting back in is near impossible in a 1-on-1 fight.

5.5k VT's? I have heard some pretty ridiculous claims, but this one takes the cake. I am not familiar with any other R9+ BA besides myself who regularly records their damage and takes note of any high devs/crits because of ridiculous claims made first about Revenge.

Use a second fear to get into WS after they have burned their pot which has a 2 minute cool down on the first fear.

Overall I agree Minis are the hardest to defeat, even ahead of Champions and Burgs

Basically it is godmode and anyone who loses a 1 vs 1 as a Mini needs to uninstall and check out the Nintendo Wii

LOTRO Ministrel Demo Video

Originally Posted by PhantomPunkk

Really...my healing abilities are barely affected AT ALL when I gear for WS, b/c hey, you can swap gear! I am always switching my LIs depending on if I am using a DPS skill or a heal. If you trait Life-Singer and IRtS, you remain a tremendously effective healer even specced 5 red line. You lose what, the 10% outgoing heal effect modifier and pretty much nothing else, which is more than negated by simply using AotTA.

The old 'tail' duration on WS wasn't much of a deterrent, but it is better than none. Anyone who was half decent used a switch LI right before turning on WS to halve the duration so you can seriously mitigate the downsides of going WS even then at zero cost to yourself.

It takes nothing short of an act of god or a huge zerg to kill my Mins out there. And even that can be bested most of the time by just feigning, hitting my brand and lol-ing away as I heal myself on the run @ 110% run speed. The only time a Minny dies is when they make a huge mistake and face absurd odds.

I can't believe how dull and OP the class has become.

You guys should probably mention the skills that hit for 3-4k are either AoE (and can be reset to be used often), or have a 10s CD.

You've lost two stars, I can no longer trust your opinion and must disregard and ignore anything you say from henceforth.

Originally Posted by Louvre

2.- Do not think armour = survivability. The minstrel is currently a class that can self heal on the move, restore his own power, defend itself with morale bubbles, boost its speed and CC while dealing high amounts of damage (and all of this on the move), all at the same time. On a PVE environment this might not sound > tanks, but on a PVP environment it is.

Armour is survivability, as is high morale as are heals as are avoidances (whatever's left after finesse, which is 0 for light armour classes), it's not a matter of one or another, they all are. At the end of the day, a guardian will have about 50% more morale than a minstrel and take roughly half the damage they would if even that, which means they can take roughly thrice the punishment right off the bat, and it's all passive, meaning no time spent healing/bubbling/whatever. Despite that they can still keep themselves afloat: warrior's heart, morale pots, possibly catch a breath, each of which will last them twice as long again as equivalent healing on a light armour class would. And then they can pledge and charge, and possibly reset it all for a laugh. God forbid they get outside heals on top of that.

Can make a case about champions too, but I don't think that's necessary.

Oh dear ..

Yes, the Minstrel might just have a little less dps then a hunter. Yes, the Minstrel might just live 5 secs less then a guardian. Fact stays that they have BOTH one of the best dps AND survivability.

Minstrels saying there's nothing wrong balance wise here, are just ignorant if you ask me ..

I´ve seen minstrels given the shaft for too long, therefore I will never call for a nerf to them.


Thanks a lot @Winterfell.


And wake up, folks, all is working as intended, next patch will bring another freep FOTM.

Originally Posted by DorianFalkenmond

all is working as intended.

all is working as intended.

What we know about a minstrel is¿?

"Middle-earth is a land deeply infused with music, and true Minstrels are skilled at tapping into that power. They weave songs and tales so stirring that their companions' morale will not fail, and they will be driven to perform greater feats of prowess. They can even utter words of true power and ward against the forces of darkness with their Anthems."

I'm only know one minstrel idea got the devs...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...v=-Lu5udzD_28#!

Songs and dps... Steven Seagal inspired minstrels class...

Originally Posted by Jaggahl

What we know about a minstrel is¿?

"Middle-earth is a land deeply infused with music, and true Minstrels are skilled at tapping into that power. They weave songs and tales so stirring that their companions' morale will not fail, and they will be driven to perform greater feats of prowess. They can even utter words of true power and ward against the forces of darkness with their Anthems."

I'm only know one minstrel idea got the devs...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...v=-Lu5udzD_28#!

Songs and dps... Steven Seagal inspired minstrels class...

Damn you for making me one of 13837 people who have seen this...this is worse than a Dev nerfing us into weavers You're so cruel.