Thread: Some worrying behaviour

So I was in globallff channel yesterday as I always am, and on occasion there has been the odd heated chat but what I saw yesterday bordered on abuse and harassment and was quite ugly to read.

It was along the lines of a f2p mini either looking to join or starting a raid cant remember which now, the long and short of it was he only had 2 traits equipped, this lead to some rather, in my view unnecessary abuse of the player in question, one even told him he shouldn't be playing unless he was paying, that he was useless at the game etc etc thankfully a few did stick up for him but I think he had left by then, cant say I blame him if he did.

Now I've not been a mmo player for all that long, FPS has been my game of choice for many years and you get used to the abuse in those kind of games its just well, to be expected.
I remember when I first gave this game a go, it was f2p that got me in. I was a total noob where it came to mmo's, I asked a few mates to try and and 2 of them stuck with it and we all got hooked and went VIP. I recall being helped by a few people along the way, most going out of their way to help. No one screamed OMG NOOB at me though I'm sure some despaired at my silly questions.

I myself now try to be helpful to newer players or just those in need of a hand. I hope it is just a phase but lately I have noticed a decisively "Elitist" behaviour popping up in game where unless you fill certain criteria your just not going to be included or, as was the case in chat your traits are s**t and your only f2p go away and only come back when you can pay for the game.

For the most part people are still friendly and helpful but this snarky chat of late seems to be a worrying trend I can only hope it will be reversed soon.

God I hate that kind of people... just because he is paying it doesn't mean he has some unlimited knowledge of the game, or has the right to judge free players and behave like that. I can guarantee you that being VIP doesn't mean you are better at the game. Frankly, I know a lot of both VIP's and free players, and I can tell you that sometimes free players are much better both generally and on specifics, while on the other hand, VIPs had no clue about what they were doing quite often.

I certainly hope that this doesn't scare the said player away from the game. I think that this kind of harassment should be punishable.

The raid was Orthanc and I think the discussion was not about this guy being f2p, was more about he only had 2 class traits, 2 virtues and 1 legendary available. That means he cant play the class well at all (no capstone, no class bonus, no Zeal/Valour/Tolerance/Fidelity combo etc), ergo he will not be useful in Orthanc. Cant blame the raid leader there, tbh.

Originally Posted by Juanra

The raid was Orthanc and I think the discussion was not about this guy being f2p, was more about he only had 2 class traits, 2 virtues and 1 legendary available. That means he cant play the class well at all (no capstone, no class bonus, no Zeal/Valour/Tolerance/Fidelity combo etc), ergo he will not be useful in Orthanc. Cant blame the raid leader there, tbh.

I gather from some of the chat he had done several instances before and had done ok as a healer. Whatever happened to never judge a book by its cover.
It seems the rush to get all the glittery stuff has clouded some peoples judgement and made them forget that this is a game where people are supposed to help each other out. Along that path, many have taken to be quite abusive and personal about it.

Originally Posted by Juanra

Cant blame the raid leader there, tbh.

It wasn't actually anything to do with the raid leader. Basically someone started a PUG ToO Raid. He said he'd like to come if possible but all of a sudden, he started ranting and have a direct go at this minstrel.

Now just because the minstrel in question didn't have all virtues and that, that doesn't mean they couldn't go ToO, I once did OD Shadow Wing T2 with 5+ people being ftp but going off topic here.

There was no reason to go and abuse that guy. After so many minutes the minstrel left and went offline due it the shouting he had been given. I felt so sorry for him.

I hate people that do that and it was just pathetic. It's a game, you play to have fun, that doesn't mean you MUST pay to play on a free to play game.



On another note, about 10 minutes after this discussion there was a hour and a half long debate about politics and then what countries would go to war with each other? I mean W T *? This is a game, if you want to discuss that, do it in your own time, in tells, on skype, not somewhere it will annoy and bother other people.

-Thore.

Originally Posted by MrSandman70

I gather from some of the chat he had done several instances before and had done ok as a healer. Whatever happened to never judge a book by its cover.
It seems the rush to get all the glittery stuff has clouded some peoples judgement and made them forget that this is a game where people are supposed to help each other out. Along that path, many have taken to be quite abusive and personal about it.

Instances as raids? I doubt it.

Only 2 class traits and 1 legendary means that you are VERY limited to play that character in raids.

I was f2p until lvl 54 and I had all possible traits unlocked at the time. Being F2P is no excuse.

Originally Posted by Thorebane

It wasn't actually anything to do with the raid leader. Basically someone started a PUG ToO Raid. He said he'd like to come if possible but all of a sudden, he started ranting and have a direct go at this minstrel.

Now just because the minstrel in question didn't have all virtues and that, that doesn't mean they couldn't go ToO, I once did OD Shadow Wing T2 with 5+ people being ftp but going off topic here.

There was no reason to go and abuse that guy. After so many minutes the minstrel left and went offline due it the shouting he had been given. I felt so sorry for him.

I hate people that do that and it was just pathetic. It's a game, you play to have fun, that doesn't mean you MUST pay to play on a free to play game.



On another note, about 10 minutes after this discussion there was a hour and a half long debate about politics and then what countries would go to war with each other? I mean W T *? This is a game, if you want to discuss that, do it in your own time, in tells, on skype, not somewhere it will annoy and bother other people.

-Thore.

Im pretty sure those 5 f2p players did have all class and legendary traits available in OD, right? Thats not the same.

Im not defending or attacking anyone here, just saying that I understand people that don't want to do Orthanc with a mini that has only 2 class traits.

P.S: U mean fear wing?

Originally Posted by Juanra

Instances as raids? I doubt it.

Only 2 class traits and 1 legendary means that you are VERY limited to play that character in raids.

I was f2p until lvl 54 and I had all possible traits unlocked at the time. Being F2P is no excuse.

So rude personal abuse of a player is ok because he doesn't have all the whistles and bells and he deserves it?

Originally Posted by Juanra

I was f2p until lvl 54 and I had all possible traits unlocked at the time. Being F2P is no excuse.

it's true that it really isn't hard to get your trait slots unlocked, even as f2p.
but still, being VIP doesn't give you the right to harass someone to the point of him logging out.

Originally Posted by MrSandman70

So rude personal abuse of a player is ok because he doesn't have all the whistles and bells and he deserves it?

I didnt say that. Quote me if I did.

Originally Posted by MrSandman70

I have noticed a decisively "Elitist" behaviour popping up in game where unless you fill certain criteria

Hard content requires characters to be better prepared. Is that elitist? Yeah, right. If you don't give a damn about your own character, you cant blame people for not inviting you to their raids.

Originally Posted by Kaldenas

it's true that it really isn't hard to get your trait slots unlocked, even as f2p.
but still, being VIP doesn't give you the right to harass someone to the point of him logging out.

Im not defending that guy, Cil lol. But logging out seemed a bit drastic, tbh. Ignore button exists for a reason, and you can always report the man for harrassment too.

My main point here is because the player in question didn't have all the top setup and was f2p he was subject to abuse from other players.
Every player should have the opportunity to take part in all aspects of the game being excluded because of gear and ability to pay for a game should not count, a little more tolerance from people would help I'm sure.

Is it the bee all and end all if you wipe in a raid/skirm or die a couple of times, does it really matter that much? I ask that honestly as I don't really know. Is it that important?

Originally Posted by MrSandman70

So rude personal abuse of a player is ok because he doesn't have all the whistles and bells and he deserves it?

Absolutely not. there is no excuse for that type of abuse in game. f2p was inplemented by the designers so they must feel that it is possible to raid with only the traits that are available to f2p. Will it be more difficult? Yes. But I'm certain that it can be done if the players themselves are skilled.

I had a thought about this subject as it seems that its going to keep rearing its ugly head. Why don't some of the f2p people start their own kinships? Kinships that only accept f2p persons. Then if you just organized raids within your kinship you could completely eliminate having to deal with VIPs that don't like that you only have 2 traits. They would have to figure out what to do if someone upgrades their account to VIP but that could all be discussed up front by the officers. Just a thought....

Player harassment is wrong. However, when you join a raid group you are expected to contribute and do your fair share. Orthanc is hard and a player without traits, racials and virtues unlocked is seriously underpowered and I don't believe they could pull their weight. A boxed copy of soa could be purchased for under $10 and entering the code gives a month of vip that could be used to unlock traits, virtues and racials on all characters very cheaply. F2p players can grind to unlock slots, it is not that hard, I did it on my first (main character).

Unfortunately you get these kind of people in all games.

Originally Posted by MrSandman70

Every player should have the opportunity to take part in all aspects of the game being excluded because of gear and ability to pay for a game should not count, a little more tolerance from people would help I'm sure.

When max lvl was 60, would you have joined a Watcher raid with 4 people being lvl 48? Why not? they should have the right to play it, dont they?

Originally Posted by MrSandman70

Is it the bee all and end all if you wipe in a raid/skirm or die a couple of times, does it really matter that much? I ask that honestly as I don't really know. Is it that important?

Sometimes in hard content is not dying a couple of times and finally get it done. Sometimes is just wiping all over again and never do it.

Originally Posted by Lizzi123

f2p was inplemented by the designers so they must feel that it is possible to raid with only the traits that are available to f2p.

That is just not true.

F2P was a marketing thing. An attempt to increase the number of players, get them hooked with the game and turn'em into suscribers. It worked for me and many other players. They made leveling easier because of f2p but end game content is a different story.

Raids are not designed to be done by a group where all people is only using 2 class traits and 1 legendary.

I think were moving away from the main point here So I'll ask again is it really ok to personally abuse players in chat simply because of how they are setup and if they pay for the game.

MrSandman70, just do what I did.

Use glff untill you've built up a good set of friends/strong players. Then make a free guild website you can all use, your own ingame channel and get a voice server (teamspeak is my preferred client).

Then /leavechannel globallff never to return.

The channel is 90% pissants anyway, you're better off without it.


-velve-

Originally Posted by Tennent

MrSandman70, just do what I did.

Use glff untill you've built up a good set of friends/strong players. Then make a free guild website you can all use, your own ingame channel and get a voice server (teamspeak is my preferred client).

Then /leavechannel globallff never to return.

The channel is 90% pissants anyway, you're better off without it.


-velve-

Alas that would be throwing out the baby with the bathwater as there are still good friendly,funny people in there.

I would say that;

1) It is not right for some players to insult other players regardless of the circumstances! Just saying that you don't think that his character might be ill equipped and you are looking for someone better able to ...... should have been enough.

2) Just because someone has better toys than you doesn't mean that he can't do a better job than you! I have lost count of the number of times my RK has pulled someone's butt out of the fire and no-one can say that he doesn't pull his weight. However my RK has NO virtues or traits of any kind slotted. Admittedly I only do skirms in the 30-40 range with him, but that doesn't negate that fact that he is "ill equipped" for skirmishing. Nor has it affected his ability to do the job required up to now, which includes rescuing characters who are fully equipped and traited.

3) The poor bloke may have logged out because of how he was treated and not known how to report harassment or the ignore function, I know that I never even knew about the ignore function until recently so how would a new player would know?

Originally Posted by MrSandman70

I think were moving away from the main point here So I'll ask again is it really ok to personally abuse players in chat simply because of how they are setup and if they pay for the game.

Getting back to your main point. No, it is not okay to treat other players like that. Even if a raid group should decide they don't want to group with a f2p there is no reason for it to become abusive.

@MrSandman70 - reading the thread, I don't think anyone here thinks that it's ok to be abusive towards someone based on their status in a game. I liked your OP though, and gave it a +1 rep as it's really nice to see that the general community standards of Gilrain are as important to server members as they ever have been.

Gilrain genuinely is the nicest game environment I believe exists - I only have limited alternatives to compare it to, but listening to the experiences of many others, they do always support my feeling on this. I'm confident that the one or two idiots in global you are referring to are the exception to the general rule.

However I do understand the points Juanra is making. He's not justifying bad behaviour, but he is explaining the reasons why people wouldn't want to raid with someone that hasn't put in the effort. Raiding is a group activity to which everyone should contribute, not just go along for the ride, relying upon others to do the work. Thinking that it's ok to raid with a completely ill equipped character is silly and actually quite selfish and lazy (although I'm sure on this minstrel's part, it was more due to lack of knowledge and understanding).

The raid leaders in H&G, the officers, and the class leaders spend literally DAYS of their lives encouraging/begging/pleading/explaining and convincing our member raiders to ensure that their toons are raid ready. This is based on wanting to have a fun, enjoyable and hopefully successful raid - and in the most part it works. When you repeatedly wipe because of the one weak link in the chain, it's a massive and sometimes rather demoralising waste of another 7/9/11/15/23/24 people's time. So those of us writing endless posts, tells, whispers etc on the subject are doing it to ensure that the whole group has a great time.

Therefore, I can understand the reasoning of people who say they wouldn't want to raid with someone that's not prepared. Their time is precious; its unfair to expect them to waste it on something that's guaranteed to fail (don't get me wrong, I'm all for trying things and pushing boundaries and making things more challenging... but there has to be a line!). IT certainly doesn't justify being rude or abusive - I can't think of an online situation at all where that behaviour could be considered "ok".

Sadly though, wherever you go in real life or online, elitism exists. Hell, my own kin/guild has a reputation for being elitist but I guess we're picky about who we accept based on slightly different criteria - we don't base our decisions on in game characters but characteristics of the real person behind the toon. With us - a raid place is first come first served, but for certain raids - usually the most recently updated content - we'll set minimums for toon stats/traits etc. We do it simply to ensure one or two people aren't spoiling the experience for everyone else who has made the effort (and to stop the raid leader from slitting their wrists).

And finally - as an example of quite how elitist people can be.... in SWTOR you can join a pvp instance at level 10+. This means you can end up playing in a team with, and against a team of level 50s (level cap) and your stats are adjusted to level the playing field, meaning its down to skill, gear and consumables. FOUR DAYS after the game had been released on early launch, and a day before it even went on general release, I joined a pvp battle at level 15 or something and got SCREAMED at by a level 50 to "#### lame noob l2p" etc etc before the battle even began! At the end, the stats showed I was the second highest contributor in terms of damage and healing, and this tw*t was in the bottom two, despite being level cap.

The moral of the story is... there are idiots everywhere and I guess when the other servers fill up with them, we'll have to allow some room for them on Gilrain too

Originally Posted by MrSandman70

I think were moving away from the main point here So I'll ask again is it really ok to personally abuse players in chat simply because of how they are setup and if they pay for the game.

I've just read the thread and I think you have your answer. None of the people who replied have said that it was ok to abuse the person in question. I think we can all agree that such behaviour is despicable and wholly unnecessary. A simple 'Sorry but we are looking for players who are fully prepared', would have sufficed in my opinion.



If that had happened then surely the focus of the conversation would have shifted to the hows and whys of people refusing to accept someone with only two virtues. Namely that, in the most ideal situation, everyone you invite to the raid will:

- Be at the correct level for the raid. That is a minimum expectation, for obvious reasons.

- Come prepared with necessary pots, tokens, scrolls and food. Admittedly, this is not essential but it is nice for everyone to be able to a) contribute by popping hope / scrolls instead of the same old people needing to provide it all, and b) be able to support themselves with power and morale top-ups.

- Have made some attempt at ensuring their character is as equipped as it can be, for the most part. In a way, this covers armour / LIs / virtues, etc.

- Actually WANT to make a positive contribution to the raid; be able to DPS / CC mobs; be able to heal fellows; be able to stand a chance and not get one-shotted in the lightning wing boss because you have 0 tactical mitigation.



If someone had asked to join that Orthanc group and they were level 75 with no Legendary Items equipped, they would likely be told no, for obvious reasons. If they were still wearing the Fem set, they would likely be told no. Virtues are important in Orthanc (as they have been with any on-level raid). Not least because of the morale / power / stats / mitigations they give. It is not cruelty to say that if you don't come equipped you will likely be dead weight in the raid and you'll perhaps not even have much fun. I am not saying that if you have only 2 virtues equipped it means you are a bad player but let's face it, having a full set of 12s is useful.



Overall I guess in future it would be nice to see people give an honest and clear explanation as to why someone is not going to be welcomed into a raid, rather than the way it was apparently done.
But to answer your question about the 'main point'; nobody said you have to be L33t to the extreme to get a raid invite and nobody said it was ok to be abusive about the way someone has chosen to play their character.

+1 Rep for Sen & Sab who said it all for me, really.

It's never ever ok to abuse and insult people. And the thing I like about Gilrain is it honestly rarely seems to happen. Yes, there will always be a few prats but the thing that stands out for me is it's almost always a warm, helpful community.

But I don't believe raids were made for F2P in the sense outlined here. The solo game is easy, raiding is pretty tough and you have a responsibility to the WHOLE raid not just one player, however sweet they may be. We're probably the most casual raiders going as a kinship but we still have a clear description for new raiders of the basic minimums they need to be ready to raid. Then we (hopefully) all have a responsibility to help the would-be raider who is helping themselves.

Although I can see all your very well thought out and worded responses on the subject of being a certain standard to raid and to a point actually agree. What we can not know is the circumstances of people playing the game to some even a few £ is too much, to some it is just a nice way to get away from life's troubles, some may just have limited time and enjoy what spare moments they can in a game, there are limitless reasons players are what they are in game.

I just think it is a shame that they could be excluded because of these circumstances that are possibly beyond their control and would hope that they should receive the same kind of help and level of tolerance I got when first starting out on my journey with the fellowship.

As I said I come from a FPS background where abuse is the norm. I would certainly hate to see that creep into this genre as from the majority of time I have spent in game, abuse is still the exception to the rule but has been slowly spreading its evil tentacles.

What I find disgusting about this thread is the number of people who deliberately avoid or belittle the fact that that player was treated in an attrocious manner and instead are prepared to rabbit on about what should be expected of players who are looking to team up for skirmishes. It's a game people! It's not an elite social club where you expect to be banned for not wearing the right colour tie for cripes sake! OK, so you may not be willing to team up with someone who's character doesn't reach your standards, but no-one has the right to talk to that person the way this player was talked to. And anyone too stupidly self obsessed to see that this thread doesn't need a load of idiots expressing that it was the players fault for not having a good enough character need to take a good hard look at themselves and ask themselves if they really should not have bothered commenting!

NOTHING justifies harassing and belittling another player, there is NO justification for telling someone they are not good enough or treating them as inferior and there is no excuse for hijacking this thread and using it to explain the minimum requirements for being allowed to join a raid. Because quess what people, THERE IS NO MINIMUM REQUIREMENTS! Only what YOU choose to impose on other people and that is not what others might choose to impose because not everyone is cursed with an elitist attitude and an overbearing opninion of what is 'inferior'! If that player had tried to join a raid I was in I would have accepted him and helped him, not treated him as something detestable and not good enough to associate with me. If he was not up to scratch and we got wiped, then the world would not end and I would have advised him how to improve his character, not screamed at him as a useless lump who got us all killed. There are too many players who do that sort of thing now!

Originally Posted by podgie_bear

What I find disgusting about this thread is the number of people who deliberately avoid or belittle the fact that that player was treated in an attrocious manner and instead are prepared to rabbit on about what should be expected of players who are looking to team up for skirmishes. It's a bl**dy game people! It's not an elite social club where you expect to be banned for not wearing the right colour tie for cripes sake! OK, so you may not be willing to team up with someone who's character doesn't reach your standards, but no-one has the right to talk to that person the way this player was talked to. And anyone too stupidly self obsessed to see that this thread doesn't need a load of idiots expressing that it was the players fault for not having a good enough character need to take a good hard look at themselves and ask themselves if they really should not have bothered commenting!

NOTHING justifies harassing and belittling another player, there is NO justification for telling someone they are not good enough or treating them as inferior and there is no excuse for hijacking this thread and using it to explain the minimum requirements for being allowed to join a raid. Because quess what people, THERE IS NO MINIMUM REQUIREMENTS! Only what YOU choose to impose on other people and that is not what others might choose to impose because not everyone is cursed with an elitist attitude and an overbearing opninion of what is 'inferior'! If that player had tried to join a raid I was in I would have accepted him and helped him, not treated him as something detestable and not good enough to associate with me. If he was not up to scratch and we got wiped, then the world would not end and I would have advised him how to improve his character, not screamed at him as a useless lump who got us all killed. There are too many players who do that sort of thing now!

I re-read the entire thread again just to see if I missed something. But I haven't read anyone actually justifying the way the Minstrel was treated.
The thread starter also mentioned 'elitist' behavior. So some raid-leaders/kin-leaders explain why they might have to be 'elitist'.

The raid the Minstrel tried to join was ToO according to some poster. It's not a skirmish and it's way harder, especially in a PUG. There might not be any minimum requirements to enter ToO (other than the level). But you definitely need to set some minimum requirements for your raid members if you want to succeed in there. And being geared appropriately is one very important requirement. Don't blame the players, blame Turbine for making gear important.

And you might have done fine at level 30-40 without any traits healing a skirmish instance. But doing ToO is so much harder than doing a skirmish. Do you think a ToO PUG would have succeed if every member only had 2 traits?

Originally Posted by PropJoe

I re-read the entire thread again just to see if I missed something. But I haven't read anyone actually justifying the way the Minstrel was treated.
The thread starter also mentioned 'elitist' behavior. So some raid-leaders/kin-leaders explain why they might have to be 'elitist'.

The raid the Minstrel tried to join was ToO according to some poster. It's not a skirmish and it's way harder, especially in a PUG. There might not be any minimum requirements to enter ToO (other than the level). But you definitely need to set some minimum requirements for your raid members if you want to succeed in there. And being geared appropriately is one very important requirement. Don't blame the players, blame Turbine for making gear important.

And you might have done fine at level 30-40 without any traits healing a skirmish instance. But doing ToO is so much harder than doing a skirmish. Do you think a ToO PUG would have succeed if every member only had 2 traits?

Who cares whether he would have succeeded? This isn't about what is required, but how he was treated. What might be required is irrelevent and has no place in this thread. It is about how he was TREATED not how he was TRAITED! OK, tell him sorry your character isn't up to spec, not rant at him and certainly not say "well he should have had a minimum of......" HE WAS THE VICTIM OF HARRASMENT!

Or are you saying that because his character wasn't good enough it was justfiable to treat him that way?

Originally Posted by podgie_bear

Who cares whether he would have succeeded? This isn't about what is required, but how he was treated. What might be required is irrelevent and has no place in this thread. It is about how he was TREATED not how he was TRAITED! OK, tell him sorry your character isn't up to spec, not rant at him and certainly not say "well he should have had a minimum of......" HE WAS THE VICTIM OF HARRASMENT!

Or are you saying that because his character wasn't good enough it was justfiable to treat him that way?

It's not irrelevant as the thread starter brought up that he's noticed a general trend towards more 'elitism'. So people responded to that too.

And again. I'm not and neither is anyone else in this thread trying to justify the way he was treated.

I'm sure elitism can be defined in many ways from a simple you just don't cut it to a I have better stuff therefore I am better than you, degrees in unpleasantness I'm sure will vary. You would hope, in essentially what is just a game, mere entertainment that there would be a bit more give and take.

Sigh I actually wish I hadn't mentioned the word elitism as it seems to have overshadowed the real whole point of my thread with people trying to defend why he would have been excluded and not addressing the real issue. I will quote my last post and hopefully that will clear it up a bit

"Although I can see all your very well thought out and worded responses on the subject of being a certain standard to raid and to a point actually agree. What we can not know is the circumstances of people playing the game to some even a few £ is too much, to some it is just a nice way to get away from life's troubles, some may just have limited time and enjoy what spare moments they can in a game, there are limitless reasons players are what they are in game.

I just think it is a shame that they could be excluded because of these circumstances that are possibly beyond their control and would hope that they should receive the same kind of help and level of tolerance I got when first starting out on my journey with the fellowship.

As I said I come from a FPS background where abuse is the norm. I would certainly hate to see that creep into this genre as from the majority of time I have spent in game, abuse is still the exception to the rule but has been slowly spreading its evil tentacles."

whilst the player may not have been suitable for the raid, he does not deserve abuse. He plays for fun, and its not fun when some elitist snob is dumping on you because you are a bit underpowered.

I hope he was reported, behaviour like that is disgusting.

I believe the positions on this issue have been made clear. Letting this discussion go any further will probably only lead to tears and hair pulling. Therefore: The End.