Thread: What is new in the store, armors?????

Sorry this is too much...
I am playing this game since 2007 and you just manage to kill my joy.
All actions taken by you lately are leading only towards one path and I am not willing to follow it.
As a starters, I will not pay any more money to TB. and I will consider to stop paying as well.
As others mentioned before, if you don't like it don't play it and it takes that direction rapidly - not because of my fault.

cheers.

Originally Posted by Fipiara

Whatever the viewpoint that's just how it is whether good/bad/indifferent, it's part of the job responsibilities of a Manager in eCommerce:

But you see, people would have at least given them the credit of being HONEST if they had come out and said "we know we drew a line but by crossing it this will help us generate more revenue for lotro". But instead they hide behind this INSULTING excuse that Sapience gave.

Where was this uproar and demand for L20ish armor?
Why wait 4+ years before 'addressing' this?
Look at the Housing forum section. There has been an uproar and demand there. Why not fix THAT instead?

The lame reason that Sapience gave was obviously just some filmsy excuse. They think their customers are stupid (Steelbound Loot box anyone?) and don't even give them the courtesy of being honest.

Originally Posted by LadyDena

But you see, people would have at least given them the credit of being HONEST if they had come out and said "we know we drew a line but by crossing it this will help us generate more revenue for lotro". But instead they hide behind this INSULTING excuse that Sapience gave.

Where was this uproar and demand for L20ish armor?
Why wait 4+ years before 'addressing' this?
Look at the Housing forum section. There has been an uproar and demand there. Why not fix THAT instead?

The lame reason that Sapience gave was obviously just some filmsy excuse. They think their customers are stupid (Steelbound Loot box anyone?) and don't even give them the courtesy of being honest.

Exactly!
The entire reasoning behind adding gear to the store is flawed. If people are claiming there isn't enough gear IN GAME.....wouldn't it be wise to.... add it in game. Fixing the drops and so on.

Originally Posted by GalateaOrea

All I can say is that I would be more disinterested in armor in the store if I thought the game play was going in a good direction. But my personal opinion is that both Enedwaith and RoI are terminally boring. The crafting is sub-par, even for LOTRO, the adventuring is non-existent, and the leveling up is rote. End game is a boring gear grind. LIs are a boring grind. And none of it means anything because it will all need to be replaced with the next update and more grinds for more stuff without any sense of character advancement at all.

As I've said elsewhere, WB is using LOTRO to test their F2P theories and approach. They are going to push this as hard and fast as they can and see where it breaks. One needs to separate "Turbine", if it exists anymore, from WB. WB's agenda has taken over LOTRO, and that agenda is to tap into the billion-dollar gaming market for all it is worth. Don't kid yourself that this will stop here, it won't, especially if it is well received; that is, it sells in the store.

It doesn't matter what happens here on the forums; it only matters what happens in the store. Let's face it, the pre-WB LOTRO is gone. The game we are playing now is entirely different. This game is designed with one purpose in mind: sell in the Store. We knew that when they took a known game-mechanic, relic removal, and put a price on it. That scroll tells you everything you need to know about where this game is going.

You can bet your sweet bippy that we'll be seeing gear for higher levels, level up packages, and every other cruise control goody WB can think up or sees offered in other Pay-2-Win games. There's nothing to be done about it because this is the future of gaming. WB HAS to make money this way. Gaming is THE most profitable form of entertainment in the world. Nothing is keeping pace with the rate of revenue growth for the gaming industry. Of course they are going to do everything they can to maximize profits.

If this bothers you, now is the time to bail. It is not going to get any better. But I'd be less annoyed about this kind of thing if the game were going in an exciting direction in terms of game play, crafting, or housing. I have no objection to Free to Play, or even Pay to Win. But I'm not going to Pay to Win a boring game.

bravo and well said, it's corporate business at its most cutthroat. Only thing that will have any effect are quarterly revenue reports and projections. We can vote with our wallet.. but just be aware, if the game is a financial loss they will just close it and move to the next source of income.

I have played in several MMOs every time you kill an elite mob you get some nice drops, this is the only game where killing elites gives you squat!!! Why not to make these elites that are at ever level drop some nice top gear that will help to fill the "hole" in armors.

Originally Posted by Gwanwyn

Exactly!
The entire reasoning behind adding gear to the store is flawed. If people are claiming there isn't enough gear IN GAME.....wouldn't it be wise to.... add it in game. Fixing the drops and so on.

I think that may be exactly their own twisted reasoning-- better gear for the 20s has been added in-game. The store is accessible in-game, ergo the armor is added in-game.

There was a post from yesterday that has gone missing (not one of mine). It was asking about "powerleveling", in the manner that is done on Bullroarer, roll a character and put it at such and such a level. It was in this thread, so it was a store-related question. If the poster deleted it, and I can't think of why, then OK, but I feel the need to point this out, because the thought of such powerleveling in the store context is troubling. I went to bed thinking of answers and implications to respond with, and woke up this morning to find the post gone.

We can buy quest packs-- that's OK and a good thing, I see that as a major reason for the store. But is it planned that we can buy quest packs to start in? I.e. buy Moria and a character to start at level 50? Or even forget the QP, just buy a character at a chosen level and a spot to start it at. If the post that was removed has been done so by a moderator, then that is what's coming. As down as I am on adding the armor to the store, buying a starting level is just way too far.

Maybe the poster deleted his own post. That'd be good. That's what I'm hoping. Because otherwise... I don't even have the words to say what I think.

(This is damage Turbine has done by going back on their given word. A post goes missing, implications spiral.)

ETA: I found another post that had a copy of the question in it, but the original post is gone. "Originally Posted by (removed the name just in case it was removed by a mod-- I don't want to cause trouble for the poster)

Not exactly. Maybe I used the wrong term. I meant buying levels from the LOTRO Store. Similar to Bullroarer where you can choose to go to level 20, 30, 40, etc, right after you create your character."

Originally Posted by Abiyah

There was a post from yesterday that has gone missing (not one of mine). It was asking about "powerleveling", in the manner that is done on Bullroarer, roll a character and put it at such and such a level. It was in this thread, so it was a store-related question. If the poster deleted it, and I can't think of why, then OK, but I feel the need to point this out, because the thought of such powerleveling in the store context is troubling. I went to bed thinking of answers and implications to respond with, and woke up this morning to find the post gone.

We can buy quest packs-- that's OK and a good thing, I see that as a major reason for the store. But is it planned that we can buy quest packs to start in? I.e. buy Moria and a character to start at level 50? Or even forget the QP, just buy a character at a chosen level and a spot to start it at. If the post that was removed has been done so by a moderator, then that is what's coming. As down as I am on adding the armor to the store, buying a starting level is just way too far.

Maybe the poster deleted his own post. That'd be good. That's what I'm hoping. Because otherwise... I don't even have the words to say what I think.

(This is damage Turbine has done by going back on their given word. A post goes missing, implications spiral.)

Well we didn't get the full details on the patch notes, could be that along with these armors, you can buy a lvl 20 toon along with it.

Would that surprise anyone?

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this is from the Warner Brothers Portfolio info site. Lets face it, Turbine doesnt own lotr, all mandates come from this.. bottom line is MONEY and will be from now on. All you can do is get used to it, see if the game is still enjoyable to you with it, if not.. try to find another game but be prepared : THIS IS THE NEW PROVEN MODEL FOR GAMING.

Originally Posted by OnyxSoulbane

Well we didn't get the full details on the patch notes, could be that along with these armors, you can buy a lvl 20 toon along with it.

Would that surprise anyone?

I dont think this will be yet, but my suspicion is that this will be the next step - and that it is in testing right now - to buy characters at lvl 20, with exactly this gear^^. And the next step from there would be to sell lvl 50 and lvl 75 chars with gear etc... I fully expect that from Turbine.

Originally Posted by Elled

I dont think this will be yet, but my suspicion is that this will be the next step - and that it is in testing right now - to buy characters at lvl 20, with exactly this gear^^. And the next step from there would be to sell lvl 50 and lvl 75 chars with gear etc... I fully expect that from Turbine.

This won't happen because of the way MMOs are designed. The leveling system is used as an extended tutorial so that players so learn how to use hundreds of skills over time. If you are allowed to just skip those levels, things get complicated a lot faster.

I know this was early on in the thread, but this AH argument doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

So I'm level 14 and I don't see any armor on the AH... The first inclination is to just put it on the store for 3+ dollars?

My experience with lower levels is that people often just give that armor away. You have to make so much of it early on and it's so un-valuable that it often just pops up in trade chat for absolutely nothing. I'm willing to bet that if someone asked in a busy chat channel that an Armourer would be willing to make it for them too.

But even assuming I'm wrong on all of that, I don't get how this is the response. So the person has another way to get this gear... I get that. But this doesn't fix the supposed "problem": that there's not enough low level armor on the Auction House. This isn't going to result in any changes to that at all. This completely bypasses the AH entirely.

Still, as I said on page 3, Turbine is quoted as saying they would not do this. I bought many things under that pretense. Now I'm basically being told "oh well".

My trust has gone down significantly over this. At this point I no longer trust that this will go further -- before it was no stat armour, now it is no high-level stat armour. When will that change too? After I sink another $200 in this game?

I was just checking out this wiki because I wanted to see what Turbine sells in other stores. Turns out you can buy quite a lot of gear that would be useful at the max level.

Originally Posted by Ebyl

My thing about stat tomes is, to me, they're a grey area. They don't really have any serious impact on any of the game. I guess if you buy them all early or something, it would make something of a difference. But in the end, who cares, because the early stages of the game have intentionally been made mind-numbingly easy and boring. Once you're further into the game, they don't mean squat. They're nice little bonuses, but they're inconsequential when compared to many other things at that point.

And while I think Turbine crossed a line with them, it was a line into a grey area that doesn't impact much of the game and surely makes them a lot of money. Great, good for them, I have no issues with that. And of course, technically you can get most of them in game, but let's face it, you're not going to.

I disagree with you. I think stat tomes deserve just as much ire as this armour does. They're effectively adding another armour/jewelry slot to characters. Also they're not obtainable ingame if one is honest about it. I'm not going to pay money to buy tomes on all my alts and if this trend of adding new tiers continues, my alts will start lagging behind. Right now 70 will for a caster is 700 offense. Most jewelry doesn't offer than much offense. Or 70 vitality is 350 morale for a tank. That's not inconsequential in my opinion.

Any advancement that isn't available by playing ingame (armour, tomes, relic removal scrolls, etc) is absolutely wrong in my opinion.

Originally Posted by Sapience

Please use this thread for your feedback on the new store armor. All other threads will be consolidated into this one. For those asking why these threads have been moved here, it is very simple. You are discussing store items and providing store feedback. This is the store feedback forum.

Also, let's try to keep this civil. Name calling, insults, and similar comments whether directed at other players or Turbine staff are direct violations of the community guidelines. You're free to discuss the issue, but you must abide by the guidelines the same as with any other thread on these forums.

Feedback, comments, and yes even criticisms are welcome, but please do so in an appropriate manner.

Sapience please tell me end game raiding gear will always be tops and no store armor would be better. Personally i think this is one of the more horrid ideas you guys have ever had but i wont complain much until ppl who dont do the work are still able to get the gear.

Originally Posted by monteeburns

5$ to anyone who can find the missing 'shortage of low level armour' thread that triggered this generous response from Turbine

Sorry that one was merged with a RP thread about in-game three-course meals on the French forum.

Originally Posted by Erasluindor

Sapience please tell me end game raiding gear will always be tops and no store armor would be better. .

Doesn't matter if he came out and said raid gear will always be tops. Turbine said they wouldn't sell armour with stats. What happened? They are selling armour with stats. That is the point really, by breaking their word many times ( this just being the last time ), what they say simply cannot be trusted at all. Coming up with an 'insult to our intelligence' excuse as their reason for putting armour in the store is just the icing on the cake.

Originally Posted by Lothirieth

I disagree with you. I think stat tomes deserve just as much ire as this armour does. They're effectively adding another armour/jewelry slot to characters. Also they're not obtainable ingame if one is honest about it. I'm not going to pay money to buy tomes on all my alts and if this trend of adding new tiers continues, my alts will start lagging behind. Right now 70 will for a caster is 700 offense. Most jewelry doesn't offer than much offense. Or 70 vitality is 350 morale for a tank. That's not inconsequential in my opinion.

Any advancement that isn't available by playing ingame (armour, tomes, relic removal scrolls, etc) is absolutely wrong in my opinion.

Indeed, if Turbine make put a special pipe slot and put store only +70 to all stats pipes that You could equip in that slot, the sky would deficiently fall. All it took was name it properly as stat tome and hid it in passives page and voila peeps think it's a gray zone and not a gear.

Originally Posted by Thorsvin

This won't happen because of the way MMOs are designed. The leveling system is used as an extended tutorial so that players so learn how to use hundreds of skills over time. If you are allowed to just skip those levels, things get complicated a lot faster.

Sorry, Thor, but you really think at this point they're concerned if a player knows how to play the game or not? It really seems they're main concern is whether or not said player knows how to use a credit card.

ETA: if you can buy a level that costs more than a monthly sub, Turbine's done their job-- doesn't matter if you don't know what to do with it once you get it.

Originally Posted by Dorothir

LotRO is a pay 2 win already. You get better characters by using the Store than someone who doesn't. That's something that can't be disputed.

So the question should become: 'Is LotRO finally falling to the power of the One Store?'

The answer to that is yes.

Not only is the Store offering clear advantage over convenience, it is now offering gear. I should note that the gear is low level and fairly poor, but this is obviously just the beginning. This is their attempt at slowly raising the temperature, so as not to alert the frogs (their customers) that they're beginning to boil.

Soon it will be LI's (or Store versions of them), Store only end game armour sets and anything else you'd care to think of as being the rewards for end game. When that day comes, I don't even think the usual suspect in this thread will be able to defend Turbine (well he'll try, though it will sound immensely pitiful, more so than it sounds now from him). I'm surprised they haven't started offering a 'Raid Lock Removal' scroll (yet).

But it's nice to see we can add this to the list of Turbine's lies:

- Store will offer convenience not advantage.
- VIPs will have full access to all content and features, excluding expansions.
- No details were exposed during the recent breach.
- RoI has 3 regions.
- There will be no armour or weapons sold in the Store.

Good job, Turbine.

Quoting my own post so that a) it isn't lost to any readers, what with this recent mess up with the thread merges and b) so that I can add:

Good job on coming up with the worst excuse for this Store armour, Sap or whoever told you to say it.

'It's in there because there isn't enough on AH for low levels'. Like that's an excuse?

If low levels want better armour, they quest for it.

If, as you've said, this armour is worse than that (despite the comparisons showing this new gear will be better), why add it?

If it's because there's no crafted armour available, why not add a vendor that can sell it?

There were plenty of ways around this that didn't involve the Store but, of course, Turbine would prefer to make more money whilst breaking their word.

Originally Posted by KitCaboodle

I've been meaning to learn to paint, maybe I could go and do that instead?

I picked up bass guitar.


I stopped blogging about LOTRO, or writing articles for Stratics, b/c I just didn't have a passion for the game anymore. The same time I spent on the forums/blogs, I put into reading financial & investing blogs & forums (when I wasn't planning our wedding!)

I do play other games, and while I think they are better games (and are more enjoyable to play), I don't have the same passion as I did for Middle Earth.

I don't really so much care for LOTRO as I do playing in ME. 2017 will be an interesting year.

Originally Posted by kerryak

2017 will be an interesting year.

Assuming WB's deep pockets doesn't buy Turbine an extension of the LotR license, I would like to see another company take a crack at making an MMO based on the IP. I would like to see if they could recapture the magic and wonder we had in SoA-era LOTRO.

About the promise Turbine made about the stated Armour in the Store. Turbine doesn't call the shots any more "WB Games" dose. It sad but true, WB never made a promise that they would Stay True to the old promises made by Turbine. Most other FTP games sell stuff like armor and other things like it in there cash stores.

So to stay competitive they will do the same. It is sad when a company buys another company it usually is changed to suit the new buyers vision of said business. Despite what the old owners vision. Let say I owned a hamburger joint and I promised to my customers I will never sell frozen beef always fresh beef. But for some reason I had to sell my business to another and the new owner decides it more cost affective to sell frozen beef. Yes the old customers will be mad and wont eat there any more, but new ones that never heard that promise will.

Not defending WB just stating way things are "Sad But True"

Originally Posted by EvilEirnie

It sad but true, WB never made a promise that they would Stay True to the old promises made by Turbine.

I just want to clarify one thing.

From wikipedia:
Warner Bros. Home Entertainment Group announced on April 20, 2010 the acquisition of Turbine, Inc. the developer of the famous company MMOs Dungeons & Dragons Online and Lord of the Rings Online.

The promises people have been quoting from this article were made after WB acquired Turbine. As a side note, WB was an investor in LotRO/MEO from the start (but not always having a controlling interest.)

I think it's worth pointing out additional feedback regarding store gear. Massivley's article has been linked here several times, but I would like to add some others. Even players commenting on the fan sites which are normally very enthusiastic/forgiving about LoTRO are voicing a negative response:

Casual Stroll, comments on the news article and poll:
http://www.casualstrolltomordor.com/...-store-armour/
http://www.casualstrolltomordor.com/...-in-the-store/

Even the author and readers of Cosmetic Lotro are unhappy:
http://cosmeticlotro.wordpress.com/2...e-lotro-store/

Guess I just wanted to point out the community reaction to this goes much deeper than the 'normal forum whining'.

Originally Posted by Thorsvin

I just want to clarify one thing.

From wikipedia:
Warner Bros. Home Entertainment Group announced on April 20, 2010 the acquisition of Turbine, Inc. the developer of the famous company MMOs Dungeons & Dragons Online and Lord of the Rings Online.

The promises people have been quoting from this article were made after WB acquired Turbine. As a side note, WB was an investor in LotRO/MEO from the start (but not always having a controlling interest.)

Thanks for clarifying wasn't sure when WB Acquired Turbine. + Rep But as ya know things change for better or worst. I don't like that turbine promised they wouldn't do it. But here we are.........

Originally Posted by Thorsvin

This won't happen because of the way MMOs are designed. The leveling system is used as an extended tutorial so that players so learn how to use hundreds of skills over time. If you are allowed to just skip those levels, things get complicated a lot faster.

In WoW you could make a Deathknigt which start at level 50.
Only thing you had to do was level one toon to level 50 before that option become available.

So the same thing Turbine can do and do you think Turbine cares if it become complicated?
A little warning will suffice, something like "Starting with a level 50 toon can be quite difficult" and be done with it.

You also would be amazed to see how many WILL buy those characters.
Quite some players are as much at fault as Turbine here.

For me it is the same why many MMO's get ridden with goldsellers spam. If no player, or just a handfull, would buy gold those goldsellers would cease to exist.

Apparantly there is a market because there are quite some players who are just lazy under the disguise of being so called "casuals" with a busy life so it is okay.
While I still played i was casual too but still got my stuff by playing the game instead of buying my way to the top. Yeah, it took a while but I got there nonetheless.

Is THAT not what an MMO is about to start with? But these days it is all about racing to the top by any means possible and then complaining "I have nothing to do, I am bored, blah blah"

If this is the trent of MMO's, and I think it is on it's way, I am done completely with MMO's.

Originally Posted by Ebyl

This is most definitely a step in the wrong direction. And at this point, after all mistakes Turbine has recently made, it's an incredibly poor sign for the game.

If they're serious about keeping this, I'll probably be spending my time and money on a different game. YOU drew the line in the sand, Turbine, with your previous comments on what would and would not happen, and now you're crossing it. Don't be surprised when a good chunk of your players disappear for good.

The hybrid system is good in theory, but it requires careful managing and a company willing to stick to what they promised. It's becoming pretty clear lately that Turbine is no longer that company. I think it will very soon be time to permanently find another one for many players.

Players will always temporarily leave to try other games, but LoTRO has always brought a good percentage back just because of its nature and that of its players. But now the game's nature, and that of the company running it, is changing. Going back on things you promised is not the way to instill confidence in the players that are still here or any players that might be returning.

I hope you prove me wrong, Turbine, but I don't see it happening. I think you're way too far down that slippery slope now.

Sad but true category my friend, I left to try SWTOR for a while, I said I would give it an honest trial a couple of months anyway, but sadly it hasnt "grabbed" my interest the way Lotro did. I was considering coming back to Lotro soon, now I will be returning once more, to delete my characters and say good bye to my kinmates, this latest store offering from Turbine is OVER THE LINE.

I was listening to the CSTM podcast and this is what Merric had to say ( amongst other things ).

"As much as they ( Turbine )can say "Oh this is what we're going to put in, and that's it, I just don't believe them anymore. I just don't believe that this isn't the introdution to what we're going to see in the future".

-----

When your largest fan sites and podcasts are telling you they don't believe what you say anymore, it's time to take a serious look at what lines you've crossed. This isn't a minority on the forum complaining for the sake of it, pretty much everyone who plays Lotro can see where this is leading.

How many sales do they expect to get from low level armour, I'm guessing not too much. Turbine must have known there was going to be some backlash against this, so why put it in? The only viable reason is that it is the first step towards putting higher level armour / jewellry in the store. Otherwise from a strategic point of view, it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
They'll wait till the anger burns itself out, then sneak the next level of armour in, then repeat. And they'll get away with it too, because they know that most who complain will sink back into apathy in a couple of weeks. They only get away with things like this because they know we'll allow them to.

Fernando Paiz goes so far as to say that "companies who use microtransactions can push players well past their comfortable limits, really anger them and they still won't leave."
The only reason people won't go elsewhere is because only Turbine have the LOTR IP. He obviously thinks that is a good reason to take advantage of the customers, and apparently sees us as no more than cows to be milked, and if we are upset, why should he care as long as we stump up his wages.
I really hope this one turns around and bites him back.

Originally Posted by DraganOfRyzom

Sad but true category my friend, I left to try SWTOR for a while, I said I would give it an honest trial a couple of months anyway, but sadly it hasnt "grabbed" my interest the way Lotro did. I was considering coming back to Lotro soon, now I will be returning once more, to delete my characters and say good bye to my kinmates, this latest store offering from Turbine is OVER THE LINE.

Similarly to you, I've yet to find anything that grabbed my attention as hard in the MMO space. Believe me, I've tried. That's what is so frustrating to me. I know there are people who wish for the SoA days, but personally I was still quite happy even when Mirkwood was coming out. I genuinely enjoy this game on many different fronts even now.

If this store stuff becomes the norm, at some point I guess I'm just going to have to move on. I still want to play this game, I still think it has things to offer and I still think that there are ways to fix this stuff. I just don't know what will happen anymore.

I'm starting to wonder if some sort of organized one day boycott of the game (like getting everyone to not play on a busy Saturday or something), might get that point across better. I feel like these viewpoints are often treated like the "vocal minority" and I'm wondering if that's even true anymore.

I am a premium user and will likely continue using what I bought, but unless this changes I have absolutely no interest in pumping any money into this game again.

Originally Posted by Erasluindor

Sapience please tell me end game raiding gear will always be tops and no store armor would be better. Personally i think this is one of the more horrid ideas you guys have ever had but i wont complain much until ppl who dont do the work are still able to get the gear.

Duh, what is the difference between Raid Gear and this gear in this regard?
Those players who buy this gear from the store are apparantly not doing any work either to get ingame gear, just saying. So those players will later ask for higher level gear and Turbine will ofcourse grant their wishes because there is money to be made here.

But I get it, you are not affected yet so you not complain too much till it swims ashore and bite you in the behind.
I honestly cannot wait for this to happen, it will end up there anyway so i would say, smack it all in the store tommorrow, Raid Gear, First ages, the whole kids and cadoodle and get it over with!

Originally Posted by Lothirieth

I disagree with you. I think stat tomes deserve just as much ire as this armour does. They're effectively adding another armour/jewelry slot to characters. Also they're not obtainable ingame if one is honest about it. I'm not going to pay money to buy tomes on all my alts and if this trend of adding new tiers continues, my alts will start lagging behind. Right now 70 will for a caster is 700 offense. Most jewelry doesn't offer than much offense. Or 70 vitality is 350 morale for a tank. That's not inconsequential in my opinion.

Any advancement that isn't available by playing ingame (armour, tomes, relic removal scrolls, etc) is absolutely wrong in my opinion.

It is almost completely inconsequential in that if you take a group of characters without any stat tomes into OD, Orthanc, BG, or whatever right now, it won't make a single bit of difference compared to a group of characters with all the stat tomes. 350 morale? That's a far less than a single hit in BG from many mobs, even for a well geared tank at 75, and that's a lvl 65 raid. If we're talking about Orthanc, then 350 morale is laughable. The same is true of all the other bonuses.

What matters is what weapons you're using, what legacies you have, how far they're tiered up, what armor you have, that you at least have decent jewelery, and most importantly...that you don't suck as a player, know your class, and know how to follow directions.

But this isn't a thread about that, so I'll make this my last post on the topic. Still, no matter how you slice it, the bonuses stat tomes give are inconsequential compared to a host of other things. If a character comes to a raid without stat tomes, I don't give #### (not that I'd bother to ask anyway). If a character comes to a real raid with #### armor, #### weapons, the "wrong" legacies for his/her job, jewelery from lvl 30, etc, then I would suggest they leave.

Stat tomes are inconsequential, but high level armor would not be.

Originally Posted by monteeburns

[...]Fernando Paiz goes so far as to say that "companies who use microtransactions can push players well past their comfortable limits, really anger them and they still won't leave." [...]

Thank you for typing it out for all to see. The player backlash has been forseen, fortold, predicted. It's all part of the plan - expected and anticipated. This is no surprise to the folks that listened to the Fernando Piaz address at PAX East (I believe that was the venue). I've been telling people for months to listen to it, I even put it in my signature (prior to the signature character limit reduction) to make it easier for people to find. If you listened to that address you'd have seen all this coming. Mr. Piaz prophesied it himself.

For old timers like me, the game we signed up for is gone. It is now a test bed for the new hybrid business model. They're going to push the limits of the players - just to find out how far they can go before we push back. And yes, the quote provided by MonteeBurnes is quite accurate. They already know we're not going to give up on the game, we're just going to come here and complain and, for most players, that's where their discontent ends. Once they complain they feel better, return to the game and continue spending. Turbine doesn't just believe this, they're banking on it.

Originally Posted by Lothirieth

I disagree with you. I think stat tomes deserve just as much ire as this armour does. They're effectively adding another armour/jewelry slot to characters. Also they're not obtainable ingame if one is honest about it. I'm not going to pay money to buy tomes on all my alts and if this trend of adding new tiers continues, my alts will start lagging behind. Right now 70 will for a caster is 700 offense. Most jewelry doesn't offer than much offense. Or 70 vitality is 350 morale for a tank. That's not inconsequential in my opinion.

Any advancement that isn't available by playing ingame (armour, tomes, relic removal scrolls, etc) is absolutely wrong in my opinion.

I'm beginning to feel that a lot deserved ire, before this stat armour loomed over the store. I just let it pass, sometimes bought it anyway. The truth is, they've been undercutting professions for a long time. I first noticed it with Scholars. Then came metalsmiths. (I'd love to add 'and then they came for me,' but I had both those other professions, too, so the reference doesn't *quite* work.)


I don't quite feel that somehow, as long as raid gear is safe, we're ok. For one thing, I'm not convinced that raiding is the toughest thing in a game, nor that it should be specially deserving. The experience of the entire game matters more. If this is just a 'shove you to end game so you can spend 3+ hours a night raiding,' that would be enough reason for me to stop playing. (I don't think a lifetime subscriber quitting would mean much. "You weren't getting money from my sub anyway, but good bye!" Not the sort of slap in the face I'd be hoping to deliver!)

This mmo has been special. It has a story behind it that means something, not just a mishmash of fantasy/futuristic pieces. The quality of every aspect in the experience matters - and that includes crafting and selling at the AH. It should mean that the developers are looking for ways to improve the game, and that means evaluating outdated systems like crafting, like deeds, like grinding. Other games are moving past those things, finding new & more creative ways toward game immersion.

To dear Fernando who says he can push us past our level of comfort, I'd just love to say: 'Ya, sir, you sure can.' (I'd stick a Southern Girl accent in there for emphasis, but I'm a Yankee so I probably couldn't pull it off.) "You sure pushed me past my level of comfort, anyway. Maybe I could afford to spend frivolous cash, but I still didn't feel good about it. But I might just look over at a person hopefully learning the game's crafting system, learning to use the AH, and then find that the STORE is his main competitor. And I, having something of a heart, might just say, 'Enough is enough.'"


eta a small question: Has anyone else been feeling that Turbine is teetering dangerously close to behaving like a Gold Seller, & that the store itself has the same effect on the in game economy as wrongly purchased gold? Isn't that the main argument they use to convince players not to buy gold? It's one thing to offer vanity items you can't get in game - it's another to get in there & start competing with us, and that is *exactly* what they're doing - what they've been doing for some time. Armour is visible, more so than potions or tools or class items that can also be crafted in game. But I'd be very surprised if we don't see more 'leveling gear.'

Someone back a bit mentioned WoW's Death Knight class. They made it too easy to get, so everyone had one. I recently read an article about the class least played - and guess which that was? They considered making it something you had to earn - even sacrifice another of your own characters for, but in the end, they just about placed it in your hand. It's not a long-term way to proceed. A shame the brilliant powers-that-be can't seem to grasp a rather simple reality.

Who do they have to speak to to renew their license?

And whomever that is, how responsive would that individual/company be to a letter campaign/petition to deny said license renewal?

If they want to destroy our game, lets destroy their game...and their wallet.

Originally Posted by BrittainTheCommie

Who do they have to speak to to renew their license?

And whomever that is, how responsive would that individual/company be to a letter campaign/petition to deny said license renewal?

If they want to destroy our game, lets destroy their game...and their wallet.

This might be a place to start: http://www.middleearth.com/

Originally Posted by Ebyl

It is almost completely inconsequential in that if you take a group of characters without any stat tomes into OD, Orthanc, BG, or whatever right now, it won't make a single bit of difference compared to a group of characters with all the stat tomes. 350 morale? That's a far less than a single hit in BG from many mobs, even for a well geared tank at 75, and that's a lvl 65 raid. If we're talking about Orthanc, then 350 morale is laughable. The same is true of all the other bonuses.

Endgame jewelry and armour pieces give "laughable" stats like 70 vit or 350 morale. All these little "inconsequential" bits add up to a more and more powerful character. So I think you're wrong. Also, it's clear that t7 won't be the last tier we see of these tomes. So the advantages, store exclusive advantages, will continue to grow and disparity between those who buy these and those who don't will widen. These tomes are effectively gear, extra gear. That's not inconsequential. If I can't reasonably get a permanent advancement to my character in game, it doesn't belong in the store. Period.

Ah yes, the classic, "if you take all the bits and add them up, it makes a difference" argument. That's completely false logic with this topic for a lot of reasons. I'll leave it to you to figure out why, or we can move this part of the discussion to a relevant thread, if you want.

Regarding the question about the lotro store being a little like a gold seller, it's true in some ways, but not in the ways that really matter. As a game, lotro really doesn't have much of a crafting system or economy. They don't really provide the tools or framework for it. So while in some ways the lotro store can be seen as starting to compete with player crafters, it's really not at the moment since player crafters are pretty much irrelevant until later in the game. It may be nice to have crit crafted lower level gear, but it's not necessary and the market for it is uncertain and unstable at the best of times (aka, you're better off spending your time doing other stuff unless you just want to be a philanthropist).

Now, if they start selling higher level gear, then yes, that will become more of an issue. But assuming it's all bound to account, you won't be able to turn around and sell it for lots of gold in game, etc. And that is the actual damage large numbers of gold sellers do to the economy - inflation. And with stuff being bound, that won't happen.

Would complaining in a well organized and well spoken manner to those that run JRRT's estate do any good? Just wondering. Not saying I feel it would do us any good.

Originally Posted by Ardineck

Would complaining in a well organized and well spoken manner to those that run JRRT's estate do any good? Just wondering. Not saying I feel it would do us any good.

I don't know, but my question is, what do those people care if a Lord of the Rings game is selling armor with stats in their store?