There is a striking lack of players providing feedback in this thread about the scarcity of low-level gear on their servers' auction houses and their desire for an additional purchasing option.
I have nothing good to say about this potential development, and I hope Turbine will reconsider its implementation.
I think those players have been posting in a secret feedback forum along with all the people that asked for a tool to place them in ill-formed groups to run random skirmishes and instances not of their choosing.
"Sam thinks it a queer place, but I think he likes it, too." - Frodo
"If you're in advertising or marketing, kill yourself." - Bill Hicks
Why would any even slightly intelligent person buy that.....
quest reward armor is good enough till you can skirm at 20.
GB armor is decent enough at 25.
craft some lvl 35 stuff.
Fem @ 42 (or forochel if you care to grind the rep for ally to wear/kindred to craft)
craft 51 crit
Moria @ 58-60
Mirk @ 65 (or get the galtrev stuff from quests)
75 raid gear that you can skirm for almost as easily (draigoch, not ox-clan trade)
I have personally harvested enough stuff for my newb toons to get crafted (generally crit) armor when ever i want.
This is crossing the line.
Congratulations everyone, we are officially entering PAY-TO-WIN.
We have entered the Fifth Age: Age of the Flaming Trolls
There is a striking lack of players providing feedback in this thread about the scarcity of low-level gear on their servers' auction houses and their desire for an additional purchasing option.
I have nothing good to say about this potential development, and I hope Turbine will reconsider its implementation.
Honestly, I dont think most of us pay attention to it, I know I am willing to craft low level gear when requested. Recently I've been on a low level character not-publically affiliated with my persona. It's been nice to lend a helping hand here and there. The barter community for our low-level players seems thriving. No its not on the AH, it's in /trade in Bree.
Re: Armour in the Store Now? Is armour new item to the store?
Originally Posted by Nakiami
"General Discussion" is much busier, yes, but that means any topic in here gets dropped to page 2 - never to be seen again - all the quicker.
Busier, but more people viewing it means a wider variety of opinions will be given. And as I said, discussions about the direction of the game shouldn't be shoved off to a rarely visited forum where the only active threads are those that were moved from more popular forums.
In any case, the thread was already moved and merged, so there's really no point in discussing why it should remain on the original forum.
If you wanted to make a similar gear set available to all players, you know how to hook up things to a barter vendor.
THIS ^
You didnt need charge people TP for better statted gears, you could have made a longer quest that awards it.
So then thats NOT totally in the interest of people complaining that low level gears are not available in the AH when they have to pay real money for TP or real money for subscriptions that pay the TP that buy the better statted gears, see the pattern?
I watched one of my favourite games that I played for 6 years do what your doing and its now such a mess that I dont know a single person who used to play, my view is that somehow things here are getting so 'excitable' because of the hobbit movie coming out that will give an influx of players once again.
My opinion:
This kind of follows suit with bad decisions made since Lothlorien/Mirkwood. I dont really care if Frodo makes it to Mt Doom anymore-as a matter of fact its probably better he doesn't.
If I am to assume that anyone can wear these armors, then these would be an improvement over lvl 25 GB armor at the highest tier. Are there any level restrictions on these or can we buy armor (well just 3 pieces) that's good enough until lvl 30?
Joe "Jwbarry" Barry: "... because there was a thread in the book to hang ourselves from..." "We will not sell end-game gear. "
Orion: "Something needs to go here"
Speaking as a long-time EVE player, I'm all too familiar with staring into the giant gaping pit of the hell that is people being able to pay real money for in-game items. CCP (EVE's developer) learned their lesson and backed away from it after enough vehement community feedback. Turbine/WB have an important choice to make here, it's becoming clear (not just from these forums but from internet reaction in general) that there is going to be very little support, and most likely a lot of vitriol over this decision.
You must choose... but please choose wisely. LotR:O is one of the few MMOs left that I always come back to check in on (and spend money on).
Players can most certainly protest this very easily by creating loads of gear to compete with these store abominations. But I fear most will not take the time to do this. In my experience, the lotro community is rather lethargic when it comes to protests of any kind. A few of us will make a bit of noise on the forum but in the game world no one will even blink.
If there is nothing wrong with Turbine selling stat-bearing equipment in the store. . . If this is in keeping with the principles they themselves laid out regarding what would and would not be sold in the store. . . If this does not violate the "first principle" that character-enhancing gear should be obtained through gameplay. . .
Why haven't these items been in the store from the beginning?
*drip*. . . *drip*. . . *drip*. . . They know we won't notice the water level rising a drop at a time. And those who do notice won't really be able to do much about it.
All I can do in protest is not buy any TP.
I won't be buying any more for at least a couple months.
Please, this is too far.
Man.....I'm bummed now. We need a new head dev. This is utter garbage. I'm looking at many hundreds of dollars and many months of actual play time that might be just a memory now.
You are the new school, before that there was the old school.
I must be ancient, my ex-wife thinks I'm pre-school
We don't quite have a means of protest available to us with nearly the impact that EVE players do - if the story I've heard is true, mass numbers of you gathered together to bombard and blow up the main space station in the game (something the devs can't just "respawn")?
I FINALLY have cause to use a word I see used on the internet so freely and without merit...
This just gets more and more depressing all the time. Count me among the tinfoil hatters here. Given that they are putting into the store items that are typically rewards for questing and grouping (and learning your class in the process), there is now nothing stopping the game from eventually getting to a point where we'll have endgame players who got to 75 in a few weeks using store-bought accelerators, are fully geared and equipped with store-bought armor/weapons/jewelry/relics, and expect us to run endgame content with them even though they have no idea how to play.
I'm really missing the magic and wonder I felt when I first started playing this game. It used to be about the story and the community. Now it's all about the cash, and I don't see that ever changing.
The irony of this is that crafters are going to be the most angry about this change, when they are the ones that could have prevented it in the first place by keeping the AH stocked with more lower level gear. I've mentioned in many threads over the past couple of years how fast low to mid-level crafted crits sell on the AH when crafters gripe about how they can't make any money. But I guess it fell on deaf ears.
On my server I have never been able to sell a piece of critted T-2 to T-4 for more than I can get for the raw materials. Never After a while it's "why bother?"
Not that I'm saying this change is good - quite the opposite - now there will be even less reason for me to bother crafting anything.
I'm fairly new to the game, went VIP within a week of signing up, have purchased the MoM and RoI expansions and have been kind of semi-amused at all the "panick" from long term players over the F2P changes - until now. If this plays out the way we all pretty well know it is going to then I think I am really close to being done with LoTRO even though I've barely scratched the surface of the content I've already purchased.
I was planning on spending a fair amount of quality time in Middle Earth this weekend, but suddenly I don't even want to log into the game. I don't think I'll waste any more time on it for now, because if they stick with this decision I'm probably not even going to stick around long enough to get through Moria. I do not enjoy raiding or skirmishing - if they destroy crafting then I will not even be able to raise gold for equipment by selling raw materials on the AH - and the game is pretty much over for me.
Maybe there is a new expansion available for Fallout New Vegas - time to log into Steam and see how my weekend will be spent.
Sorry, but selling armour in the Store is NOT good. I don't like the very idea. I also don't like the idea of making Store-exclusive tier 7 stat tomes and making them available only for a limited time.
I don't know... is there some kind of gap in Turbine's 2011 bilance so they need to earn some money fast?
Sorry, but this is really not okay. I'd hate to have to move to another game, but it looks like Turbine is trying to make me go.
I'm fairly new to the game, went VIP within a week of signing up, have purchased the MoM and RoI expansions and have been kind of semi-amused at all the "panick" from long term players over the F2P changes - until now.
The long term players were "panicked" because we saw the direction Turbine was going. We saw Turbine take one step after another, yet people were always insisting the most recent step would be the last.
This isn't some huge leap, it's just the next logical step toward the inevitable. It's big in the sense that more people are recognizing it, and it's big in the sense that it came so soon after the last few steps (store-exclusive stat tomes and lootboxes), but it's really no surprise to those of us who knew what to look for.
Unfortunately, after years of positive feedback from people who virtually worshiped Turbine's every move, no amount of complaints will stop the trend.
I get that they want to make money - all fair. But if they're going to sell things, couldn't it at least be part of the game? I'd be ok with armor if they sold an 'extra-extra special pack' that allows you to do a new area/quest line to get that armor. Phased, instanced, whatever. Same with the horses. Let me buy *that,* even as a VIP/lifetime subscriber, and I wouldn't be so disillusioned. If it added to the content, I'd be fine with paying. This... just feels wrong.
Two threads in one: Today I realized that my trust in Turbine/WB was falsely placed, /facepalm...
As someone mentioned, I had a feeling but this is so blatant. I agree with this thread and think the weekend will be used in some other way. Not as a threat or anything, just feeling a little, you know, blah.
Players can most certainly protest this very easily by creating loads of gear to compete with these store abominations.
You're missing the point. These armor pieces are BETTER than anything else available at the same level, crafted or otherwise.
With the exception of tier 7, even stat tomes are attainable within the game. Maybe not reasonable, but possible. These armor sets cross even that line.
If you want to flood the market with cheap gear, be my guest, but those who were going to buy the sets will still buy them, because your "competition" is just a cheap knockoff as far as stats are concerned.
This is most definitely a step in the wrong direction. And at this point, after all mistakes Turbine has recently made, it's an incredibly poor sign for the game.
If they're serious about keeping this, I'll probably be spending my time and money on a different game. YOU drew the line in the sand, Turbine, with your previous comments on what would and would not happen, and now you're crossing it. Don't be surprised when a good chunk of your players disappear for good.
The hybrid system is good in theory, but it requires careful managing and a company willing to stick to what they promised. It's becoming pretty clear lately that Turbine is no longer that company. I think it will very soon be time to permanently find another one for many players.
Players will always temporarily leave to try other games, but LoTRO has always brought a good percentage back just because of its nature and that of its players. But now the game's nature, and that of the company running it, is changing. Going back on things you promised is not the way to instill confidence in the players that are still here or any players that might be returning.
I hope you prove me wrong, Turbine, but I don't see it happening. I think you're way too far down that slippery slope now.
I posted my thoughts on this shortly after seeing the massively article. Is this necessary in the game? Who knows, but considering there's nearly identical skirmish gear already sitting on the vendors I think there are many worse things in the store then these sets.
The store is sold as a trade-off between time and real-world money, this to me seems to fit that model better then many other items that have been there since the store launched.
Of all the ways you could have dealt with the lack of low level gear, this is how you do it? You could have increased the drop chance of armour on mobs. You could have put new armour in as skirmish rewards (the armour we have now is seriously lacking). You could have done it as rewards for turning in tasks. You could have put in incentives for high level crafters to focus more on low level stuff. Or just plain and simple quest rewards.
It's lower level gear. Many players have given us feedback that there is a sparcity of gear on the AH at these levels and they wanted an alternative. We're trying to accomodate that.
And where is this feedback located? Cuz I've never seen it; this exact statement has been said before when things were changed....and I remember then, just as I'm recalling now, ZERO mentions EVER of anyone saying "We need lower level gear cuz there's none to be found anywhere!!!" Has anyone ever seen a player say anything remotely like that? I thought not....What it does say to me is, "We're going to take away every ounce of 'fun' that we've created for players and make money off it" They've already made crafting a joke with every craftable item available in the store. They've already taken away tons of other things to make them available in the store.
Just when I was thinking of relenting on my boycott of the game (I've managed to stay away for a couple weeks now, but it's not been easy), I will not. You're truly sucking the game up Turbine!
~Nevanna~Lynxa~Amasal~
"I am rather tired, and no longer young enough to pillage the night to make up for the deficit of hours in the day..." JRR Tolkien, Letter # 174
YOU drew the line in the sand, Turbine, with your previous comments on what would and would not happen, and now you're crossing it.
"Convenience not advantage" was a line Turbine set for themselves. I doubt anyone could reasonably argue that line hasn't been crossed (stat tomes, stacking morale pots, legacy scrolls, etc).
"Premium loot and rare gear are the rewards of adventure and are only obtainable through gameplay." Again, another line that Turbine drew in the sand just to look the other way while they step over it.
"You will keep all your membership privileges as long as you keep paying your monthly fee." The ability to skip the newbie zone was a membership privilege, as was the ability to unslot relics that are no longer available via in-game means. Both of these membership privileges were revoked.
Turbine said they "would not sell any gear with stats attached". but even that line has been crossed.
I'm starting to think that those in charge have confused the term "line" with "arrow", and think they have to run at full speed across every line they see.
The store is sold as a trade-off between time and real-world money, this to me seems to fit that model better then many other items that have been there since the store launched.
Agreed. This has the potential to be less game-impacting than the T7 stat-tomes, if conditions are right. Turbine needs to spell out some things.
1. Define 'low level' (The point at which turbine will no longer sell gear for $)
2. Define 'maximum level' (because these apparently have a maximum use level as implied by +Sapiences post.)
3. Define 'minimum use level' (Because at level 20 these are BETTER than what you can buy, craft, or barter).
The key is Docholiday is comparing it to L30 gear.; At what point can I buy and wear this? L7? I've shown it's overpowered at 20.
I posted my thoughts on this shortly after seeing the massively article. Is this necessary in the game? Who knows, but considering there's nearly identical skirmish gear already sitting on the vendors I think there are many worse things in the store then these sets.
The store is sold as a trade-off between time and real-world money, this to me seems to fit that model better then many other items that have been there since the store launched.
Its not these sets in particular that's the problem, its what they represent. Yes, these aren't that big a deal overall, but it was Turbine who stated right at the start that they would not do this. Now that its something they said they wouldn't do, and have then done, how are people supposed to trust them when they say "don't worry, its only low-level gear"? It may only be a small thing just now, but that's how these things happen. If everyone just sits quietly and says "its ok, its only low-level gear. It doesn't make that much difference." then little by little more and more things will be added until one day they do add the big things. By then its too late.
You say in your article that they wouldn't add raid gear. That's what people used to say about them adding any gear. If its a convenience to buy low-level gear instead of grinding the few marks that it needs, is it not also a convenience to buy raid gear instead of grinding the raid for medallions/seals? Now I don't think that they will add raid gear any time soon, but that's the direction we're heading in with this latest addition.
Agreed. This has the potential to be less game-impacting than the T7 stat-tomes, if conditions are right. Turbine needs to spell out some things.
1. Define 'low level' (The point at which turbine will no longer sell gear for $)
2. Define 'maximum level' (because these apparently have a maximum use level as implied by +Sapiences post.)
3. Define 'minimum use level' (Because at level 20 these are BETTER than what you can buy, craft, or barter).
Even if Turbine was to spell them out, who would now believe them. They stated categorically that no gear containing stats would be sold in the store, so even just low level gear goes against this. Given all the other changes in direction in the past 12-18 months, Turbine (WB) have lost an awful lot of trust and respect that they will struggle to regain.
Agreed. This has the potential to be less game-impacting than the T7 stat-tomes, if conditions are right. Turbine needs to spell out some things.
1. Define 'low level' (The point at which turbine will no longer sell gear for $)
2. Define 'maximum level' (because these apparently have a maximum use level as implied by +Sapiences post.)
3. Define 'minimum use level' (Because at level 20 these are BETTER than what you can buy, craft, or barter).
At 25 they're better than what you can buy, craft, or barter. In fact they'd be best in slot items if you can use them at that level.
Joe "Jwbarry" Barry: "... because there was a thread in the book to hang ourselves from..." "We will not sell end-game gear. "
Orion: "Something needs to go here"
Hey! Remember when a lot of people pointed out that Turbine never bothered to go back and adjust any stats on class-specific armour for lower levels after they changed the whole stats system (and what people would actually want on that armour)?
Well, of course, why would they bother to do so. . . actually go out of their way to make in-game armour worthwhile when they were planning on rolling out store-purchased armour? Just wait a few months, I no longer doubt the upper-level armour is on the way.
I wish more people realized the inherent conflicts of interest this business model introduces.
As soon as they begin selling anything, it is then in their interests to make it less available in game, or make the in-game version less desirable. If they sell grind avoidance (and they do, via Virtues and slayer deed accelerators), then they are motivated to add grinds to the game (ie, the Virtue-revamp causing us to jettison old maxed out Virtues and adopt new ones we needed to grind out. . . or buy). Likewise, if they are selling armour in the game, they are now motivated to make other armour (earned through gameplay) less valuable.
Is it possible to resist such temptations? In the short-term, yes. In the long-term, no. Their revenues will always be expected to increase. Each and every quarter, they'll be asked to squeeze more and more from the existing business model. That's just the nature of things.
Suddenly very unmotivated to play. Even I didn't expect things to start going to heck at this pace. . .
I don't disagree with that, Stavro, but I think this is the worst example so far. Or rather, the best example that things are heading in the wrong direction.
Nobody really gives a #### about low level gear. You blow through those levels so fast that it's pointless. If morons want to spend real money on it, go for it. The problem is that this is directly going against something Turbine said would not happen, and can easily snowball into something that will drastically affect further parts of the game.
Stat tomes, legacies, store morale pots, etc...that's all grey area stuff, at least to me. I don't give a #### if the character you run in a raid does or doesn't have stat tomes, store morale pots, or whatever. They have minimal impact in the best of situations, and absolutely no impact in most situations.
Armor, though, can be different if this ever reaches the late stages of the game. And that's the problem...Turbine has been having a number of self-control issues lately, and coupled with their previous track record on these types of things, it's a very bad sign.
See my post directly above yours. They spelled out lots of things long ago, yet every one of those lines has been crossed.
At this point, what good is another set of lines? The point of a line is that it's something that WILL NOT be crossed. But since Turbine has show by their actions that lines are merely a suggestion rather than a rule, the only thing a new set of lines would be good for is to give people us a new set of quotes to point to when those lines are crossed in a few months.
I don't disagree with that, Stavro, but I think this is the worst example so far. Or rather, the best example that things are heading in the wrong direction.
Exactly my point (I was agreeing with you BTW ). This direction is nothing new, but it is disturbing that they're taking it this far, especially so soon after taking other controversial steps in the same direction.
At 25 they're better than what you can buy, craft, or barter. In fact they'd be best in slot items if you can use them at that level.
Yes. DocHoliday puts it on par with L30 gear. +Sapience describes it as L20ish gear. Clearly, we're not on the same page.
For those who say that what matters is endgame, I'd challenge Turbine to give us one good reason to believe they're going to stop here and not sell any other character levels of gear via the store in the future.
Scale it back. If its designed for level 20, it should be stated no better than level 20, and you should force people into quested gear or otherwise obtained gear by 25.
Bravo Turbine, WB, or whoever is running the ship over there. I was about to log in after a long drought today and decided to check the forums first. I was encouraged when I saw a patch coming on the 17th.
And then I saw this mess. Any interest I had in playing the game instantly evaporated when I read about armor in the store. To be honest, I'm not even mad anymore. Why should I care about the direction of this game when the people who are paid to develop/run it don't seem to?
Next time I log in (my last time) will be to give away the stuff in my vaults -- especially low-level crafting mats, as it appears I've missed the crisis of under-equipped lowbies running around.
---
PS - To those people who I've seen defend nearly EVERY tone-deaf money-grasping action that Turbine has taken over the last few years, I congratulate you. This really wouldn't have been possible without you.
...I'd challenge Turbine to give us one good reason to believe they're going to stop here and not sell any other character levels of gear via the store in the future.
Yes, that's exactly the problem. Turbine's word no longer carries any weight with the majority of the players. I've been a big supporter of the idea of this hybrid model, but even I'm now willing to admit Turbine is incapable of carrying through with any of their promises.
See my post directly above yours. They spelled out lots of things long ago, yet every one of those lines has been crossed.
At this point, what good is another set of lines? The point of a line is that it's something that WILL NOT be crossed. But since Turbine has show by their actions that lines are merely a suggestion rather than a rule, the only thing a new set of lines would be good for is to give people us a new set of quotes to point to when those lines are crossed in a few months.
It wouldn't take much to make these 'not advantage', and merely convenience.
Turbine's stated that the problem is its not on the AH, fine. put it on par with craftable AH gear and leave it be.
As for your other I feel they're both fundamental system overhauls and relic removal scrolls are a way to cling to the old system when its no longer required. Strictly convenience.
Sure you cant skip the starting instance with every character, but its a factor of server load, and the fact that we can grind points now and that the EASIEST way to grind is with a new character. You get 500 points for subscribing. Do you really roll more than 4 new characters every month and not play them long enough to earn 95 points on each of them?
A couple of weeks ago I was having a conversation with 5 other people I group with on Tuesday nights. The focus was the last paid expansion with its many faults and the sheer amount of items that are sold 'exclusively' in the store....a store we were told in the beginning would have nothing not available in-game.
One person (who has 3 accounts) had the attitude that she was going to stick it out until we finally reach Mordor but that she was very unhappy with some of the new changes. She said that she would just avoid the things that annoyed her and try and focus on having fun. The rest of us were a little less lenient. 2 have been here since very early Beta (when you actually had to aim at targets and before there was any Race but Human) and another has been here since Beta (to include working on Isengard / Palantir for each successive expansion).
We just had another discussion about this change and how more and more this game is coming to exist virtually for the sole purpose of channeling players to the Turbine Store. My friend with the 'stick it out' attitude has pretty much decided to throw in the towel, abandon her houses, liquidate her belongings and spend a week or so handing things off to random people (most likely RP folks) before wiping the game from her system and walking away because she is a Crafter and for her, this is a slap in the face. She spends (spent I guess is now more accurate) hours weekly harvesting and Crafting both for guildies and for AH purposes....hell, she's had run by gifting sessions.
I do not know what Server has a shortage of gear but I for one have crafting alts of every stripe and I dump items on the AH constantly and at or below the 'going prices' of other similar items. I get roughly 1/4 returned after time runs out. I don't post non crit items, I vend those. I have seen a lot of things in this game that have made me shake my head but until now I'd not seen anything to really make me lose all faith in the Vision of the Team....tarnished yes, bent, dinged but never lost.....
Do you really roll more than 4 new characters every month and not play them long enough to earn 95 points on each of them?
1. Between bank and crafting alts, all my slots are filled with characters that already completed the lowest level deeds. I suppose I could go to a new server to grind points, but that means I can't save any of the crafting mats I pick up.
2. Grinding points really isn't relevant to my comment, which was about the lines Turbine drew for themselves. If every line can be dismissed with some excuse, how long will it be before they come up with an excuse to wipe away this line and bring in end-game gear?
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). This direction is nothing new, but it is disturbing that they're taking it this far, especially so soon after taking other controversial steps in the same direction.
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