Thread: Champion DPS

Originally Posted by Miretocot

I am a firm believer that DW significantly lowers your single target DPS (from many parses with 2nd Agers that I reported earlier in this thread).

No, it doesn't, especially not significantly (if there really is any difference in DPS it's at best marginal). I can also hit 2k+ DPS on a training dummy with my DW setup. I'm currently short of playing time, but I will go back to a dummy and post a screenshot if I get around to doing so (just don't expect it to happen over the nex few days).

The only major difference between DW and 2h is power consumption

Originally Posted by Vodomir

No, it doesn't, especially not significantly (if there really is any difference in DPS it's at best marginal). I can also hit 2k+ DPS on a training dummy with my DW setup. I'm currently short of playing time, but I will go back to a dummy and post a screenshot if I get around to doing so (just don't expect it to happen over the nex few days).

The only 2k-plus Champion dummy parses I've seen on this forum are from 2Hs; so even if you can, you are likely an exception. And the same goes for the top Champions on my server.

Edit: I might craft a 1H FA soon, since I have FAs on my Hunter and Burglar alts as well now. So I might re-test. But I think it is significant that--unlike just about everyone here who have opined on the issue--I actually tested both under equalized conditions (i.e., I actually used both set-ups while leveling so have equal experience with both, I used roughly equivalent gear, etc.).

Originally Posted by Miretocot

The only 2k-plus Champion dummy parses I've seen on this forum are from 2Hs; so even if you can, you are likely an exception. And the same goes for the top Champions on my server.

Edit: I might craft a 1H FA soon, since I have FAs on my Hunter and Burglar alts as well now. So I might re-test. But I think it is significant that--unlike just about everyone here who have opined on the issue--I actually tested both under equalized conditions (i.e., I actually used both set-ups while leveling so have equal experience with both, I used roughly equivalent gear, etc.).

Well, I parsed in the same region as 2H and/or macroswapping champions in the pre-Great River era (see posts earlier in this thread) and I also parse in the same region as the top 2H players parse now, so it's likely not an inherent disadvantage of 1H weapons. Maybe I am an exceptional player, but the same holds true for all 2k+ DPS Champs using a 2H, as that's also not the common DPS found amongst the average 2H champs out there.

I will probably craft a 2H weapon some day to see if I can hit harder with that, but I somehow doubt it (I used both DW and 2H in the pre-RoI era and didn't notice any significant difference other than power consumption).

Originally Posted by Vodomir

Well, I parsed in the same region as 2H and/or macroswapping champions in the pre-Great River era (see posts earlier in this thread) and I also parse in the same region as the top 2H players parse now, so it's likely not an inherent disadvantage of 1H weapons. Maybe I am an exceptional player, but the same holds true for all 2k+ DPS Champs using a 2H, as that's also not the common DPS found amongst the average 2H champs out there.

As far as I'm concerned there's three types of champs.
1. The ones who stack will (i.e. people who don't know what they're doing)
2. People who balance (i.e. decent all round players that, unfortunately, don't exel in any area but can still hold their ground against a lot of players)
3. Players who specialize in something (i.e. players who specialize in something thus becoming one of the best at what they do)

Needless to say, most players fall under category number 2 and then you have about equal numbers in categories 1 and 3. There will always be decent players as well as awesome players... and the ones that yuo don't group with (e.g. ranged burgs). So in all honesty you're more likely to encounter a group 2 champ than a group 1 or 3... and at this point i realize i forgot what i'm writing about...

Originally Posted by Vodomir

...I also parse in the same region as the top 2H players parse now, so it's likely not an inherent disadvantage of 1H weapons. Maybe I am an exceptional player, but the same holds true for all 2k+ DPS Champs using a 2H, as that's also not the common DPS found amongst the average 2H champs out there.

Two things: First, it depends on what you consider a "significant" difference, but I consider 5-10 percent very significant. And 5 percent is the gap I had in my 2nd Ager testing, and 5-10 percent gap seems about what I see on parses here between 2H and DW.

Keep in mind that 2k is my "average" parse, not best parse. So it's not enough that you can show me your can do a 2k parse but either average it or come close to my top recent parse after getting all 3 Crystals maxed (2340 when I stopped attacking on that 2174 parse). And as I have said, I think with Crit/Dev luck, much higher parse is possible, and I have not done that many parses since I've gotten the Saruman necklace and Crystals maxed.

Second, again let me elaborate on the fact that you might be an exceptionally high DW parser. While this is not quantifiable in any ways, my sense from observing my server is that maybe slightly less than half of end-game kin Champions use DW. So the number of high parses I see from DWs should be as many as those I see from 2Hs. And that just isn't the case. I don't know anyone on my server even doing 1800 with DW; and here all we have is you saying you can do 2k (I don't see a screenshot, but I believe you), whereas there have been 4-5 2k-plus screenshots from 2H from this forum. Shouldn't there be more DWs breaking 2k?

Originally Posted by Fralin

As far as I'm concerned there's three types of champs.
1. The ones who stack will (i.e. people who don't know what they're doing)
2. People who balance (i.e. decent all round players that, unfortunately, don't exel in any area but can still hold their ground against a lot of players)
3. Players who specialize in something (i.e. players who specialize in something thus becoming one of the best at what they do)

Needless to say, most players fall under category number 2 and then you have about equal numbers in categories 1 and 3. There will always be decent players as well as awesome players... and the ones that yuo don't group with (e.g. ranged burgs). So in all honesty you're more likely to encounter a group 2 champ than a group 1 or 3... and at this point i realize i forgot what i'm writing about...

Bell Curve?

(I approve.)

Originally Posted by Miretocot

Two things: First, it depends on what you consider a "significant" difference, but I consider 5-10 percent very significant. And 5 percent is the gap I had in my 2nd Ager testing, and 5-10 percent gap seems about what I see on parses here between 2H and DW.

Keep in mind that 2k is my "average" parse, not best parse. So it's not enough that you can show me your can do a 2k parse but either average it or come close to my top recent parse after getting all 3 Crystals maxed (2340 when I stopped attacking on that 2174 parse). And as I have said, I think with Crit/Dev luck, much higher parse is possible, and I have not done that many parses since I've gotten the Saruman necklace and Crystals maxed.

Second, again let me elaborate on the fact that you might be an exceptionally high DW parser. While this is not quantifiable in any ways, my sense from observing my server is that maybe slightly less than half of end-game kin Champions use DW. So the number of high parses I see from DWs should be as many as those I see from 2Hs. And that just isn't the case. I don't know anyone on my server even doing 1800 with DW; and here all we have is you saying you can do 2k (I don't see a screenshot, but I believe you), whereas there have been 4-5 2k-plus screenshots from 2H from this forum. Shouldn't there be more DWs breaking 2k?

Problems that I see with testing DW v. 2-handers:

1) Skill difference between players makes it hard to get valid results (i.e., can't really control the biggest variable);
2) Comparative parses by a single person suffer from a similar issue: the unlikelihood that one person is equally skilled at both setups;
3) Addendum to #2: bias. Most people testing do seem to favor one style over another, which could lead to a lesser performance at their disfavored style (albeit unconscious), and;
4) We're so bloody crit luck-dependent for our DPS that the sheer number of parses needed to establish any sort of valid number has got to be pretty high (anecdotally, I've had parses vary by over 1k on the first F&F giant in the same night with the exact same group and strat each time).

Ignoring all of that, the fact that we even still have this debate with Combat Analysis available leads me to believe that there still is really very little difference, if any ("very little" meaning 1% or so).

Just gonna repost my new theory that, even if 2h is capable of higher dummy parses, higher acheived crit and dev percentages in raid situations will favor a DW build more than a 2H build, as Remorseless has huge crit/dev multipliers compared to Brutal, which in the end likely does a lot to equalize the DPS potential of both playstyles in real situations.

Originally Posted by Gylve

Just gonna repost my new theory that, even if 2h is capable of higher dummy parses, higher acheived crit and dev percentages in raid situations will favor a DW build more than a 2H build, as Remorseless has huge crit/dev multipliers compared to Brutal, which in the end likely does a lot to equalize the DPS potential of both playstyles in real situations.

Brutal has some pretty huge crit multiplires as well, not as big as remorseless but it's supplemented by the fact that you have 3 chance to crit and the last 2 brutals can crit for 4-5k probably more depending on buffs/burgs. With DW you're solely relying on that remorseless crit but with 2H even WA crits for ~3-4k. A 40% crit rating for DW doesn't mean anything unless at least 20% of that is on remorseless whereas 40% on 2H is pretty solid irrespective of the skills it crits on.

Originally Posted by Miretocot

Yeah, I noticed that as well from recent parses, and I was puzzled too. But now I am pretty sure it's the extra bleeds from Deep Strikes, because I have been going PvP a lot, and I only Trait it for PvP. (I am a PvP newb so I am not sure I am doing the right thing, but I get rid of At the Ready and Blood Lust and get Deep Strikes and Athletic when I PvP). Otherwise I see no other explanations.

Also, I am going to swap the Physical Mastery Runes out for -Attack Duration ones and compare, and see if the -Attack Duration ones boost your DPS as much as some here have claimed they do (I think folks here calculated slightly over 5 percent for equipping it on both LIs?!). I've always been a skeptic and frankly never had enough of a Shards reserve to get those on both of my LIs AND switch it back if I don't like it. But now I probably can afford to do so.

As for my 1k extra Physical Mastery, isn't that entirely explained by the fact that you use -Attack Duration Runes? 29k shouldn't be difficult to achieve if you don't use -Attack Duration Runes; and dual wielders can get higher, though I am a firm believer that DW significantly lowers your single target DPS (from many parses with 2nd Agers that I reported earlier in this thread).

Do let us know of your results because if you get more hits like 130+ it could mean I'm missing something or my ISP sux(latter more likely in which case I'm helpless). I do feel a significant combat flow and dps different when I use the -att duration runes compared to PM ones, I'd say at least 5% dps difference.

I used to experiment with DW vs 2H in SoM and results were neck to neck so I picked 2H just because of preference but in RoI I've noticed I'm always 200-300 dps behind what my 2H is parsing so I just stick to 2H. I've tried many variations of relics/rotations/builds but never can get close to my 2H parses.

The second two hits of Brutal have a lower crit multiplier than the first one, actually in the same neighborhood as an auto attack. The red line set bonus just brings them up to the same level as the first hit.

The math is still solid though. Say that, unbuffed, you're parsing 5% higher DPS on a dummy with a 2h. If crit multipliers were removed as a factor in the equation, raid-buffed crit chance should affect both builds exactly equally. However, in reality the staple strike skill in a DW rotation (Remorseless) simply has way bigger crit and dev multipliers than the staple strike skill in a 2H rotation (Brutal), making extra crit % in a raid situation more beneficial to the DW champ than to the 2H champ. My theory is that this benefit is likely enough to make DW DPS equal to 2H DPS when things like much-overcapped crit come into play (i.e. with RK lightning Runesign, burgs, etc.).

Originally Posted by Vodomir

I can also hit 2k+ DPS on a training dummy with my DW setup.

Could you post your setup?

Originally Posted by Shintagh

Do let us know of your results because if you get more hits like 130+ it could mean I'm missing something or my ISP sux(latter more likely in which case I'm helpless). I do feel a significant combat flow and dps different when I use the -att duration runes compared to PM ones, I'd say at least 5% dps difference.

I should've mentioned that lag is another reason why I was reluctant to try the Attack Duration runes, even if they parse higher than Physical Mastery runes on a dummy test. In raids there is inevitably more lag, and you will get fewer hits in when lag happens. So it seems to me more reasonable to maximize each hit rather than trying to get more hits in.

Originally Posted by Gylve

Just gonna repost my new theory that, even if 2h is capable of higher dummy parses, higher acheived crit and dev percentages in raid situations will favor a DW build more than a 2H build, as Remorseless has huge crit/dev multipliers compared to Brutal, which in the end likely does a lot to equalize the DPS potential of both playstyles in real situations.

It's really impossible to compare raid DPS since so many other variable factors are involved. That's precisely why people commonly use unbuffed dummy parses But I'd like to see at least a more detailed math behind your claim.

Originally Posted by Gylve

The second two hits of Brutal have a lower crit multiplier than the first one, actually in the same neighborhood as an auto attack. The red line set bonus just brings them up to the same level as the first hit.

The math is still solid though. Say that, unbuffed, you're parsing 5% higher DPS on a dummy with a 2h. If crit multipliers were removed as a factor in the equation, raid-buffed crit chance should affect both builds exactly equally. However, in reality the staple strike skill in a DW rotation (Remorseless) simply has way bigger crit and dev multipliers than the staple strike skill in a 2H rotation (Brutal), making extra crit % in a raid situation more beneficial to the DW champ than to the 2H champ. My theory is that this benefit is likely enough to make DW DPS equal to 2H DPS when things like much-overcapped crit come into play (i.e. with RK lightning Runesign, burgs, etc.).

What math? There's no math here. Yet.

The reality of DW vs 2H is that DW does a larger percentage of its damage building fervor (blade wall, wa) and 2h does more damage with its finisher(s). Ignoring auto attacks for the sake of comparison.

The pip builders for a 2h are swift strike and wild attack, DW uses blade wall and wild attack. DW will do more damage on these skills because it's getting extra hits in. It will also build more fervor from the extra hit on WA.

You realize, if remorseless was a better finisher than brutal strikes, 2h champs would just use remorseless. There's nothing to prevent them from doing so.

Well, I'm no math wizard, but from what I know:

Brutal strikes has normal skill crit multipliers for the first hit: 150% crits, 200% devs. The following two hits give you only 110% crits and 160% devs. The +40% bonus for redline makes these the same as the first: 150% and 200%. Deadly Strikes makes this 175% and 225%. The weapon legacy sadly only affects the crit mag and not the dev mag, topping out at 225% and 225% (crits and devs hit the same).

Remorseless just has way bigger multipliers: 200% crits and 400% devs, natively. Deadly makes it 225% crits and 425% devs, then the weapon legacy makes it 275% crits and 425% devs.

I'm pretty sure the 10% strikes crit mag on the 5 piece ToO set works for both crits and devs, making it 235%/235% for Brutal and 285%/435% for Remorseless.

Here comes some fuzzy math:

Let's pretend each hit of Brutal does 1000 damage, and that you're at the crit cap. That means that 65% of your Brutal Strike hits hit for 1000 damage, 25% hit for 2350 (crits) and 10% hit for 2350 (devs). This averages out to 1472.5 damage per hit, or 4417.5 damage per use of Brutal Strikes.

A different champ is using Remorseless, which also hits for 1000 damage (we'll ignore the wimpy offhand hit just to make it easier). He's also at crit cap. 65% of hits are doing 1000 damage, 25% are doing 2850 damage and 10% are doing 4350 damage. This averages out to 1797.5 damage per use of Remorseless.

Now, let's add one burg to these raids, using non-traited Counter-Defense for a 3% crit increase. We'll also suppose that CD only affects crit chance and not dev chance because I honestly have no idea if it does or not.

The Brutal champ is now hitting 1000 damage for 62% of BS hits, 2350 damage for 38% of hits (28% crit chance + 10% dev chance). This has increase his damage to an average of 1513 per BS hit or 4539 damage per use of brutal on average. This is an overall increase of 2.75% damage.

The Remorseless champ is now hitting 1000 damage 62% of the time, 2850 damage 28% of the time and 4350 damage 10% of the time. He's now averaging 1853 damage per Remorseless, which is a 3.08% increase in damage.

The gap is going to widen as you continue to overcap crit. Burgs can trait to make CD be 6% instead of 3%, CD adds per burg, and the RK runesign buff overcaps crit as well. If those crit overcapping debuffs/buffs increase devastate chance as well, the gap would be even wider because of the huge dev multiplier on Remorseless. (Unfortunately, I don't think they do, but the point still stands).

Even so, with 3 burgs using Opportunist-traited CD and the champ buffed by Improved Rune-sign of Storm, someone with capped crit will now be sitting at 25+6+6+6+4 = 47% crit. In that scenario, the BS champ's damage is increased by 20.17%, while the Remorseless champ's damage is increased by 22.64% over their normal crit-capped damage. That's about a 2.5% increase in damage DW gets over 2h.

It's safe to ignore things in your rotation (including auto-attacks) other than BS and RS because there aren't different crit multipliers for them depending on DW vs. 2H (i.e. auto-attacks have the same gimpy crit multipliers for both, Swift Strike has the same crit multiplier as Blade-wall, etc.)

Not to mention that, with Blood Lust traited for both champs, increased actual crit % with Wild Attack is going to be more beneficial to the Dual Wield champ than the 2H champ because both attacks can crit for the Dual Wielder, giving three total pips instead of just two, allowing the Dual Wielder to either skip using other, weaker Fervour builders or use more filler strikes skills more often.

EDIT: Nowhere did I say that Remorseless is a "better finisher" than Brutal. I still think it's pretty clear that Brutal is better for a 2H champ, hands down. All I'm saying is that a DW, Remorseless-spam rotation benefits MORE from the type of crit overcapping that's being realized in current raid content than a 2H Brutal-centric rotation. In my example above, you can see how the difference is very small if you go just a little bit over cap, but becomes much, much wider the further over cap you go.

Now, it *is* pretty much impossible to get really comparable dummy parses for DW vs. 2H as there's always going to be differences in stats, player biases when parsing, etc. For the sake of argument, let's say that 2H can potentially do 10% or even 20% more DPS in a dummy parse at crit cap. Take that into a raid with 3 burgs with CD traited and put Improved Rune-sign of Storm on these champs, and the DW champ is going to more than close that gap.

Originally Posted by Gylve

Well, I'm no math wizard, but from what I know:

Brutal strikes has normal skill crit multipliers for the first hit: 150% crits, 200% devs. The following two hits give you only 110% crits and 160% devs. The +40% bonus for redline makes these the same as the first: 150% and 200%. Deadly Strikes makes this 175% and 225%. The weapon legacy sadly only affects the crit mag and not the dev mag, topping out at 225% and 225% (crits and devs hit the same).

Remorseless just has way bigger multipliers: 200% crits and 400% devs, natively. Deadly makes it 225% crits and 425% devs, then the weapon legacy makes it 275% crits and 425% devs.

I'm pretty sure the 10% strikes crit mag on the 5 piece ToO set works for both crits and devs, making it 235%/235% for Brutal and 285%/435% for Remorseless.

Here comes some fuzzy math:

Let's pretend each hit of Brutal does 1000 damage, and that you're at the crit cap. That means that 65% of your Brutal Strike hits hit for 1000 damage, 25% hit for 2350 (crits) and 10% hit for 2350 (devs). This averages out to 1472.5 damage per hit, or 4417.5 damage per use of Brutal Strikes.

A different champ is using Remorseless, which also hits for 1000 damage (we'll ignore the wimpy offhand hit just to make it easier). He's also at crit cap. 65% of hits are doing 1000 damage, 25% are doing 2850 damage and 10% are doing 4350 damage. This averages out to 1797.5 damage per use of Remorseless.

Now, let's add one burg to these raids, using non-traited Counter-Defense for a 3% crit increase. We'll also suppose that CD only affects crit chance and not dev chance because I honestly have no idea if it does or not.

The Brutal champ is now hitting 1000 damage for 62% of BS hits, 2350 damage for 38% of hits (28% crit chance + 10% dev chance). This has increase his damage to an average of 1513 per BS hit or 4539 damage per use of brutal on average. This is an overall increase of 2.75% damage.

The Remorseless champ is now hitting 1000 damage 62% of the time, 2850 damage 28% of the time and 4350 damage 10% of the time. He's now averaging 1853 damage per Remorseless, which is a 3.08% increase in damage.

The gap is going to widen as you continue to overcap crit. Burgs can trait to make CD be 6% instead of 3%, CD adds per burg, and the RK runesign buff overcaps crit as well. If those crit overcapping debuffs/buffs increase devastate chance as well, the gap would be even wider because of the huge dev multiplier on Remorseless. (Unfortunately, I don't think they do, but the point still stands).

Even so, with 3 burgs using Opportunist-traited CD and the champ buffed by Improved Rune-sign of Storm, someone with capped crit will now be sitting at 25+6+6+6+4 = 47% crit. In that scenario, the BS champ's damage is increased by 20.17%, while the Remorseless champ's damage is increased by 51.03% over their normal crit-capped damage.

It's safe to ignore things in your rotation (including auto-attacks) other than BS and RS because there aren't different crit multipliers for them depending on DW vs. 2H (i.e. auto-attacks have the same gimpy crit multipliers for both, Swift Strike has the same crit multiplier as Blade-wall, etc.)

Not to mention that, with Blood Lust traited for both champs, increased actual crit % with Wild Attack is going to be more beneficial to the Dual Wield champ than the 2H champ because both attacks can crit for the Dual Wielder, giving three total pips instead of just two, allowing the Dual Wielder to either skip using other, weaker Fervour builders or use more filler strikes skills more often.

EDIT: Nowhere did I say that Remorseless is a "better finisher" than Brutal. I still think it's pretty clear that Brutal is better for a 2H champ, hands down. All I'm saying is that a DW, Remorseless-spam rotation benefits MORE from the type of crit overcapping that's being realized in current raid content than a 2H Brutal-centric rotation. In my example above, you can see how the difference is very small if you go just a little bit over cap, but becomes much, much wider the further over cap you go.

Now, it *is* pretty much impossible to get really comparable dummy parses for DW vs. 2H as there's always going to be differences in stats, player biases when parsing, etc. For the sake of argument, let's say that 2H can potentially do 10% or even 20% more DPS in a dummy parse at crit cap. Take that into a raid with 3 burgs with CD traited and put Improved Rune-sign of Storm on these champs, and the DW champ is going to more than close that gap.

I’m no math wiz either but from what I know:

Your assumption that brutal and remorseless do same 1000 dmg is wrong. 1 Brutal = 3 strikes and 1 Remorseless = 2 strikes(2nd one being poop dmg). Now from memory my 2h brutal does 800-1250 dmg where as dw remorseless 1300 – 1600.

Let’s look at a scenario where 2 champs make 10 attacks, 1 with 2h brutal and the other with dw remorseless.

Scenario A: Horrible luck i.e no crits

Brutal dmg = (800+1250)/2 *3 *10 = 30750
Rem dmg = (1300 + 1600)/2 * 10 = 7500 + offhand(~900 * 10) = 24000

Scenario B: Amazing luck i.e 30% crit 10% dev

Brutal dmg = 3*10 = 30 total hits of which 9 are crit (1250 * 9 * 235% = 26436) 2 are dev ( 1250 * 3 * 235% = 8812) and 18 are normal dmg (horrible luck total dmg/30 * 18 = 18450) which makes a total of 53698

Remorseless dmg = 10 total hits of which 3 are crit (1600 * 3 * 285% = 9120 + offhand(900*3) = 16380) and 1 is dev (1600 * 485% + offhand(900) = 8660) and 6 are normal dmg ( horrible luck total dmg/10 * 6 = 14400) which makes a total of 39440

To relate to a practical situation we can average out the horrible and amazing luck dmg which makes brutal stand at 42224 and remorseless at 31720.

Unless I screwed up colossally it's clear that brutal does far superior damage then remorseless in both non-crit and high crit conditions. The only think remorseless has going for it is the dev multiplier but here's the problem. 10% dev is pretty much the absolute max anyone can get in a reasonable build and I'm not aware of any buffs that increase you dev chance directly(short of fire ring).

Bringing in 3 burgs means +18% crit chances and if you do that math for 48% crit chance brutal still comes out ahead and 48% is as high a crit chance you're ever going to get.

So the argument that DW REMORSELESS does more damage then 2H BRUTAL in high crit settings is not a valid one. The reason DW compares to 2H is the pip builder crits and auto attacks which is a separate discussion I won't get into right now.

Originally Posted by Shintagh

I’m no math wiz either but from what I know:

Your assumption that brutal and remorseless do same 1000 dmg is wrong. 1 Brutal = 3 strikes and 1 Remorseless = 2 strikes(2nd one being poop dmg). Now from memory my 2h brutal does 800-1250 dmg where as dw remorseless 1300 – 1600.

Let’s look at a scenario where 2 champs make 10 attacks, 1 with 2h brutal and the other with dw remorseless.

Scenario A: Horrible luck i.e no crits

Brutal dmg = (800+1250)/2 *3 *10 = 30750
Rem dmg = (1300 + 1600)/2 * 10 = 7500 + offhand(~900 * 10) = 24000

Scenario B: Amazing luck i.e 30% crit 10% dev

Brutal dmg = 3*10 = 30 total hits of which 9 are crit (1250 * 9 * 235% = 26436) 2 are dev ( 1250 * 3 * 235% = 8812) and 18 are normal dmg (horrible luck total dmg/30 * 18 = 18450) which makes a total of 53698

Remorseless dmg = 10 total hits of which 3 are crit (1600 * 3 * 285% = 9120 + offhand(900*3) = 16380) and 1 is dev (1600 * 485% + offhand(900) = 8660) and 6 are normal dmg ( horrible luck total dmg/10 * 6 = 14400) which makes a total of 39440

To relate to a practical situation we can average out the horrible and amazing luck dmg which makes brutal stand at 42224 and remorseless at 31720.

Unless I screwed up colossally it's clear that brutal does far superior damage then remorseless in both non-crit and high crit conditions. The only think remorseless has going for it is the dev multiplier but here's the problem. 10% dev is pretty much the absolute max anyone can get in a reasonable build and I'm not aware of any buffs that increase you dev chance directly(short of fire ring).

Bringing in 3 burgs means +18% crit chances and if you do that math for 48% crit chance brutal still comes out ahead and 48% is as high a crit chance you're ever going to get.

So the argument that DW REMORSELESS does more damage then 2H BRUTAL in high crit settings is not a valid one. The reason DW compares to 2H is the pip builder crits and auto attacks which is a separate discussion I won't get into right now.

You miss the point that I can easily fire off more Remoresless Strikes in any given timeframe than you could with Brutal, due to the faster pip building in DW setup and due to the much shorter CD of Remorseless ... heck sometimes I even run into CD issues with Remorseless, so waiting for Brutal CD is a killer in a DW setup.

Originally Posted by Vodomir

You miss the point that I can easily fire off more Remoresless Strikes in any given timeframe than you could with Brutal, due to the faster pip building in DW setup and due to the much shorter CD of Remorseless ... heck sometimes I even run into CD issues with Remorseless, so waiting for Brutal CD is a killer in a DW setup.

That is precisely what my last sentence said. I never claimed that DW is &&&& and 2h is the way to go, just the misconception that DW REMORSELESS does more dmg than 2H BRUTAL in high crit circumstances. Like I said due to faster attack speed and better pip builders where a 2h gets 10 brutals off a dw gets 12-13 remorseless hits off and that is what makes dw comparable to 2h.

I'm pretty sure you missed my point completely.

The 1000 damage numbers were just to make the calculations easier. I just picked a number that's somewhere in the realm of reality and that's it.

The point is that overcapping crit rating very clearly is *more* beneficial to a rotation that favors a skill with a higher crit magnitude (Remorseless) than one with a lower crit magnitude (Brutal). Period.

I'm also not even close to saying that DW Remorseless is BETTER than 2h Brutal in these overcapped crit situations. I'm just saying that the way overcapping crit by huge amounts, which CLEARLY (I really don't know how I can be more clear here) favors Remorseless more than Brutal, helps put DW into the same ballpark in these situations as 2H DPS on a single target.

Edit: the pip builders (specifically Blood-Lusted Wild Attack) I already covered, but I fail to see how auto-attacks would make any difference. DW and 2H auto attacks have the same crit multipliers and will benefit by exactly the same magnitudes due to raid buffs (crit, damage, attack duration).

Originally Posted by Gylve

I'm pretty sure you missed my point completely.

The 1000 damage numbers were just to make the calculations easier. I just picked a number that's somewhere in the realm of reality and that's it.

The point is that overcapping crit rating very clearly is *more* beneficial to a rotation that favors a skill with a higher crit magnitude (Remorseless) than one with a lower crit magnitude (Brutal). Period.

I'm also not even close to saying that DW Remorseless is BETTER than 2h Brutal in these overcapped crit situations. I'm just saying that the way overcapping crit by huge amounts, which CLEARLY (I really don't know how I can be more clear here) favors Remorseless more than Brutal, helps put DW into the same ballpark in these situations as 2H DPS on a single target.

Edit: the pip builders (specifically Blood-Lusted Wild Attack) I already covered, but I fail to see how auto-attacks would make any difference. DW and 2H auto attacks have the same crit multipliers and will benefit by exactly the same magnitudes due to raid buffs (crit, damage, attack duration).

There is a difference between making an assumption to simplify things and assumptions that are just wrong. 1000 dmg on brutal means 3000 damage where as remorseless it means 1000 + offhand. Your conclusion was right, your calculations were wrong. I already showed you what bottlenecks remorseless's high dev magnitude, the fact that 10% dev is the max you get and from my calculations it's clear that brutal does much more dmg than remorseless in high crit situation. It's important to note the difference between crit and devs. As far as auto attacks are concerned it's not the crit multiplier its the fact that you have A LOT more auto attacks in DW hence a lot more crits.

My calculations used 1000 damage per hit of Brutal, i.e. three hits per use of Brutal Strikes. I did all of the subsequent math accounting for the fact that each use of brutal is three hits.

Edit: just to reiterate, the damage I picked doesn't even matter at all. I could have picked one million damage per hit of brutal and 10 damage per hit of remorseless, and the calculations would have given the exact same % damage increases as a result of overcapping crit, showing that overcapping crit is more beneficial to Remorseless than it is to Brutal.

Originally Posted by Vodomir

You miss the point that I can easily fire off more Remoresless Strikes in any given timeframe than you could with Brutal, due to the faster pip building in DW setup and due to the much shorter CD of Remorseless ... heck sometimes I even run into CD issues with Remorseless, so waiting for Brutal CD is a killer in a DW setup.

You just made me miss the OD set for a little bit there...

Originally Posted by Gylve

Even so, with 3 burgs using Opportunist-traited CD and the champ buffed by Improved Rune-sign of Storm, someone with capped crit will now be sitting at 25+6+6+6+4 = 47% crit. In that scenario, the BS champ's damage is increased by 20.17%, while the Remorseless champ's damage is increased by 51.03% over their normal crit-capped damage.

I seem to be getting the same numbers for the BS increase in damage, but only a 22.6% or so increase for the remorseless champ. The difference in crit magnitudes (235% vs 285%) probably isn't enough to make a substantial difference when you're looking at an increase from 25% to 47% crit rating due to the DR on both crit magnitude and crit itself.

I don't follow. Crit magnitudes just add together. No diminishing returns there.

There are diminishing returns on crit rating, yes. That's why we're discussing crit capped toons that are being overcapped by straight percentage increases. There's no diminishing returns involved when you jump from 25% crit rating to 28%. 3% more of your attacks will be critical hits, period.

Yep, accidentally botched that number. It is about 22.64%. Will edit in the post, but that's still a 2.5% dps increase lead over 2h, which is pretty substantial IMO.

Originally Posted by Gylve

I don't follow. Crit magnitudes just add together. No diminishing returns there.

There are diminishing returns on crit rating, yes. That's why we're discussing crit capped toons that are being overcapped by straight percentage increases. There's no diminishing returns involved when you jump from 25% crit rating to 28%. 3% more of your attacks will be critical hits, period.

Yep, accidentally botched that number. It is about 22.64%. Will edit in the post, but that's still a 2.5% dps increase lead over 2h, which is pretty substantial IMO.

It has diminishing returns in terms of % dps increased. While a 285% crit magnitude is 50% higher than a 235% crit magnitude, it's only a 21% difference in damage between the crits. It's slightly more complicated when you're looking at crits and non-crits together but the same principle holds. Likewise, going from 0 to 3% crit and 25 to 28% crit rating will give you the same dps increase; however, since you're already at a higher dps at 25%, the increase of dps is smaller compared your original dps than if you had started at 0%. Ultimately a 2.5% difference is probably well within the uncertainty of the parses (1950 dps vs 2000 dps), so you would expect the dummy parses to be essentially the same if the raid dps was to be the same.

I personally think manual swapping is the most "accurate" way of playing. Swapping has the same finishers as a 2h build, but builds pips faster while doing more damage. It also builds pips faster and/or does more damage than a dw build while having the 2h finishers.

Originally Posted by Gylve

My calculations used 1000 damage per hit of Brutal, i.e. three hits per use of Brutal Strikes. I did all of the subsequent math accounting for the fact that each use of brutal is three hits.

Edit: just to reiterate, the damage I picked doesn't even matter at all. I could have picked one million damage per hit of brutal and 10 damage per hit of remorseless, and the calculations would have given the exact same % damage increases as a result of overcapping crit, showing that overcapping crit is more beneficial to Remorseless than it is to Brutal.

Wrong again. Overcapping DEV chance is more beneficial for remorseless and I already explained why in the current soft cap on dev chance it doesn't make any difference.

If you're interested in percentages here are some for you.

Remorseless crit multiplier = 285% means total damage on crit = 285% of normal damage
Brutal crit multiplier = 235% for 3 hits means 235%*3 = 705% increase of total damage

Now lets look at dev

Remorseless dev multiplier = 485% means total damage on crit = 485% of normal damage
Brutal dev multiplier = 235% means 235%3 = 705% of total damage

Remorseless still clearly behind but here is when remorseless will get ahead of brutal. Because of faster attack speed and better pip builders we say when a 2h champs gets 1 brutal off the dw champ gets 2 remorselesses off. Let's look at the percentages again.

Remorseless crit multiplier = 285% means total damage on crit = 285% of normal damage + if the 2nd hit doesn't crit we get 385% of normal damage but if it does crit we get 570% of normal damage.
Brutal crit multiplier = 235% for 3 hits means 235%*3 = 705% increase of total damage

Clearly we see that even after DOUBLING the crit chance and hit of remorseless it's still behind.

Now lets look at dev

Remorseless dev multiplier = 485% means total damage on crit = 485% of normal damage + if the 2nd hit doesnt crit we get 585% of normal damage but if it does crit we get 970% of normal damage.
Brutal dev multiplier = 235% means 235%3 = 705% of total damage

Hence we see the only way remorseless come's out ahead is if we count for each brutal 2 remorseless(which is fair, id rather it be more like 1.75) and the DEV chance has to double. So comparing to in game situation the dev chance would need to be raised to 20% for remorseless alone to take over brutal which is impossible atm.

Now I'll be the first to admit that assuming 1 hit of remorseless = 1 hit of brutal is wrong. Usually A remorseless of dw champ hits about ~20 higher than a single 2h brutal strike so if you shave off 20% of the brutal damage I won't complain and results stay about the same.

Edit: Just noticed I took remorseless dev multiplier as 485 isntead of 435. CBF doint the math again but reduced dev mag would further prove my point.

Originally Posted by Kiddyfence

It has diminishing returns in terms of % dps increased. While a 285% crit magnitude is 50% higher than a 235% crit magnitude, it's only a 21% difference in damage between the crits. It's slightly more complicated when you're looking at crits and non-crits together but the same principle holds. Likewise, going from 0 to 3% crit and 25 to 28% crit rating will give you the same dps increase; however, since you're already at a higher dps at 25%, the increase of dps is smaller compared your original dps than if you had started at 0%. Ultimately a 2.5% difference is probably well within the uncertainty of the parses (1950 dps vs 2000 dps), so you would expect the dummy parses to be essentially the same if the raid dps was to be the same.

I personally think manual swapping is the most "accurate" way of playing. Swapping has the same finishers as a 2h build, but builds pips faster while doing more damage. It also builds pips faster and/or does more damage than a dw build while having the 2h finishers.

Oh, sure, there are natural diminishing returns of scale, the same as we see with the diminishing returns of scale on physical mastery. But the effect is nowhere near as pronounced as the actual hard-coded diminishing returns on, say, crit rating as it converts to crit %.

Within the uncertainty? Yeah, probably. Even so, I don't doubt Vodomir's abilities and I remember him hitting 1700/1800 dps (I could be wrong, correct me if so) on a dummy while 2h champs have posted numbers higher than 2k (I think I need a 1st age, a clasp neck and slightly more glass cannon jewels/relics if I'm going to break the 1500 dps barrier myself). Yet, whenever I see numbers thrown around/posted for Acid/F&F zergs, the DW champs and 2H champs always seem to be in the same neighborhood. So, while maybe not the biggest reason for this apparent narrowing of the DPS gap in real life raid situations vs. dummy parses for the two playstyles, I maintain that it likely does contribute a measurable amount. Could be that the Blood-Lust crits are a bigger factor.

Originally Posted by Shintagh

Wrong again. Overcapping DEV chance is more beneficial for remorseless and I already explained why in the current soft cap on dev chance it doesn't make any difference.

If you're interested in percentages here are some for you.

Remorseless crit multiplier = 285% means total damage on crit = 285% of normal damage
Brutal crit multiplier = 235% for 3 hits means 235%*3 = 705% increase of total damage

Now lets look at dev

Remorseless dev multiplier = 485% means total damage on crit = 485% of normal damage
Brutal dev multiplier = 235% means 235%3 = 705% of total damage

Remorseless still clearly behind but here is when remorseless will get ahead of brutal. Because of faster attack speed and better pip builders we say when a 2h champs gets 1 brutal off the dw champ gets 2 remorselesses off. Let's look at the percentages again.

Remorseless crit multiplier = 285% means total damage on crit = 285% of normal damage + if the 2nd hit doesn't crit we get 385% of normal damage but if it does crit we get 570% of normal damage.
Brutal crit multiplier = 235% for 3 hits means 235%*3 = 705% increase of total damage

Clearly we see that even after DOUBLING the crit chance and hit of remorseless it's still behind.

Now lets look at dev

Remorseless dev multiplier = 485% means total damage on crit = 485% of normal damage + if the 2nd hit doesnt crit we get 585% of normal damage but if it does crit we get 970% of normal damage.
Brutal dev multiplier = 235% means 235%3 = 705% of total damage

Hence we see the only way remorseless come's out ahead is if we count for each brutal 2 remorseless(which is fair, id rather it be more like 1.75) and the DEV chance has to double. So comparing to in game situation the dev chance would need to be raised to 20% for remorseless alone to take over brutal which is impossible atm.

Now I'll be the first to admit that assuming 1 hit of remorseless = 1 hit of brutal is wrong. Usually A remorseless of dw champ hits about ~20 higher than a single 2h brutal strike so if you shave off 20% of the brutal damage I won't complain and results stay about the same.

Uhhh...sorry. None of your math makes any sense there.

Also, you're STILL missing the point completely.

Originally Posted by Gylve

Yet, whenever I see numbers thrown around/posted for Acid/F&F zergs, the DW champs and 2H champs always seem to be in the same neighborhood.

I have gone through pretty much every recent DPS parse screenshots posted on this forum, and I just don't see persuasive proof of this, given the small sample we have.

Also, even if screenshots do indeed back your argument, there are two problems here: 1) raid DPS has way too many variables (the number of raid buffs/de-buffs, the ability for the tank to hold aggro, etc.) to come up with conclusions of this nature; and 2) even if the variables were to be somehow to be "equalized," it would be difficult to obtain enough samples to come up with such a conclusion (that is, you can bang a dummy for scores of parses in a single log in; you can only do a particular raid once a week).

Well, I never claimed to have proof, and the sample size issue and varying...variables issue will always prevent there from ever being conclusive proof one way or the other. I'm just claiming that, even if the small amount of evidence we have seems to indicate that 2H has more DPS potential on a dummy, the way raid buff/debuff situations affect the DW rotation more favorably than a 2H rotation might make up for some of the difference.

Of course, I'd still say that comfort with the play style trumps everything else in terms of DPS potential. Just trying to reinforce the "pick what you like" response to the "2h vs. DW" question that pops up every other day.

Originally Posted by Gylve

Uhhh...sorry. None of your math makes any sense there.

Also, you're STILL missing the point completely.

Which part and why? Honestly all you've done in your last few posts is repeat yourself without any proof or argument. Point out the mistake in my math please though, I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

None of your math is wrong, it's just not at all relevant to the point I was making (though I will point out that even at 25% crit 10% dev, you only have about a 4.3% chance of all three hits from brutal critting or devastating). I don't care about how much damage Brutal does vs. Remorseless. All I'm trying to say (ad nauseum apparently) is that high-crit chance environments do more for Remorseless than they do for Brutal.

Here's a list of things I'm NOT saying, if this makes it easier:

1) 2h users should use Remorseless (not counting Imp. Seeking Blades -> Remorseless) as their strike of choice in these environments. I'm not saying this because I seriously doubt that a Remorseless-centric rotation is going to out-DPS a Brutal+Clobber rotation for a 2H champ even in these high-crit environments.

2) DW Remorseless does MORE damage than 2H Brutal+Clobber in these high crit environments. I'm not saying this because there's just about zero evidence that it does.

Originally Posted by Gylve

None of your math is wrong, it's just not at all relevant to the point I was making (though I will point out that even at 25% crit 10% dev, you only have about a 4.3% chance of all three hits from brutal critting or devastating). I don't care about how much damage Brutal does vs. Remorseless. All I'm trying to say (ad nauseum apparently) is that high-crit chance environments do more for Remorseless than they do for Brutal.

Here's a list of things I'm NOT saying, if this makes it easier:

1) 2h users should use Remorseless (not counting Imp. Seeking Blades -> Remorseless) as their strike of choice in these environments. I'm not saying this because I seriously doubt that a Remorseless-centric rotation is going to out-DPS a Brutal+Clobber rotation for a 2H champ even in these high-crit environments.

2) DW Remorseless does MORE damage than 2H Brutal+Clobber in these high crit environments. I'm not saying this because there's just about zero evidence that it does.

High crit favours Remorseless:

With BS the average extra damage you will do due to crits or devs at 5% crit is 16% per activation of BS.
For Remorseless you will do 17% more damage per activation at 5% crit.

At 25% crit you will do on average 60% more damage per activation of BS than you would if you had 0 crit chance.
At 25% crit you will do on average 89% more damage per activation of Remorseless than you would if you have 0 crit chance.

At 45% it is 111% damage increase to BS and 160% damage increase to Remorseless.

So 2H BS needs to have much higher base damage than DW to make up for this difference.

I thought with expansion comming out in the near future we could throw some pics out of our best DPS on bosses and what not here is my first Acid challenge win and my best DPS on that fight. This is with out blade brother and I forgot to use my clicky for great river but still a pretty solid parse.

Originally Posted by Wilantuk

I thought with expansion comming out in the near future we could throw some pics out of our best DPS on bosses and what not here is my first Acid challenge win and my best DPS on that fight. This is with out blade brother and I forgot to use my clicky for great river but still a pretty solid parse.

Never did Iorweth the zerg way, we regularly go with only 1 Burg and I go around 2.7k - 2.8k DPS up to the first Add Spawn with only 1 Burg and no Oathies up to that point (we use both oathbreakers right after the first acid rise to finish the fight after the acid. Here's some screens:





EDIT: I could probably go 2.8k - 2.9k now, cause I just recently learned that you can stack the controlled burn buff (for another 5% dmg bonus and another -5% attack duration) by activating CB before pulling the fight (which I already do) and then using it again directly after the fight has been pulled and all of your CDs reset (that's what I didn't do, as I used to spare my second CB for after the acid rise). Acquiring 2 more pieces of the Threkappi Set would allow me to add another 14% dmg bonus, so 3k DPS with ony one burg and no oathies does not seem to be out of reach. EDIT END


On Saruman I can do around 4k up to 4.4k DPS in the first 2 phases (starting out at over 8k DPS and then declining with every killed clone, as each dead clone means one less target):



7.3k DPS shortly after the first clone went down (35 Seconds into the fight)



4.3k DPS after all clones are down (after 2:22; see results posted in kin chat)

Another fight going 5.2k DPS after 1:19



Finishing that phase with slightly above 4k DPS (see kin chat; also notice 2.3k combined DPS over phases 3-5 five, incl. all of Saruman's gibberish, the end sequence and the teleport to the chests, as that's where you get out of combat first)

I can do somewhere around 2.3k - 2.4k overall DPS from the beginning of phase 3 until standing at the chests (CA first stops to parse there, as you only get out of combat after porting to the chests)



And this is my DPS after our first F&F T2CM kill:



Not overly overwhelming, but I had to throttle my DPS throughout the fight not to grab aggro (still grabbed aggro on the second giant, but saved the situation by using a bubble an standing next to the tank until he regained aggro) and after the second giant was down, we all took some time cheering into Teamspeak, before we realized that we had to kill the remaining shadow grims to get out of combat; I was just standing around like forever without hitting anything, so my DPS obviously took a nose dive there (the second giant was dead around 2:27, the parse ends at 3:16 ... that's a whole lot of time not hitting anything)

That's some awesome DPS on Saruman. That's with popping all of your stuff like CBR, CB, LG clicky and getting fire ring buff at the start of the phase? The most I've hit in there is about 4k DPS, but only recently have I been doing it the AoE method and even then we always keep the Lightning clone away from the group plus I haven't been on one where I received the fire ring buff (usually goes to a hunter to drop venom clone quickly after shadow goes down).

Originally Posted by Gylve

That's some awesome DPS on Saruman. That's with popping all of your stuff like CBR, CB, LG clicky and getting fire ring buff at the start of the phase? The most I've hit in there is about 4k DPS, but only recently have I been doing it the AoE method and even then we always keep the Lightning clone away from the group plus I haven't been on one where I received the fire ring buff (usually goes to a hunter to drop venom clone quickly after shadow goes down).

I don't use the LG clicky, as I don't run the full set (I prefer the crit from the Exmeplar's bauble) and as for the fire buff, sometimes I'll get and other times I won't get it, as people sometimes forget to click that stupid little button ^^

Edit:
CB depends on availability (it will be on CD every now and then) and CBR is toggled, if things get messy and the healers need to catch up.

Btw. does any of the better 2H and/or macro swapping Champs care to comment on my numbers? Back in the early days of this thread I was called "stubborn dual wield champ" or "1H Fanboy" and told that by choosing a DW setup I would easily sacrifice 200-300 DPS. So are 2H Champs really easily destroying my numbers?

Comparing my numbers from Iorweth to the best burst DPS screen with only one burglar (this one: http://www.pic-upload.de/view-134963...n_dps.jpg.html), that I could find in the forums (from one of the best macro-swapping Champs there is), I'd say assumptions such as "2H does more dmg" or "macroswapping is the way to go" don't seem to hold ground. Of course one could say that Mori had to throw a defensive skill every now an then, but then again, he stacked improved controlled burn twice (whereas I only had one unimproved CB buff going for me), used his Limlight Clicky (which I didn't) and their group will most likely have used both oathies on the first giant (which dramatically skews DPS in such a short duration parse). At least the way I see it, numbers seem to be more than comparable.

Can anyone of the better 2H/macro-swapping Champs approve or dis-approve whether they outdps my numbers or not?

Originally Posted by Vodomir

Btw. does any of the better 2H and/or macro swapping Champs care to comment on my numbers? Back in the early days of this thread I was called "stubborn dual wield champ" or "1H Fanboy" and told that by choosing a DW setup I would easily sacrifice 200-300 DPS. So are 2H Champs really easily destroying my numbers?

Comparing my numbers from Iorweth to the best burst DPS screen with only one burglar (this one: http://www.pic-upload.de/view-134963...n_dps.jpg.html), that I could find in the forums (from one of the best macro-swapping Champs there is), I'd say assumptions such as "2H does more dmg" or "macroswapping is the way to go" don't seem to hold ground. Of course one could say that Mori had to throw a defensive skill every now an then, but then again, he stacked improved controlled burn twice (whereas I only had one unimproved CB buff going for me), used his Limlight Clicky (which I didn't) and their group will most likely have used both oathies on the first giant (which dramatically skews DPS in such a short duration parse). At least the way I see it, numbers seem to be more than comparable.

Can anyone of the better 2H/macro-swapping Champs approve or dis-approve whether they outdps my numbers or not?

You know that there are way too many variables in raid DPS to make the kind of comparison you seek to make.

Originally Posted by Miretocot

You know that there are way too many variables in raid DPS to make the kind of comparison you seek to make.

Back in the early days of this thread, when I parsed as high as the best 2H/macro-swapping Champs on a dummy, I was told that Dummy parses don't count, as it's all about burst DPS in a raid environment and 2H/macro-swapping would take the lead there. Now I'm told the different way round. Guess 2H players just don't want to accept that Dual Wield is actually capable of performing on the very same level.