Most who are hitting very high numbers (1600-1900) are dual wielders, mainly because we can get such high crit chances with all our amazing crit mag bonuses that remorseless's crits are amazing. I'd be interested to see more parses for 5-8 minute sustained with dual wield champs. They have to build for high icpr and probably second wind.
No need to trait improved second wind if your ICPR is high enough. I run like 3100+ ICPR and don't trait ISW at all.
According to LI Planner, I could max the 4 dps legacies and get 77 seconds off of Sudden Defense Cooldown.
Edit: On my current weapon, I have AoE Damage, Remorseless Strike Damage, Crit Multiplier, and Sudden Defense CD maxed. I had only enough points left to add 1 rank to 2 stat legacies.
My 2A 1h has Remorseless, Crit Multi, WA damage and AoE damage all maxed, -12 secs Battle Frenzy CD and I believe -63 secs SD CD. I believe I looked at a 1A in LiP the other day and you can max the four majors, max SD CD and have something like -8 BF CD. I'd probably go with that since points in SD CD result in bigger reductions to the CD, and the way I have my points spent right now I do find myself wanting SD sooner, but that's rarely the case with BF (I usually only use BF once a pull).
Most certainly, but even with 2 champs ebbing I could pull aggro if I didn't wait 10s to start dps'ing. Like I said though, maybe this week (if everyone isnt out for easter), our gaurd got a first age belt so that might help. Or I might try the sw and then have an rk spam the guard technique.
Btw, those numbers I posted are without the new jewellry sets, just havent gotten around to grinding them yet lol, so higher numbers are def possible with that clicky for sure.
-Findaratos mini ~ Shock and Awe
-Fingolfinfelagund champ ~ Professional Awesome
in preparation for acid t2 challenge non pansy mode (aka no jumping in orc excrement), I am trying to get my dps up a bit.
Currently, without any buffs or cb, i can sustain 1300-1400 dps on dummy.
I have a second age 2h, with wild, brutal, crit, and aoe majors, and battle frenzy & might for minors.
I have 6.5k crit (around 17.5%), 25k melee offense(around 110%), both -2.5% runes, a bit over 6k morale, 4.5k finesse.
traited all reds except swift trait for pip,
I dont macro swap, and swift -> wild -> brutal -> clobber -> swift etc
I seeking->remorseless whenever it's up, and rend if I have extra pips while brutal is on cd.
Should i build my crit more? physical mastery? Should i drop a red trait and replace with battle frenzy?
That hobbit you just called fat? He's skipping 2nd breakfast.
The dwarf woman you called ugly? She spends hours braiding her beard so you can differentiate her from a dwarf man.
The Uruk-Hai you just killed? he's been abused by Saruman.
See that Gollum creature with the gangly limb and large eyes? For 500 years the ring poisoned his mind.
That elf you just made fun of for crying? She just lost her wizard friend to a Balrog.
Put this as your signature if you're against bullying in Middle-earth!
Most certainly, but even with 2 champs ebbing I could pull aggro if I didn't wait 10s to start dps'ing.
Nah! Don't wait for start with dps. Let the guard start with traited Challenge, a second before forced aggro expire just use Engage and he will be ~28% aggro ahead your best dps. Then just ebbing. If needed he can use Challenge the darkness to be sure he is still ahead and will be again ~28% ahead of you best dps. After 1 Minute 13 he can use engage again which put him again ~28% before you best dps. That should be enough for the rest of the fight. If not just ebb again.
Just use what the devs give you.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
Hunter - Champion - Guardian * [DE]Morthond * Krieger des Lichts
Nah! Don't wait for start with dps. Let the guard start with traited Challenge, a second before forced aggro expire just use Engage and he will be ~28% aggro ahead your best dps. Then just ebbing. If needed he can use Challenge the darkness to be sure he is still ahead and will be again ~28% ahead of you best dps. After 1 Minute 13 he can use engage again which put him again ~28% before you best dps. That should be enough for the rest of the fight. If not just ebb again.
Just use what the devs give you.
Thats what I keep saying, please tell my guards this.
I'm tired of un-equipping my offhand to give the tank a chance
Last edited by swordmonkey; Apr 06 2012 at 11:55 PM.
-Findaratos mini ~ Shock and Awe
-Fingolfinfelagund champ ~ Professional Awesome
Thats what I keep saying, please tell my guards this.
I'm tired of un-equipping my offhand to give the tank a chance
oh thats bad, ignorant tanks. He should try one time we go all out at iorweth/bukot/fire and frost all time long and only pull aggro when something goes really wrong.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
Hunter - Champion - Guardian * [DE]Morthond * Krieger des Lichts
I don't quite understand why someone would gauge their dps on a dummy. Burgtards from my kin almost always beat me in 1 minute dps parses on dummies. But raiding is where it really counts. The best burg in my kin is usually 1k dps behind me on bosses.
Aggro shouldn't be an issue with how many skills other classes have that give the tank a better chance of aggro. I go all out in acid without even waiting for the tank to get aggro. And he always easily holds over my near 4k opening dps.(first minute)
I don't quite understand why someone would gauge their dps on a dummy. Burgtards from my kin almost always beat me in 1 minute dps parses on dummies. But raiding is where it really counts. The best burg in my kin is usually 1k dps behind me on bosses.
Aggro shouldn't be an issue with how many skills other classes have that give the tank a better chance of aggro. I go all out in acid without even waiting for the tank to get aggro. And he always easily holds over my near 4k opening dps.(first minute)
you should mention your raid has 4+ burgs... which is 4x provoke
the 1st minute, however, isnt the problem anyways...
taunt ftw...
I don't quite understand why someone would gauge their dps on a dummy. Burgtards from my kin almost always beat me in 1 minute dps parses on dummies. But raiding is where it really counts. The best burg in my kin is usually 1k dps behind me on bosses.
Agreed that in the raid is where it counts, but the lab experiment isn't useless. It's a nice way to find out how various tweaks to our builds affect our damage output without wasting everyone's time.
It's the same reason NFL teams measure prospective players' sprint speeds. It doesn't tell everything, but it shows you something.
If you can't hit adequate dps on a dummy (whatever it be), then you might need to work a little more to hit adequate dps in a raid.
Last edited by dietlbomb; May 01 2012 at 11:03 PM.
I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. ~ Faramir
I don't quite understand why someone would gauge their dps on a dummy. Burgtards from my kin almost always beat me in 1 minute dps parses on dummies. But raiding is where it really counts. The best burg in my kin is usually 1k dps behind me on bosses.
Comparing Solo DPS vs. Single Target DPS is not always the same thing. The Burg might be comparable to a Champ in terms of Solo DPS, when he is all on his own (at least on a dummy, as the dummy doesn't face him, when he's got aggro; a real world mob won't turn his back to the burg all the time), but that doesn't mean that his Single Target DPS is the same in a group/raid. When solo, a burg has Reveal Weakness and Counter-Defence running for him, a Champ doesn't have that solo. But place the Burg and the Champ in the same group/raid and the Champ will also benefit from the burgs debuffs, thus increasing the Champ's DPS, while the Burg's DPS is not improved over his solo figures.
I'd say if you parse above 1700 on dummies for a minute you're ready for T2 orthanc, but that may just be me, being in a kin with some extremely good champions..
if you have to hit provoke you loose dmg because of the delay - if you're to fast as a burg - you have critchain on CD all time and couldn't use it...
If I am running 1800 DPS on a dummy, I am pretty sure my rotation is proper. But I am not here to argue the burg mechanics. I am here to work on my champ.
I know a lot of champs who run a glass cannon build, it kinda make me sad... seeing a champ in the 5k morale range makes me cry tears that would make a llama look like Jack Nicholson.
Is this the way it has to be now? Glass cannon to hit the hardest possible hit... Is this really the best way? I know we are a DPS class but do we have to build our toon for all-out might/agil or is there a good balance for champs somehow?
If I am running 1800 DPS on a dummy, I am pretty sure my rotation is proper. But I am not here to argue the burg mechanics. I am here to work on my champ.
I know a lot of champs who run a glass cannon build, it kinda make me sad... seeing a champ in the 5k morale range makes me cry tears that would make a llama look like Jack Nicholson.
Is this the way it has to be now? Glass cannon to hit the hardest possible hit... Is this really the best way? I know we are a DPS class but do we have to build our toon for all-out might/agil or is there a good balance for champs somehow?
Well, I think I speak for a lot of champs when I say I/we carry a lot of switchy gear in our bags. I, for instance, *always* carry 4 pieces of the old ettens set with me to get the +7% CB bonus, along with a bunch of vit/tact mit pieces. When I'm in raid/survival mode I run with 9k tact mit and maintain 25k phys mastery & 8k crit. Glass cannon build would be 29k PM/8.4k crit with only around 4k tact mit & 6k unbuffed morale. I absolutely do not believe in 'all-round' builds, when there's so much gear to use in different situations (for instance offtanking the trolls in acid t2 opposed to burning down the boss in the same fight) that I feel you're really missing out if you're not switching gear in and out constantly. I can imagine other people considering this to be too much of a fuss though, but I sure as hell am willing to overcome this little inconvenience to enhance my raids' chance of success. I'm fairly confident other serious raiding champs do the same. Anything to give our already stressed out healers an easier job!
If I am running 1800 DPS on a dummy, I am pretty sure my rotation is proper. But I am not here to argue the burg mechanics. I am here to work on my champ.
I know a lot of champs who run a glass cannon build, it kinda make me sad... seeing a champ in the 5k morale range makes me cry tears that would make a llama look like Jack Nicholson.
Is this the way it has to be now? Glass cannon to hit the hardest possible hit... Is this really the best way? I know we are a DPS class but do we have to build our toon for all-out might/agil or is there a good balance for champs somehow?
I use to believe that champs should never go glass cannon but with the revamp my opinion changed and that is because of 1 skill - Sudden Defence. You can go as much glass cannon as you like but with the call of the wild trait and maxed legacy I can hit sudden defense every 20-30sec depending on attack duration reduction buffs. Do you know how unkillable that makes you? If you're smart you should almost never die and you have the 2nd bubble as a back up and adamant and dire need on top of them. Hell some times I just hit sudden defense even when I'm at full morale so the healers can chill, that's how amazing this skill is. You can even trade deep strikes/vigour for the dire need cd trait, giving you like 4 panic buttons and by the time you go through them sudden defense will have recharged and when you're done with that your other panic buttons are almost off cd. Most of the fights are dps races which means you just have to survive long enough not very long. They only get dirty on some spots and champs imo are the best class atm for getting through sticky situations behind guards. My champ is still in progress, but even now he does ~2k dps on most bosses if there's a balanced group with at least 1 burg , 2 makes hitting 2k trivial even >2.5k for the 1st minute or 2.
I'm almost always the last person to die when we wipe raids.
Raid DPS is hard to compare, because it depends on so many external variables such as the number of Burglars/Captains and the aggro control capacity of the raid group (and not just the tank). For instance, I have never been involved in a Burglar stack, because we do not have that many Burglars in the kin.
As for the Galtrev parse, a question: Did you use CBR during that parse? It appears that you do not have Baingrist, since I do not see it in your UI, and your Devastate numbers were relatively low. These things could dramatically skew the results in such a short parse
Just did 2 quick parses this morning, and this is not close to my top parse I've recorded but merely an average parse (as you can see the crit rate was lower than the norm for my Crit rating 9800 unbuffed, and I was actually in Moors Traits).
The highest I've gotten on a dummy for 60-90 seconds burst is a bit over 2200. I've gotten a bit over 2400 with CBR, but I don't like parsing CBR for obvious reasons and have done very few CBR parses. But the math suggests 2500-plus should be easily reachable with CBR.
My main unbuffed DPS stats are around 2300 Might and 9800 Crit. I use a Crystal-maxed 2-hander; and my rotation is primarily Swift - Wild - Brutal - Clobber.
Last edited by Miretocot; Jul 02 2012 at 12:36 PM.
I wonder why you dislike parsing with CBR?
I'm in CBR nearly all bossfights in Orthanc currently, beside saru t2 past third phase. It only makes sense to parse your dps using the tools you use in 'real' situations, I think.
Using CBR (no baingrist, but I do have 4 pieces of the Threkappi set for a nice 12% controlled burn bonus damage) I've been able to consistently parse 2.2-2.4k dps for over a minute's duration. Stats are 28k phys mastery, 8.9k crit using a crystalled FA 2hander. Rotation's basically SS WA brutal + clobber.
Highest I've seen a champ go is ~2750 for a minute's parse. This was selfbuffed though, and using fight on! aswell.
I've been tempted more and more to trait 6 reds instead of 5, although losing the decreased AOE miss chance is a bit of a shame. Anybody know how much the miss chance reduction translates to in percentages?
Hi! It's simple: I am absent-minded, and I worry that I will forget to turn it off and end up dead--it's happened in a raid before even, and I try to be less absent-minded in raids
Originally Posted by Fyrexiel
Hi!
I'm in CBR nearly all bossfights in Orthanc currently, beside saru t2 past third phase. It only makes sense to parse your dps using the tools you use in 'real' situations, I think.
I don't think CBR is always useful or appropriate in "real" situations. To begin with, you need a 2nd Captain in the raid to have the Revealing Mark off-set the dot it gives, as most raids with single Captains will prefer the Telling Mark used. And for a long time, our kin used to run with only 1 Captain in the raid, since we were lacking Captains back then. Second, you want a stationary fight where you will constantly be DPS-ing something without moving around. Now in this context, I don't know if I agree with your "nearly all" boss fights in Orthanc claim. I see only 3 out of 5 encounters (60 percent) where CBR is not always desirable. You already mentioned the Saruman fight: I will also add Lightning (not stationary plus loads of splash AOE damage, and tank swapping also means doing too much DPS will create massive aggro issues) and Shadow (where Champions are not even welcomed; and when I was there as Champion instead of as Hunter, I certainly wasn't DPS-ing the boss the whole time).
Originally Posted by Fyrexiel
Highest I've seen a champ go is ~2750 for a minute's parse. This was selfbuffed though, and using fight on! aswell.
Fight on! absolutely doesn't deserve to be mentioned in the context of Champion DPS, as I've never seen a Champion Trait in a PvE raid. Do you really want me to be below 5k (buffed!) Morale to be able to DPS properly in raid?. We might as well as 11 man it
Last edited by Miretocot; Jul 02 2012 at 11:55 PM.
I don't think CBR is always useful or appropriate in "real" situations. To begin with, you need a 2nd Captain in the raid to have the Revealing Mark off-set the dot it gives, as most raids with single Captains will prefer the Telling Mark used. And for a long time, our kin used to run with only 1 Captain in the raid, since we were lacking Captains back then. Second, you want a stationary fight where you will constantly be DPS-ing something without moving around. Now in this context, I don't know if I agree with your "nearly all" boss fights in Orthanc claim. I see only 3 out of 5 encounters (60 percent) where CBR is not always desirable. You already mentioned the Saruman fight: I will also add Lightning (not stationary plus loads of splash AOE damage, and tank swapping also means doing too much DPS will create massive aggro issues) and Shadow (where Champions are not even welcomed; and when I was there as Champion instead of as Hunter, I certainly wasn't DPS-ing the boss the whole time).
I don't know about you strategy in Lightning, but we do not pull the boss around (so it is stationary) and I usually run CBR in there all the time. The same goes for Shadow, I rarely switch CBR off, only if I'm on Uruk Duty at 65% and only if the Captain forgets to put up Revealing Mark on my focus target. That only leaves Saruman where you actually can run CBR for a long time (T1: I run CBR from start to end; T2: I'll turn it off when things get messy)
Fight on! absolutely doesn't deserve to be mentioned in the context of Champion DPS, as I've never seen a Champion Trait in a PvE raid.
Why not? Acid t2c zerg fight is usually around 90-120seconds long and with the hotswap rune you can have fight on for 60seconds. I don't see why you would deny yourself the free +25% dmg....Same goes for lightning t2c when you go into burst mode for the last 300k. After a storm come hit blood rage once should definitely put you below 60%, hit fight on + bubble and you're ready to kill stuff 25% faster for the next min.
Why not? Acid t2c zerg fight is usually around 90-120seconds long and with the hotswap rune you can have fight on for 60seconds. I don't see why you would deny yourself the free +25% dmg....Same goes for lightning t2c when you go into burst mode for the last 300k. After a storm come hit blood rage once should definitely put you below 60%, hit fight on + bubble and you're ready to kill stuff 25% faster for the next min.
Not everyone does Acid T2C the burg ... umm, the zerg way. And for Lightning I prefer Raging Blades for the trash - I don't waste a couple of minutes for retraiting (you have to wait for the leave instance bar to complete, then go through the loading screen, then go search for the next bard, re-trait and then enter the instance and run all the way to the boss again), just to save a total grand of a few seconds in the bossfight. You lose far more time for retraiting then you actually win with using Fight On! Not remotely worth the hassle (unless it's an epeen thing to show off moar DPS in Combat Analysis).
Not everyone does Acid T2C the burg ... umm, the zerg way. And for Lightning I prefer Raging Blades for the trash - I don't waste a couple of minutes for retraiting (you have to wait for the leave instance bar to complete, then go through the loading screen, then go search for the next bard, re-trait and then enter the instance and run all the way to the boss again), just to save a total grand of a few seconds in the bossfight. You lose far more time for retraiting then you actually win with using Fight On! Not remotely worth the hassle (unless it's an epeen thing to show off moar DPS in Combat Analysis).
Then it's just a matter of strategy. I never use a single AoE attack in lightning trash because we have warden in group with 2 healers spamming aggression for diggers while we burst everything else and move healer right before cave in, nice n clean and yes not everyone does acid the zerg way but you claimed there is NO role for fight on in pve and i just showed you a couple. If you had said there was no room for fight on for YOUR champ I've wouldn't have said a word. I find it very useful in extreme burst situations.
Then it's just a matter of strategy. I never use a single AoE attack in lightning trash because we have warden in group with 2 healers spamming aggression for diggers while we burst everything else and move healer right before cave in, nice n clean
No matter the strategy, using Raging Blades in there will still clear the Trash faster (that also goes for Acid and all other wings, that's why Raging Blades is definitely a set legendary in there for me), just because Raging hits harder than any other AoE and it re-applies Battle Acuity. So running Fight on over Raging Blades will still cost your raid time in the grand picture.
Originally Posted by Shintagh
not everyone does acid the zerg way but you claimed there is NO role for fight on in pve and i just showed you a couple. If you had said there was no room for fight on for YOUR champ I've wouldn't have said a word. I find it very useful in extreme burst situations.
I suggest looking at the posts again, it wasn't me claiming there was no role for fight on But I'd still say that Fight on has too much of a situational use and that other legendary traits are far more useful in 95% of the contet. Saving a few seconds in the boss fight doesn't make up for losing time on the trash and especially not for retraiting after the trash (unless you raid regularly goes afk a couple of mins after clearing the trash).
No matter the strategy, using Raging Blades in there will still clear the Trash faster (that also goes for Acid and all other wings, that's why Raging Blades is definitely a set legendary in there for me), just because Raging hits harder than any other AoE and it re-applies Battle Acuity. So running Fight on over Raging Blades will still cost your raid time in the grand picture.
I suggest looking at the posts again, it wasn't me claiming there was no role for fight on But I'd still say that Fight on has too much of a situational use and that other legendary traits are far more useful in 95% of the contet. Saving a few seconds in the boss fight doesn't make up for losing time on the trash and especially not for retraiting after the trash (unless you raid regularly goes afk a couple of mins after clearing the trash).
Oh absolute epic brain fart it was Miretocot who said that stuff my bad on that. I agree that fight on is far more situational than raging blades but I can find use for it if you can't that's just too bad. For acid trash you're right that raging blades is very useful but on the boss it's kind of hard to use it if you're ccing stuff and even then solo champ aoe dps sucks, you need 2-3 champs to make a proper blending machine doing it non-zerg way. It has absolutely no use if you're zerging. Like you said it's a situational skill and no matter what you say it is better than having raging blades on the acid/lightning boss, now how important it is to the success of the raid is debatable because a number of factors come into play. I wouldn't mind fight on getting some love, i do believe its much overdue.
Btw its more than saving a few seconds, +25% dmg for a min is pretty huge, when you wipe with that 20-30k left on the boss you will wonder what if.... 125k dmg vs 100k dmg.
Oh absolute epic brain fart it was Miretocot who said that stuff my bad on that. I agree that fight on is far more situational than raging blades but I can find use for it if you can't that's just too bad. For acid trash you're right that raging blades is very useful but on the boss it's kind of hard to use it if you're ccing stuff and even then solo champ aoe dps sucks, you need 2-3 champs to make a proper blending machine doing it non-zerg way.
Depends on how you are blending things ... we don't cc any of the mobs in Acid T2 non-zerg and even one Champ can dish out a shootload of AoE DPS. e.g. in Saruman I maintained 5.5k DPS in one phase with 5 copies, until there were only 2 copies left, my DPS was still over 4k after the end of that phase - I'd say that's some pretty solid AoE DPS for only one Champ (only one Burg in that raid, so there was no horrendous RW stack on the focus target).
Originally Posted by Shintagh
Like you said it's a situational skill and no matter what you say it is better than having raging blades on the acid/lightning boss
Never argued with that. Of course Raging Blades has no use in the boss fight, but you still waste more time with either retraiting or killing the trash than you actually gain with Fight On. That's why it's not worth the hassle in my opinion.
Originally Posted by Shintagh
I wouldn't mind fight on getting some love, i do believe its much overdue.
I wouldn't mind that either :-)
Originally Posted by Shintagh
Btw its more than saving a few seconds, +25% dmg for a min is pretty huge, when you wipe with that 20-30k left on the boss you will wonder what if.... 125k dmg vs 100k dmg.
It's not more than a few seconds. Even if you were in a solo fight gaining 25% more DPS (btw. is this additive or multiplicative? additive will be far less than +25% for your overall DPS) would speed up your fight for a max of 15 seconds:
total mob morale left: 75k
regular DPS: 1.000
DPS with fight on: 1250
Now factor in that the fight will usually be ended way before Fight on expires (so you don't get the full duration, thus saving less time) and that 11 other people are not enhanced with fight on, so total raid DPS is not raised by 25% (thus saving those 15 seconds for your raid over the course of one minute) - you'll see that you don't even save your raid 5 seconds. That worth it?
So what you call huge is in fact rather miniscule for the whole raid. The raid gains more from blending the trash faster with RB.
Edit: I corrected my numbers to actually assume that solo fight lasts 60 seconds in the fight on accelerated version.
I don't know about you strategy in Lightning, but we do not pull the boss around (so it is stationary) and I usually run CBR in there all the time. The same goes for Shadow, I rarely switch CBR off, only if I'm on Uruk Duty at 65% and only if the Captain forgets to put up Revealing Mark on my focus target. That only leaves Saruman where you actually can run CBR for a long time (T1: I run CBR from start to end; T2: I'll turn it off when things get messy)
Ok, different strategy then. We do move a lot in Lightning; and I am on add duty a lot in Shadow if I am there as a Champion. Also, are you tank swapping in Lightning? You didn't address the aggro issue in a tank swap situation.
Originally Posted by Shintagh
Why not? Acid t2c zerg fight is usually around 90-120seconds long and with the hotswap rune you can have fight on for 60seconds. I don't see why you would deny yourself the free +25% dmg....Same goes for lightning t2c when you go into burst mode for the last 300k. After a storm come hit blood rage once should definitely put you below 60%, hit fight on + bubble and you're ready to kill stuff 25% faster for the next min.
We've never done Acid Burglar stack, since we have not had enough Burglars.
And I've never found Fight On! worth Traiting over other Legendary Traits in a raid. I suppose you could swap Traits between trash and boss, but 1) I find the time spent doing so a waste unless a fight cannot be done without swapping Traits; and 2) I usually buy consumables or buy the mats for consumables instead of farming, and hence I am always too poor. (I rarely have more than 3g on a given toon.)
Originally Posted by Vodomir
Not everyone does Acid T2C the burg ... umm, the zerg way. And for Lightning I prefer Raging Blades for the trash - I don't waste a couple of minutes for retraiting (you have to wait for the leave instance bar to complete, then go through the loading screen, then go search for the next bard, re-trait and then enter the instance and run all the way to the boss again), just to save a total grand of a few seconds in the bossfight. You lose far more time for retraiting then you actually win with using Fight On! Not remotely worth the hassle (unless it's an epeen thing to show off moar DPS in Combat Analysis).
Yes, basically this.
Originally Posted by Vodomir
I suggest looking at the posts again, it wasn't me claiming there was no role for fight on
Originally Posted by Shintagh
Oh absolute epic brain fart it was Miretocot who said that stuff my bad on that. I agree that fight on is far more situational than raging blades but I can find use for it if you can't that's just too bad.
Both of you are mis-representing what I said. I did not say that Fight On! was never applicable in PvE.
Instead, I said that using DPS numbers you get by piling Fight On! to determine Champion DPS is inappropriate (as we all agree that it is extremely situational).
I'd be the first person to acknowledge a fair criticism but please don't chase straw men.
Ok, different strategy then. We do move a lot in Lightning; and I am on add duty a lot in Shadow if I am there as a Champion. Also, are you tank swapping in Lightning? You didn't address the aggro issue in a tank swap situation.
We also go with two tanks and after positioning Kalbak, our tank (obviously in Threat stance) starts of with Challenge ... everyone goes ape-crazy on DPS (incl. fervour potions, focus pots, cooldowns like Hot Burn etc.). Just before Challenge expires, he copies threat via Engage, so he now has a solid lead over the top DPSer by that time. A while later our Champs ebb onto him to further increase his threat. When it's time to swap, the second tank can just do the same thing. Then just challenge and copy everytime Engage comes off CD. You always have Challenge the Darkness as a backup threat copy. We usually only need 1 swap and sometimes (when the tank gets lucky with b/p/e; and we DPS Kalbak fast enough, so the debuff on the tank doesn't increase that fast anymore) we don't need to swap at all. Even if a happen to grab aggro (which still happens from time to time), I am fast at hitting True Heroics and running through the Boss, so he doesn't whack the group.
I'd consider using fight on if it didn't have a morale requirement. The healers in my raids are pretty good, and tend to top me up pretty quick, if I happen to get hit... I could ask them not to, just for the purpose of using Fight On, but why bother?
I mean the option is hitting blood rage 4-5 times to get your health low enough to actually use Fight On, or waiting for an aoe hit to get you low enough.. It's kind of silly.
I agree with Vodomir re: CBR. I've been using it extensively in Orthanc: for trash and every boss. Lightning is, oddly enough, the boss I've used it the least on (I've only done one Lightning run since we stopped moving Kalbak around), but I've happily kept it on for all of F&F, Acid (non-zerg), Shadow, and Saruman up through somewhere in phase 3.
As for Fight On!, I did use it vs. Ivar, but I haven't found a spot for it in Orthanc yet. Luckily the AoE damage of Ivar usually meant that I never had to ask my healers to not heal me.
Regarding DPS as a whole, I don't really have anything else to add other than a question: has anyone quantified the extra DPS %-wise that Improved Rend provides (both at its base level and with the legacy maxed)? I know I've seen numbers tossed around before, but I don't really recall them.
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Here's a much better parse--highest I've gotten. It reads 2174 but it was actually over 2300 when I stopped attacking, and there was a lag of about 5 seconds from then on to when CombatAnalysis stopped.
The main difference between this parse and the 2k parse I posted a while ago is what one poster called "Crit luck" earlier in this thread. My normal chance is 22.1 percent Crit and 14 percent Dev (including 5 percent for the Baingrist). In the 2k parse, I was at 17.2 Crit and 9.8 Dev, so it was way below the norm; here it was 24.6 Crit and 16.9 Dev, so slightly higher than the norm. With better Crit/Dev luck, I think approaching 2500 is not inconceivable with my current stats and rotation, when I have had a 45-second Orthanc fight where I was around 45 percent Crit and 25 percent Dev (sure, 2 Burglars but still 30 and 20 shouldn't be "impossible" even without Burglar help).
Gear, stats, and LI weapon set-up, if you are interested:
I agree with Vodomir re: CBR. I've been using it extensively in Orthanc: for trash and every boss. Lightning is, oddly enough, the boss I've used it the least on (I've only done one Lightning run since we stopped moving Kalbak around), but I've happily kept it on for all of F&F, Acid (non-zerg), Shadow, and Saruman up through somewhere in phase 3.
As for Fight On!, I did use it vs. Ivar, but I haven't found a spot for it in Orthanc yet. Luckily the AoE damage of Ivar usually meant that I never had to ask my healers to not heal me.
Regarding DPS as a whole, I don't really have anything else to add other than a question: has anyone quantified the extra DPS %-wise that Improved Rend provides (both at its base level and with the legacy maxed)? I know I've seen numbers tossed around before, but I don't really recall them.
From the tests I have run my 859 point Rend gives about 8.5% increase on the Galtrev dummies, while it gives about 5.5% on the heavy dummies in Glan Vraig. Since those heavy dummies have substanially more armor than even raid bosses you will generally get closer to the 8.5% than the 5.5% against real mobs.
Here's a much better parse--highest I've gotten. It reads 2174 but it was actually over 2300 when I stopped attacking, and there was a lag of about 5 seconds from then on to when CombatAnalysis stopped.
The main difference between this parse and the 2k parse I posted a while ago is what one poster called "Crit luck" earlier in this thread. My normal chance is 22.1 percent Crit and 14 percent Dev (including 5 percent for the Baingrist). In the 2k parse, I was at 17.2 Crit and 9.8 Dev, so it was way below the norm; here it was 24.6 Crit and 16.9 Dev, so slightly higher than the norm. With better Crit/Dev luck, I think approaching 2500 is not inconceivable with my current stats and rotation, when I have had a 45-second Orthanc fight where I was around 45 percent Crit and 25 percent Dev (sure, 2 Burglars but still 30 and 20 shouldn't be "impossible" even without Burglar help).
Gear, stats, and LI weapon set-up, if you are interested:
You go 118 attacks off there and I saw you weren't using the -att duration runes. I can get 118 only with those runes, wonder what I'm missing. I'd love to get +1k pm and make 118 attacks in a min.
You go 118 attacks off there and I saw you weren't using the -att duration runes. I can get 118 only with those runes, wonder what I'm missing. I'd love to get +1k pm and make 118 attacks in a min.
Yeah, I noticed that as well from recent parses, and I was puzzled too. But now I am pretty sure it's the extra bleeds from Deep Strikes, because I have been going PvP a lot, and I only Trait it for PvP. (I am a PvP newb so I am not sure I am doing the right thing, but I get rid of At the Ready and Blood Lust and get Deep Strikes and Athletic when I PvP). Otherwise I see no other explanations.
Also, I am going to swap the Physical Mastery Runes out for -Attack Duration ones and compare, and see if the -Attack Duration ones boost your DPS as much as some here have claimed they do (I think folks here calculated slightly over 5 percent for equipping it on both LIs?!). I've always been a skeptic and frankly never had enough of a Shards reserve to get those on both of my LIs AND switch it back if I don't like it. But now I probably can afford to do so.
As for my 1k extra Physical Mastery, isn't that entirely explained by the fact that you use -Attack Duration Runes? 29k shouldn't be difficult to achieve if you don't use -Attack Duration Runes; and dual wielders can get higher, though I am a firm believer that DW significantly lowers your single target DPS (from many parses with 2nd Agers that I reported earlier in this thread).
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Originally Posted by mrfigglesworth
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