If you are just interested in seeing what it is like to battle Saruman, with no real expectation of beating it, and you have some like-minded friends or some who are willing to waste a bit of gold on repairs to give you a taste of the Saruman fight, it is entirely possible.
All you need to is to find someone with locks up to the Saruman fight who will invite you to group and let you go in with him. You go in and get the locks, fill up your raid with people willing to just go in to have a go at it and see what it is like, walk up to the Saruman room and you are good to go. There's no trash for that part of ToO. I would be very surprised if there wasn't someone with locks through Shadow who would be willing to help you out if you explain what you want, at least by the Sunday or Monday after the raid locks reset.
That won't really work for the other fights because you would have to a group that can get through the trash, but to just go mess around and see what the Saruman fight is like, it will work. Here's a preview: he talks a lot and walks very slowly. Things pick up quite a bit when he summons his clones though
But really, I would think on Landroval there must be people who bring pugs in the way Crell does. Maybe try posting on the Landroval forums?
I'm not particularly interested in raiding. I'd just like to get into Orthanc and battle Saruman a little.
So, what your saying is you would rather do a book quest that has you face Saruman? That does sound fun. Dunno how that would fit in with the lore though. While blasting through level 65-75 I do vaugly remember talking to Saruman at one point. Sure it wasn't some epic face off at the top of ToO but...you would need some backup for that right?
On my server their are several pugs and a pug ish group that have gone to Saruman t1. I am not sure about the random pugs but I do know of one of the pug ish groups that downed him. So its certainly doable. Maybe I am spoiled but about 50% of puggers on brandywine are actually able to play decently. If you have a good leader that knows to either take players that are known to be competent or to do a gear check.* Then it certainly is feasible to complete Saruman t1 in a pug.
*Gear check meaning the player has class appropriate gear. For instance, some captains seem to be unaware that might not will affects outgoing healing.
Last edited by swordmonkey; Feb 10 2012 at 04:07 PM.
-Findaratos mini ~ Shock and Awe
-Fingolfinfelagund champ ~ Professional Awesome
heres the bottom line, how many guilds will have completed t2 orthanc + challenges before the next expac comes out, prolly very very very few if any..and thats a problem...and the t1 loot is a complete joke, if u use t1 to help gear up for t2 you wouldnt make it in the front door, either a. t1 loot needs a huge upgrade or 2. get the nerf bat out
heres the bottom line, how many guilds will have completed t2 orthanc + challenges before the next expac comes out, prolly very very very few if any..and thats a problem...and the t1 loot is a complete joke, if u use t1 to help gear up for t2 you wouldnt make it in the front door, either a. t1 loot needs a huge upgrade or 2. get the nerf bat out
I'm not saying T1 loot is great, but there are plenty of pieces to take to T2. Besides, the armor is all available in T1.
heres the bottom line, how many guilds will have completed t2 orthanc + challenges before the next expac comes out, prolly very very very few if any..and thats a problem...and the t1 loot is a complete joke, if u use t1 to help gear up for t2 you wouldnt make it in the front door, either a. t1 loot needs a huge upgrade or 2. get the nerf bat out
Okay...if people don't use T1 loot then they must use crafted/skirmish/quest loot to have done T2. When kins first started beating ToO T2 bosses they didn't magically have T2 loot equipped seeing how they haven't yet completed T2 to aquire those rewards. These kins beat ToO T2 bosses with "bad" gear. I hope the raid doesn't get a nerf bat. F&F challenge and saruman could be toned down slightly but all the other bosses are fine.
In Update 7 the grims that spawn on tier 2 will be changed to be identical to the grims that spawn on t1. So, reduced health and reduced number of CC breaks. This adjustment should keep the coordination requirement high while reducing the DPS focus enough to make it a doable challenge.
More important would be to fix the buggy corruption, thats the bigest problem right now, if they do that, the fight will be perfectly possible and a good one too imo. Requires a lot of coordination, healing and damage. It's a great fight, but the buggy corruptions and the serverlags we have atm just destroy it
Blarelius, Blanadir, Dorilion, Lirania.
Kinship: Streiter der Freiheit - Raid: Legion der Freunde
I'd have to say T2 is too hard. It is one of the many factors that almost killed my kin, being unable to beat T2 after weeks of trying. Sure, some kins have it on farm but not everyone has 12 decent players, some have a few average players too and it has resulted it people just not trying any more. The shoddy loot from it doesn't help, either.
I'd say make T2 HMs easier and add better loot. Maybe we'll start to see more kills. I'm not a fan of content being unachievable for the majority.
T2 is not too hard, it provides a significant challenge that can be overcome through careful planning and teamwork. T1s are very accessible to the majority of players.
Saruman and F&F are "too hard", but you can get plenty of nice loot without even trying them.
I'd have to say T2 is too hard. It is one of the many factors that almost killed my kin, being unable to beat T2 after weeks of trying. Sure, some kins have it on farm but not everyone has 12 decent players, some have a few average players too and it has resulted it people just not trying any more. The shoddy loot from it doesn't help, either.
I'd say make T2 HMs easier and add better loot. Maybe we'll start to see more kills. I'm not a fan of content being unachievable for the majority.
Majority of players are bad-average when it comes to raiding. I'd hate to see the majority be able to beat T2. If they want to experience the content there is always the option of T1. If they want to beat the most challenging content they should learn how to play, not ask the content be made easier for them.
I'd have to say T2 is too hard. It is one of the many factors that almost killed my kin, being unable to beat T2 after weeks of trying. Sure, some kins have it on farm but not everyone has 12 decent players, some have a few average players too and it has resulted it people just not trying any more. The shoddy loot from it doesn't help, either.
I'd say make T2 HMs easier and add better loot. Maybe we'll start to see more kills. I'm not a fan of content being unachievable for the majority.
Just play T1?
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
Hunter - Champion - Guardian * [DE]Morthond * Krieger des Lichts
Saruman and F&F are "too hard", but you can get plenty of nice loot without even trying them.
Yep, all you have to do is skirmishes . On topic though, F/F t2 isn't that hard F/F hm is too hard. I like the idea of having t2 sugnificantly harder than t1, but as it is now it's just ridiculous, we're closing in on 5 months since the update and still no one has managed parts of it. As for the loot.... well, once you've done it once or twice there's nothing more to get from there so ToO fails atm both in terms of difficulty and loot
There is a problem here. It's not with the top-end raiding kins who have always cleared content. It's not with casual kins who now get to raid (on T1) when they didn't raid at all before.
There's a middle ground of kins who did successfully raid Rift, Watcher, BG and perhaps OD; not first or even weekly, but enough that they could call themselves raiders, get deeds done eventually and kit out a toon or two. For those kins Orthanc T2 is much too hard and I know of several who have given up, dispirited, and had players drift away.
The extreme difficulty of Orthanc divides kins very sharply into a tiny number able to do T2C (on my count, there are around 4 on my server) and a much larger number running T1 only. This is an absolute chasm which is unbridgeable and into which some previously successful kins have fallen.
Last edited by Tarmas_Eldar; Apr 30 2012 at 06:51 AM.
There's a middle ground of kins who did successfully raid Rift, Watcher, BG and perhaps OD; not first or even weekly, but enough that they could call themselves raiders, get deeds done eventually and kit out a toon or two. For those kins Orthanc T2 is much too hard and I know of several who have given up, dispirited, and had players drift away.
The extreme difficulty of Orthanc divides kins very sharply into a tiny number able to do T2C (on my count, there are around 4 on my server) and a much larger number running T1 only. This is an absolute chasm which is unbridgeable and into which some previously successful kins have fallen.
Those middle-group kinships could work on Lightning challenge and Fire and Frost NM. Tons of kins have done them. Lightning: zerg boss, run from the group if you have lightning. FF: zerg one boss, zerg second boss, remove coruptions. Thats all.
The difference between T1 and T2 is just that: 1) You need to have good DPS 2) You need to have a good raid leader.
But people are mostly lazy:
I have low dps? Oh dont care, we will be good.
Train at galtrev dummies? - Who needs it?
Should I read tactics about the fight? Nah, who cares we will just go there and kill it with our crazylow dps.
The day you will go there with 1) DPS classes that are capable of at least 1400 dps single target 2) CC that know how to CC 3) raid leader who know what to to you will breath through Lightning and FF.
Those middle-group kinships could work on Lightning challenge and Fire and Frost NM. Tons of kins have done them. Lightning: zerg boss, run from the group if you have lightning. FF: zerg one boss, zerg second boss, remove coruptions. Thats all.
exactly. The loot table is the same for bosses 1-3 (lightning, F&F, acid). Lightning T2c has been pugged by many servers. It's quite possible to farm 1 boss to get first ages/quality loot. They now have an edge when it comes to doing the bosses that are giving the group trouble.
There have been over 90 kins who have reported taking down lightning T2c. My kin isn't listed and neither is the 1-2 pugs that have downed it from Vilya. I'm positive other kins/pugs aren't on the list that have beaten lightning T2c. 100+ kins isn't bad. I feel if others would put in more effort they could have accomplished lightning T2. Once people start getting first ages and have done the fight successfully it only gets easier.
Last edited by timmyloo22546; Apr 30 2012 at 07:47 AM.
I'd say make T2 HMs easier and add better loot. Maybe we'll start to see more kills. I'm not a fan of content being unachievable for the majority.
That's what T1 is there for - so that the majority of the players can see the content and succedd at it, even if they are average of bad players. And T1 servers this purpose quite well. Yout get to see all of the raid. Why does everyone (even players with lacking skill) need to be able to beat all challenges? They are called challenge because that's exactly what they are supposed to be: a challenge even for the best players. Heck, with T1 the vast majority of the players even gets to wear the teal raid armor, something that wasn't available back in the days with Ost Dunhoth. What's the point of making T2 challenge modes so easy, that they can be beaten by the majority?
There is a problem here. It's not with the top-end raiding kins who have always cleared content. It's not with casual kins who now get to raid (on T1) when they didn't raid at all before.
There's a middle ground of kins who did successfully raid Rift, Watcher, BG and perhaps OD; not first or even weekly, but enough that they could call themselves raiders, get deeds done eventually and kit out a toon or two. For those kins Orthanc T2 is much too hard and I know of several who have given up, dispirited, and had players drift away.
The extreme difficulty of Orthanc divides kins very sharply into a tiny number able to do T2C (on my count, there are around 4 on my server) and a much larger number running T1 only. This is an absolute chasm which is unbridgeable and into which some previously successful kins have fallen.
I don't really think that your assessment of the situation is a 100% correct. You can't honestly tell me, that kins, who have successfully beaten all challenges in OD on level cap, now struggle to even beat the easier T2 wings in Othanc? I'd wager that Fear Challenge, Ivar Challenge and Gortheron Challenge have all been a lot harder than lets say Lightning Challenge or Fire and Frost T2. Kins that have only done Disease T2 in OD will probably struggle with Orthanc T2, but then again ... you can't really consider them to be raiders based on having beaten Disease T2, can you?
Edit: And kitting out a toon or even two is now easier than ever. You don't need to run a single wing T2 to obtain the raid set. And the teal drops from T2 are not that good, that any class would actually need them to consider their toon kitted out. Get your raid armor from Orthanc T2 and your bling from Skirmish Raids and the Limlight Faction and consider your toon to be kitted out - where's the difficulty?
I don't really think that your assessment of the situation is a 100% correct. You can't honestly tell me, that kins, who have successfully beaten all challenges in OD on level cap, now struggle to even beat the easier T2 wings in Othanc?
He didn't actually say that, if you read again. Tarmas is referring to middle-ground kins, groups that perhaps because of their previous potential success feel they should be able to clear t2 content, this does not necessarily mean they cleared/finished all OD challenges.
As we find with Orthanc, and OD at the time certain challenges are easier than others, the gear comment refers to the fact that these kins were able to raid enough to gear those toons via the barter system that was in place, obviously now the options, as you have pointed out are much different and somewhat easier.
As to when/how a kin can be classed as a 'raiding kin' well that's a difficult one.
The interesting thing for me is that a number of NA kins, have been very slow to complete some of the Orthanc challenges, some names i recognise from past glories have been rather quiet of late, though i may be wrong, perhaps they too have found these challenges difficult.
On a personal level, to answer the OPs original question & citing a good old 'tl;dr' and being blunt about it, t2 is not too difficult but we're all different
Last edited by Neen_Eldar; Apr 30 2012 at 08:45 AM.
Tarmas is referring to middle-ground kins, groups that perhaps because of their previous potential success feel they should be able to clear t2 content, this does not necessarily mean they cleared/finished all OD challenges.
But where to draw the line for those middle-ground kins? e.g. I'd say that any kin that was able to beat Poison, Fear, Ivar or Gortheron on T2 (some of them even challenge, as non-challenge was pointless) in OD, should also be able to cope at least with the easier wings of Orthanc (Lightning T2, F&F T2). With a bit of dedication, they will probably also be able to deal with Acid T2 (the hard part here is the trash, the boss isn't that much of a challenge). If middle-ground refers to kins only having beaten Disease and/or Wound (non-challenge) in OD T2, then by all means I have to say: No, you are not in a position to say, that you absolutely should be able to clear Orthanc T2. I say this because Disease T2C and Wound T2 were so ridiculously easy, that they have been pugged for most of the time - beating any of those two wings in OD doesn't make any kin a raiding kin.
Originally Posted by Neen_Eldar
As we find with Orthanc, and OD at the time certain challenges are easier than others, ...
/signed Certain wings are for sure easier than others, but as already said by you, that's also been the case with OD
Originally Posted by Neen_Eldar
The interesting thing for me is that a number of NA kins, have been very slow to complete some of the Orthanc challenges, some names i recognise from past glories have been rather quiet of late, though i may be wrong, perhaps they too have found these challenges difficult.
Some of them (e.g. Preying Mantis) have disbanded, some of them (e.g. Firefighters) have renamed themselves and some may just have lost the majority of their roster due to other MMORPGS being released in the meantime (SWTOR anyone?). I wouldn't necessarily say that this has anything to do with the difficulty of Orthanc. If I look at my server (Morthond [DE]), I'd have to say, that all of the major raiding kins, that have been successful in OD are now also successful in Orthanc. Lightning and sometimes Fire and Frost are also regularly pugged on our server, as were Wound and Disease in OD back at the times. I don't see much of a difference in comparison to OD, besides the fact, that you get all of your gear out of T1 now.
Originally Posted by Neen_Eldar
On a personal level, to answer the OPs original question & citing a good old 'tl;dr' and being blunt about it, t2 is not too difficult but we're all different
Agreed, I also find that T2 is not too hard at all.
That's what T1 is there for - so that the majority of the players can see the content and succedd at it, even if they are average of bad players. And T1 servers this purpose quite well. Yout get to see all of the raid. Why does everyone (even players with lacking skill) need to be able to beat all challenges? They are called challenge because that's exactly what they are supposed to be: a challenge even for the best players. Heck, with T1 the vast majority of the players even gets to wear the teal raid armor, something that wasn't available back in the days with Ost Dunhoth. What's the point of making T2 challenge modes so easy, that they can be beaten by the majority?
Let me ask you something. Do you think that hardcore raiders are doing the raids solely for the difficulty? If that were the case, make T2s easier and introduce T3s. Exactly the same loot, just T3 is harder. Do you think raiders would continue to do T3 when they get nothing more from it than it being a bit harder?
Originally Posted by timmyloo22546
Majority of players are bad-average when it comes to raiding. I'd hate to see the majority be able to beat T2. If they want to experience the content there is always the option of T1. If they want to beat the most challenging content they should learn how to play, not ask the content be made easier for them.
There's a difference between having bad players who need to learn how to play and having a raid so difficult that only the hardcore players get to complete it (even those have yet to do it all).
Unless you're saying that those hardcore raiders should learn how to play, too? Since they so obviously can't beat T2 HM for certain bosses, it must just be their lack of skill.
Let me ask you something. Do you think that hardcore raiders are doing the raids solely for the difficulty? If that were the case, make T2s easier and introduce T3s. Exactly the same loot, just T3 is harder. Do you think raiders would continue to do T3 when they get nothing more from it than it being a bit harder?
Such a system is already in place, there is T1, T2 and T2C, although I have to admit that sometimes the difference between T2 and T2C isn't really there, but then again, where's the difference to OD? And yes, sometimes the harcore raiders do it just for the difficulty, unless you can point some pieces of equipment, that are actually desirable from T2 - at least from the champion's point of view I'll have to say that the loot is absolutely lackluster. Still the hardcore raiding kins all raid T2 and not T1, although the difference is loot isn't really there.
Let me ask you something, why do you, or the so called middle-ground kins want to beat T2 or even feel that you are somehow entitled to clear T2? For the loot? Don't think so. You also want to do it for the accomplishment, not for the loot. If it's about First Age Items ... you could also just farm Lightning T2C to equip your raid with First Age stuff. Other than that I don't see any severe improvement in loot going from T1 to T2.
Originally Posted by Dorothir
There's a difference between having bad players who need to learn how to play and having a raid so difficult that only the hardcore players get to complete it (even those have yet to do it all).
Unless you're saying that those hardcore raiders should learn how to play, too? Since they so obviously can't beat T2 HM for certain bosses, it must just be their lack of skill.
The point is, that the raid isn't that hard, that only the most hardcore players can beat it. But in contrast to earlier days (rift, watcher, DN) you are not allowed to bring more than 1-2 unwary players to most of the wings, as one person can wipe the whole raid, if he ain't careful. One guy not watching for a Shock in Lightning? Say good bye, if your raid isn't prepared to deal with this. One guy breaking CC on any of the trash pulls? This will most likely cause a wipe for kins/groups that don't have the pulls down by heart.
On the other hand, you don't have to be hardcore to be successful in Orthanc. Know your class, don't do stupid things and always be concentrated and that should be about it. The difference is that now all of the raid need to be focussed and not only certain key positions. Doesn't matter whether you are hardcore or not.
As for the F&F Challenge and Saruman T2, it's already stated and discussed in other threads that those two encounters are a bit off in terms of difficulty, but that's a separate matter and it doesn't make Orthanc T2 too hard in general. I don't even feel that the general difficulty is that much harder than it was in OD, but that may just be my opinion.
Edit:
Originally Posted by Dorothir
There's a difference between having bad players who need to learn how to play ...
If you have 12 people in your raid, that all know how to play, you should be able to beat the easier wings. The trick is NOT to bring even just one player, who doesn't know how to play. That one player is enough to turn success into failure.
Such a system is already in place, there is T1, T2 and T2C, although I have to admit that sometimes the difference between T2 and T2C isn't really there, but then again, where's the difference to OD?
That isn't the same as the system I proposed. T2 is harder than it should be and T2C offers better loot. What I'm saying is make those both easier and have a 3rd tier with absolutely no extra bonuses, only that it's harder.
The difference between OD and Orth is that: A. OD wasn't the only end-game multi raid, with absolutely nothing in it being of value (FAs weren't since the expansion was coming soon) and B. OD wasn't as hard as this raid.
Originally Posted by Vodomir
And yes, sometimes the harcore raiders do it just for the difficulty, unless you can point some pieces of equipment, that are actually desirable from T2 - at least from the champion's point of view I'll have to say that the loot is absolutely lackluster. Still the hardcore raiding kins all raid T2 and not T1, although the difference is loot isn't really there.
Symbols and clasps. Neither of which drop as often in T1 compared to T2 CM.
Originally Posted by Vodomir
Let me ask you something, why do you, or the so called middle-ground kins want to beat T2 or even feel that you are somehow entitled to clear T2?
I feel entitled to clear it because this is a game I pay money to play, not to have put off limits to me because I'm not a part of a harcore raiding kin.
Originally Posted by Vodomir
For the loot? Don't think so. You also want to do it for the accomplishment, not for the loot. If it's about First Age Items ... you could also just farm Lightning T2C to equip your raid with First Age stuff. Other than that I don't see any severe improvement in loot going from T1 to T2.
Again, it's about symbols and claps for loot. As for farming T2C lightning, we can't even do that. I'm at the point where T1 is worthless to me and T2 is far too difficult. It's easy for some to say it's easy but that doesn't mean it is for everyone.
Originally Posted by Vodomir
The point is, that the raid isn't that hard, that only the most hardcore players can beat it.
Actually, yes it is. Do you know anyone who has legitimately completed all of Orthanc T2 HM?
Originally Posted by Vodomir
But in contrast to earlier days (rift, watcher, DN) you are not allowed to bring more than 1-2 unwary players to most of the wings, as one person can wipe the whole raid, if he ain't careful. One guy not watching for a Shock in Lightning? Say good bye, if your raid isn't prepared to deal with this. One guy breaking CC on any of the trash pulls? This will most likely cause a wipe for kins/groups that don't have the pulls down by heart.
Exactly, so not having 12 hardcore players will result in T2 being unachievable. My kin certainly doesn't have that.
Originally Posted by Vodomir
On the other hand, you don't have to be hardcore to be successful in Orthanc. Know your class, don't do stupid things and always be concentrated and that should be about it. The difference is that now all of the raid need to be focussed and not only certain key positions. Doesn't matter whether you are hardcore or not.
I think you're confusing things here. You do need to be hardcore to do this raid. You need to be above average for your class. Most people aren't, hence why it's an average. So saying Orthanc doesn't need hardcore players is like saying the Grand Prix doesn't need racing drivers.
Originally Posted by Vodomir
As for the F&F Challenge and Saruman T2, it's already stated and discussed in other threads that those two encounters are a bit off in terms of difficulty, but that's a separate matter and it doesn't make Orthanc T2 too hard in general. I don't even feel that the general difficulty is that much harder than it was in OD, but that may just be my opinion.
That is just your opinion.
Originally Posted by Vodomir
If you have 12 people in your raid, that all know how to play, you should be able to beat the easier wings. The trick is NOT to bring even just one player, who doesn't know how to play. That one player is enough to turn success into failure.
Let me know when that's easier done than said. Do you assume every kin as 12 players of the right class who are all the top of their class?
I feel entitled to clear it because this is a game I pay money to play, not to have put off limits to me because I'm not a part of a harcore raiding kin.
You think you pay to win, but in reality you pay to play.
You basically want IWIN button. Go ask for it in suggestions forum. 4999 TP would be a fair price.
Originally Posted by Dorothir
As for farming T2C lightning, we can't even do that. I'm at the point where T1 is worthless to me and T2 is far too difficult.
Man, Lightning T2C is being PUGged, PUGGED MAN. Tons of kinship have done T2C. More than 100.
If you cant beat it, than your kin is worse than average. End of story.
Last edited by Chupakabara; Apr 30 2012 at 10:06 AM.
From what I have seen in this raid you can have 12 very good players and still not beat it and that is purely because you need to be well coordinated, if you lack that you will fail in here. The level of team work is higher in ToO than in other raids imo, in my kin we notice this when we have new people coming along each of them good players in there own right but each needing to learn how to find there niche within our raiding team.
I suppose I am lucky in my kin, we are able to farm lighting/acid and shadow challenges with 2 grps running lighting weekly. So from where I stand ToO is just about right in difficulty it is enough of a challenge that we will still wipe a few times but at the end of the day if it was too easy we would soon be bored!
No one notice's what i do, until i stop doing it. - A LM quote
You think you pay to win, but in reality you pay to play.
You basically want IWIN button. Go ask for it in suggestions forum. 4999 TP would be a fair price.
Nice strawman. Asking for things made easier =/= asking for IWIN button.
Originally Posted by Chupakabara
Man, Lightning T2C is being PUGged, PUGGED MAN. Tons of kinship have done T2C. More than 100.
If you cant beat it, than your kin is worse than average. End of story.
It might be pugged on YOUR server and completed by tons of kinships on YOUR server, but that doesn't mean the same for MY server. Do you see how your ignorance has brought you to an ignorant conclusion?
That isn't the same as the system I proposed. T2 is harder than it should be and T2C offers better loot. What I'm saying is make those both easier and have a 3rd tier with absolutely no extra bonuses, only that it's harder.
Sorry for mixing things up here. On the other hand, the loot from T2C isn't that much better than the loot from T2 or even T2. I can't name just one piece of T2C equipment that really makes a difference, but maybe I just play the wrong classes.
On an interesting sidenote: You accuse raiding kins for only doing challenges because of the loot, while in the end it's actually you hungering for the loot. I am 100% positive that most of the harcore raiding kins would still be doing T2, even if the loot is exactly the same as on T1. The loot in T2 is already lackluster and absolutely no incentive to do T2 ... it's all about the bragging rights to be amongst the players who were actually able to beat the encounter, loot is second.
Originally Posted by Dorothir
The difference between OD and Orth is that: A. OD wasn't the only end-game multi raid, with absolutely nothing in it being of value (FAs weren't since the expansion was coming soon) and B. OD wasn't as hard as this raid.
I would not bet on OD not being as difficult as Orthanc. How many of the so called middle-ground kins do you know, that cleared Gortheron T2C, Ivar T2C or Fear T2C? Those encounters were also only cleared by a hand full of kins per server. I would go as far as to say that we are currently seeing more T2C kills in Shadow and Acid than we have seen in Fear T2C back in OD.
Originally Posted by Dorothir
Symbols and clasps. Neither of which drop as often in T1 compared to T2 CM.
Clasps are a moot point. Seeing that no one has a legit T2 kill, the middle-ground kin gets as many clasps out of Orthanc as the hardcore kins. And exploit-killing Saruman on T2? Even a PUG would have been able to accomplish that. As for symbols, maybe it's different on your server, but Lightning is quite reularly pugged on our server, so you don't even need to be in any kind of kin to get yourself a Symbol.
Originally Posted by Dorothir
I feel entitled to clear it because this is a game I pay money to play, not to have put off limits to me because I'm not a part of a harcore raiding kin.
You get to see all of the content. And not being of part of a raiding kin (not necessarily hardcore, but the kin should at least have ambitions) is your decision - that's got nothing to do with how much you pay. No one forces you to play in a kin, where you don't have at least 12 people who can play their classes at a decent level. No need for hardcore player, just don't bring foul apples to the raid.
Originally Posted by Dorothir
Again, it's about symbols and claps for loot. As for farming T2C lightning, we can't even do that. I'm at the point where T1 is worthless to me and T2 is far too difficult. It's easy for some to say it's easy but that doesn't mean it is for everyone.
Why are you all about the loot?
Originally Posted by Dorothir
Actually, yes it is. Do you know anyone who has legitimately completed all of Orthanc T2 HM?
No, I don't, but this is an issue of two specific encounters. Those encounters will be fixed come U7. This still doesn't make a statement on the overall difficulty and I don't share your point that it's plain too hard. Of course it's not a walk in the park (as was Disease T2C) to get yourself a symbol, but it can still be pugged. Being pugged regularly and being too hard are two statements that just don't match one another.
Originally Posted by Dorothir
Exactly, so not having 12 hardcore players will result in T2 being unachievable. My kin certainly doesn't have that.
You don't need 12 hardcore players. 12 average players will do, unless you define average as being incapable of playing one's own class or being incapable of following instructions from the Raid Leader. If your kin doesn't have 12 people being capable to run Lightning T2 it's either time to change the kin, get yourself a spot in another raid (without changing kin) or forming an alliance with another kin to assemble a successful raid.
Originally Posted by Dorothir
I think you're confusing things here. You do need to be hardcore to do this raid. You need to be above average for your class. Most people aren't, hence why it's an average. So saying Orthanc doesn't need hardcore players is like saying the Grand Prix doesn't need racing drivers.
No once forces anyone to win a Grand Prix. You can run a bobby car race (T1) and still see all of the content you pay for. Also above average doesn't mean to be hardcore. And I think you don't even need to have all 12 spots being filled with above average players. Average players will do, as long as the Raid Leader knows what to do and everyone is able and willing to follow that plan. If out of 12 players your raid always has at least one person going brain-afk throughout the raid, that's an issue of your raid and not of the overall difficulty.
Originally Posted by Dorothir
That is just your opinion.
It most certainly is, as it's just your opinion that Orthanc T2 is too hard. If you absolutely want the loot, go for a spot in a raid that gets the job done. If you are not all about the loot ... then what are you complaining about again? I know you from the Champ Forums and I'm quite confident that you are way above average, so it shouldn't be too hard for you to get a spot in a decent raid.
Originally Posted by Dorothir
Let me know when that's easier done than said. Do you assume every kin as 12 players of the right class who are all the top of their class?
Why do you insist on needing 12 player who are the top of their class? We have at least 6 or 7 kins on our server with major success in Orthanc T2 (beating Lightning T2C, Acid T2C, Shadow T2C and F&F T2) and a dozen of kins at least being able to do Lightning T2C and F&F T2. On top of all that there's plenty of PUG-raids beating those two encounters. They can't all have the best players of their classes in those raids.
The problem with this raid is that difficulty wise this is the hardest raid that had ever been released, and the current player pool is the worst its ever been. Many of the good players have left to other mmos by now and the people we have to choose from now are f2p scrubs. If you want to raid now you have to be in a raiding kinship,period. Honestly I never understood why people complained about not being able to raid when they are in a casual kinship.
Sorry for mixing things up here. On the other hand, the loot from T2C isn't that much better than the loot from T2 or even T2. I can't name just one piece of T2C equipment that really makes a difference, but maybe I just play the wrong classes.
Correct me if I'm wrong but the chance of symbols and clasps (on Saruman at least) are improved for T2C over T2.
Originally Posted by Vodomir
On an interesting sidenote: You accuse raiding kins for only doing challenges because of the loot, while in the end it's actually you hungering for the loot. I am 100% positive that most of the harcore raiding kins would still be doing T2, even if the loot is exactly the same as on T1. The loot in T2 is already lackluster and absolutely no incentive to do T2 ... it's all about the bragging rights to be amongst the players who were actually able to beat the encounter, loot is second.
Yeah, I would prefer to have loot. The experience is not different between T1 and T2 really. The loot is different. You also can't complete the deeds (of which I am obsessed with doing) unless you do all of T2 HM.
If raiding kins really do it just for the fun, then surely it wouldn't be a problem to make T2 and HMs easier and include T3 which is harder but with no differences in loot/deeds.
Originally Posted by Vodomir
I would not bet on OD not being as difficult as Orthanc. How many of the so called middle-ground kins do you know, that cleared Gortheron T2C, Ivar T2C or Fear T2C? Those encounters were also only cleared by a hand full of kins per server. I would go as far as to say that we are currently seeing more T2C kills in Shadow and Acid than we have seen in Fear T2C back in OD.
My kin was a middle-ground kin and we did everything but Fear T2C (not sure we even bothered with Fear T2 at all) or Gortheron T2C. We did everything else. I am in the same kin and we've managed to do F&F T2 and that was a fluke. That's it. Pretty big difference in the raids.
Originally Posted by Vodomir
Clasps are a moot point. Seeing that no one has a legit T2 kill, the middle-ground kin gets as many clasps out of Orthanc as the hardcore kins. And exploit-killing Saruman on T2? Even a PUG would have been able to accomplish that. As for symbols, maybe it's different on your server, but Lightning is quite reularly pugged on our server, so you don't even need to be in any kind of kin to get yourself a Symbol.
So Saruman T2 clearly needs to be made easier.
My server, we have absolutely no pugs doing T2 Orthanc.
Originally Posted by Vodomir
You get to see all of the content. And not being of part of a raiding kin (not necessarily hardcore, but the kin should at least have ambitions) is your decision - that's got nothing to do with how much you pay. No one forces you to play in a kin, where you don't have at least 12 people who can play their classes at a decent level. No need for hardcore player, just don't bring foul apples to the raid.
Actually, it isn't my decision that I'm not part of a hardcore raiding kin. It's not like I can just go 'hey, you lot invite me in' and they just do it. It also isn't my decision on the number of above average players we have. Neither of those are my choice.
Originally Posted by Vodomir
Why are you all about the loot?
Why wouldn't I be about the loot? That's all this game is really about.
Originally Posted by Vodomir
No, I don't, but this is an issue of two specific encounters. Those encounters will be fixed come U7. This still doesn't make a statement on the overall difficulty and I don't share your point that it's plain too hard. Of course it's not a walk in the park (as was Disease T2C) to get yourself a symbol, but it can still be pugged. Being pugged regularly and being too hard are two statements that just don't match one another.
You said the raid isn't that hard and that anyone can beat it. That implies the whole raid. Since no one has beaten it, even the hardcore kins, your statement was wrong.
Originally Posted by Vodomir
You don't need 12 hardcore players. 12 average players will do, unless you define average as being incapable of playing one's own class or being incapable of following instructions from the Raid Leader. If your kin doesn't have 12 people being capable to run Lightning T2 it's either time to change the kin, get yourself a spot in another raid (without changing kin) or forming an alliance with another kin to assemble a successful raid.
Again, it isn't as easy as just going 'well, looks like I better go to a new kin and they'll have to let me in'. I'm starting to see your point of view is far from average in the regard to kins and raiding.
I sort of ignored the rest because by this point it's clear neither of us will shift on our positions. You think it's so easy a pug can beat the whole T2 raid. I think it's so difficult that my kin was falling apart because of it. Agree to disagree, I suppose.
You can't honestly tell me, that kins, who have successfully beaten all challenges in OD on level cap, now struggle to even beat the easier T2 wings in Othanc? I'd wager that Fear Challenge, Ivar Challenge and Gortheron Challenge have all been a lot harder than lets say Lightning Challenge or Fire and Frost T2.
No, I didn't say that. Only 6 kins cleared OD T2C on my server on-level and one of those was only a week before RoI. So the problem definitely started with OD, even allowing for the fact that there was only 6 months to complete OD before the level cap went up.
Orthanc has taken the OD trend and turned it up another few degrees. Kins that found OD hard work find Orthanc impossible. Even the trash in Orthanc is harder than anything we have faced before, never mind the bosses. And yes, I personally know kins who raided successfully through Rift, Watcher, BG and OD (even if not completing all Challenges) but which have given up in the face of Orthanc and have dissipated, some to other games and some to other kins - I now have some as kinmates.
Please realise that personally I *like* the difficulty of Orthanc, albeit not the artificial mechanics (but that's a different discussion). My argument here is that the curve from T1 to T2 is faaaaar too steep. When only 4 or 5 kins on my server are even running T2 *at all*, let alone beating challenges, then IMO the balance is off. My personal suggestion would be to make a larger difference between T2 and T2C. Make T2 easier, especially the trash, but ensure that the challenges reflect the current level of perfection they require.
Make it so the trash on T2 don't respawn if you kill some then wipe, like in T1. Have a trash challenge quest where you get a trash challenge chest w/1A symbols before the boss that only spawns if you clear all trash without it resetting. That's even harder to pull off than it is currently, and would give more loot for people who get *really* good at T2C but tones down the difficulty of the overall instance for the less-hardcore groups wanting to try the bosses on T2/T2C without spending forever on the trash.
The problem with this raid is that difficulty wise this is the hardest raid that had ever been released, and the current player pool is the worst its ever been. Many of the good players have left to other mmos by now and the people we have to choose from now are f2p scrubs. If you want to raid now you have to be in a raiding kinship,period. Honestly I never understood why people complained about not being able to raid when they are in a casual kinship.
Probably because for 3 years in LOTRO, you could raid without being in a hardcore raid kin. Sure, you might not get server firsts, and it might take you a month or two longer, but you could do it.
Now LOTRO raiding is catering to hardcore. Personally, I like the Draigoch model (not the difficulty--too easy). If they came out with a raid where it was moderately difficult to do with X number of people, but could be done with X-2 or X-4 people depending on player skill, and gave out the same rewards (but with more rewards per person by doing it with fewer), that could please many crowds. Non-bound loot (like Draigoch's Scales) keeps people coming back, as do rare drops.
That sort of raid offers a lot of flexibility. After months in the Rift, we (a casual kin) would run with as few as 9 or 10 people if we had to. Those of us longing for a challenge would form runs with even fewer. Or with non-ideal group makeups. 8-man Draigoch runs are fairly common, too.
There are challenges out there for people who want it--always have been--but all Turbine is really catering to now is the subset of people who want rewards to be exclusive.
Work like no one is watching, dance like you don't need the money...
Correct me if I'm wrong but the chance of symbols and clasps (on Saruman at least) are improved for T2C over T2.
Yes, you are correct, but as no one has beaten Saruman T2 yet, the chances on a clasp are the same for everyone, including hardcore and middle-ground raids and even PUGs.
Originally Posted by Dorothir
Yeah, I would prefer to have loot. The experience is not different between T1 and T2 really. The loot is different. You also can't complete the deeds (of which I am obsessed with doing) unless you do all of T2 HM.
If raiding kins really do it just for the fun, then surely it wouldn't be a problem to make T2 and HMs easier and include T3 which is harder but with no differences in loot/deeds.
As for the loot, apart from the Symbols the loot isn't that much of an improvement. So if you manage to get your First Age weapon of an alternate route (going with another raid, buying one from the AH, lucking out on a loot box etc.) you are done with the loot. As for the deeds, I feel sorry for you on this point.
Originally Posted by Dorothir
My kin was a middle-ground kin and we did everything but Fear T2C (not sure we even bothered with Fear T2 at all) or Gortheron T2C. We did everything else. I am in the same kin and we've managed to do F&F T2 and that was a fluke. That's it. Pretty big difference in the raids.
Hmm, kind of confused why you don't get to manage Lightning T2 then ... or Acid. Are you struggling with the trash or with the boss mechanic? Maybe I can help here.
Originally Posted by Dorothir
So Saruman T2 clearly needs to be made easier.
Yep and that's exactly why it IS going to be made easier with Update 7.
Originally Posted by Dorothir
My server, we have absolutely no pugs doing T2 Orthanc.
And there I assumed it was pugged on most of the server. My fault - apologies for that. Which server are you playing on?
Originally Posted by Dorothir
Actually, it isn't my decision that I'm not part of a hardcore raiding kin. It's not like I can just go 'hey, you lot invite me in' and they just do it. It also isn't my decision on the number of above average players we have. Neither of those are my choice.
Of course it's not exactly your decision, but you can still apply for a spot in one of those kins, even if you don't get to raid in their fixed groups from the beginning. Quality prevails, so you will get your spot eventually.
Originally Posted by Dorothir
Why wouldn't I be about the loot? That's all this game is really about.
That's how opinions differ ^^ For me it's all about playing the game and the accomplishment, doing something in a group, that requires a coordinated effort - it's all about the challenge and teamplay. Loot is second, though I have to admit, that character progression is all about loot, so you will need that loot to be amongst the better players of your class - no doubt about that.
Originally Posted by Dorothir
You said the raid isn't that hard and that anyone can beat it. That implies the whole raid. Since no one has beaten it, even the hardcore kins, your statement was wrong.
Just don't twist my words, I didn't say that anyone can beat it or that the whole raid is beatable atm. But parts of it are more than fair game, even in T2. Take OD for example. You admitted that your kin hasn't beaten Gortheron T2 and didn't even try Fear T2 - so would you say that it was too hard, because you weren't able to beat all of it, or because not anyone was able to do it? and honestly, if anyone was able to beat the current endgame raid at the hardest difficulty, than the raid is clearly too easy.
I have to admit though, that my experience seems to be a lot different from yours, as my server seems to be blesses with above average players and quite a good number of raiding kins to choose from. The PUG experience also seems to be vastly different.
Originally Posted by Dorothir
You think it's so easy a pug can beat the whole T2 raid. I think it's so difficult that my kin was falling apart because of it. Agree to disagree, I suppose.
No, I never said that the whole raid could possibly be PUGged. I said that we have regular PUGs running Lightning T2C and F&F T2 - that's what actually happens on my server, not lying about that. The other wings are far off from being PUGged, other than lucky PUGs where 12 twinks from the top raiding kins come together, but that's more some kind of hand selected PUG and not a real PUG.
There are challenges out there for people who want it--always have been--but all Turbine is really catering to now is the subset of people who want rewards to be exclusive.
Except for the virtual absence of any exclusive rewards (unless you count useless cloaks, warden gear or subpar jewellery as exclusive rewards) - no one runs challenges for the 'exclusive' loot. But maybe you know of loot that none of us has seen yet.
Probably because for 3 years in LOTRO, you could raid without being in a hardcore raid kin. Sure, you might not get server firsts, and it might take you a month or two longer, but you could do it.
And under the new model, those kins still can ... on T1. Problem is, people in kins who did (eventually) get raids like Rift and DN locked down now face a new world in which they must accept that they are second-tier. In reality they always were - it just didn't used to get rammed down their throats because everyone did the same fight, it just took some people longer.
Now the answer to middle ground kins recoiling from the jaw-dropping difficulty of Acid or Shadow T2 trash is "do it on T1". That's a slap in the face, however well-intended the two-tier raid model is. Plenty decide not to bother at all.
The upside of T1 is that plenty of people who never raided at all, ever, can now experience the content, and that is very welcome. So is ultra-hard content welcome for those of us lucky enough to be part of kins able to tackle T2C. But there is a yawning chasm between these two which I personally don't think is good for the game.
Except for the virtual absence of any exclusive rewards (unless you count useless cloaks, warden gear or subpar jewellery as exclusive rewards) - no one runs challenges for the 'exclusive' loot. But maybe you know of loot that none of us has seen yet.
Not sure if you were aware, but aside from the very rare lootbox, 1st Age symbols only drop from T2 ToO. Or do they drop from T1 now? I agree that having them drop from lootboxes waters down the epeen potential, but if you've read the threads on that subject, plenty of people are sore about that as well.
Are there any reasons other than loot that people want to maintain the current difficulty? Because if it's just a matter of a challenge, it's really easy to keep increasing the challenge of any given raid just from variables that are player-controlled.
Work like no one is watching, dance like you don't need the money...
the gap between T1 and T2 is imo the main problem, without anything in the game to use as a stepping stone between the two versions. the kins that are having success in T2 are the same ones that were completing the previous raids on level, so they went into T2 already knowing how to raid and how to play well. i would be fine with a nerf to T2 if it meant adding a T3 and tweaking the rewards a bit between the three versions of the raid. an orange-level armor set for T3 would be pretty sweet for example. having the rewards match the difficulty of content is a fundamental part of good game design, something that turbine seems to fail at more often than not.
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Originally Posted by dietlbomb
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. On topic though, F/F t2 isn't that hard F/F hm is too hard. I like the idea of having t2 sugnificantly harder than t1, but as it is now it's just ridiculous, we're closing in on 5 months since the update and still no one has managed parts of it. As for the loot.... well, once you've done it once or twice there's nothing more to get from there so ToO fails atm both in terms of difficulty and loot
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