Thread: Is T2 Orthanc too hard?

Originally Posted by ofMiceandHobbits

. Too hard to enjoy? Generally, yes.

Thank you to point out, what i meant.

Regards
CA

Originally Posted by ofMiceandHobbits

Fire/Frost challenge is certainly do-able. We managed to figure it out last night after a few nights trying it out. It's nothing amazing. But it does force you to approach the fight differently than the tried-n-true "kite all the grims and kill one boss before the other" tactic that most kins are using at the moment.

In general, kins have a good idea of what is going on in Orthanc. I still hate the trash, however. It's just plain not fun. My opinion. Too hard to complete? No. Too hard to enjoy? Generally, yes.

I agree completely.

I'm starting to think that a couple of the challenge modes might actually be too hard.

Shadow challenge would be okay if it was just the boss. But with the unavoidable puddles that slow attack speed, black puddles where you can't move at all, lights, roots, adds & corruptions it's a bit too far tilted towards the crazy side. Kiting is almost impossible, especially with the room closing in on you. The ravagers hit to hard with all 8 of them up, especially with all of their buffs. Which means you have to kill nearly everything. 3,000,000 damage in 5 minutes with everything that's preventing you from doing full DPS is some pretty creative math on the Dev's part. I'd rather see 7 minutes.

Saruman challenge is just stupid. Spending 20 minutes being bored just to spend 30 seconds dying over and over again is not fun. We're making progress, but it's painfully annoying and doing that fight with nobody dying would be more dumb luck than skill. I would change it by either removing Adaptation or having the 2nd add of each type spawn after you kill the first. Or maybe spawn a 2nd wave of 5 as soon as you kill the first Saruman add so that you would need to try to kill all 5 at the same time. I would also reduce it to 3 waves (2, 4 & 5).

Fire & Frost challenge - the jury is still out on this one. Once all of the mechanics are fully understood it might not be too hard; but you lose a lot of DPS having to CC each grim 3 times.

Other things I would change:
Trash - I'd nerf trash a little, just to make it trashier. Delete a warg from each Acid pull, maybe remove the Fear guys from Shadow trash.

Loot - T2 Challenge chests = guaranteed 1st age. Remove all the medium armor might gear & most of the cloaks from the loot tables. Add more might, agility & vitality jewelry.

Bugs - Acid boss fight still respawns adds like crazy after a wipe. Having to reset and reclear the trash for every attempt is not acceptable. Exploits need to be removed.

Originally Posted by Yosoff

I'm starting to think that a couple of the challenge modes might actually be too hard.

Shadow challenge would be okay if it was just the boss. But with the unavoidable puddles that slow attack speed, black puddles where you can't move at all, lights, roots, adds & corruptions it's a bit too far tilted towards the crazy side. Kiting is almost impossible, especially with the room closing in on you. The ravagers hit to hard with all 8 of them up, especially with all of their buffs. Which means you have to kill nearly everything. 3,000,000 damage in 5 minutes with everything that's preventing you from doing full DPS is some pretty creative math on the Dev's part. I'd rather see 7 minutes.

it's doable, just wipe at 17% there.. one or two better equiped chars and we would kill him already in hardmode. It's just about tactic

Originally Posted by Burio

it's doable, just wipe at 17% there.. one or two better equiped chars and we would kill him already in hardmode. It's just about tactic

Getting him down to 20% isn't hard; I'd just like to have another minute or two to get him the rest of the way. With 4 -incoming damage buffs and being owned by the adds I'd say you were probably a minute or two away from that kill. This is one of those situations where the challenge mode is being set in a way that classes could start being excluded and people will find ways to avoid major mechanics instead of confronting them directly.

Originally Posted by Yosoff

Getting him down to 20% isn't hard; I'd just like to have another minute or two to get him the rest of the way. With 4 -incoming damage buffs and being owned by the adds I'd say you were probably a minute or two away from that kill. This is one of those situations where the challenge mode is being set in a way that classes could start being excluded and people will find ways to avoid major mechanics instead of confronting them directly.

No that were not 2 minutes away from hardmode, 35% last addspawn till 20% went very easy, than we just wipe due to mistake. There were no 4 -incoming damage buffs. And we had one oathbreaker rdy.... I know what went wrong, and why we wipe. Further i say it's very doable believe it or not.

Originally Posted by Burio

No that were not 2 minutes away from hardmode, 35% last addspawn till 20% went very easy, than we just wipe due to mistake. There were no 4 -incoming damage buffs. And we had one oathbreaker rdy.... I know what went wrong, and why we wipe. Further i say it's very doable believe it or not.

I'm not saying it's impossible. I'm saying I'd rather see it as about the same difficulty as OD mammoths or Ivar. Those were tough fights to figure out but then you could eventually get them on farm mode and beat the challenge consistently. I see a lot of Shadow boss resets because the timer expired in the future.

Being possible isn't the same as whether they are too hard in the context of the game. I am sure that all the T2 Challenges are theoretically possible given utterly perfect play by outstanding players with ultra-gear and a fair run of luck with resists/crits etc.

I guess a more difficult question is whether it matters that they are so hard that no more than a tiny handful of players - meaning perhaps as few as 1 or 2 kins per server - will get the Challenges done on level. OD was hard enough that only 6 kins on my server managed a full T2/Challenge clear at lvl 65 and one of those was only a week before RoI. With ToO it will be even fewer - no more than 3 or 4 kins are even running T2s at the moment, let alone realistically trying Challenges. Is that too few? Discuss...

Originally Posted by Tarmas_Eldar

Being possible isn't the same as whether they are too hard in the context of the game. I am sure that all the T2 Challenges are theoretically possible given utterly perfect play by outstanding players with ultra-gear and a fair run of luck with resists/crits etc.

I guess a more difficult question is whether it matters that they are so hard that no more than a tiny handful of players - meaning perhaps as few as 1 or 2 kins per server - will get the Challenges done on level. OD was hard enough that only 6 kins on my server managed a full T2/Challenge clear at lvl 65 and one of those was only a week before RoI. With ToO it will be even fewer - no more than 3 or 4 kins are even running T2s at the moment, let alone realistically trying Challenges. Is that too few? Discuss...

I personally like the challenge. It's taking a long time to get this raid down, but we've also had more people logging on in kin than ever before. Why does it matter if only a few kins are downing it? The armour isn't locked behind T2 challenge clears making the gear accessible to all. Furthermore there are some T2s that are quite doable (ie. lightening and fire/frost as shown by the progression thread) so if people want access to first ages they can farm those. T2 challenge does not guarantee a first age anyway except for on Saruman so really the people that aren't capable of completing the challenge modes aren't missing out on anything spectacular and the people that enjoy banging their head against the wall for warden loot get to do that as well.

Seems like a good balance to me, let those that want to be challenged be challenged. Those that aren't into that kind of thing can do the easier version and still have access to the rewards.

Originally Posted by CaerArianrhod

Yes. Think so.



No. Don't think so. Loot (speak: rewards) are essential part of a raid.
Aside the arguments "playin with friends" and so. People have done and doing raids for loot. (or deads, titles etc. which you can take as loot in the sense of "reward for you effort". ) All raids has been done for the loot: Armour-Set, Items and so on. If you tell me, you never take a loot from raids with you: i will not believe.
The argument: "The way is the goal" is nothing else then blah blah blah. (In four years raiding in LOTRO, i have seen to much "The way is the goal"-players, who became crasy if they didnt get loot.)

Regards
CA

my point was that turbine seems to design loot last. not whether or not it should be.

read: turbine sucks balls at designing drops in raids.

I agree with the general sentiments that some of the trash is not fun and that Turbine continues to suck at making loot.

The big problem with Orthanc isn't the difficulty, it's the bugs. Acid T2 is a prime example. A fair number of kins worked through the broken fight to beat it on T2 before the last update. Prior to our win, we wasted hours trying to get the adds down within 10 seconds just to learn that our effort was wasted b/c the encounter was broken after the first wipe -ie, even when we did get it all dead in 10 seconds, they respawned anyway.

What did that update do? It made the boss fight harder without addressing the bug that causes the adds to respawn regardless of time after the first boss wipe. The bug that will only be fixed by resetting the instance and reclearing the trash.

Hats off to the folks who are willing to bang their head against the wall some more and reclear trash if there is a mistake in that boss fight. That's just not something I am willing to do, at least as long as there are other wings to attempt. It's not fun and the challenge offers no reward to justify the effort.

Originally Posted by Yosoff

I'm not saying it's impossible. I'm saying I'd rather see it as about the same difficulty as OD mammoths or Ivar. Those were tough fights to figure out but then you could eventually get them on farm mode and beat the challenge consistently. I see a lot of Shadow boss resets because the timer expired in the future.

The difference between the OD challenges and the current ones? Gear is mandatory now, where it was just a "hobby" before. Power creep is in full effect, and we asked for all of it.

Originally Posted by Tarmas_Eldar

Being possible isn't the same as whether they are too hard in the context of the game. I am sure that all the T2 Challenges are theoretically possible given utterly perfect play by outstanding players with ultra-gear and a fair run of luck with resists/crits etc.

I guess a more difficult question is whether it matters that they are so hard that no more than a tiny handful of players - meaning perhaps as few as 1 or 2 kins per server - will get the Challenges done on level. OD was hard enough that only 6 kins on my server managed a full T2/Challenge clear at lvl 65 and one of those was only a week before RoI. With ToO it will be even fewer - no more than 3 or 4 kins are even running T2s at the moment, let alone realistically trying Challenges. Is that too few? Discuss...

Given the current paradigm for how content is being designed, I would say that the challenge is "about right". This is doubly true if this content is supposed to last until the fall.

The problem is still itemization. It's not *a* problem, it's *the* problem. Itemization isn't just about getting rewarded, it's also about a clear path of progression. It wasn't uncommon over in WoW to see pug raids formed just to farm raid trash -- because the trash dropped meaningful upgrades -- which, in turn, makes a noticeable difference in the boss encounters down the line.

Maybe the update 6 cluster will make gearing up for this raid easier. Maybe not. Personally, I'd prefer that gearing went back to where it was pre-RoI since I left a gear-heavy game to play this one, but that genie isn't going back into the bottle. It stands to reason though, if content is going to be wound this tight, itemization should be equally tight. It is a requirement for the type of content that Turbine is trying to build now.

T2 is waaay too hard given the loot is ####. 1st age/clasp should be GUARANTEED on T2 challenges. It's so stupid doing T2C and receive 0 loot that is worth using.

In about 8 weeks of facing Orthanc on T2 we already got exactly 8 first age symbols and we just killed 12 bosses on tier 2 in this time. Lightning was the only one which is always done as challange. Furthermore we also got already 2 symbols from lightning, one in each chest. Only one clasp from Saruman though. Well our other LDF Raid has almost excatly the same loot statistic, so I doubt it's only luck.

Well... honestly there is nothing wrong with the Orthanc loot.

If you are excited which other stuf is possible to drop then just check out our item history (http://www.cecilie-dunkelherz.de/LDF...p?s=&p=history) even if it's in german I think it's enough proof that it ain't so bad considering we don't have any other challange done except lightning.

So please stop flaming here. Especial those who haven't done any bosses on tier 2.

Orthanc is great, a well done instance. Just the acid bug is not really necessary and Saruman could have the first Phase deleted. ^^

Originally Posted by Sinnergy

Well... honestly there is nothing wrong with the Orthanc loot

You mean when we've done T2c and recieved..

0 first ages
0 clasps
0 loot that is considered an upgrade for anyone in the raid.

All the raid leaves with is a few measley relics and extra sigil fragment. Sure, there is a chance of awesome loot dropping. There is still a great chance of absolutely horrible loot dropping making us wish we didn't even run it for the week. Clearly something is wrong with the loot system..

Originally Posted by Sinnergy

In about 8 weeks of facing Orthanc on T2 we already got exactly 8 first age symbols and we just killed 12 bosses on tier 2 in this time. Lightning was the only one which is always done as challange. Furthermore we also got already 2 symbols from lightning, one in each chest. Only one clasp from Saruman though. Well our other LDF Raid has almost excatly the same loot statistic, so I doubt it's only luck.

Well... honestly there is nothing wrong with the Orthanc loot.

Aye, agreed.

We have a kin, and friends of mine on our server that've done T2 challenge lightning 6 times and gotten 5 symbols. Very good drop rate imo. Not that hard either.

Please read my complete post and checkt our item history. Even without Challange the chance for first ages tokens is pretty high.

Originally Posted by timmyloo22546

You mean when we've done T2c and recieved..

You've done it once? Do it 2 months and you'll get your loot.
Look at the dn loot: mistress and you got 2x boots. Do it again: manadechor and certhloch
In every single raid you had trashloot.

I agree that there are maybe a bit too many cloaks, since 33% of the items are cloaks, but you get 2 items from each chest and an additional t1 item, so the chances that you get something useful are as high as they were in bg, dn, od, etc.

Originally Posted by Sinnergy

So please stop flaming here. Especial those who haven't done any bosses on tier 2.

Why do you flame then?
I know you well and i know what do you use to say in the server chats and that has not much to do with the tenor of your posting here.

CA

Oh, I know, you're this grudger that wanted to come with us to Orthanc T2 lately.
You were badly equiped and didn't want to change your traits for the raid. If I'm right, yeah... then I'm this flame guy

Trust me... I think about every sentence I write down anywhere, even in the BeleSNG.

Originally Posted by Thorebane

Aye, agreed.

We have a kin, and friends of mine on our server that've done T2 challenge lightning 6 times and gotten 5 symbols. Very good drop rate imo. Not that hard either.

I've had a bit of a different experience. Between the 3 latest Lightnings T2C runs, 1 FA. QQQQQQQQQQQQQQ.

I dunno, it's pretty funny how people want to argue others' experiences as being invalid.

Two kins have 10 T2 Orthanc boss kills each, 5 of them are lightning challenge.
One kin comes out >75% symbols per run.
Another kin comes out <25% symbols per run.

Both are right about themselves and wrong about the other.
Right? Right.

Perception's a ##### people. Consider yourself luckier than my kin if you're batting >33% even. Yes, this is based on my experience. We knew the chance would be low on the early wings, but there will always be some kins who ride the preferred portion of the bell curve. That doesn't invalidate anyone else's experience, so you might want to spend your energy on something more constructive and an argument more winnable.

Loot is fine for you? Grats.
Loot sucks for you? Rats.

Personally, I think the first wings sharing the same loot table is a bummer. Kill F/F T2 and find the same undesirables you found in the Lightning chest? I think our kin has spent DKP on one single teal item in about 6 or 7 T2 kills. That's awful. Completely awful. IMO of course.

We are 4/10 on 1st ages in our lightning kills.
We are 0/5 for anything useful at all in our Fire and Ice kills.

The loot sucks. I'm sure it will be better when challenges are done, but for now its really dissapointing.

As a minor aside, I remember back when I played everquest, people would run the last THREE expansion worth of raids because there was lots of gear that people still wanted at the increased level cap (and also because non-raid gear was generally terrible.) There were still plenty of "stinker" items, but between having 50-72 people in a raid and being able to swap people in after the boss to loot, almost all of it got used. Here? Good luck getting anyone to even deign to loot 95% of what drops in the newest/hardest raid.

I'm still consistently flabbergasted by the sheer volume of might-heavy medium armor pieces in the isengard cluster. 2/3 of medium armor classes have no use for might, and the 1 class that does has probably the least number of players of any class due to being a) premium, b) harder than average to play, and c) relatively ineffectual currently (while I would guess that hunters probably number the most of any class save possibly champions)

tl;dr turbine should find out what kind of gear players want and design some stuff that doesn't suck worse than a black hole at the bottom of the Atlantic.

We're back to the whole risk v. reward thing that Turbine just doesn't want to acknowledge nor implement.

I don't know if this is ultimately due to the recognition of the non-raiding majority or what (my guess is, it is - the best armor requires one trip thru the new raid) but for years now players have had better ideas for itemization than what we've seen put into effect. I think Turbine thought that itemization just meant throwing gobs of teals into the game, irrespective of any sort of relativity. There is no real reward here. The majority of the best items are in the game's most accessible content. That's all well and good for the majority, but it doesn't make a lot of sense - unless you're part of the "everyone gets a trophy" crowd.

When I can 6-man a 12-man skirmish in 25 mins and have access to better loot than a 12-man raid boss that my kin invested many hours in to beat (and still isn't a guaranteed auto win the next time we do it) something is seriously rotten in tuna town...

At first I was excited with RoI and seeing the plethora of nice jewelry and stuff. Draigoch cloaks, etc. Then Orthanc (the entire cluster pretty much) came out. Now, I haven't seen any but 1 raid challenge chest but even so - the items in that chest should be better than what I saw in Draigoch and certainly better than what I see in 3-mans, 6-mans and indeed 12-man skirms. Instead, I see set-breaking armor pieces (mostly of the medium variety, with might) and cloaks that would make it seem like the most desirable pieces (the Scales) in the previous raid never even existed.

I just want to know one single way this could be perceived as being on the right track?
It's insulting - no other way to put it. It's a great big badfinger pointed at every single person who likes raiding in this game, whether or not they do it for the loot... you do realize that?

Take out the 25% chance (my data) for a 1st Age Symbol to drop in Lightning Challenge.
Now equate the rest of the loot in those chests with what else is out there.
Lightning challenge should then be about on-par or perhaps slightly easier than T2C Draigoch.
T2(non-C) F/F should be as difficult as.......I dunno........the last boss in SG maybe?

I don't think it ever made any sense to have armour teals drop in raids which have armour sets as part of their loot.

Nor does it make sense to have so many cloaks when 99/100 players in Orthanc are likely to be wearing Draigoch cloaks.

The fact that this subject is as old as LOTRO doesn't mean we should stop complaining about it now. It might be assumed that Turbine would have learned from the "2 pairs of boots in Mistress chest" /facepalms, but it seems not.

Perhaps my biggest loot gripe, however, is making housing trophies ultra-rare drops. I never have understood the logic of that change.

Originally Posted by sdf-blarelius

You've done it once? Do it 2 months and you'll get your loot.
Look at the dn loot: mistress and you got 2x boots. Do it again: manadechor and certhloch
In every single raid you had trashloot.

I agree that there are maybe a bit too many cloaks, since 33% of the items are cloaks, but you get 2 items from each chest and an additional t1 item, so the chances that you get something useful are as high as they were in bg, dn, od, etc.

I've done lightning boss enough times to know that your silly statements are at the point of being delusional.

OD guaranteed a first age dropping from challenge, and you could possibly get a second from the normal chest. The chances of getting something useful in ToO is definately not as high or even close to what it was in OD.

Originally Posted by timmyloo22546

OD guaranteed a first age dropping from challenge, and you could possibly get a second from the normal chest.

Guaranteed? Not really, no. It was fairly common to do T2 Challenge Mode there without getting a First Ager. I won't comment on the rest of your argument, but that part is not true.

You're incorrect. Every OD challenge chest gaurunteed a symbol. The non challenge chests were a percentage chance at one.

Originally Posted by Ellery01

You're incorrect. Every OD challenge chest gaurunteed a symbol. The non challenge chests were a percentage chance at one.

Your experiences may be different, but don't discard others' experiences so readily. I've done OD Challenges on a weekly basis and had it come up without a First Ager several times.

Then you didn't do challenge modes. We always have a Symbol of Elderkings in the challenge mode Chest.

Originally Posted by Burio

Then you didn't do challenge modes. We always have a Symbol of Elderkings in the challenge mode Chest.

Come on guys, stop defacto calling me a liar or dismiss it as if that my powers of observations are flawed because the differ from your own.

I am absolutely positive that I have succesfully completed OD Challenges and looted the Challenge chest on several occasions without finding a Symbol of the Elder King. It may be that the probability of that happening is very low, and we did do these fights many times, or it might have been bugs; heck it could even have been Codemasters and Turbine having a small difference here (as my raid group had this experience on the Codemaster server); but nevertheless, reasons aside, the fact is that my raid group have had plenty of Challenge Chests without Elder Kings in them.

Trust me, it was a scene of much disappointment whenever we got zero First Ager from our weekly Challenge Modes.

Originally Posted by Hirion_of_Dale

Come on guys, stop defacto calling me a liar or dismiss it as if that my powers of observations are flawed because the differ from your own.

I am absolutely positive that I have succesfully completed OD Challenges and looted the Challenge chest on several occasions without finding a Symbol of the Elder King. It may be that the probability of that happening is very low, and we did do these fights many times, or it might have been bugs; heck it could even have been Codemasters and Turbine having a small difference here (as my raid group had this experience on the Codemaster server); but nevertheless, reasons aside, the fact is that my raid group have had plenty of Challenge Chests without Elder Kings in them.

Trust me, it was a scene of much disappointment whenever we got zero First Ager from our weekly Challenge Modes.

You are still wrong. The challenge mode chests in OD had a 100% chance to drop a Symbol of the Eldar King and it worked every single time. I've done a lot of challenge mode runs and never had an issue with not being rewarded with a Symbol of the Eldar King, nor have I ever heard of anyone facing this issue. Despite that, I remember there was a dev post confirming that the CM chests dropped Symbols 100% of the time, while the T2 normal mode quests only had a changce to drop a Symbol - heck, even T1 chests at least had a minor chance to drop a symbol.

The only way, you didn't get a Symbol was either you didn't beat the Challenge Mode or your Raid Leader cheated on you.

Yep, incorrect. A Tier 2 Challenge completion in Ost Dunhoth *guaranteed* a Symbol of the Elder King drop from the Challenge chest (Fancy Gold Chest). I have run OD literally *hundreds* of times, and this was always the case. If your experiences differ, then it may be a faulty memory, or some other unknown.

Only time I can remember not getting a 1st age from OD after doing challenge was the Ivar fight (bug). Safest bet was to start the fight, remove a corruption -- truely fail the challenge, then run out of room to reset. That worked for us to get around the bug. That fight was known for raids to kill Ivar T2c and the challenge chest never actually spawning, hence the normal chest which didn't have a 100% drop rate. I don't recall any other fight having a bug off the top of my head. Not getting a 1st age from challenge was possible, but not because of terrible loot design like we see in ToO.

My memory is rubbish; I am a kind of player that is not aware whether the Challenge was actually done successfully; I don't know how the Challenge chests looks; or my raid leader cheated me...

Can you possible find any more reasons to disregard my input as false? However unlikely you find my input, you actually weren't there with us and cannot know.

Look, I am not questioning your experiences on getting them on every T2 HM, nor am I questioning what might have been the intentions with the design. But the fact is - not universally; for our experience - that my raid group have had T2 HM chest come without an Elder King on several occasions. So if it was intended to drop every time a challenge was gone, then that coding must have been falty as we had incidents of it not working as such and based on our own experiences we couldn't subscribe to a 100% drop.

I would not have stated such a thing without being absolutely affirmative that this was the case. Yes I know what constitutes a successful challenge mode, and yes I do know how the chest looks, and yes I am the raid leader for my raiding group and have led every single OD raid - which counts a lot or raids - so no one could have been cheating me on this, and yes I have even checked our book-keeping logs to make up for any memory leek.

Originally Posted by Hirion_of_Dale

My memory is rubbish; I am a kind of player that is not aware whether the Challenge was actually done successfully; I don't know how the Challenge chests looks; or my raid leader cheated me...

Can you possible find any more reasons to disregard my input as false? However unlikely you find my input, you actually weren't there with us and cannot know.

Look, I am not questioning your experiences on getting them on every T2 HM, nor am I questioning what might have been the intentions with the design. But the fact is - not universally; for our experience - that my raid group have had T2 HM chest come without an Elder King on several occasions. So if it was intended to drop every time a challenge was gone, then that coding must have been falty as we had incidents of it not working as such and based on our own experiences we couldn't subscribe to a 100% drop.

I would not have stated such a thing without being absolutely affirmative that this was the case. Yes I know what constitutes a successful challenge mode, and yes I do know how the chest looks, and yes I am the raid leader for my raiding group and have led every single OD raid - which counts a lot or raids - so no one could have been cheating me on this, and yes I have even checked our book-keeping logs to make up for any memory leek.

Lets assume for a second that the coding was flawed in such a way as described by you ... how comes it was only flawed for your kin? I've never heard of a single incident before, where a challenge chest from OD did not include a Symbol of the Eldar King. You are actually the only person claiming this, while each and every other player out there will tell you, that the challenge chests guaranteed a symbol every single time. That's why people in the thread are confused by your claims, as this has always been a working mechanic and never failed before.

Pre-ROI OD challenges gave a 100% chance of a 1st age drop, that is simply a fact. I've only done it once or twice since ROI, so I don't know if that may have changed.

In total we have 6x T2HM (Lightning) & 8x T2 (F&F/Acid/Shadow) kills, which is 20 chests in total, and we've had 5 1st age symbols. The drop rate really needs to be increased, IMO.

I guess the difference in the drop rates is down to the fact that OD was released 6-7 months or so before a planned major update whereas Orthanc has to "last" 10-12 months.

Even so, given the extreme difficulty of the raid I would agree that guaranteed 1A symbols from Challenge mode chests would be more than reasonable.

Originally Posted by Hirion_of_Dale

My memory is rubbish; I am a kind of player that is not aware whether the Challenge was actually done successfully; I don't know how the Challenge chests looks; or my raid leader cheated me...

Can you possible find any more reasons to disregard my input as false? However unlikely you find my input, you actually weren't there with us and cannot know.

Look, I am not questioning your experiences on getting them on every T2 HM, nor am I questioning what might have been the intentions with the design. But the fact is - not universally; for our experience - that my raid group have had T2 HM chest come without an Elder King on several occasions. So if it was intended to drop every time a challenge was gone, then that coding must have been falty as we had incidents of it not working as such and based on our own experiences we couldn't subscribe to a 100% drop.

I would not have stated such a thing without being absolutely affirmative that this was the case. Yes I know what constitutes a successful challenge mode, and yes I do know how the chest looks, and yes I am the raid leader for my raiding group and have led every single OD raid - which counts a lot or raids - so no one could have been cheating me on this, and yes I have even checked our book-keeping logs to make up for any memory leek.

Sorry bud you're fighting a lost cause. OD Challenge was a 100% drop chance on 1 symbol from the challenge chest. So either

A) You didn't complete challenge mode but thought you did

or

B) Turbine watched your group every time they went into OD and pulled out the symbol when you finished challenge.