And this will always cause a rift in the player-base. A sect of the "have-nots" will always feel like they should be "haves" since they "pay money for this game". Well, you know, you pay money when you buy losing lotto tickets. You pay money when you go to watch a boring baseball game where your team loses. You pay money to go see a movie you might not like. Etc. Money spent on entertainment is not guaranteed to bring 100% satisfaction. But you know, even though your team lost, the beer and nachos were pretty good, right?
If they gave out beer and nachos in exchange for wiping for 3 hours on trash mobs, I bet more people would do it! As it is, the "beer and nachos" is getting to spend time with a bunch of cranky friends. At this point, you wonder why you didn't just go play freeze tag in Bree, and then when you do you start wondering why you're playing a game within a game instead of just watching TV or going to drink a beer with flesh and blood friends.
And if the "Haves" population keeps getting smaller and the "Have-nots" just quit LOTRO, who's going to pay for the next expansion/raid/hunter revamp(coming in 2047)/PVMP Zone(people still believe this)?
The *real* challenge will come when they merge every server and we have to learn German, Korean, and Russian just to be able to communicate with the 11 raiders left in LOTRO. Then we can defeat Sauron and go get jobs at the UN.
Work like no one is watching, dance like you don't need the money...
And if the "Haves" population keeps getting smaller and the "Have-nots" just quit LOTRO, who's going to pay for the next expansion/raid/hunter revamp(coming in 2047)/PVMP Zone(people still believe this)?
Raids have probably always required more dev time than the revenue they create. Maybe less-so now that we have the 2-tier system, but one has to wonder... I won't claim to know Turbine's accounting numbers, but I think it's a reasonable hunch. I would honestly be very interested to see which segment(s) of the player base bring in the most money - as in, what the big spenders partake of in-game.
I was just saying that there will always be "have-nots" complaining about what they don't have. Even with that, it is also my opinion that the balance has shifted too far away from accurate Risk v Reward. More than ever, really. People are always fine with the existence of a theoretical "nightmare" mode, but they also tend to include the caveat "for the same loot". That's selfish and horribly insulting. Of course, their tunes would likely change once/if they were able to "have" a little more by achieving a little more. Funny how that works. I don't do anything purely for the loot, but I also don't like to do things for nothing - especially if they take a lot of effort.
To have-nots (no offense intended, I've been one), I simply ask if they've ever purchased a game and not been able to complete it on its hardest difficulty? I think a lot of people can relate to that. Did you demand a refund? Consider T2 Challenges "hardest difficulty". I agree that there should be less of a gap between T1 and T2 and more of a gap between T2 and the Challenge. Something like OD's Acid wing, IMO, was just about perfectly balanced from T1 to T2 to Challenge.
People are always fine with the existence of a theoretical "nightmare" mode, but they also tend to include the caveat "for the same loot". That's selfish and horribly insulting.
I can see how some people could be insulted, but it's not inherently insulting...depending on the magnitude of the sense of entitlement. I'm all for rare titles, mounts, or cosmetics for content like current challenge modes, but I don't think that special gear is necessary. As I've said before, that doesn't feel very LOTRO-like to me. Especially since there's already the benefit of dedicated raid groups getting loot first, accumulating it faster, gearing out multiple characters quickly, and being able to sell excess in some cases.
There are plenty of opportunities to show off skill--even if "World First" and "{boss} 9-manned" threads don't get many replies (or get sour-graped), people still look up to those things as achievements.
Work like no one is watching, dance like you don't need the money...
To have-nots (no offense intended, I've been one), I simply ask if they've ever purchased a game and not been able to complete it on its hardest difficulty? I think a lot of people can relate to that. Did you demand a refund? Consider T2 Challenges "hardest difficulty". I agree that there should be less of a gap between T1 and T2 and more of a gap between T2 and the Challenge. Something like OD's Acid wing, IMO, was just about perfectly balanced from T1 to T2 to Challenge.
Difference between a game on hard difficulty and T2 CM in LOTRO? There's no difference in rewards for hardest difficulty in other games. The challenge is itself the reward. In LOTRO, the only reason people don't want the rewards to be easily available to the masses is purely a case of selfishness and epeening. Otherwise, people wouldn't object to having same loot just different levels of difficulty.
In LOTRO, the only reason people don't want the rewards to be easily available to the masses is purely a case of selfishness and epeening.
lol notatall.
I've linked about 2% of the rare items I've looted in a public channel -and of those, often at the suggestion of someone in the raid. Does it hurt you when people do that or something? Most of the time I'm anonymous so no one can see what I have anyway. I don't epeen because I know what I do.
Along with the sense of satisfaction of a rarer accomplishment, someone deserves a trophy.
It doesn't take tangible rewards for a braggart to partake of bragging. Selfish? Cripes man, you're welcome to have it, too. Go get it.
There can certainly be things in non-MMO games to be had (or more likely obtained) at higher difficulties than lower. Titles, rare loot, etc. And of course, the bragging. It doesn't apply very well to a non-social game, though. Disparities in MMOs exist for a reason. I don't think I should have access to rank 8 Moors gear because I don't have a rank 8 toon. Should I care? Even that's apparently on it's way out because the status quo believes everyone gets the same trophies no matter what they do. Meh.
Needless to say, getting 12 people on task is a trifle harder than saving your game right before that big dragon and smashing it until you win. Loot disparities are a good thing when based on difficulty.
If loot were the same on T2 and the difficulty was lowered there would a) be no incentive to repeat content and b) no challenging content for people that enjoy a greater challenge. Some people are just better players and that's the way it is (I'm certainly not the best by any means). Personally I think the challenge level is spot on (aside from F/F) for ToO.
Also, the gear isn't a ton better running T2. You can still get all the armor, FAs, and perfectly decent jewelry from T1. There's really nothing to complain about other then not being able to find 11 other decent players or just not being as good at video games (which isn't really something to complain about anyways).
Vernora ~ 65 Guardian ~ Endeavor
"The Guardian is a great class for elves because they can use the shield as a mirror when putting on lipstick."
Why do players need the best gear if they aren't running the harder content? Skirmishes and T2 3/6mans don't require the greatest gear. Wanting the best gear at no cost is to simply satisfy your own epeen which is highly hypocritical considering that is what majority of hate towards serious raiders is about.
Other than Moors play there isn't a point to first ages or the gear from ToO T2.
Why do players need the best gear if they aren't running the harder content?
I always find it funny in that regard that in LOTRO raids the equipment you need for a certain encounter tends to drop from the same encounter. This was especially true with the 'coin-sets' (Moria set was great for the Watcher fight... but only way to complete it was: Doing the Watcher without it), but it still hold: You only really 'need' 1st agers for ToO T2, and the only way to get them is first to beat ToO T2 with 2nd agers (proving you don't need them).
But back to the topic at hand of T2 vs T2C difficulty: There another thing that I liked about the bigger difference between the two in OD's early wings and that's when you 'fail' T2C (bad day, lag, wrong people etc.) at least you walk away with the normal T2 loot, there's some accomplishment, and that's much better for raiding morale than failing T2 and getting nothing.
Ingaras, lvl 75 Elven Hunter; and others... The Western Alliance, Laurelin "The priority now is the store not the game. The store no longer supports the game, its the other way around."
If loot were the same on T2 and the difficulty was lowered there would a) be no incentive to repeat content and b) no challenging content for people that enjoy a greater challenge. Some people are just better players and that's the way it is (I'm certainly not the best by any means). Personally I think the challenge level is spot on (aside from F/F) for ToO.
Also, the gear isn't a ton better running T2. You can still get all the armor, FAs, and perfectly decent jewelry from T1. There's really nothing to complain about other then not being able to find 11 other decent players or just not being as good at video games (which isn't really something to complain about anyways).
Do 1st Ages drop from T1 now? I didn't think they did, but I don't normally run T1.
Anyway, if people want a challenge, it's very easy to get one. Bring fewer people. And if the drops were the same, but T2C had a higher percentage of dropping it, that would be enough incentive for people who were capable of completing it to do so.
Work like no one is watching, dance like you don't need the money...
I always find it funny in that regard that in LOTRO raids the equipment you need for a certain encounter tends to drop from the same encounter. This was especially true with the 'coin-sets' (Moria set was great for the Watcher fight... but only way to complete it was: Doing the Watcher without it), but it still hold: You only really 'need' 1st agers for ToO T2, and the only way to get them is first to beat ToO T2 with 2nd agers (proving you don't need them).
Doing lightning + F&F T2 is much easier dps/healing wise then shadow/saruman T2. Lightning/F&F are more forgiving with different group make-ups too. Getting first ages from lightning/F&F, and even acid (although stupid mechanic, jump jump jump), will help out in Shadow T2c tremendously and saruman T2. Having those first ages/jewellery from T2 bosses 1-3 have been the difference between challenge or no challenge for us on Shadow T2c.
I always find it funny how people beg and beg and beg for things and then turn around and say to others "you don't need them" ...funny how that works, huh?
Do 1st Ages drop from T1 now? I didn't think they did, but I don't normally run T1.
They don't. At least I've never seen one. We do T1 end-of-the-week runs fairly often just for the quick Seals.
Originally Posted by Frisco
Anyway, if people want a challenge, it's very easy to get one. Bring fewer people. And if the drops were the same, but T2C had a higher percentage of dropping it, that would be enough incentive for people who were capable of completing it to do so.
What is so fundamentally destructive about Challenges offering things that are a step-up from normal T2? T2 from T1? I just don't get it. Is it also offensive that 2 > 1? lol
If I wasn't able to do T2 or Challenges, I would not waste my words trying to rain on someone else's parade - someone who was able to accomplish something I hadn't. I would use it as incentive, really - and in the past, I have.
But of course some people would rather do everything in their power to bring more accomplished players down to their level. Talk about the exact equal opposite of "e-peening". Thing is, it's just as jerky and disrespectful as e-peening.
How do you feel about titles for server-first kills?
lol notatall.
I've linked about 2% of the rare items I've looted in a public channel -and of those, often at the suggestion of someone in the raid. Does it hurt you when people do that or something? Most of the time I'm anonymous so no one can see what I have anyway. I don't epeen because I know what I do.
Along with the sense of satisfaction of a rarer accomplishment, someone deserves a trophy.
It doesn't take tangible rewards for a braggart to partake of bragging. Selfish? Cripes man, you're welcome to have it, too. Go get it.
There can certainly be things in non-MMO games to be had (or more likely obtained) at higher difficulties than lower. Titles, rare loot, etc. And of course, the bragging. It doesn't apply very well to a non-social game, though. Disparities in MMOs exist for a reason. I don't think I should have access to rank 8 Moors gear because I don't have a rank 8 toon. Should I care? Even that's apparently on it's way out because the status quo believes everyone gets the same trophies no matter what they do. Meh.
Needless to say, getting 12 people on task is a trifle harder than saving your game right before that big dragon and smashing it until you win. Loot disparities are a good thing when based on difficulty.
This is an awesome post and one most representative of the attitudes of the majority of successful raiders I have known. Currently that's not me, less time flexibility and all that, but I often thought the same thing in the past. Raiding is mostly for fun, and success over something challenging is reward in itself yes, but to most people a tangible reward as well is what helps keep the motivation when, lets be honest, you have been wiping over and over for sometimes weeks on end, beating your head at something for 3-5hrs maybe 2-3 times a week or more. Tempers can get a bit frayed and you wonder if you really are in it 'for fun'. Like many things, the elation is far sweeter the more you cried trying to beat it.
I have heard over the years lots of comments about difficulty and raiding is easier than some solo challenge etc etc..no argument there, soloing SG would be tough, but it's always felt to me that if that's the case then people should just put their money where the mouth is and go get it..then the litany of I don't have time, don't like raid kin atmosphere, prefer solo etc etc comes in....so in effect, the one truism I see is that if you want something, you have the same opportunity in game to make the choice to go get it, why someone doesn't is only really known to them (time, personality, whatever).
My impression of the people who complain about the 'haves' is that they are far more bothered about being a 'have not' than the 'haves' generally are about having something. There are exceptions no doubt, but mostly the 'epeening' that exists is between, and for, the other raiders in their kin, its a competition between themselves (at least it was for me). If you aren't "one of them" however, most of them aren't walking around thinking other players who don't have the same bling are somehow inferior, they just assume different priorities are in play.
Anyway, I do think some of T2 should be easier somewhat, there is no doubt in my mind that many of the kins who were previously able to beat Gortheron challenge for example are struggling with much of ToO T2 even this late in the day, and certainly with challenges. Not that that is necessarily a bad thing but as I said earlier, lightening challenge could probably be harder, and some T2 could probably be easier, like shadow/acid...but that's just where I sit at the moment. I've tried shadow twice T2 and haven't beaten trash, why should I expect to?
T1 - Easy. Can be done with pugs without much problem. Basic loot.
T2 - Medium. Can be done with most kins without much problem and may be a struggle for pugs. Upgraded loot.
T2 CM - Hard. Can be done with most kins but can be tricky and may take time to learn. Higher chance to win more upgraded loot.
T3 - Extreme. Can be done by raiding kins but can be tricky and may take time to learn. Even higher chance to win more upgraded loot.
T3 CM - Suicide. Even experienced raiding kins are failing. 100% chance for a lot for good loot.
The good thing about this is that:
A. Loot is not restricted by difficulty. Doing higher than T2 will just result in a higher amount of loot, not any better than T2.
B. People can still get the challenge they want from a fight and get better rewarded.
I can only see one type of person disagreeing with this: Epeeners.
I'm not an epeener, but rather someone who has learned a fair bit about human nature when it comes to MMOs, and I disagree with your idea for one simple reason:
No matter how many tiers we have we'll still have the same complaints, and likely from the same people. Those who are upset now by the fact that other people are beating T2C and they aren't will be upset because other people will be beating T3C and they aren't.
"Sam thinks it a queer place, but I think he likes it, too." - Frodo
"If you're in advertising or marketing, kill yourself." - Bill Hicks
I'm not an epeener, but rather someone who has learned a fair bit about human nature when it comes to MMOs, and I disagree with your idea for one simple reason:
No matter how many tiers we have we'll still have the same complaints, and likely from the same people. Those who are upset now by the fact that other people are beating T2C and they aren't will be upset because other people will be beating T3C and they aren't.
No because people wouldn't be missing out on anything. Currently, if you can't do T2C, you don't get the loot or the deeds. In my version, if you can't do T3C, you don't miss out on anything but the challenge.
Do you see how there's a difference? Current version has people restricted from loot. My version has everyone with access to loot.
Doing lightning + F&F T2 is much easier dps/healing wise then shadow/saruman T2. Lightning/F&F are more forgiving with different group make-ups too. Getting first ages from lightning/F&F, and even acid (although stupid mechanic, jump jump jump), will help out in Shadow T2c tremendously and saruman T2. Having those first ages/jewellery from T2 bosses 1-3 have been the difference between challenge or no challenge for us on Shadow T2c.
It's true there's a ramp-up within the instance and it's not nearly as bad with ToO as earlier instances, but the principle is exactly like I said: Orthanc T2 is gated by Orthanc T2, the progress you've made in the raid determines how far you can progress further. Which is why saying 'only players that do the hardest content need the best gear' is such a weird argument: It's like saying players who just do Foundry, don't need First Agers, so they shouldn't want them. But at the same time players who just do T2 Lightning don't need FAs either, yet they're getting them?
I'd find a more tiered setup make more sense: where the 6-mans give the gear you need for the 12-man and the 12-man mainly rewards you with either some interesting set bonus (like the OD LM set for example, or the cloak clasp system), or a small bonus for the next 6-mans. Along with an assortment of 'currency' and rare drops on par with (but not equal to) those in the 6-man.
Originally Posted by timmyloo22546
I always find it funny how people beg and beg and beg for things and then turn around and say to others "you don't need them" ...funny how that works, huh?
Hah... I challenge you to find me begging about loot. I'm perfectly capable of accepting things are out of my reach, but 'need' is a very relative word in this case: you might have needed FAs for Shadow T2C, lesser experienced/equipped groups might 'need' FAs just to get F&F T2 down.
Ingaras, lvl 75 Elven Hunter; and others... The Western Alliance, Laurelin "The priority now is the store not the game. The store no longer supports the game, its the other way around."
I'd find a more tiered setup make more sense: where the 6-mans give the gear you need for the 12-man and the 12-man mainly rewards you with either some interesting set bonus (like the OD LM set for example, or the cloak clasp system), or a small bonus for the next 6-mans. Along with an assortment of 'currency' and rare drops on par with (but not equal to) those in the 6-man.
This is almost exactly how the existing system works. T1 Orthanc can be easily done with 6man/draigoch gear, the early T2 wings can be done with the slightly better Orthanc armor, but not 1st agers. Later T2 bosses take advantage of the loot gained from previous bosses. Personally, I don't consider 1st ages a requirement for even Shadow CM, the margin for error would be very very small, but I'm confident it is theoretically possible.
Completing more difficult content grants better loot that then makes even more challenging content possible AND makes the content is was obtained from easier. When we first did lightning, none of us had a 1st age, as we accumulated better loot, including 1st agers, it became easier and allowed us to progress to harder fights (Shadow & Acid).
No because people wouldn't be missing out on anything. Currently, if you can't do T2C, you don't get the loot or the deeds. In my version, if you can't do T3C, you don't miss out on anything but the challenge.
Do you see how there's a difference? Current version has people restricted from loot. My version has everyone with access to loot.
With the understanding that I highly doubt your idea will ever happen anyway...
I can't imagine that they'd create extra tiers without deeds associated with those tiers - deeds which would be tied to whatever meta-deed the raid would have. People would still be unable to acquire everything in that case.
Also, as discussed before we've largely shown ourselves to be a community of people who like shiny things with as little challenge as possible needed to get them. If T2 offered the same loot as T3C then the developers would be putting a lot of time in for two or three tiers that would hardly ever get used. (Give 100 MMO players two paths to identical loot: path one is easy but will take them 10 weeks to get everything they want; path two is more difficult and they may never complete it even once, but if they do they might get everything they want in five weeks; path two will be darn near empty.)
In addition to that, you just can't make each tier give more of the same stuff that the lower tiers give - how much more? If it's actually enough to entice people to go back after beating the challenges the first time, then either T2 is giving very little lot - leading to more complaints, or; T3C is giving too much loot, meaning that the groups that do it could clear it a few times and be done with it, leaving them little to do for the next... however long it takes for the next raid to come out, or; there's not enough extra loot on the higher tiers, leaving them as ghost towns.
Finally, I think the idea basically goes against the entire risk/reward paradigm of MMOs (and video games in general). Whether or not the current paradigm is a good thing or not is another debate, and one that's been hashed out too many times already, but it's what we live with now. Harder content should give better loot, and significantly harder content should give significantly better loot - not just more of the same loot available via an easier path.
(That response was way longer than I intended it to be; blame the store that just had me on hold for 15 minutes.)
"Sam thinks it a queer place, but I think he likes it, too." - Frodo
"If you're in advertising or marketing, kill yourself." - Bill Hicks
For most of us this is not a professional sport. It is our hobby, and we like to play with our friends/kin.
If you are in a professional sports team, you have every right to expect the other players to be equally professional. With friends and kins in an MMO this is different. I accept that some might not be as good players as me or do not have the same amount of practice that I have. If you raise the bar so high as in ToO T2 you either have the choice to abandon your friends to play with "better" players or be left frustrated week after week.
Future tiered raids should be designed that T1 is just to see the content (without armour tokens or traits that enable one to wear the armour) and T2 should be possible for most raiders that did DN/BG. I am not a fan of the tiered system at all. In the days of the rift we had much more raiders, much more kins that raided and no one complained that there was not enough challenge in fighting Thrang or Thaurlach. Raid content can be designed challenging and not community dividing at the same time.
What is so fundamentally destructive about Challenges offering things that are a step-up from normal T2? T2 from T1? I just don't get it. Is it also offensive that 2 > 1? lol
If I wasn't able to do T2 or Challenges, I would not waste my words trying to rain on someone else's parade - someone who was able to accomplish something I hadn't. I would use it as incentive, really - and in the past, I have.
But of course some people would rather do everything in their power to bring more accomplished players down to their level. Talk about the exact equal opposite of "e-peening". Thing is, it's just as jerky and disrespectful as e-peening.
How do you feel about titles for server-first kills?
Titles for server-first kills don't mean much to me, since I don't see titles. That's definitely the sort of epeen material I'm fine with letting people have. Farm the raid on beta, beat it 3 hours after live, and wear your title proudly.
As for extra gear for T2C, I'm opposed to it because so much goes into raiding aside from actual skill. So long as they don't gear gate more content, there's no real need for a hardcore raider's gear to be better than a casual raider's, and exclusive gear doesn't mean that someone is inherently better at LOTRO. It just means that, at the very least, someone is an above average player and is lucky enough to find a group to raid with. With fewer and fewer groups completing difficult content, it becomes more and more about luck, and who you know over what you can do. I don't see why that's deserving of something more special than getting *more* of the same gear *faster*.
Work like no one is watching, dance like you don't need the money...
why is "skill" the only thing that should determine gear? seems like a rather elitist attitude and not what MMOs should be about.
That's quite a leap in logic there. Do you work for Fox News?
I don't think anyone, let alone me, is saying that there should be "only" anything. But certainly a balanced amount of skill should be necessary to complete content, and the desire to complete content is fueled by rewards.
I'm guessing you haven't been following the thread closely (or are being disingenuous) if you think that's my position, but my ideal LOTRO raiding style would include more or less the same rewards for all (titles, cosmetics, mounts, etc being exceptions), with a few factors feeding into how quickly one can reap said rewards.
Gain rewards faster by:
1. Spending more time getting them
2. Being in a skilled and determined kinship
3. Giving higher quantities of rewards with increased difficulty
4. Completing content than fewer than maximum members (seal and medallion acquisition would ideally follow this rule,as well)
I think making everything obtainable is both good for the community and fair. If someone in a hardcore raid group works hard, they can max out their character's effectiveness in, say, 3 months while someone else might take 4 or 5 or even 8 or 9 months. The hardcore person would be able to play their maxed-out character(s) for around 9 months at the level cap, which is a huge reward in and of itself, while the rest of the population would still have fun, obtainable goals. Currently, we have objectives that most people won't be able to meet until after the level cap increase, which is not exactly going to encourage a prospective raid group.
And I don't think that this is because people are necessarily not capable, but because they don't try, for reasons which include (but are not limited to): the gap between difficulty of T1 and T2, trash mobs being not the least bit encouraging (no loot, and no progressing difficulty), and most of the T1 rewards being identical to T2 (and the 1 difference--WSotEK--not even being a 100% drop).
All these things, in my observation, lead to kins delaying attempts at T2, leaving many people to decide between waiting around for a day which may never come or joining a more ambitious kin. Which has always been the case, it just seems much more prolific now. It was easy to justify staying with a kin who learned their way to the Blind One or Thrang but was struggling with those bosses, because the difference between what you had and the potential replacement wasn't so stark.
Work like no one is watching, dance like you don't need the money...
I just am not understanding this gear arguement. You can get basically the same gear from running T1. The jewelry item upgrades from T2 are marginal at best and maxing stats to that extent is really only beneficial for raiders. In fact, a lot of the best jewelry comes out of raid skirms, which are easily pugable. FAs? You can beat T2 challenges with SAs. You can get clasps, armor, and exposure to all the content from T1. So how does making T2 easier for casual raiders make sense? What is the difference between having two tiers and adding a third? There is still going to be content that people can't complete.
And yes, if you want to raid regularly and successfully, you need to join a kin that's raid oriented. If you're kin is having trouble with T2 then there's always T1 or you can switch kins. It's not ideal, but it makes more sense than advocating that content be made easier when there already is an easier version available.
Last edited by jhwort; May 07 2012 at 08:24 PM.
Vernora ~ 65 Guardian ~ Endeavor
"The Guardian is a great class for elves because they can use the shield as a mirror when putting on lipstick."
I think Souku was being tongue-in-cheek there. Feeding his words back to him.
But I am curious Frisco: what all goes into successful raiding other than actual skill? Knowledge is definitely a factor. But what else is there?
Time is evasive, since you can't say that just because someone can't raid every week that it's the reason they haven't won something. Skill can definitely trump the time factor. In reality, there just isn't much other than knowledge and skill that go into successful raiding. Gear helps, but again, skill and knowledge can offset this to a large degree.
As has been said time and again by knowledgeable folks in this thread, probably the main reason people aren't doing T2 is because T1 rewards are "good enough" and this fact makes them more allergic to challenge. The T2 trash pulls are exercises in tactics. They require a strategy. While they can be quite unforgiving if you don't execute said strat, the fact remain that sometimes we can do them one-off and sometimes take over an hour and many wipes. This leads me to feel the difficulty is mostly warranted and the main variable is execution.
It may well just be that the difficulty here was to keep people busy since we won't have another raid at least until RoR. There being nothing else to really do at level-cap leaves a pretty empty game for those who can smash T1 every week but constantly struggle with T2. But I also agree with the sentiment that the skilled raider pool is about as watered-down as it's ever been. There isn't much luck in being in with a good group - that's something that can be worked toward. The luck comes in if you are fortunate enough to still be raiding with a majority of people you've been raiding with for years.
I do agree with the sentiment that it shouldn't take a level-cap increase for a decent chunk of people to beat a raid - even T2. I would think that most longer-time raiders should be able to have the majority of a raid figured out within 3-4 months after its release, with challenges being a bit more separated from T2 than they currently are for some wings.
The sad truth is that the raid devs may need to cater more to the "watered down" state of LotRO raiders. But I think they can still find a better balance that appeals to a wider-variety of people. For this to work, there needs to be a larger gear disparity between tiers than there is now, though.
Nobody in the world has been able to complete tier 2 without cheating since the release. So the answer is; yes.
2 of 5 bosses seems to be overtuned or too much luck involved. But i think the rest of the raid is on a good level. Both encounters only need minor fixes. This fixes will be live with update 7 and then we will see kills.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
Hunter - Champion - Guardian * [DE]Morthond * Krieger des Lichts
2 of 5 bosses seems to be overtuned or too much luck involved. But i think the rest of the raid is on a good level. Both encounters only need minor fixes. This fixes will be live with update 7 and then we will see kills.
Things like that is normally discovered during alpha/beta testing - not 6 months into a live instance cluster.
I think Souku was being tongue-in-cheek there. Feeding his words back to him.
But I am curious Frisco: what all goes into successful raiding other than actual skill? Knowledge is definitely a factor. But what else is there?
Time is evasive, since you can't say that just because someone can't raid every week that it's the reason they haven't won something. Skill can definitely trump the time factor. In reality, there just isn't much other than knowledge and skill that go into successful raiding. Gear helps, but again, skill and knowledge can offset this to a large degree.
I should have been more clear. More goes into raiding than any individual's skill. The main thing being the other 11 people. Quality of leadership, as well. I say gear doesn't need to be only a reward for skill because you could have an above average person in a very determined kin filled with excellent players and great leadership, and you could have an amazing player in a more casual kin. So at best, you can reward an individual player for group skill. It's just a theoretical point, though.
The sad truth is that the raid devs may need to cater more to the "watered down" state of LotRO raiders. But I think they can still find a better balance that appeals to a wider-variety of people. For this to work, there needs to be a larger gear disparity between tiers than there is now, though.
I don't think it *needs* to be a "sad" truth. Many of us got by happily for 3 years in LOTRO creating our own challenges once we mastered those Turbine manufactured. If it reverted back to the original LOTRO style, I think most people would learn to adapt. I much prefer the "watered down" community. I'd rather see 100 kins downing content using a few "all-stars", a few "position players", and a few space cases. Now THAT'S a challenge. Getting a bunch of elite, serious players with the most skill and the best gear seems like *avoiding* the challenge. (Kinda like the Yankees. ) It's a challenge until you get it, then the "farm" is on, and you just wait your turn for gear and hope that once people get theirs they don't suddenly "have other plans" on raid night.
Work like no one is watching, dance like you don't need the money...
I should have been more clear. More goes into raiding than any individual's skill. The main thing being the other 11 people. Quality of leadership, as well. I say gear doesn't need to be only a reward for skill because you could have an above average person in a very determined kin filled with excellent players and great leadership, and you could have an amazing player in a more casual kin. So at best, you can reward an individual player for group skill. It's just a theoretical point, though.
That was always my point, individual skill in raids is totally overrated. Raids are 90% about coordination. If you have a talented raid-leader, who can coordinate his people well, you have more then half of the battle won, although you may have some unskilled players in the group.
I would really appreciate if turbine finds a system to give group- and raid-leaders a special reward, when the group they are leading succeeds in killing a boss. Maybe just an extra deed, that gives you a new title (if player is group leader while finsihing a boss -> deed++) or something for housing, cosmetic outfits, like that. I think Turbine really has to reward these persons that put so much into the game and help others to beat these hard encounters - without these people who really can and want to lead groups, lotro would be dead right now, they are essential. Also kinship leaders, they need to get some more recognition as well (there is still this beautiful crafted suggetion for a kinship revamp, if you know what I mean).
But I'm getting OT.
I started Orthanc T2 with a raid last week, and we tried it out without reading any walkthrough. I think it is really hard, because even with the 'trash' groups, there is really a lot going on you have to check for. Every mob has one or two specialties, you have to care about. And you really need to have a lot of pull & error tries, just to check out what buffs the mobs get during battle and what they do, so you can think about a strategy how to beat them. Most people hate to wipe more then three or four times in a row, that isn't fun for them anymore ... so after all, I'm really glad there is T1 for ordinary mortals, and that lotro experts can find their ultimate challenge in T2.
Last edited by MaxDetroit; May 13 2012 at 08:47 AM.
Things like that is normally discovered during alpha/beta testing - not 6 months into a live instance cluster.
a whole list of things are discovered during alpha/beta testing and are bugged/ticketed asap. Turbine simply chooses to ignore them until 6 months later.
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Originally Posted by Southpa
Work like no one is watching, dance like you don't need the money...
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