Umm, so did you try anything different when you started the fight each time or did you just do the same thing over and over again and kept getting one shotted? T1 is supposed to be puggable and it is, numerous pugs have cleared T1 now. But that being said if you walk into T1 with no idea of the strat then there's going to have to be SOME thinking and learning involved. Like "hmm when I stand right by this boss as he agro's he does a cone shaped AOE... maybe I should stand out of the AoE range and just let the tank take the hit". The idea is that the fights are easy, the mechanics are not complex and they are made quite obvious on T1. You're still going to have to figure it out as a group and let everyone in their group know what they're doing. You are after all coordinating 12 people in an instance.
There are still mechanics in the fight but as a level 75 character it shouldn't be anything outside of a player's ability... like moving your character to the side until initial agro is established to avoid AoE. Things like not standing in front of a boss because they usually do a frontal AoE as well. These are all things you guys could have tried in your 5 wipes as a trial and error type thing to learn instead of dying from the same thing 5 times and just saying this isn't possible to complete.
Of course we tried different things to get the boss not to AoE half the raid. Mostly it involved the tanks trying to control the boss's position. Those strategies didn't end up working. I'm not sure what we could have done better. The experienced players told us what to do, and they came up with adjustments after each wipe, but we still failed. I know there is a strategy, and maybe next time we will pick the right one before someone decides he'd rather be fishing.
Me, I would prefer that the lowest tier of a long raid be easy (like skirmish raid easy). I don't expect my opinion to be that of the majority, since people who run raids regularly tend to want them to be challenging. I never plan on farming any raid for gear, but just playing them occasionally for the fun of it. I just offer my experience as a non-raider trying out the Tower of Orthanc instance and finding it too difficult for my playstyle. If it isn't meant for my playstyle--casual pugging--then so be it.
Last edited by dietlbomb; Jan 14 2012 at 04:50 PM.
I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. ~ Faramir
The raid is amazing all bugs aside. Ive been having a blast. Personally I don't care if T2 challenges are next to impossible. I will wipe all night/week till I get it down. That's the fun of raiding. Trash is fine on every boss. Once you know what you are doing you can one shot every pull.
The way loot is set up makes me a bit sad. It should of been set up like this.
T1 Clear = Access to 1 of your 3 armor sets.
T2 Clear = The Other 2.
Challenges = First Ages every time on all bosses. I love how we can spend multiple nights of our lives working on these fights only to have some warden boots and a caster cloak drop.
Of course we tried different things to get the boss not to AoE half the raid. Mostly it involved the tanks trying to control the boss's position. Those strategies didn't end up working. I'm not sure what we could have done better. The experienced players told us what to do, and they came up with adjustments after each wipe, but we still failed. I know there is a strategy, and maybe next time we will pick the right one before someone decides he'd rather be fishing.
Me, I would prefer that the lowest tier of a long raid be easy (like skirmish raid easy). I don't expect my opinion to be that of the majority, since people who run raids regularly tend to want them to be challenging. I never plan on farming any raid for gear, but just playing them occasionally for the fun of it. I just offer my experience as a non-raider trying out the Tower of Orthanc instance and finding it too difficult for my playstyle. If it isn't meant for my playstyle--casual pugging--then so be it.
Pretty sure T1 Orthanc is designed to be challenging for pugs, and it sounds like it was. If you want skirmish raid easy, then do skirmish raids. You'll spend the same amount of time clearing them and get the same or better quality of loot.
The way loot is set up makes me a bit sad. It should of been set up like this.
T1 Clear = Access to 1 of your 3 armor sets.
T2 Clear = The Other 2.
Challenges = First Ages every time on all bosses. I love how we can spend multiple nights of our lives working on these fights only to have some warden boots and a caster cloak drop.
At first I was going to suggest that Turbine should hire you, but then I realized your ideas make far too much sense.
Kamriel 75 CHN, Kamsterr 75 LM, HideHobitsHere Bear Tank Extraordinaire
Once the strat for Acid trash is figured out it's pretty reasonable. We cleared it twice last night (yay for bugged bosses) and then proceeded to complete challenge mode in one shot. The fact that first ages arent guaranteed on challenge mode is absolutely ridiculous. There is no separate armour set for T2 so there's no motivation that way and furthermore there's not even a guarantee of a first age from challenge mode unless its Saruman. We killed 3 bosses last night, 2 of them on challenge and got 1 first age for the whole night. I feel like that's a little off. Challenge mode chests should at least guarantee a 1st age.
Oh and still no might/vit gear...
Grats on getting Acid Challenge! I think that makes y'all the first to do so.
"Sam thinks it a queer place, but I think he likes it, too." - Frodo
"If you're in advertising or marketing, kill yourself." - Bill Hicks
Only got limited experience of Orthanc T2 but while I don't mind difficult content, Orthanc fights seem to be sorely lacking in hints as to what's going on. Fire & Ice giants have rage ramping up but they don't say much of anything the whole fight so you're left guessing when/why that happens, likewise, not much of a clue as to how to get it decreased. According to a blue post, there's a graphical feedback when that happens but it gets lost in all the other effects. We had half a dozen fire thingies spawn together instantly wiping us at some point, again, not much of a hint as to why exactly that happened. Sure you can find out about everything through trial and errors but that doesn't seem right to me. Same with steam ramping up seemingly randomly on the lightning boss for instance.
So, point is, better feedback during the fights would be nice.
Is it too hard? Thats debateable.
Is it too hard for the loot that is rewarded? Abso-freaking-lutely.
Even the T1 loot at Saruman's wing borders on insulting. One chest, no chance of worn elder king symbol, same kind of junk loot as a regular 20 minutes skirmish. The person who designed the loot table on that one needs to buy a clue.
Is it too hard? Thats debateable.
Is it too hard for the loot that is rewarded? Abso-freaking-lutely.
Even the T1 loot at Saruman's wing borders on insulting. One chest, no chance of worn elder king symbol, same kind of junk loot as a regular 20 minutes skirmish. The person who designed the loot table on that one needs to buy a clue.
There is more to raiding than just loot. Since the armour set is gated by the T1 raid-deed (which is truly easy for pugs even) nobody is missing out on much by having a t2 version where dedicated raiders can sink their teeth into. It is one of the reasons why I think Orthanc is such a well-made instance.
Orthanc fights seem to be sorely lacking in hints as to what's going on.
In my opinion the hints are there, you just have to open you eyes or simply put out your clock, since there are in usualy 3 possible mechanics in the common bossfight. Morale based attacks / phases, time based attacks and sometime attacks which appear to be random, but in most cases you will be warned with a sentence of the boss. The combination of all is the key to every Bossfight in Lotro since its release. And Orthanc is nothing special, just a bit more complex or should I stay, grown up?!
Even hard to make a better raid in future I would say.
Sinnergy - //- Yock Orkzeport "Nothing ventured, nothing gained"
High Council of the "Legion der Freunde" raid alliance
There is more to raiding than just loot. Since the armour set is gated by the T1 raid-deed (which is truly easy for pugs even) nobody is missing out on much by having a t2 version where dedicated raiders can sink their teeth into. It is one of the reasons why I think Orthanc is such a well-made instance.
Not fully disagreeing here, from what I have seen difficulty is fine, if the trash is a bit high, I personally agree that loot should be better at least for T2 effort..or perhaps not better, but greater seals reward numbers at least.
However I think calling Orthanc "well made" goes a bit far...well made to me implies relatively bug free which it is most certainly not..well designed I could get behind.
What I like with orthanc is the fact that the team setup can be pretty varied. For OD most fights got easier if you stacked surtan classes (champ in wound, RKs in fear, burgs in poison ect). You still need the basic layout (2 tanks, captain, LM, 2 healers) but other then that you're open to bring whatever. The only class that might suffer in there are wardens, but thats not, mainly, because of the layout itself.
For the difficult part; deffinetly not! I havnt tried sauroman t2 yet, but the others should be manageable to do for most kins with decent amount of patience and raid experience. The challange modes are probably just for the top kins, as most of the look rather hard (shadow challange comes to mind^^)
And for the record, it is possible to do it with a warden.
I just picked this up last night from the Acid boss: Methathol.
AD damage, +damage to dragon-kind, icpr, agility, crit, and physical mastery. Sure, I'd like Might and Vit instead of icpr and Agility, but it has 129.6 DPS, which was better than the 123-and-change that my previous off-hand had (the teal axe from Pits w/Westernesse+orc damage). The tooltip damage for my off-hand attacks did go up nearly 5% despite me losing 200-some physical mastery switchping to the new axe, so that was nice. I guess my main-hand attacks lost about 1%, so maybe it's a wash, but meh. At least I made 11 other people happy by spending some DKP.
I present to you:
Definitely had to eat my words about no good champ stuff dropping in Orthanc.
Kamriel 75 CHN, Kamsterr 75 LM, HideHobitsHere Bear Tank Extraordinaire
Since the armour set is gated by the T1 raid-deed (which is truly easy for pugs even)
There isn't much room for a conversation when someone makes a claim like that. You randomly gather up 12 level 75 players and pug them against Saruman's wing. How many total wipes do you think they'll suffer before they finish it for the first time?
The answer if this is "truly easy" would be none, or once or twice. But the reality clearly gives a different answer.
...
Back to my original assertion : Regardless of whether Orthanc is too easy or too hard, the one single chest with the lame garbage inside as reward for beating Saruman T1 is insulting.
Back to my original assertion : Regardless of whether Orthanc is too easy or too hard, the one single chest with the lame garbage inside as reward for beating Saruman T1 is insulting.
um.. done any t2 challenges lately? lol
Shock and Awe
Hydra - Captain. Kraken - Guard. Ra - Warg
Wardens need to be removed from the game! Well, Warden loot at least. I die inside everytime we get Warden gear in the raid. I revise my original statement, the raid is far too hard for the randomness and mediocrity of the loot. Imo Symbols should be guaranteed on every T2CM. I mean after all...you only need to do T1 to get the raid set...T2 should have some proper incentive to be done, not some hopeless ungodly grind with next to nothing in the end to show for it.
Originally Posted by Comma44
I present to you:
Definitely had to eat my words about no good champ stuff dropping in Orthanc.
Hmm...I hate the loot in this place. That is a nice Axe...I guess...but why have I seen an LM sword that has more DPS than it drop?
Last edited by PhantomPunkk; Jan 20 2012 at 08:47 AM.
I solo tanked Bukot T2 on my champ, guards aren't that OP
Yes, Champs are OP too (Champ is maybe the better tank there, as he got bubbles and stuff and can heal himself via revealing mark pretty well PLUS he does good dps on the boss, too)
No, not too hard. The T2s and then challenges will keep us occupied for a couple of months yet at least I imagine. That's a good thing, once it becomes farm mode people start to loose interest (and understandably).
I think it is too hard in more than one way.
First: I have never seen/meet anybody yet, who would say: "yes, after a moths of try, i have still no clue how to do it, but i will try for more months". But I'v allready seen raids, which broke apart, because of bugs and no sight of to make progress. You may say, they should be happy with T1 and you maybe right. Maybe not.
Draigoch was loud-mouthed announced as the hardest raid we have ever seen in the game. And he was/is a joke.
In consideration of how the grind in this game growth with any upgrade/extension, i have the suspicion, that the T2 and challange have been made harder than necessary, just to make people busy. Or do you mean, you would be happy to try Orthanc till late fall and till you reach level 85???
Second: even if you say: "not too hard, you need more praxis on it". The loot has no relation to the effort. Not even on T1 at Saruman. It is a joke, and at that a very bad one. And you got the same cr-ap on T2.
Oh yes, the simbol and the clasp. Simbol can drop also on T1. Seldom, but it can. The clasp ...well, you need two and that for 12 people. Months of trying and hope it will drop and you can got one before you becomes an old and tired hero with a small hous near michel delving where you can grow some flowers.
After weeks of trying we had seen progression on the Balrog (Rift), on The Blind One, on the Lieutenant, on Ivar and so on, but we haven't seen any on the challange at Fire & Frost. We even don't know if it is bugged or not.
I think it is too hard in more than one way.
First: I have never seen/meet anybody yet, who would say: "yes, after a moths of try, i have still no clue how to do it, but i will try for more months". But I'v allready seen raids, which broke apart, because of bugs and no sight of to make progress. You may say, they should be happy with T1 and you maybe right. Maybe not.
Draigoch was loud-mouthed announced as the hardest raid we have ever seen in the game. And he was/is a joke.
In consideration of how the grind in this game growth with any upgrade/extension, i have the suspicion, that the T2 and challange have been made harder than necessary, just to make people busy. Or do you mean, you would be happy to try Orthanc till late fall and till you reach level 85???
Second: even if you say: "not too hard, you need more praxis on it". The loot has no relation to the effort. Not even on T1 at Saruman. It is a joke, and at that a very bad one. And you got the same cr-ap on T2.
Oh yes, the simbol and the clasp. Simbol can drop also on T1. Seldom, but it can. The clasp ...well, you need two and that for 12 people. Months of trying and hope it will drop and you can got one before you becomes an old and tired hero with a small hous near michel delving where you can grow some flowers.
After weeks of trying we had seen progression on the Balrog (Rift), on The Blind One, on the Lieutenant, on Ivar and so on, but we haven't seen any on the challange at Fire & Frost. We even don't know if it is bugged or not.
Regards
CA
We do T2 orthanc 2-3 times per week for ~3hours and we have 3 bosses down on T2 (though not acid post-5.1 yet). Many kins have 4/5 T2 kills. So generally raiding kins do not have "no clue how to do it" after a couple of months. Fire&Frost challenge perhaps not, but I have a suspicion that there is some extra tier down mechanic there that either no-one has worked out (unlikely) or is bugged (very likely), going by the post jwbarry made a while ago regarding that fight.
I'm going to throw an update in here based on my kin's progress. At first I did think this was too hard, but after killing Lightning T2C and Fire/Frost T2, I really don't feel that way anymore. Our run last night we blew through FF and Lightning trash really quick with only a couple deaths, the boss fights aren't too bad either. What T2 Orthanc has is a really steep learning curve, but the difficulty is fine. What it needs is T1 Orthanc to be a little bit harder so that you have a clear progression in difficulty from Draigoch to T1 to T2.
So generally raiding kins do not have "no clue how to do it" after a couple of months. Fire&Frost challenge perhaps not, but I have a suspicion that there is some extra tier down mechanic there that either no-one has worked out (unlikely) ....
I have analysed a lots of videos and fights. I think i know what we should/need do for the tier down, but i don't know how we could do it (as you say: maybe bugged)
I think it is too hard in more than one way.
First: I have never seen/meet anybody yet, who would say: "yes, after a moths of try, i have still no clue how to do it, but i will try for more months". But I'v allready seen raids, which broke apart, because of bugs and no sight of to make progress. You may say, they should be happy with T1 and you maybe right. Maybe not.
Draigoch was loud-mouthed announced as the hardest raid we have ever seen in the game. And he was/is a joke.
In consideration of how the grind in this game growth with any upgrade/extension, i have the suspicion, that the T2 and challange have been made harder than necessary, just to make people busy. Or do you mean, you would be happy to try Orthanc till late fall and till you reach level 85???
Second: even if you say: "not too hard, you need more praxis on it". The loot has no relation to the effort. Not even on T1 at Saruman. It is a joke, and at that a very bad one. And you got the same cr-ap on T2.
Oh yes, the simbol and the clasp. Simbol can drop also on T1. Seldom, but it can. The clasp ...well, you need two and that for 12 people. Months of trying and hope it will drop and you can got one before you becomes an old and tired hero with a small hous near michel delving where you can grow some flowers.
After weeks of trying we had seen progression on the Balrog (Rift), on The Blind One, on the Lieutenant, on Ivar and so on, but we haven't seen any on the challange at Fire & Frost. We even don't know if it is bugged or not.
Regards
CA
so to sum up point #2:
difficulty should match the loot, loot shouldn't match the difficulty.
am i the only one who thinks that's uhh backwards? in any case loot is obviously last on the list of things to do when making a raid.
or at least i hope it would be, considering the #### ### loot turbine gives out with every raid.
and to point #1: i'm also not sure i've ever heard of someone being in a raid for months and not getting anywhere. at that point, you should probably take a step back and ask yourself why you're playing video games lol. what you think is "forcing people to occupy their time wiping in our raid" could easily be someone else's "making a challenge to give people something fun to do with their free time".
Shock and Awe
Hydra - Captain. Kraken - Guard. Ra - Warg
Fire/Frost challenge is certainly do-able. We managed to figure it out last night after a few nights trying it out. It's nothing amazing. But it does force you to approach the fight differently than the tried-n-true "kite all the grims and kill one boss before the other" tactic that most kins are using at the moment.
In general, kins have a good idea of what is going on in Orthanc. I still hate the trash, however. It's just plain not fun. My opinion. Too hard to complete? No. Too hard to enjoy? Generally, yes.
Which wing is probably the easiest on T2? Of course T1 version says nothing about T2, but Shadow and Acid for example are absolutely ridiculous on T1. Somehow I don't think the logic "T1 is easy so T2 must be doable" applies, though.
Many philosophical problems are caused by such things as the simple inability to shut up.
Which wing is probably the easiest on T2? Of course T1 version says nothing about T2, but Shadow and Acid for example are absolutely ridiculous on T1. Somehow I don't think the logic "T1 is easy so T2 must be doable" applies, though.
Well, to be honest, shadow Boss on T1 is the easiest of all ^^ , you can kinda ignore everything that happens there, except the black fog. On T2 it's absolutely the lightning ring. It has by far the easiest mechanics of all bosses. You can summarise all important things to: Tank coordination, Shock running reaction, Lightning Shatter positioning and the Splash-dmg-add.
Sinnergy - //- Yock Orkzeport "Nothing ventured, nothing gained"
High Council of the "Legion der Freunde" raid alliance
difficulty should match the loot, loot shouldn't match the difficulty.
am i the only one who thinks that's uhh backwards?
Yes. Think so.
Originally Posted by IGolbezI
in any case loot is obviously last on the list of things to do when making a raid.
No. Don't think so. Loot (speak: rewards) are essential part of a raid.
Aside the arguments "playin with friends" and so. People have done and doing raids for loot. (or deads, titles etc. which you can take as loot in the sense of "reward for you effort". ) All raids has been done for the loot: Armour-Set, Items and so on. If you tell me, you never take a loot from raids with you: i will not believe.
The argument: "The way is the goal" is nothing else then blah blah blah. (In four years raiding in LOTRO, i have seen to much "The way is the goal"-players, who became crasy if they didnt get loot.)
Grand Member Online status:
Reputation:
Originally Posted by Comma44
Grand Member Online status:
Senior Member Online status:
Reputation:
Poster of Note Online status:
Poster of Note Online status:
Member Online status:
Member Online status:
Grand Member Online status:
Poster of Note Online status:
Re: Is T2 Orthanc too hard?
I present to you:
Grand Member Online status:
Poster of Note Online status:
Senior Member Online status:
Grand Member Online status:
Grand Member Online status:
Grand Member Online status:
Senior Member Online status:
Poster of Note Online status:
Reply With Quote
Posting Permissions
