Thread: Humor me please (opinions wanted)

I post as much as I can advocating for creeps to get a buff, at times I use vitriol as a tool to garnish attention and responses. I’ve gone to the dark side, creep is by far the most challenging and rewarding part of LOTRO I have experienced so far.

That said, I too have freep toons. Most of them are silly and unchallenging my RK was well ridiculous once I got to Epic Conclusion, guard with 12k+ morale was boring too. So I have a few other freep toons I’m preparing to bring to the moors and they aren’t far away but I can’t invest a lot of time into both and play my warg so I have to choose.

As a freep player if you could choose which toon you would want to bring to the moors and invest time into over the long haul which one of these two would you choose and why?

Hunter
Lore Master

In my observations from creep side I’ve found these to be probably the best challenge to play, particularly hunter but the Lore Master is such a unique toon I don’t want to dismiss it on the basis of challenge.

Any feedback much appreciated.

Come back to the dark side.

Originally Posted by Stevo6

Come back to the dark side.

haha I wont leave the darkside I will play my warg as often as I can. That said, when the rez camp farming starts I usually log and jump on another server. Let someone else give them their reknown.

LM.

Hunter can be tear your hair out frustrating if you're not fully geared or following a raid around as you "solo". Lore master is a challenge without being too ridiculous.

Originally Posted by xxforcardassia

LM.

Hunter can be tear your hair out frustrating if you're not fully geared or following a raid around as you "solo". Lore master is a challenge without being too ridiculous.

Thanks for the reply. I have yet to find a very good, condensed LM discussion on moors builds. Hunter there is a wealth of fairly simple data for a good moors build and its not complex to follow. The LM is more interesting to play IMHO, hunter's are great but LM's can do many things.

Ive been leaning toward hunter simply because I understand how I should play it in the moors. If I could find a nice write up on an LM in the moors (someone have a blog perhaps?) I would study it.

I play hunter and warg. Though I can't play my hunter much in Moors lately (I so hate shooting at friends), it's quite fun in PvMP. However playing a hunter in PvMP will be pretty much what you make it. I get bored following a raid or group around fast, so I'd rather go somewhere a bit more quiet and wait for a creep to come to me. I use stealth as much as I can and try to stay out of the pew pew (it's boring). Basically I think a hunter pew pew'ing from EC is likely to survive and likely to be boring as ----. A hunter played like a warg, waiting around for a good target is great fun though. Until you have good gear you could group up with someone.
I do lose a lot of battles, but this is due to not being experienced in PvMP on hunter (surprises me every time that my hunter lacks Pounce), and also sometimes what I thought to be a solo creep proves out to not quite be solo, but at least I have fun with the hunter.

Definitely LM .. they are usually in high-demand PvE side .. and I've seen really good ones hold their own in the moors. As a Hunter.. you wait for that 1 special kill and you get jumped by a warg pack... so your only option is to raid up and actually gain ranks or die often .. Once you've grown in rank and skill, as a Hunter, you can venture out solo .. and have decent fights .. but you will lose a lot more than you'll win. I think if I had it all to do again.. I would have gone LM.

Both would be good options. If you prefer to solo, a hunter might be a better choice since they are more solo friendly once you learn to play the class. Hunter's ability to stealth is nice. With either class, be prepared to have a steep learning curve if you don't have decent gear. Either class is ezmode in raid settings, and not much fun.

Loremaster, alot more to be aware of and requires a good deal more knowledge on how to play properly. But if you can't deal with mouse-turning during inductions then don't bother with either.

Originally Posted by zaskoda

Loremaster, alot more to be aware of and requires a good deal more knowledge on how to play properly. But if you can't deal with mouse-turning during inductions then don't bother with either.

most lm skills dont actually require you to be facing the target. the 2 melee skills, and BE are the exceptions. also maybe lightning? havent played my lm in the moors a whole lot lately so cant be sure on that one.

one piece of advice if you do choose lm, fast loader is your friend

If you want a different take on how to PvP a LM you should hit up Orakhodegos, rank 12 Lm, on Elendilmir (forum name Lionoil).

He beat my warg up a few times using only melee skills and power drain. No tar, stuns, ents or lightening. I may not play the best warg but I beat other LM's who bring all their skills to a fight.

He's the only melee LM I've heard of.

Hunter is a good option with the stealth. You can set up a spot and ambush any unstealthed creep. The track is nice, though useless other than knowing what's around without actually trying to spot it (due to the delay of showing up on your radar).

The LM provides a better 1v1 stance, if that's what you're aiming for. Without the stealth option (unless you're an elf) you don't get to pick your fights as much as a hunter. The paper tissue armour takes some getting used to (though you may be familiar with the RK anyway) as well as the inductions. Easier to kite with, though either class can kite. Just depends on your play style and your skills (keyboard/mouse turner).

Surely the question should really be which do you find the most enjoyable to play and is the moors going to impose necessary changes to your playstyle that might mitigate your enjoyment?

It also depends on which way you play those characters too. Is your Lore Master a Keeper or a Nuker? Is your Hunter a pew-pewer, stealthy nuker or trapper?

I admit I would like to hear what people think on these issues and how the moors affect playstyles.

Though I still think the Warg is the most awesome creature on the moors, even if not the most powerful. Just love my puppy!

Originally Posted by 0987654321

most lm skills dont actually require you to be facing the target. the 2 melee skills, and BE are the exceptions. also maybe lightning? havent played my lm in the moors a whole lot lately so cant be sure on that one.

one piece of advice if you do choose lm, fast loader is your friend

Aye, BE, Lightning Storm (though it can hit non-targetted enemies behind you if they are within the 5m radius and debuffed), (Improved) Sticky Gourd and Test of Will.
Oh and most of the Lore skills.

Originally Posted by Thorgrum

I’ve gone to the dark side, creep is by far the most challenging and rewarding part of LOTRO I have experienced so far.

Note that it hasn't always been like this (only twice before with comparable magnitude). There have been times when it was the other way around (although never with comparable magnitude).
Maps would be Red 24/7, farms at EC everyday. Minimal Freeps, Creeps would be very infamy hungry. Basically the same as now, with the only exception that when Freeps got a raid up they did pretty well (they rarely got raids up at those times).

I'd probably play a LM, simply for that fact Hunters are pretty mainstream.
I like to play both classes, so that doesn't affect the outcome.

Hunter seems like the most creepish freep class in moors, they are really good at one thing (standing in a zerg and nuking creeps that are being CCed) but they are so weak in other aspects and especially 1v1 they risk getting just outclassed.

LM is pretty solid 1v1 with their CC and decent DPS and a pet to help out, they shine in group content with debuffs, sticky tar, CC and protections but they do not seem as overpowered as some of the other freep classes.

I would take an LM, they just seem fun and challenging and like a class where you can really do well if spend a lot of time with it, hunter seems more like a class where you are going to get into losing situations regardless what you do - I can accept dying when I make a mistake or get overmatched, but I hate dying in situations where I shouldn't.

Originally Posted by BirdofHermes

Aye, BE, Lightning Storm (though it can hit non-targetted enemies behind you if they are within the 5m radius and debuffed), (Improved) Sticky Gourd and Test of Will.
Oh and most of the Lore skills.

ah. yes i forgot and about some i see. tbh though, you can win 1v1's without most of those skills. BE i do find to be a crucial skill though because of its slow.

Originally Posted by Thorgrum

Thanks for the reply. I have yet to find a very good, condensed LM discussion on moors builds. Hunter there is a wealth of fairly simple data for a good moors build and its not complex to follow. The LM is more interesting to play IMHO, hunter's are great but LM's can do many things.

Ive been leaning toward hunter simply because I understand how I should play it in the moors. If I could find a nice write up on an LM in the moors (someone have a blog perhaps?) I would study it.

Most hunters suck in the moors and always have. Take what you read on the hunter forums, as far as PvP builds go, with a grain of salt.

LM is a complex char. Lots of skills and you have to constantly figure out which is the right one at the right time and it is different from 1 v 1, to group, to raid. A good LM can turn the tide of a group or raid battle.

As a creep, I'd much rather find a hunter in the moors.

You should roll a mini! They are the hardest class to play in the moors and are completely underpowered vs all creeps class.

In all seriousness tho I agree with the majority here, LM is a fun class that are not too op but not ridiculously hard to play.

~Kazniir/Dogwillhunt

Play an LM, and play it right!

Vast majority of LMs I see trait for MoNF. While it is nice to have AoE DPS, champs can do far more AoE than an LM, and they have heavy armor to take the hits. However, if you trait deep into Ancient Master, you reveal the true strength of the loremaster class. Your DPS won't be as high, but you'll be far more useful than any DPS class. As an Ancient Master Loremaster, you'll have:

Roots
As an LM, you get two roots. Cracked earth does good damage to 5 targets, and roots them for 30s five seconds after you use the skill. Herb-Lore roots 8 targets instantly. Herb-lore has a 120s cooldown, but Cracked-Earth only has a 10s cooldown. This means that you can root massive numbers of enemies, potentially rooting half or more of the creep raid, even with root potions. This will give your raid a massive advantage, as melee classes are useless when rooted, and the creeps can't run from focus fire when rooted.


Debuffs
As an AM Loremaster, you can maintain all of the following debuffs on 8 targets:
-696 Block/Parry/Evade
-2025 Armor Value
+30% Attack Duration
+17% Miss chance
-60% Ranged Damage
-30% Melee Damage
-20% Tactical Damage
In addition, you get sticky tar, which places a hotspot on the ground that gives -50% movement speed and -10% fire mitigation. You get another hotspot which debuffs for +2% miss chance and +10% incoming tactical damage.

If you keep your raid tightly packed (forcing the creeps to group up as well), these debuffs make a staggering difference. They at least cut the damage of 8 enemies in half, as well as lowering their defenses. These debuffs essentially do the same thing as keeping 5 DPS creeps out of the fight entirely. With a Loremaster debuffing, creeps take a massive hit to outgoing damage, making your group much easier to heal.


Stuns/Mezzes
You get blinding flash, a skill which mezzes for 30s on a 15s cooldown. This will allow you to keep a healer permanently mezzed for a large part of the fight, or let you disable a pesky blackarrow.

You also get a 3s stun (30s cooldown) and a 5s stun (60s cooldown). Stuns are unlike other CC methods, in that damage doesn't break them. Stunning a creep for 5s is long enough for your raid to burn them down with focus fire. You also get a 3-target AoE stun for 3s (120s cooldown) and a 5-target AoE stun for 6s (300s cooldown). All of those stuns combined allow you to stun quite a lot of targets, especially in short bursts.


Healing
Loremaster healing is not incredible; Captains, Minstrels, and RKs can all heal better than a Loremaster. However, your healing can still save an ally from going down. In the moors, every point of morale healed counts. However, you do have the ability (if traited) to remove 3 disease and wound effects from your entire fellowship with a single, 10s cooldown skill. Creeps have a lot of debuffs and bleeds that are wounds or diseases; this can make a huge difference to your fellowship.


An LM traited for what they truly excel at (debuffs and CC) is a massively powerful force on the battlefield. As long as you can stay alive, you'll be crippling, slowing, and disabling large groups of creeps, all while doing decent AoE damage. The creeps fighting you will do far less damage, go down easier, and find themselves unable to escape the wrath of the Free Peoples with you in the mix.

We all need more well-played LMs who don't look at themselves as ranged champions. Please play an LM, and play it well.

Thanks so much for all the replies. Thus far it seems the edge is tilting toward the LM which is fine I find it challenging anyway to remember all the skills and the best time to apply them. I can see the LM being a better overall experience but the Hunter being a greater challenge. One of my issues with LM’s is the 2 heals (mine happens to be a man). Wisdom of the council also has a chance to negate shadow damage and is a massive heal, couple that with “strength of morale” and that’s 2 get out of jail cards. I’ve found that to be particularly frustrating with my warg when I get them solo (we have 3 exceptional LM’s on the server I play my warg) and honestly I can’t see loosing with those two skills.

I guess I could choose not to use them, but it’s almost like resetting the battle. Hunter doesn’t have that luxury, it may not require a great deal of strategy in terms of what skills to use when, but survivability is a challenge. Each has their own merits, I could simply level my burg and be done but for now I’m leaning more toward hunter.

However they are on different servers so I could play both.

Thanks again!

Hunters at this point are a bit too challenging. If I get jumped by 2+ good creeps or even bad ones if there are more there isnt much I can do esp if my stun pot is on cd. Usually I can get 1 kill if it is less than 4, but you dont have many options as a solo hunter who doesnt spam track in ec. That said, they are a fun class that Ive played since SoA and will continue to play.. well.. at least until GW2.. then Im not comming back to this game where the devs dont care about their players (see creep threads)

~Kazniir/Dogwillhunt

Originally Posted by Aronath

Hunters at this point are a bit too challenging. If I get jumped by 2+ good creeps or even bad ones if there are more there isnt much I can do esp if my stun pot is on cd. Usually I can get 1 kill if it is less than 4, but you dont have many options as a solo hunter who doesnt spam track in ec. That said, they are a fun class that Ive played since SoA and will continue to play.. well.. at least until GW2.. then Im not comming back to this game where the devs dont care about their players (see creep threads)

~Kazniir/Dogwillhunt

I honestly thought there would be a stronger contingent of people who advocated for hunter. Ive seen 3-4 very good ones on riddermark, they certainly can handle themselves although I concede they are by no means OP solo.

Evolving into an interesting comparative discussion indeed.

Originally Posted by Philosomanic

Play an LM, and play it right!

Vast majority of LMs I see trait for MoNF. While it is nice to have AoE DPS, champs can do far more AoE than an LM, and they have heavy armor to take the hits. However, if you trait deep into Ancient Master, you reveal the true strength of the loremaster class. Your DPS won't be as high, but you'll be far more useful than any DPS class. As an Ancient Master Loremaster, you'll have:

Roots
As an LM, you get two roots. Cracked earth does good damage to 5 targets, and roots them for 30s five seconds after you use the skill. Herb-Lore roots 8 targets instantly. Herb-lore has a 120s cooldown, but Cracked-Earth only has a 10s cooldown. This means that you can root massive numbers of enemies, potentially rooting half or more of the creep raid, even with root potions. This will give your raid a massive advantage, as melee classes are useless when rooted, and the creeps can't run from focus fire when rooted.


Debuffs
As an AM Loremaster, you can maintain all of the following debuffs on 8 targets:
-696 Block/Parry/Evade
-2025 Armor Value
+30% Attack Duration
+17% Miss chance
-60% Ranged Damage
-30% Melee Damage
-20% Tactical Damage
In addition, you get sticky tar, which places a hotspot on the ground that gives -50% movement speed and -10% fire mitigation. You get another hotspot which debuffs for +2% miss chance and +10% incoming tactical damage.

If you keep your raid tightly packed (forcing the creeps to group up as well), these debuffs make a staggering difference. They at least cut the damage of 8 enemies in half, as well as lowering their defenses. These debuffs essentially do the same thing as keeping 5 DPS creeps out of the fight entirely. With a Loremaster debuffing, creeps take a massive hit to outgoing damage, making your group much easier to heal.


Stuns/Mezzes
You get blinding flash, a skill which mezzes for 30s on a 15s cooldown. This will allow you to keep a healer permanently mezzed for a large part of the fight, or let you disable a pesky blackarrow.

You also get a 3s stun (30s cooldown) and a 5s stun (60s cooldown). Stuns are unlike other CC methods, in that damage doesn't break them. Stunning a creep for 5s is long enough for your raid to burn them down with focus fire. You also get a 3-target AoE stun for 3s (120s cooldown) and a 5-target AoE stun for 6s (300s cooldown). All of those stuns combined allow you to stun quite a lot of targets, especially in short bursts.


Healing
Loremaster healing is not incredible; Captains, Minstrels, and RKs can all heal better than a Loremaster. However, your healing can still save an ally from going down. In the moors, every point of morale healed counts. However, you do have the ability (if traited) to remove 3 disease and wound effects from your entire fellowship with a single, 10s cooldown skill. Creeps have a lot of debuffs and bleeds that are wounds or diseases; this can make a huge difference to your fellowship.


An LM traited for what they truly excel at (debuffs and CC) is a massively powerful force on the battlefield. As long as you can stay alive, you'll be crippling, slowing, and disabling large groups of creeps, all while doing decent AoE damage. The creeps fighting you will do far less damage, go down easier, and find themselves unable to escape the wrath of the Free Peoples with you in the mix.

We all need more well-played LMs who don't look at themselves as ranged champions. Please play an LM, and play it well.

too bad none of that is really viable solo :P

also, balled up freeps=dead freep raid due to blight spam and firetraps. while i agree that a debuffing lm in the moors is a big asset, it isnt as easy as it sounds. you need to know when to fire off your debuffs to hit maximum targets, you need to know where to place your tar, you need to know which class to apply which debuff to. also, while traited yellow, lm's do NOT have decent aoe damage lol. its pretty pathetic actually.

cant stun in "short bursts" due to residual stun immunity. also about mezzing a target permanently. LOOOOOOL. dazes are only half of their actual duration(i believe, unless they changed it), and any creep that joins a creep raid, is going to know to have stun and root pots with them. also, maybe you have heard if this thing called diminishing returns? yea, it reduces every stun/root/fear/daze's duration after each effect has been applied, and takes 45 seconds to reset to zero.

to be honest, if it wasnt for your sig, i would guess you dont play in the moors. sure 1 lm can root quite a lot of targets, but it isnt always beneficial to do so. you may root them in their blight, or in their firetrap for example, and this will only help them avoid taking any melee damage, as any melee class that gets close will take hotspot damage from the fire-trap, or receive the -inc healing debuff from blight, and a DoT when they leave the blight.

half of your post treated the readers like children that dont know what any skills do. please, give us some credit, we all know what the majority of skills do for each class. everyone knows wind-lore debuffs ranged, everyone knows tar slows and has a fire-mit debuff associated with it.

would be appreciated if you actually played an lm in the moors before you posted. thank you

Originally Posted by Thorgrum

[COLOR=#ffffff][FONT=Calibri][SIZE=3]I post as much as I can advocating for creeps to get a buff, at times I use vitriol as a tool to garnish attention and responses.

You mean garner. You use QQing to garner (as in gain) additional attention and responses.

Originally Posted by Philosomanic

Roots
As an LM, you get two roots. Cracked earth does good damage to 5 targets, and roots them for 30s five seconds after you use the skill. Herb-Lore roots 8 targets instantly. Herb-lore has a 120s cooldown, but Cracked-Earth only has a 10s cooldown. This means that you can root massive numbers of enemies, potentially rooting half or more of the creep raid, even with root potions. This will give your raid a massive advantage, as melee classes are useless when rooted, and the creeps can't run from focus fire when rooted.

This is a great help for Creeps.
It's a great way to reduce the duration of all the CC with 50%. (on the targets that were hit)
AOE CC is not the way to go at the start of any fight.
Single Target CC is good, make sure that the CC is functional (stopping a healer or helping focus-fire).

Originally Posted by 0987654321

(snipped)

would be appreciated if you actually played an lm in the moors before you posted. thank you

Originally Posted by Turukano

This is a great help for Creeps.
It's a great way to reduce the duration of all the CC with 50%. (on the targets that were hit)
AOE CC is not the way to go at the start of any fight.
Single Target CC is good, make sure that the CC is functional (stopping a healer or helping focus-fire).

First off, CC actually diminishes separately. You can stun a target 9 times in a row, and diminish a ton. However, even on that target you can use a fear/mez/root and it'll still be at full strength. Stuns and Fears DR separately; only roots/mezzes are counted as the same (for DR). LM roots are as strong as the strongest roots from any freeps. No freep has a root longer than 30s. This means that LMs should use their roots early and often, but save the stuns for disabling a key freep at a key moment.

I would argue that even if they DR to the point that it's only a 1-second root, they're still worth using. Any CC distrupts a player's rhythm and frustrates them, and does more good than just the duration of the effect. This is especially true if the CC is frequent and repeated.

And I agree that MoNF is best for solo. However, in groups FoW really shines through. And even though it's not as easy as it sounds (there are quite a few debuffs to make up what I've listed), you still make a tremendous impact. Even if you only keep your debuffs up half the time you could, and only hit half the targets you could, you still help your raid more than any single DPS class.

I don't know how things are in your server, but the best raid leader in ours focuses on tightly-packed groups. If we get blighted, it's no big deal. We just move over. And I also want to clarify that we don't always just stand there; we sometimes stay grouped on one spot, and sometimes push slowly forward or charge like madmen. But whatever we do, we stay close together. I've been in raids that consistently win against 3:2 numbers with those tactics. As the raid leader (Kroolbeard) loves to say, the fight is "all about battlefield".

I have both classes and can say easily loremaster is miles more fun. Hunters I find boring, yes you can kill any creep in 5 seconds due to crazy dps and crits but they just dont do it for me.

Loremaster is more fun due to the class being so more varied so simply LM = fun.

Originally Posted by lordjimdudkiewicz

You mean garner. You use QQing to garner (as in gain) additional attention and responses.

Indeed I do mean garner. I have an extremely poor grasp of English yet I find time and again people choose to read my posts on several message boards. Sometimes they take the time to correct me which is a very good indication that they understood the larger point I was trying to make. I’ve been blessed not to be a victim of worry over what other people think, which is a highly beneficial trait to have when roaming the web. So by all means please continue to correct my grammar and spelling I’ll take all the help I can get.

Do you play an LM or Hunter?

Originally Posted by LegendOfKamikazee

.....Hunters I find boring, yes you can kill any creep in 5 seconds due to crazy dps and crits but they just dont do it for me.

ooo.. a /facepalm post!! lol.. and what is your Hunter's name? Would love to see your build that allows you to "....kill any creep in 5 seconds.." oops.. I'm guessing you meant excluding afk'ers ... but maybe that is whom you were referring to.. lol

Originally Posted by LegendOfKamikazee

I have both classes and can say easily loremaster is miles more fun. Hunters I find boring, yes you can kill any creep in 5 seconds due to crazy dps and crits but they just dont do it for me.

Loremaster is more fun due to the class being so more varied so simply LM = fun.

Do you solo with the LM? Not just run on the fringes of the group but actually head out and hunt for creeps on your own? In that vein would you recommend a hunter or an LM? I know that’s only part of the game play, for me though I would like to have a freep that I can go out and solo and be challenged and expect to die. The server I have in mind I know from experience has several creep players (wargs mostly) who do solo. I would find that challenging but would need the hunter abilities to match their stealth.

Originally Posted by Odin_of_Freyr

Either class is ezmode in raid settings, and not much fun.

Which class in not easymode in raid settings? :-P

i play both a hunter and a lm in the moors, mostly solo. lm is my favorite for the cc and massive aoe damage. and the si is nice

Originally Posted by Thorgrum

I post as much as I can advocating for creeps to get a buff, at times I use vitriol as a tool to garnish attention and responses.

Yeah I noticed you did that recently. Surprised me cause your so well spoken. You make a strong argument without all that. One of the few who can.

Originally Posted by Armitas

Yeah I noticed you did that recently. Surprised me cause your so well spoken. You make a strong argument without all that. One of the few who can.

For the most part I’ve moved on from it, the truth isn’t always the best way to go particularly when it’s a technicality to a larger document. Regardless of that, vitriol is a viable tactic to employ when one wants notice. Making a spectacle in the anonymous world of the web is a practical ends to a means when you adopt the mind set of not caring what others think.

Now as sexy as that is to say, few people truly employ it. The army taught me many things, one of which is not to waste time on fools errands. Advocating for PvP in lotro on a large scale is a waste of time given the realities of the PvE game and what I believe to be dishonesty from turbine on a multitude of subjects.

However I’m still enjoying the LM and Hunter and will likely bring one or both to 75, do the requisite grinds etc. Lotro PvE still shines, that cant be denied even by the most ardent crusader against how Turbine operates. Thanks to all who participated in this thread it was a very good discussion and I learned a lot from it.