Properly traited,yes, they are death machines.... However most groups will expect you to be a healer so be clear up front if you plan to only be dps.
That's all I wanted to know I was thinking about purchasing Rune Keeper as my first class, but I prefer the look of Minstrels since they're less squishy and more mobile (or so I've read). Reason I had wanted a RK over Minstrel to begin was I didn't want to play a class that can only fill one role. I don't mind healing in most games, but it gets boring when that's all you can do.
That's all I wanted to know I was thinking about purchasing Rune Keeper as my first class, but I prefer the look of Minstrels since they're less squishy and more mobile (or so I've read). Reason I had wanted a RK over Minstrel to begin was I didn't want to play a class that can only fill one role. I don't mind healing in most games, but it gets boring when that's all you can do.
Cheers!
I have both a minstrel and a runekeeper. Both classes can heal a group effectively although I still think a minstrel has the upper hand here. Runekeepers deal more damage but they are basically glass cannons meaning that they have survivability issues especially in solo play. Personally, I like the minstrel better. Even though they wear light armor my minstrel can stay alive a LOT longer than my RK. She is pretty tough against mobs too. There isn't much that she can't handle. You have the ability to range them a bit with your tactical skills and then beat them to death when they come up close. And you can heal yourself to stay alive during the battle. It's a very nice class. I think you will like it.
Meh, traited, ya its ok I guess. Call to War, Wizards, allows a much much tighter nuking rotation then pre roi.
But to me, I would just bring a champ or a hunter or a rk, you will get more dps out of them still.
For ST damage, I rate RK # 1 in pure dps output, but hunter #1 for sustained dps .. I slot 4 blue always and replace my own power over and over on my hunter, press onward replaces like 3/4 of your blue bar by itself. THe power return on the rk is pathetic, so you if yoru lighting (you get just amazing crits, but power comsumes quickly) you will have to mix in fire to preserve some , then you have to build around fire ect ect.. with hunter.. just my standard set up gets me 3k hits on swift bow every time, thats just pretty much base.
For champ, its harder becuase you can do some amazing damage.. but as you all know, like every boss fight your forced to move around like a frentic ant, and you might be chasing add mobs for the other half the time. They defintely have thier place though and if they can concentrate on pure dps.. they will far out dps a minstrel.
Never played one. With the changes I've read about in this RoI, can Minstrels provide competitive DPS in groups?
Yes, in some groups. You will be fine for smaller groups on short content.
No, in some groups. You will not be fine for larger groups that contain another minstrel. Reason: You need to coda up your power in WS or you will run out very quickly. You cannot do this if a healing minstrel is present or you will wipe their codas too. This will anger the healer very much. Supposed to be fixed eventually whenever no date.
No, ToO raids. You simply do not have the sustained power, not by a long shot. Your dps is good in a burst situation, like pvp. In a sustained situation, your dps drops way off and your power consumption is crazy. This is assuming there is an RK healing your group, but in difficult ToO content there will be a healing minstrel in each group anyways.
I have both RK and Minstrel at ToO level, and the RK is a fun class but it is not as desireable at endgame. It also does not solo a well, due to it's incredible fragility. It needs more LIs too, so its more grindy.
The minstrel is just fine or even good dps in small groups sometimes even 6 mans. You wont be raid slotted into dps unless its like a skirmish or something. But youll always have a group on the minstrel.
The perceived main healer is almost always a safe bet in MMOs, because the company has a responsibility to ensure there is sufficient playerbase of this class that content can be completed - this is why in almost every MMO the main healer people expect to heal ends up a powerful class - no matter where it starts out the MMO company makes it a powerful class over time - this is almost always true. They have to ensure their customers can run content, so they need a certain amount of people WITH the class and a DESIRE to be on the class.
Minstrels can both DPS and heal, however they are better at healing than at DPSing. Most players assume that Minis can't DPS well, so while grouping you will face difficulties if you wish to DPS instead of heal. Added to that, the "oh (censored)" skills that a Mini has make it often the more desirable healer in a large raid.
I'm lucky enough to have two very active RKs in my kin that loathe DPSing. This has allowed us to play around with different group make-ups for 6 mans and raids. In my experience, I can DPS in a 6 man with no problems. Same with the dragon raid or older content. I have not yet DPS'ed in ToO, simply because T2 is difficult enough that you really need to have the optimal group to make it work and a Minis DPS is not as good as some others.
Some things to consider when making a Mini with hopes that you can fill both roles:
1. The world is against you, generally. People expect Minis to heal and you will face problems when asking to DPS.
2. You will need to put twice as much work in as most Minis do, because instead of needing just a healing LI and gear set, you will need DPS LIs and some gear will need to be switched out when you change roles.
3. A DPS class has to watch for many things. What's CCed, where you can and cannot AOE, aggro management, staying on target, keeping mobs off healers, ect. A healer has to watch everyone's morale, wounds/ect, know what's coming in terms of damage, and keep themselves out of harms way. A DPS Mini on the other hand, needs to do all of this. You can and will have to drop WS at any given moment to help heal. Two seconds too late may cause a wipe.
4. A DPS mini dropping to healing is almost always much more effective than a DPS RK asked to heal on the spur of the moment in battle.
5. You have several skills that can be used even in WS to help heal. HoTs, including an Anthem. Your give away bubble is nice as well.
6. Power for a DPS Mini can be a disaster. LMs will always (hopefully) give power to a healer when needed, but DPS is not a high prority, especially as Minis aren't the 'best' DPS. You will use a very large amount of potions and food. And even then, if you don't learn how and when to manage your power, you will struggle.
In all, being a Mini is great. There's always room for you in a group, in one roll or the other. You'll never be anyone's first choice for a DPS class, but if you get into a good kin this shouldn't be such an issue.
And some creeps. Most of whom shall remain nameless
That's all I wanted to know I was thinking about purchasing Rune Keeper as my first class, but I prefer the look of Minstrels since they're less squishy and more mobile (or so I've read).
My main is an Rune-keeper, but I've been playing a Minstrel since the class update and loving it. DPS is plentiful, and if you're not worrying about threat (or even want to generate it), the harmony stance coda is a group heal AND damage skill. I've used that plus the protective bubble to tank when paired with another healer!
To be honest, I'm not sure if my Rune-keeper is my main anymore. The new Minstrel is just so fun and effective that it feels like a downgrade to go from a lower-level Minstrel to a higher-level Rune-keeper.
The main problem, other than any questions of whether a minstrel is an EXPERIENCED group DPSer, is power. Minstrels are, for example, pretty awesome in solo skirmishes, where fights rarely last more than 2 minutes or so. But I'd be pretty surprised to see minstrels DPSing effectively in the Saruman fight.
I think Minstrels are pretty competitive when it comes to DPS assuming they are geared for it. RK is obviously superior but Minny dmg is very respectable.
My kin was goofing around abit tonight. At one point we did a skirmish raid with 8 people, the two healers being minstrels traited 4 red/3 blue. I was in War-Speech much of the time but did drop into healing occasionally.
And since the RK thought the first encounter mob was cute, we didn't kill it, but rather tanked it all the way through as a pet. It only died after the boss fight.
So yeah -- for other than super-hard content, minstrels can DPS just fine.
Also tonight, I decided to solo a two-man skirmish, but was tired and forgot to slot the right legendaries. So I had no Call of War capstone trait and no Cry of the Wizards. I zoomed through it anyway.
So far I've had a lot of trouble soloing three-man skirmishes -- by which I mean that in a few tries I haven't actually done it successfully -- but I don't think that speaks against us too badly. Even champs find those lively, and I haven't heard much about other classes doing them at all. And with better kiting technique I'd expect to actually succeed.
Last edited by CurtMonash; Jan 14 2012 at 06:27 AM.
My kin was goofing around abit tonight. At one point we did a skirmish raid with 8 people, the two healers being minstrels traited 4 red/3 blue. I was in War-Speech much of the time but did drop into healing occasionally.
And since the RK thought the first encounter mob was cute, we didn't kill it, but rather tanked it all the way through as a pet. It only died after the boss fight.
So yeah -- for other than super-hard content, minstrels can DPS just fine.
Yes, Minstrel can DPS.
Given proper training, legs etc... Soloing minstrel are very good.
DPS minstrel use only instants, this can make the difference !
Now a DPS minstrel can be very helpful when main healer is off ( separated group, stun, feared, eye on head of healer, dead, deco )
Aside Captain there is no possible off-heal class.
With many later instances, heavy DPS is not the (only) key.
No, people don't want minstrel to DPS.
They often lack healers.
Minstrel DPSing need lots of power.
Coda's Bug is a heavy nerf if 2 minstrels in same group.
Isengard update of Minstrels really improved minstrel healing, while nerfing RK's healing. The 2 healers had different advantages and drawbacks when healing, now no more drawbacks for minstrels. ( seems that the endless powered minstrel has been silently nerfed recently, good for RK healers... )
As a conclusion, I think Minstrel DPS and RK healer in a group can be a safe combo.
Anyways the player must be very very good, as people will expect the DPS Minstrel to do everything... at the same time!
Since a number of you said that a properly geared/played minstrel can fulfill the role of DPS in a fellowship/raid, what kind of dps numbers are you actually getting? Champs are getting up to 1700 sustained single-target DPS (see thread below). Are minstrels even close? I realize that minstrels bring a lot of utility to a group as well via buffs and heals, but I'd like to see some numbers from some well-geared minstrels just for comparison.
Since a number of you said that a properly geared/played minstrel can fulfill the role of DPS in a fellowship/raid, what kind of dps numbers are you actually getting? Champs are getting up to 1700 sustained single-target DPS (see thread below). Are minstrels even close? I realize that minstrels bring a lot of utility to a group as well via buffs and heals, but I'd like to see some numbers from some well-geared minstrels just for comparison.
Not close. The issue is sustainability. I can take out 3-5 on-level normals and get 800-1k dps avg (that's with lots of crits). However, in a longer fight, our overall DPS drops because of the cooldowns on our big skills. We ballad up between these but that DPS is not very high. Also, as noted, it drains power pretty quickly.
So, we can DPS, but the longer the fight, the less effective we are due to CDs and power drain.
Harl
Ain't no mountain high enough...
Mis-adventure is better than no adventure at all!
Mintrels are the "tanks" of the light armour classes because they can use a shield, minis can DPS if you have a good rotation, but on my mini i like to group more so i can get my healingness honed for the end game skirms so im not a noob mini that doesnt know who or when to heal and when or if they are over healing... all in all a mini is like the warden just not broken xD
The perceived main healer is almost always a safe bet in MMOs, because the company has a responsibility to ensure there is sufficient playerbase of this class that content can be completed - this is why in almost every MMO the main healer people expect to heal ends up a powerful class - no matter where it starts out the MMO company makes it a powerful class over time - this is almost always true. They have to ensure their customers can run content, so they need a certain amount of people WITH the class and a DESIRE to be on the class.
Since the question seem to be whether or not minstrels can compete with genuine dps classes such as hunters or champions, my answer to that is "no, hell no, not even close". Way lower damage, worse if AOE skills can't be used, too high power consumption.
It's true that Champions do more damage but for all-around survivability solo I'd pick a minstral every time. I've soloed many a 'fellowship' quest with my minstral with FAR greater ease than with any other class.
So if you're looking to raid it's one thing but for solo play you can't beat minstral imo.
I believe that comparison depends on level. My mini has always been with a trio of guard/champ/me, for over a year now. At lower levels, I was healing more. But starting in the 30s, I've been in Warspeech more, and it's my four AoE damage skills and done. I'm not saying the champ isn't contributing, but take me out of the equation and stuff takes twice as long to go down; if he's busy mining ore, stuff goes down in nearly the same amount of time as usual.
The caveat being we haven't gained our legendary weaponry yet, and only have one legendary trait available so far. (And we are geared out similarly, with best guild crafted weaponry, jewelry, and matching armour sets appropriate to our classes.)
"Sometimes survival comes down to not being hit. Actually, most times." -the chicken skill, Bob and Weave
So many people saying that Minstrel CAN DPS, but noone posting any Parses
Without any buffs or power restore from anthems 2min parse, took picture on ist trye so no waiting for good run or something. Not as good as pure dps classes but certanly ok for a healer
I was doing T2 Foundry with my Kin last night and since we had 2 Minis i DPSed i on a regular basis hit between 1-4K on mobs with my Cries. Plus that chance to stun on Cry is awesome in instance and PvMP
Without any buffs or power restore from anthems 2min parse, took picture on ist trye so no waiting for good run or something. Not as good as pure dps classes but certanly ok for a healer
parsing on those dummies is misleading for single target DPS because your AoE skills are going to hit multiple dummies, inflating your numbers. regardless your parse shows the clear problem with minstrels as DPS role: you are out of power 2 minutes in and already burned a pot, and all of your big skills are on cooldown.
My point is Minstrels are totally viable in current content to dps. Yes i wudnt go dps in ToO T2 or even maybe T1 . But in 6man/3man its perfectly fine and even better then some dps classes. Quick burst dmg , no fight lasts longer there then 2 min and boss fights i parse around 1000-1200 depends on situation. And when u have a capt on group power is no issue even when ur not using anthems to regenn it urself. U just need to have decent gear to dps to pull it off also. I got the ToO Dps set + 2000+ will 6k finess 19% crit.
you are out of power 2 minutes in and already burned a pot, and all of your big skills are on cooldown.
This Post make me lough.
Please play a Minstrel before you tell nonsense.
Minstrel have a lot of Burstdamage and a good Damage over Time, but they dependet on crits.
But it is as with any classes, you must have a good skillrotation. When you did, you have no problmes with cooldown on skills and no problems with power.
With the last update a Minstrel that have problems with power, thay cant play the minstrel and dont understand the skills.
With the new Damage Orthnac Set and a good rota a dps of 1,1-1,3k ist possible over 2 minutes. When i get Time i parse, but it is not so often, that a Minstrel go on damage in a Raid.
Arowynn (Jäger) Pashgrimm (Wächter) Pashtick (Barde)
Sippe Erben der Avari
I do play a minstrel, and have completed every raid on-level for the past 4 years with it.
the rest of your post goes to further prove my point. even with your perfect scenario of a specific armor set (orthanc) and a good rotation you are talking about 1.1k - 1.3k... that isn't good dps.
how about you post this skill rotation that you think is going to magically give you great dps without draining your power?
even with your perfect scenario of a specific armor set (orthanc) and a good rotation you are talking about 1.1k - 1.3k... that isn't good dps.
I think you forgot that the Minstrel is a healer class and no DD'ler and of that point i think a dps for ~1,3k is nice.
When you play Minstrel at the past, then take a look at the past.
When i make real damage, then i play a Hunter or a Champion.
I dont say the Minstrel is a full dd, but for a healer class the damage is good.
And for the problem with the power add the Hymn of Composure to the rota and you dont get power problems.
Arowynn (Jäger) Pashgrimm (Wächter) Pashtick (Barde)
Sippe Erben der Avari
We have a tendency to have "too many" minstrels in kin groups and among friends, so there's always some minstrel around going into warspeech in pretty much every instance except ToO (we just aren't good enough to consistently beat in in anything but the perfect setup yet). To be honest I have no idea how much damage I'm doing, especially since it's often decided on the fly who will go into warspeech and the minstrel will mostly be in healing traits anyway .
I agree we'd probably put out more damage as a group if we replaced the extra minstrel with a hunter, champion or dps runekeeper, but as long as we comfortably and easily get through the instance we prefer for everybody to have fun and bring their favourite character. Red-traited and with the proper gear I can even put out crits that make my husband's main, a hunter, go green with envy . Perhaps it's time to really parse those numbers and compare them ...
<rant>
As a slight aside, it costs me a gold a time to trait from solo-mode to healing and back. Now I know that's not a vast amount but it does add up especially at lower levels. If I'm bound to a location with no Bard then that means having to burn my hearthstone in order to get back to my soloing location so another half-hour wait before I can use it again. These are minor niggles and most of the time I ignore them but every now and then I just can't be bothered so when a fellowship advertises for "randoms" I will send a tell saying "I'm a dps Minstrel" then pretty much always get an invitation to join. Of course five minutes later (or worse, when the instance has been launched already) there is the inevitable "Minstrel go healing." Well when I join a fellowship explicitly as dps I think I'm justified in feeling a bit aggrieved at this. Depending on my mood I either ragequit or traipse back to a Bard to retrait and just suck it up ... usually with a snarky comment that goes straight over the head of the toddler that's leading.
I've always thought that "randoms" meant that it really didn't matter what role you played because all the bases were already covered. If a fellowship doesn't want me as dps that's fine, I just wish they'd say so up front!
</rant>
I think you forgot that the Minstrel is a healer class and no DD'ler and of that point i think a dps for ~1,3k is nice.
When you play Minstrel at the past, then take a look at the past.
When i make real damage, then i play a Hunter or a Champion.
I dont say the Minstrel is a full dd, but for a healer class the damage is good.
And for the problem with the power add the Hymn of Composure to the rota and you dont get power problems.
yes, after all of my years of playing a minstrel i forgot that it was a healer...
the original poster asked if minstrels did "competitive dps in a group", not "good dps for a healer". the answer is no.
I can leave my rk at 4 blue 3 yellow and be better at 3 and 6 man dps then my mini for the most part. Again, mini dps was really amped up and in a instance that you might have lots of aoe and two minis are in group, its not that bad. In fact a extra mini in foundry t2 wouldnt be that bad at all.
The op asked about the mini in particular if they could dps, in general short term answer is YES. In practicality, everyone who sees a mini join a group expects them to heal. If you message them and say hey, i really want to dps this time, can I come as dps, they will answer HECK yes, then 5 minuntes after you join your going to see this "hey, buddy, can you heal this, we cant find any healers". They knew up front they were going to ask you do to this, but they wanted you to pay the 400 silvers to retrait , then retrait back =P.
I like my mini dps, but its not the pure dps #s that makes the minstrel awesome in solo play, its the huge availablity of survival skills, from the healing in warspeech to bubbles, triumphant spirit and play dead =). There is usually very few areas were a mini will die. Ive kited 10 orc smiths/slavemasters in the pits of foundry in galtrev just for fun. I think I couuldve done 12, but power might have been a issue. Other classes can do this as well, guardian and warden probably not much of a issue. But again, minis are light armour wearers who do good dps (not great) but have massive survive skills. To me dps breaks down like this , not always, just generally, thats the point though, generally Champs, Hunters, RKs, Burgs, LMs will always do more dps, then a minstrel. While its true you can give outgoing damage buff and attack duration buff, the dps diffrence is to large to overcome the buffs on those classes, plus if they already have a mini in group, well they are getting those anyways.
Here is some other news, with the advent of u6 as well, rk healing changes, it will be faster, with more crits and some nifty utility buffs added. I think all and al rk healing will be fun as well.
Im not trying to steer you one way or another, just letting you know up front, that mini dps is still going to be a pretty minor secondary role for most minstrels, WHILE in group.
Its like wardens and gaurds who refuse to tank anything. They keep up throwing stuff like , Well my crit raiting is 20% and my attack duration can be changed by x and my tact mastery is y ect ect, however, it just comes down to the base damage on the skills , plus dps # on the legendaries. (there really is none, champs base damage on skills is higher, base dps #s blow out base ones on spears) So while the ministrel rotation really tightened up for roi, its still not as good as the pure dps classes, nor should it be.
Personally, I do think the mini can throw down some pretty good DPS. As for anyone who says Minstrels run through power to quickly...well frankly, you're wrong... With the addition of being able to use Anthem of Composure followed by the Coda to restore power, I almost never run out of power, healing or dpsing. As it is, I would love (however op it might be) a return to the mini criticals of (on coda of fury) 3500+ at level 58 (gosh that was fun). But as I can't see this happening anytime soon, the mini will have to get along as is. I do think that the mini can do very good dps, not as high as an rk, but better than many other classes. Honestly, I think the mini currently does better dps than a hunter, simply because most hunter dps requires inductions that can be interrupted or delayed by attacks. Minstrels can simply hit key after key to dps, without worrying about interruptions. Good dps for a mini does rely on crits part of the time, but in my experience this isn't very noticeable unless you are in the ettenmoors. In the etttenmoors....well seems like everything just goes down the drain for the mini, but that could just be me (and my going into the ettenmoors at 70).
As for fellowships, sometimes I do get asked to heal, after I said dps. In this case I generally remind them that I said I was doing dps, not healz. Then I offer to heal if they really can't find anyone else. This puts me healing some of the time (personally I don't mind that much) and dpsing other times. If they have another mini, when I already said I was dpsing, then they generally are like "ok, that's cool dude, sorry about that". If they don't have another healer it's generally, "yeah...sorry could you heal though" in which case I generally heal. But it never the less reminds them that they owe me for healing when I asked for dps. Generally after that instance I leave the group (unless I'm trying to do a lot of those instances). So in general I have a good over all experience. I don't know whether I'm just lucky, or whether Dwarrowdelf is just a particularly friendly server. But I honestly don't have that much trouble with the "asked for dps, made to heal" scenario.
For what it worth, I tend to play my minie in dps a lot, and to be honest, it simply happens that sometime I'm the biggest dps in the group. Just happened today again. And still was with antem of composture up for next coda.
So, to the OP:
* Can minstrels DPS: YES
* Can minstrels do the DPS role in fellowship/raids: YES (and what's the point to a raid dps set if not, already?)
* Can minstrels out-dps pure dps classes: YES
And, finally
* Can minstrels out-dps pure dps classes WHEN well played and geared: NO, and if that was the case, why would anyone roll one?
I think that's the point, what to compare to? Average hunter/champ, or top hunter/champ?
And please, don't throw this "dps parses" without context, they are hightly tied to the fight, where everyone have to deal with:
* mob resistances (and that's why training dummy parse are meaningless, btw... no impact with debuff legacy, they have no resist)
* fight movement. (my main hunter does less damage when moving than my minie, and that's... normal)
* single vs multiple targets (even on my hunter it's clearly not the same rotation
And even, we may include to our general DPS contribution:
* anthem of war with maxed out legacies
* light debuff, given hunters are not morons avec effectively use light oil with a WS minstrel in the group.
I may not use my minstrel for T2 ToO Fire and Ice, Shadow, or other dps-race boss, where it's already hard to win with high-end pure-dps classes, but that's all.
And on the burst DPS thing: our DPS is *better* (comparatively) on substained DPS than pure burst, because here we can tier up ballads, put anthem of war, then echoes of battle. Clearly not the same gameplay as solo DPS, and clearly not the same DPS overall.
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Originally Posted by Linwe-Elfmaiden
I was thinking about purchasing Rune Keeper as my first class, but I prefer the look of Minstrels since they're less squishy and more mobile (or so I've read). Reason I had wanted a RK over Minstrel to begin was I didn't want to play a class that can only fill one role. I don't mind healing in most games, but it gets boring when that's all you can do.
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