So I've just changed servers and am thinking of playing a runekeeper -the concept of damage and healing is a very tempting one- however I don't want a repeat of my poor warden (fun class but considerably out classed by the guardian in my experience, also saw a lot of other wardens on the forum that tended to agree). My main was/is a minstrel and after leveling him to 51 I have decided that they're just a bit too easy to play with and don't have a system that I find to be that interesting (in comparison to gambits and attunement.)
Therefore -having read my life history - my question is just simply how does the rk compare to other classes's currently? Once I reach 75 sometime in the future will I find that I won't be able to fulfil my job correctly (either healing or dps) -like the warden seems to be suffering from- and be passed over in raids for some other class (such as a mini or hunter)? Or is the rk perfectly balanced and fine? Or in your opinion are they OP (like minstrels seem to be).
I'm sorry if you're asked this question a billion times, but I'd really like to just find a class that I can settle down with and call my main, having just played through most of them to test them I would really just like to rest and play! (I've attempted warden, mini, burg , champ, hunter, a bit of rk in the past and recently guard. The other's don't particularly interest me).
I haven't much to say, just this: Rune keepers, great HOTs but not as good instant heals as minstrels. DPS is about one of the best, slightly better than hunter in the way they can do most their DPS on-the-move instead of having most of them inductions. But their only downfall is they're very squishy with light armour. Overall best DPS class and a step lower than mini's in heals.
But that is just my opinion. Edit: I forgot one thing. On Globallff you have to put up with the occasional flames about being a "Lore breaker" and being overpowered by the other side of PvP.
If you want class that will be asked to join groups forever, roll a captain. They have prestige position when it comes to group composition, unless turbine will introduce new class that will be alternative to them.
The concept of healing/damage of RK helps you much more, compared to other classes. There is no problem to join 3/6mans or 12man skirmish raids as either dps or heal. Basically you have 2 classes in 1. Not many other classes can do the same, hunters don't get invited as CC, wardens/guards as dps, etc. They are good at their alternative role, but generally people don't acknowledge that. This of course comes with a cost, where you have to have 2 sets of gear and LIs, for heal and for dps.
Same as you, I have warden which I spent alot of time on, tanking raids in Moria and Mirkwood, but now it is on lvl 68 waiting for Update 6 if things will be fixed properly.
As for doing your job properly, you definitely will be able to do that. Question is how good is that compared to alternative classes. No one doubts DPS RK.
But when it comes to healing, your competition is Minstrel. And at the moment they have slight advantage over us. And such advantage is enough for them to be picked over you. As mentioned above, for 3/6man instances and 12man skirmishes you will be fine. But for harder content, as T2 Orthanc at the moment, you have to realize raid leaders always consider the best options. As Minstrel is the only class with dread removal, that automatically guarantees them 1 spot in raid, which in 2 healer scenario is automatically 1 spot less for rk healer. In my opinion the strength of healing is the same for minstrel and rk, but they offer much more raid utility, mainly raid wide increased damage. The new rk healing set is trying to balance that, and is quite successful but imho such modified AFE should be available to us by default, not through armor set.
Saying all that, so far I have managed to get every T2 group our kin has made in attempts in ToO. As now we are in the process of progress, I usually am 3rd healer to 2 minstrels. But I am afraid once we get the bosses on farm, there won't be need for 3rd healer thus I will be asked to DPS.
I have a Minstrel in ToO gear, an RK getting into ToO gear, and a Champion who is waiting in the queue. I am a realist, not a denialist, and I have no interest or incentive to argue one class over another. I just want whats best at the role, and to have a fun time doing it. I primarly play healers; I learned to do so in DAoC RvR so I am a good critical thinker and like 'building groups to design'.
It really depends on what you want to do: Heal raid, heal group, dps raid, dps group, moors, etc - also what level of gear you will end up with and how competitive your kin is. My kin is in the best gear, even gold-colored necks already from the Cloak clasp drop - and runs groups with strong buffs, and competent players. Thats the seat I sit in so thats where my view comes from - groups/raids specifically designed to fill certain classes with specs, classes must be in top notch gear, players who know their class, an excellent raid leader etc etc. In short - a min/max group/raid.
Aside from my opinion, you can ask RKs on your server 'how the class loyalty is' (its very poor people give up on the class a lot), how many RK players quit (a lot), how long X person has been MAINING the rk, etc. Once you start talking you can inspect them to see if they are a casual player or a serious player.
Be sure to do the same thing for other class roles you are considering. You will find tremendous loyalty in all of the classes the RK competes on its roles for.
This is really all you need to know, it tells you exactly which way the wind is blowing.
RKs are okay at some of things, poor at others. The're currently problems in implementation that get in the way of the RK being as efficient or useful as other classes, and these same problems arise in almost every single MMO that puts in a Hot/Dot based class. Unfortunately, Turbines decisions on the RKs Hots/Dots implemented them in ways that exaggerate the already strong liabilities of hots/dots over instant heals/dps - this was okay when the RK came out in Moria expansion, but the basic class design predicated on Casting Inductions on Over Time DPS/HPS (with very low utility) is not at all current to the state of the game. If your kin is competitive, they will likely want the "best" at whatever the slot is, and RK currently fills NONE of those slots.
The RK is designed to function well at either dps OR ae dps OR healing, at the exclusion of the other. To do them all you will need SIX LIs. If you dont like looking at the undyable satchel on your hip (it is always viridian green), you will need to save your original Satchel, leaving you just 1 LI slot free IF you paid $$ for ALL the extra LI slots!!!
What the RK is currently strongest amongst it's strengths and weaknesses, is AE dps *IF* you can stand still some and you are well set on Fire-based LIs/gear. The Draigoch suit 5/5 bonus is what makes this competitive and gives the RK some desirability in this role. However, if you really love AE dps, you should make a Champ - because champs AE dps is just as good and they can do it on the move with incredi-more mitigation and less dependency/risk to the Minstrels.
If you want single target DPS, you should definitely consider Burglar or Hunter instead. Now the RKs lightning dps is not terrible by any means, but it is simply disgusting how inferior it is compared to a Burglar or Hunter, and nobody in their right mind (who picks for min/max) would pick you over a burglar or hunter for this role. Both of those classes pump out crazy damage right out the gate, while you are using 5 ###### spells before you even unlock the decent ones. Whereas a hunter will have killed the entire T2 fanghorn pull of 4-5 tough elites in the time you cast those 5 spells, or faster - he doesnt need 4LIs to do great AE, and he can do it fast - single or AE.
For healing you are still a good healer on 1-3 targets, and you are a fair choice for 3man groups/instances, but I would still choose a Minstrel if I wanted the best. Once you get to 4-6 players the Minstrel shuts you out and it's a no-brainer. In raids you are absolutely unarguably an inferior healer to the minstrel. There are many reasons why:
1) Utility. The minstrel has a dps traitline, a heal traitline, and a buff traitline. A yellow (buff) traitline Minstrel heals 90+% as well as a Blue-line minstrel, but brings AMAZING buffs to the group. Most of the blue-line traits are things you dont regularly need or use, so a yellow-line minstrel still has 2/3 of the best blue-line traits.
The RKs utility is very poor. It amounts to 'Do Not Fall to X', which is nice, but if you think theyd take that over what a Minstrel brings - keep dreaming big. The RK has no incombat rez, a Minstrel does. The RK has a rez you have to put on someone BEFORE they die - and if things are so bad people are dying you either: are stressed and not thinking as clearly as you otherwise would and so do not use it, too much going on (cause people are dying), too slow to use it, they died very quickly, forgot to use it, picked the wrong person... or worst of all - combat ended (ala Draigoch flew up) and the Rez-if-you-die buff went away because you went out of combat, but you are still on cooldown.
The Minstrel can just rez the person who died and *never* screw it up. Cooldown is pretty much the same.
2) Instant reaction/flexibility. The minstrel has a lot of instant reaction heal skills - more and superior to the RK. The minstrel is a far more flexible healer because they do not heal based on anticipation (and hence possibly incorrectly) but simply react to what is present. Their skills are designed to react to what is present.
3) Waste. HoTs/DoTs are by nature wasteful. They do not 'hold' on a target at full health, and then tic again when they are hurt. They just keep ticking away wasting the heal/mana and opportunity cost you paid to use that skill. Since you are an induction based-healer, healing someone with a hot and a minstrel then 'tops them off' means you wasted that induction and that mana. The minstrel did not - the target was healed by them and fully - preparing the group sooner for trouble.
3) Mitigation. It is extremely important a healer stay alive, and be able to save themselves quickly and easily. A Minstrel does this very very fast, at any moment from the pull to the end. A Minstrel gets a shield, too. They have a self bubble they can use anytime - the RKs only works at high levels of healing-attunement - and is group usable so it is selfish to just save it for yourself when a minstrel has a self-one and a group-member-one. Also RKs have poor health. It's mostly how the gear is built, but RKs are just low on health. They can't handle spikes, and they die to repeat spikes. A Minstrel better handles spikes (more health, more saves, more mitigation (buffs too), and multiple instant anytime self saves), and a Minstrel can survive multiple spikes while being tossed through the air. An RK can hardly handle 1 spike, because if they are in DPS they have almost no saves (a misntrels saves still work in dps mode), and if they are in healing they need a lot of time to 'fix' the damage.
In the moors due to Creeps being able to get out of any CC light-armour classes are at great risk. The class needs to be able to heal/save itself while DPSing. The RK cannot do this, it either heals or it DPS's and it needs time to switch. RKs are currently 'extremely easy meat' even considering how OP freeps are.
Content:
Turbine is implementing content with lots of burst damage and surprises. ToO is some of the hardest content they have ever put in game. The RK is designed for very slow-and-steady content due to all if its: inductions, lack of saves, hot/dot design. The very design of the class is currently limiting its competitive usefulness in raids.
Turbine:
Turbine currently thinks the class is okay, but has mentioned the possibility of nerfing the ability that makes AE fire dps competitive. This is a very strong reason to overlook this lackluster but very fun class.
So in short, you pick an RK because the RK is innately a very fun class to play. I enjoy healing on it VERY much, it's just not as good as anything else at that role. In healing it is horribly based almost entirely on inductions, has tiny utility, it is not as flexible, it reacts slowly, it saves it self poorly, dies easily, and wastes time playing with attunement or building it up. These liabilities ADD UP, and the minstrel has literally none of those liabilities. The dps is a little boring, just as exciting as a Minstrel in WS (vs RK lightning), but again you are very fragile and hence burden the group for what you bring - and fire dps is quite boring if you are using the 5/5 Draigoch suit, but you'd be a dunderhead if you didn't because there would then be no reason at all to bring you along over someone else.
The best effective way to play the RK currently is like a Captain, unless your group wants you pure non-stop fire (which means you spam the heck out of 1 skill ad nauseum - and only until this ability or 5/5 set is downward adjusted then you've got nothing). You keep the Writs toggle up and you use a keyboard/mouse that swaps your 4 LIs easily so you can heal/dps at the same time. You can either lean healing with dps, or do dps with healing. Adding in the writs really helps bring up healing-while-dps or dps-while healing. In pure roles there are better choices for everything in most content since most content requires movement and has lots of spike damage (which the RK sucks at both of) But again with the captain role, another class does this role better, and again, the RK brings almost no utility.
Pick it if it's fun, or you aren't into competitive groups. Otherwise, don't pick it. You'll work your tail off on six LIs each content update, just to be overlooked because someone else can 'bring it' and no matter how great a player you are you are simply too hamstrung on the RK to do so as well.
Very low utility + slow inductions + delays from attunement + DoT/HoT mechanic + low mitigation + low health + Turbine thinks its golden = liability with no hope (cause it would take a functional revamp on class).
But it IS FUN to play. Thats why I still log mine in and update its gear. Well, that and it's my cook =P
The one thing that makes the RK stand out from others, is the ability to play two roles in a single group. DPS-wise the RK runs at the top, healing wise it can stand up to a mini, provided you have a well balanced group and you're not in a raid (although top notch RK's will argue about that).
The best feature is that the RK is able to provide support healing if needed, while the RK is recruited for the DPS role, or vice versa. Bring a RK, bring two roles to a group. In a group there is little issue with the squishiness of the class. If the group plays well, the RK will draw no (or very little) aggro, with good means to drop that.
Solo it is a hugely fun class, zapping thru mobs. Of course there are tactics and some things are more difficult than others (I have issues with all the follow and protect quests for instance), but I've solo-ed many higher level quests, which other classes 5 levels higher than me could not solo. Again, the combination of DPS and self-heals and some kiting will get you thru many difficult quests and you'll burn thru your levels easily.
I can certainly hold my own, against any class, but it isn't called an advanced class for nothing...
People have already responded well, but to add my experiences: Right now minstrels are considered the better healers, but RKs perform both the healing and dps roles well enough for anything the typical player encounters. My RK has been turned down from a PuG as healer only once, and that was back in SoM. My minnie has been turned down from PuGs as dps much more often. (The RK has been turned down as DPS only if a champ's AoE, hunter's poison removal or burglar's FMs would be good to the point of almost necessary due to fight mechanics.) Even at T2 raid level (at which I am not), the consensus seems to be that healing difference is smaller than the warden/guardian divide in tanking. Also, the situation has been reversed and may well be again after some tweaks or nerfs.
I'd recommend you to try it. If you like it and make it to 75, there will be a place for you in instances and raids. Leaders passing you for a minstrel or hunter are the same ones who would pass their hunter-friend for a fourth champion if the fight slightly favored melee damage, but most of us don't play or want to play at that level (not that there was anything wrong with it).
Originally Posted by L_Loomis
If you dont like looking at the undyable satchel on your hip (it is always viridian green), you will need to save your original Satchel, leaving you just 1 LI slot free IF you paid $$ for ALL the extra LI slots!
Actually the satchel is dyable; it doesn't show in the dressing room, but you can dye it. Also, you can put the original satchel in your wardrobe and equip it cosmetically from there if needed.
Last edited by Stonecrop; Jan 10 2012 at 06:54 AM.
The best feature is that the RK is able to provide support healing if needed, while the RK is recruited for the DPS role, or vice versa. Bring a RK, bring two roles to a group. In a group there is little issue with the squishiness of the class. If the group plays well, the RK will draw no (or very little) aggro, with good means to drop that.
This happens so few times along one raiding life, that really you shouldn´t even tell it. There is not a single time in all my raiding life that i have saved the raid for turning down to healing while i was DPSing. Or any RK i have seen, for the matter.
Also, the RK draws aggro, period. Specially if you start strong on a trash pull with iEoF. A good (bad?) hunter will outaggro even easier but RKs can easily draw aggro.
Also featuring: Saril, lvl 75 Human Loremaster, Dirgations lvl 75 Human Champion.
Phoenix Legion kin, Laurelin Server.
There is not a single time in all my raiding life that i have saved the raid for turning down to healing while i was DPSing.
Yet there is more to LOTRO than just raiding, at least for some people. There have been many times, outside of raids, I have been able to save the day (so to speak) by switching to healing.
Originally Posted by Bradegor
Also, the RK draws aggro, period. Specially if you start strong on a trash pull with iEoF. A good (bad?) hunter will outaggro even easier but RKs can easily draw aggro.
IF the group plays well, there should be little issue with it.
My main was/is a minstrel and after leveling him to 51 I have decided that they're just a bit too easy to play with and don't have a system that I find to be that interesting (in comparison to gambits and attunement.)
I quoted this for a specific reason, that reason is that most of the toons are "easy to play with" LOTRO is by no means a hard game. End game? bit different not so simple, nor is the moors. If your playing just the PvE/epic story line you can roll any toon and not have to much of a problem. I mean you will die a few times (you'll find here on the RK forum, that notion to be absolutely unacceptable) but overall the RK is a diverse toon that can heal any content in the game and DPS any content in the game.
They compare just fine, and hold themselves well. Remember on a macro level all of the toons are fine and can handle the game, once you delve further into end game play you will see differences and the RK weaknesses begin to present themselves (the strenghts will be evident as well). This is the point where a lot of RK's begin to whine, others find it a challenge.
Roll an RK, it's a fun toon to play. Dont get to caught up in dramatics or the breadth of comparatives from other people, often you'll find them to be jaded and not very informative at all, rather redundant actually.
So I've just changed servers and am thinking of playing a runekeeper -the concept of damage and healing is a very tempting one- however I don't want a repeat of my poor warden (fun class but considerably out classed by the guardian in my experience, also saw a lot of other wardens on the forum that tended to agree). My main was/is a minstrel and after leveling him to 51 I have decided that they're just a bit too easy to play with and don't have a system that I find to be that interesting (in comparison to gambits and attunement.)
Therefore -having read my life history - my question is just simply how does the rk compare to other classes's currently? Once I reach 75 sometime in the future will I find that I won't be able to fulfil my job correctly (either healing or dps) -like the warden seems to be suffering from- and be passed over in raids for some other class (such as a mini or hunter)? Or is the rk perfectly balanced and fine? Or in your opinion are they OP (like minstrels seem to be).
I'm sorry if you're asked this question a billion times, but I'd really like to just find a class that I can settle down with and call my main, having just played through most of them to test them I would really just like to rest and play! (I've attempted warden, mini, burg , champ, hunter, a bit of rk in the past and recently guard. The other's don't particularly interest me).
The attunement system is not really all that complicated compared to gambits. Warden is very very hard to play and rewarding for those who like a challenge. RK is very easy and very powerful. It can heal raid level content but is not as good as a mini because the mini has better emergency buttons. Raids have a lot of "everyone takes 7000 damage NOW" events and a mini can fix that a lot better than a RK because the mini has some powerful group wide heals and we have long cooldown, weak group healing. Our damage is quite good and certainly acceptable in any group.
Attunement is like the gating of other classes. A guard has to parry to use big skills, a burg has to crit, mobs have to die for a captain or champ, and so on. RK attunement mimics this: you have to use several weak skills before the big ones open up for use, but once you did that one time in a long fight, its done, blast away with impunity (or heal). Attunement prevents damage and healing at the same time, you do one or the other, so its really just a simple skill gating + skill lockout system, with a little bit of complexity in that you can swap from healing to damage or damage to healing if you must. That is as difficult as it gets, knowing to use the 5 or so skills that pull your attunement from one side to the other, and really you only do that once in a while to heal if the healer died, its very rare to swap from healing to damage or damage to healing outside of an "emergency" or it can be a useful strategy for very small groups like 2 man questing or skirmishing etc.
Balanced? Nothing in this game is really balanced. We do a lot of damage and can heal very well. Healing can take some time to learn, it is not as easy as blowing things up. We are easily killed. All damage is overpowered since isen, so in that sense we are OP right now. Its as balanced as it gets, I guess, OP damage and super squishy with a side of "about right" heals (if you consider that mini healing is a touch OP).
Draegon:
"stack all the morale you want but dont come on here wonderin why you aint hittin hard! "
There's been a lot of posting in here regarding RK effectiveness that is done from the aspect of people who have dabbled in a RK but have apparently have never put some serious effort into the class.
So, to dispel a couple of myths and perhaps provide some more encouragement...
1. They are not strictly or even primarily DoT damage. This may have been true when the Moria content was fresh and new, and they certainly do have some DoT skills that are quite effective, but IMO the most powerful RK build I've come across so far is 15% or greater critical, traited 5 yellow, 2 red. Burst damage with heavy critical chances and targets drop obscenely fast. In sub-par 75 gear I regularly crit 5k+ on normals with epic conclusion, and average 400-1k each hit with ceaseless argument. Helping kinnies with Grand Stair runs, I frequently end up circle tanking Igash as my damage _massively_ exceeds anything an average 75 Champ can put out and is enough to pull him off a 75 Guard with surprising frequency (poor guard play? possibly...).
Great opening string is Improved essay of fire, pop 5 traited fiery ridicules while the induction time is 0, and finish up with a few fury of storm skills... damage for the string is between 9 and 16k depending on how the criticals roll and you can kite for the last few shots if needed. RK's can also fire on the run for several skills because of no induction time, and this is extremely handy in some cases, particularly if you have a mob chasing you, or if you're trying to avoid environmental damage and still DPS.
2. RK's excel at single target healing and tend to suffer at group heals. This is true unfortunately, but the other part of this truth is that you _must_ get a separate set of LI's if you want to heal effectively. Bump the legacies, trait 7 blue 1 red deep, and then start launching off the heals. RK's can group heal (improved rousing words, etc) but it's not as powerful as a mini. However, stack mending verse x4, prelude to hope, writ of health x3 on a tank and then start firing in traited epic for the ages and you've got a very strong healing base, with a few bubbles you can add in, and you can rez them if you have the foresight to apply the trait. I've solo healed turtle raids with no deaths in either group, and while this isn't top game content, considering the damage spread and stacking DoT's, it speaks well for the healing possibilities of a RK.
3. Don't let other people tell you how to play a class I'm loving my RK at 75... he's squishy, but someone compared them to a glass cannon once. Can't take many hits, but watch out if you're on the business end
Someone above said mini healing is a touch OP...??? I guess theyve knocked down some ToO t2 then eh? Hows that Saruman t2 going with those OP heals?
This content is hard guys. If you cant heal it with a Minnie why would you bring a slower, more fragile, needs-omniscience-to-heal-as-well-as-a-reactionary-healer, takes-a-long-time-to-heal-someone-up healer that brings no rez worth having and baby-sized utility?
Seriously the HoT/DoT mechanic should have been no-induction and the reactionary Minstrel-style heals should be induction based. It makes WAY more sense that way.
Someone above said mini healing is a touch OP...??? I guess theyve knocked down some ToO t2 then eh? Hows that Saruman t2 going with those OP heals?
This content is hard guys. If you cant heal it with a Minnie why would you bring a slower, more fragile, needs-omniscience-to-heal-as-well-as-a-reactionary-healer, takes-a-long-time-to-heal-someone-up healer that brings no rez worth having and baby-sized utility?
Seriously the HoT/DoT mechanic should have been no-induction and the reactionary Minstrel-style heals should be induction based. It makes WAY more sense that way.
That implies that the reason people fail TOO T2 is because they did not have enough healing. I would argue that most likely, in 99 out of 100 attempts, the fight is not being lost due to a simple lack of healing. It is being lost due to mistakes made -- either a failed strategy or failed execution of a good strategy. No, we have not beat it yet, have only had 1 or 2 tries at it due to losing a ton of people to star wars. NEITHER healer classes (or anyone else!) should be rooted in place with inductions, period, too much of the content requires running around for that nonsense.
Yes, I said mini healing is borderline OP, but I also noted that damage is currently a touch high across the board as well. These observations are based off the typical health of a typical player and typical enemy, not raid bosses. The raid is important, but it is not the whole of the game --- having damage and healing very high while general health is relatively low in a world with many classes and many small group activities makes for an imbalance. Take the new 3 man instances.... it is very difficult for a casual player who has no dragon armor to do those, then throw in an off class (say a champ tank or LM dps or whatever) and it becomes nearly impossible when you consider these players may not be grandmaster uberskilled TOO TVII defeating gods. It is very hard for them because the fights are scaled to *require* the very powerful healing that ultra geared minis can produce, the ultra powerful dps that well made dps classes can produce, and the abuse taking skills that well geared tanks can supply. Without those things, even simple and easy content becomes brutal. I say it again: outgoing damage (player and mob alike) and healing are out of balance a bit right now.
Draegon:
"stack all the morale you want but dont come on here wonderin why you aint hittin hard! "
Take the new 3 man instances.... it is very difficult for a casual player who has no dragon armor to do those, then throw in an off class (say a champ tank or LM dps or whatever) and it becomes nearly impossible when you consider these players may not be grandmaster uberskilled TOO TVII defeating gods. It is very hard for them because the fights are scaled to *require* the very powerful healing that ultra geared minis can produce, the ultra powerful dps that well made dps classes can produce, and the abuse taking skills that well geared tanks can supply. Without those things, even simple and easy content becomes brutal. I say it again: outgoing damage (player and mob alike) and healing are out of balance a bit right now.
Horsecrap. I've done all 3 as an RK healer (without a stitch of dragon gear yet) and had a cappy tanking, a champ tanking, and even a hunter tanking the one fangorn run and succeeded every time. You do _not_ need a mini, or dragon gear, or even need to be uberskilled. You need a basic understanding of how each instance works and a good grasp on your character. I'll grant heavy dps is kinda nice on some of them, but a decently traited RK well played is more than sufficient to heal the 3 man Isengard instances.
Horsecrap. I've done all 3 as an RK healer (without a stitch of dragon gear yet) and had a cappy tanking, a champ tanking, and even a hunter tanking the one fangorn run and succeeded every time. You do _not_ need a mini, or dragon gear, or even need to be uberskilled. You need a basic understanding of how each instance works and a good grasp on your character. I'll grant heavy dps is kinda nice on some of them, but a decently traited RK well played is more than sufficient to heal the 3 man Isengard instances.
You are able to keep up a 6-7k morale champ tank who is wearing quested, crafted, and similar quality gear as a rk healer in these instances and no one dies in the run, its as smooth and as easy as a TOO or dragon geared guard/champ/mini group? Impressive. You are a better healer than I am, then, by leaps and bounds. I have yet to have a smooth run with a tank that had under 10k morale, which is not uncommon for champs who lack raid gear.
Draegon:
"stack all the morale you want but dont come on here wonderin why you aint hittin hard! "
You are able to keep up a 6-7k morale champ tank who is wearing quested, crafted, and similar quality gear as a rk healer in these instances and no one dies in the run, its as smooth and as easy as a TOO or dragon geared guard/champ/mini group? Impressive. You are a better healer than I am, then, by leaps and bounds. I have yet to have a smooth run with a tank that had under 10k morale, which is not uncommon for champs who lack raid gear.
99% of champs don't know how to tank, that is simple fact.
Pick it if it's fun, or you aren't into competitive groups. Otherwise, don't pick it.
Very low utility + slow inductions + delays from attunement + DoT/HoT mechanic + low mitigation + low health + Turbine thinks its golden = liability with no hope (cause it would take a functional revamp on class).
But it IS FUN to play. Thats why I still log mine in and update its gear. Well, that and it's my cook =P
Yeah, pretty much this. Unlike most classes, there is nothing an RK can do that another class can't do better (except if you somehow have to have ranged AoE). However, if your kinship isn't all that hardcore, you can hold your own in the DPS department, and make a only somewhat substandard healer if there aren't enough minstrels.
It's a damn shame that constant nerfing has brough us to this position, though, and an even more damned shame that our developer doesn't seem to recognize this sad state of affairs.
The God mode days of Rune keepsers are over. Pre ROI, I used to be-able to jump in the middle of 4 black arrows or wargs for that matter (pvp) and wax em all. Now I'm lucky if I can get 1 down in that situation. The realative mitigations back then were way stronger for the RK. For heck's sake I even tanked Cargraf (chick twin boss in BG) twice on Hardmode back in the Mirkwood hood. Those days are gone. These days I stack my tactical mitigation at the max 40% and I still go squish when all them grims (</3 shadow grim) jump on me during the Fire and Ice boss fight T2 in the orthanc raid. I would like to see our class rewarded for those who stack their mits and attempt to make themselves more survivable. Instead, It seems I drop just as quickly with 9k tact mit rating as compared to the avg RK at 4-6k tact mit rating. I'm still trying to parse these numbers out but the research is looking bleak.
OK folks I've said what I had to say and am done QQ.
Therefore -having read my life history - my question is just simply how does the rk compare to other classes's currently? Once I reach 75 sometime in the future will I find that I won't be able to fulfil my job correctly (either healing or dps) -like the warden seems to be suffering from- and be passed over in raids for some other class (such as a mini or hunter)? Or is the rk perfectly balanced and fine? Or in your opinion are they OP (like minstrels seem to be).
I think "mediocre" sums it up fairly well. RKs aren't outright broken in the ways Wardens are, but they're probably the second weakest class in the game currently. No-one in their right mind will take you as a healer over a Minstrel, and while your DPS output is decent, it also comes with extreme fragility. There's really nothing that you're particularly good at, nothing that will make people say, "Wow, I'm sure glad we have an RK in the group!"
However, on a slight upside, people can't usually assemble their "dream teams" for groups, so you can often get a position as DPS anyway, or even as healer if there's a Minstrel shortage.
In summary, things are a bit bleak, but you'll be able to play your character in groups without dragging them down too much.
RKs are still both healing and dpsing in Tower of Orthanc raids both T1 and T2, so don't let the 'omg RKs are broken and you'll never get a raid spot' crowd discourage you too much. Yes there are some difficulties, and the number of RKs taken on raids has definitely decreased from OD days, but it is hardly as dire as some would have you believe. I looked at some of the numbers in this thread, and while it doesn't prove anything definitively, it does show that RKs are successfully participating in current raids.
Healing is not as easy as with a mini because there are a lot of fights with significant AoE group damage and spike damage, and while it has gotten much easier to handle group damage than previously (due to Improved Rousing Words, may those who decided on the skill name be cursed forever), but still have few tools for spike damage particularly when it hits more than just one person. Many of minis' weaknesses were addressed in recent updates though, and they have the ability to buff the group while healing, so they are now more strongly preferred than previously.
For DPS, again if you look at the numbers in first clears (where kins are likely to be the most picky about class composition, though also likely to choose the player they know is good rather than one they know is only okay on a more optimal class), RKs are still raiding, but are given fewer spots than hunters or champs. Some say RKs easily equal or maybe out dps hunters for single target, and are competitive with champs in situations where there are 2-3 mobs. We don't really have the tools to measure, but survivability is definitely much less than either hunters or champs.
For proof of the viability of the RK in raids, there is a nice video of Shadow Tier 2, one of the harder fights in the current raid cluster, beaten with one RK and one mini healing, 2 RKs, 1 hunter, and 2 champs dpsing. You can find it here. They also have two LMs, so breaking lots of common 'rules' about class composition.
I don't think you are even going to get exact balance between classes. Ideally, each class brings certain advantages to a raid, which will cause some fights to favor one of the classes and another the other (let's say minis vs RKs, or between hunters/champs/rks). It is a bit off right now for healing, but arguably may be closer for dps were survivability not such an issue.
For proof of the viability of the RK in raids, there is a nice video of Shadow Tier 2, one of the harder fights in the current raid cluster, beaten with one RK and one mini healing, 2 RKs, 1 hunter, and 2 champs dpsing. You can find it here. They also have two LMs, so breaking lots of common 'rules' about class composition.
As one of the RKs mentioned there , i could say something.
First, Shadow is a fight for ranged DPS. We´re a "small" raidforce and many members (me included) can´t raid everyday, so our composition varies. Many days we cannot choose: we just get what we find. Most of us have many alts, and in fact there are only two "main" RKs in the raidforce, but we have several players with RK alts.
If one of our 2 other minstrels would appear, we would probably roll for a spot ... as a DPS, and minstrels would stay as healers. What i mean, is that we rotate players and we don´t look for maximum efficiency as we´re a small raidforce and our players mostly come from pre RoI where RKs were not as squishy. We value players over classes. We have an awesome array of players who are very skilled. Note that we just have one guardian (apart from some guardian alts) and our offtank is always .... a champion. On a perfect world, maybe he would be another class (not in Shadow as champ tanks are probably the best ones for Shadow due superior DPS) but he´s a fantastic player and we´re used to play with him.
Again, examples are not always a test of how classes are doing. I don´t believe the RK is as good healer as a minstrel, and still i will try my best and will fare "fine" as a healer. Those are two different facts, and i can still believe RKs could use a bump despite what i or my raidforce could achieve.
Also featuring: Saril, lvl 75 Human Loremaster, Dirgations lvl 75 Human Champion.
Phoenix Legion kin, Laurelin Server.
I think your group is typical of most raiding groups in Lotro. I know we do not always have the classes or players on that we want, and we have to go with what we have available. And, I also totally agree there are some thing about RKs, particularly healing right now, that could use adjustment...but what I think your video also shows is that lotro raids are rarely if ever built so that there is only one class composition that can manage to bring the boss down. In many cases you can use different strategies based on the strengths and weaknesses of the group. So to the OP's original question, which was when I get to 75, will I be able to fulfil my roles and will I get a raid spot, the answer is, if he is a good player, yes, there will be a role for an RK. Will it be harder to get a spot for raids than if he had a mini, also yes.
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- my question is just simply how does the rk compare to other classes's currently? Once I reach 75 sometime in the future will I find that I won't be able to fulfil my job correctly (either healing or dps) -like the warden seems to be suffering from- and be passed over in raids for some other class (such as a mini or hunter)? Or is the rk perfectly balanced and fine? Or in your opinion are they OP (like minstrels seem to be). 
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Originally Posted by L_Loomis
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