Thread: Tier 7 Stat tomes

To Lestache:

Thanks for the explanation.

T1 is perfect for the kinship that prefers to experience the raid without grinding to equip everyone.

This is what I expected. It was more T2 and/or higher that I was thinking about. Access to T1 gear, if it takes a lot of grinding, may be the thing a casual guild wishes to skip once they learned how to run it. So that the kinship can play causally and still experience T2, till they beat it. I really doubt Turbine will ever put raid gear in the store. Even if they do, there should be a requirement that the individual has beaten a certain tier so players will still need to do the progression.

Back to the main point of this thread. I stand by having stat tombs in the store. My level 48 is still in level 38 jewelry and level 41 gear. Buying the tombs helped so maybe I won't have to feel bad about trying to tank for a level 48 instanced group. Prayers. Actually the only time I join the groups is when I get a tell from someone. Figure they must be desperate to send me tell when I was not even LFG, and they were not in my zone.

And I am sure I am not the only one. Seen other casual players in worse gear than me. As an ex-raider, I do check people's gear for fun.

Originally Posted by Perenth

You seemed to not read my posts. I stated explicitly I would like to raid with my friends. And I am not here to impress people. So what do I care if people are impressed or not? This is a game for fun. Funny to you it is one to impress people. Well, that is to be expected. It is your play style. So play with your friends, who will be impressed by you.
See my post above. I like slow progression and journey. Whether you like it or not, the gaming industry is changing. It is starting to cater to casual play style.
It's not about gear. It's about experiencing challenges and defeat in a raid instanced. Many casual players may prefer to do it without mega grind. In fact, this can open up a big revenue for Turbine in selling gear adequate enough for people for a casual guild to defeat a lower tier raid, then instead of everyone grinding for gear, the whole kinship can buy tier 1 raid gear and move on to tier 2 raid for fun.
I spend not nearly as much as you think. Reading this forum there were people who cited much larger figures. Been thinking to myself this is why Turbine did so great in 2011. If they were to base their revenue on me haha, fail. I do not support farmers. In fact, having been used by some farmers who pretended they were friends and fooled me into a nightly group with them in EQ to farm was why I support a store. I want to knock farmers out of games. It is way better to support a store funding the gaming company than farmers.
No way Jose. Now see how insulting it is for you to jump to all these questions? It shows you have no idea on what is really happening. But it's ok, at least you are honest and friendly sounding.

I'm not trying to be insulting but I'm having a hard time trying to wrap my mind around your perspective.

I used to raid 5 days a week in another mmo. To put it in simple terms, to me raiding was 1/3rd challenge, 1/3rd excitement, and 1/3rd socializing. The challenge was going in there without the best gear on any of us and persevering. As we geared up, the raid got a little easier every week. It was nice to see everyone progress as a team. The excitement was seeing that piece of gear you've been waiting for finally drop and it gets handed to you. And the final 1/3rd is raiding with people you enjoy spending time with.

To simply buy the best gear there is eliminates 2/3rds of the reason most people even raid for to begin with. That leaves spending time with in game friends and I'm sorry but your excuse still doesn't make sense to me. Why do you need to be in an actual raid with them to do that? There came a point in my life where I no longer had time to raid anymore either. So I would just socialize with the people in the guild during off time and did small instances with them instead.

Where is the challenge going into a raid with the best gear already? Is the challenge just to make sure no one messes up and wipes the raid? There is a reason why guilds say they have something on farm status. It means that the content is no longer challenging to them in part because they are geared up with the best loot from there. They just farm it to gear up new recruits or alts. So I'm not getting the challenge argument at all.

One final thing. You completely avoided my question about gold. Since you think it is ok for just about anything and everything up to and including raid gear to be sold in the store, what about gold? Have you/Do you buy gold in this or other mmos? Do you think they should also sell gold in the store? If not, why not? What is the difference to you? I'm curious to know.

Originally Posted by mjk47

Does my obtaining them by some other in-game method (or even from the store) detract in any way from the achievement of those who obtained them "the hard way"? My answer would be a resounding "No".

I generally loathe the "steroids in sports" analogy. But with a few tweaks, I think it may be apt here.

Some folks would stop wanting to play the game if everyone could just buy the rewards for the same reason I wouldn't want to be a baseball player in a league where everyone was using steroids. At some point, I'd either need to use steroids myself to not be a "lesser player" or just relegate myself to being a second class player. . . and all because something that has nothing to do with the game itself is now acting as an external/alien influence on it.

Some might point out that baseball is a competitive sport and that LotRO does not feature direct competition between players. To that I would respond: Well, I wouldn't want to be on a team where my own teammates used steroids. Does the steroid use on the part of my teammates actually have a direct effect on me? Aren't I still hitting just as many home runs and achieving my own things? Of course, the answer is yes. But in a league or team of steroid users, my own abilities and even achievements are indeed lessened relative to my fellow players.

And the same can be said of stat tomes or any other outside-of-game purchases that enhance player abilities directly. Especially if they are in the store exclusively

To feel undermined by someone gaining the same visible reward by another means seems to me to betray a degree of insecurity, as if external validation is needed in addition to the internal knowledge.

Were I to be a bit more exquisitely sensitive, I might accuse you of calling names and/or slandering me and my motivation.

This has been a debate of high quality, and maintaining it is not easy. . .

It most certainly is not easy. And I fear we're coming off the rails. I'm likely to disappear for a while so that I might actually enjoy my night.

--H

Originally Posted by Perenth

To Lestache:

Thanks for the explanation.



This is what I expected. It was more T2 and/or higher that I was thinking about. Access to T1 gear, if it takes a lot of grinding, may be the thing a casual guild wishes to skip once they learned how to run it. So that the kinship can play causally and still experience T2, till they beat it. I really doubt Turbine will ever put raid gear in the store. Even if they do, there should be a requirement that the individual has beaten a certain tier so players will still need to do the progression.

At the risk of continuing the partial derail, are you hoping for a T2 that can also be completed with (for lack of a better word) inferior gear and traits? If this were the case, what would be the point of T1 then, since that's kind of what T1 is for. At the risk of misunderstand or misinterpreting you, it seems like you hope that even the most difficult content be tuned so that it can be beaten by the most casual of players (casual being your term, and I'm not interested in a "raiders" vs. "casual" discussion, since there are very few people who truly fit solely into one of those categories anyway). I'm just trying to understand what it is you're hoping for.

As I said earlier, even beating the raid on T1 gives you access to what is considered the "T2" raid armor. Heck, there are even some nice jewelry drops, as the loot tables seem to be fairly similar for both T1 and T2. So again, I'm not sure what you're getting at, sorry. :/

Sir Hurin, this is one of the most mind-boggling posts I have read recently. I'm going to bold all your insults, and words you put in my mouth or misunderstood as my position. Add up all the word count you used to insult me or misrepresent me. It is not worth my time to go through line by line.

I don't believe my discussion with you is worthy anymore. It's little wonder my post count is so low. Take care and I hope you will have fun. This game obviously does not mean as much to me as it does to you. I wish you well. The reason I posted in the first place is in trying to help you see stat tombs are not such a bad thing. Feel what you will.

I never really wanted to buy raid gear. Heh, think about it, I've been playing 19 months on this toon, and was here since launch, and 48 is my highest toon. What does that tell you? Yes, I am just a day dreamer who just like to follow the mmorpg models, and guess what the ultimate fun mmorpg might be like. I have too many ideas. Just thought about how the healer classes can be more fun. Stuff like that that is fun to me. Stuff like "you blah blah blah", "me blah blah blah" puts me to sleep. Look how many of those statements are in your latest post. Take care.

Originally Posted by Hurin

It appears to me that you're becoming exquisitely sensitive (despite your own rather harsh initial post in this thread) as your arguments come undone and your position becomes more and more untenable.

It is quite simply a bizarre contortion to point to people achieving things by playing the game and then damn them as somehow gaining some advantage over you. . . and then asserting that your inability to play as much as they do entitles you to be able to purchase outright whatever they earn through playing.

I find that a bizarre contortion. It is not "sliming" you. . . it's merely an accurate description of how I see that line of reasoning.

I don't think my $15 entitles me to stat tomes. I think stat tomes being stat tomes makes all players entitled to earn them through playing the game. If you don't see the distinction, then there's no hope of communicating productively with you.


Can't make heads or tails out of what that means. Where did I say that people can't skip a grind? As I've said time and time again, I don't have a problem with the vast majority of what the store sells. I haven't even taken issue with bypassing Virtue grinds, or even purchasing Virtues outright. But I think it is telling, however, that you now need to draw a (silly) false equivalence between my position that character stats/level/advancement should be earned through gameplay and me somehow demanding that nobody ever be able to "skip a grind." When someone runs out of ways to win an argument on the merits, they start arguing against what they wish someone was saying.


I think you're intentionally being vague here and just sort of railing in general now. . . because I can't figure out what "grind" you're now talking about. Any grind? If this is in keeping with your contention that everything should be sold in the store. . . then yes, I think it is "unworthy" of a game (not anyone in particular) to sell certain things.


If by "playing according to my standard" you mean actually playing to advance their character? Well, then, yes. I guess so. And you've failed to demonstrate why you're entitled to buy any and all advancement of your character rather than just earning it like everyone else (through playing the game).

But, that's not "my standard". . . it's just sorta common sense that you go to great pains to obfuscate and twist around until those who are playing the game as designed are "occupying it" and deriving "advantage" over those who would like to play it less but buy the rewards usually accrued by playing it more.


Those sentences were fine and make perfect sense. Here they are again: "No amount of money would entitle me to demand such things. Nor am I "denying" anyone anything whatsoever." They were in response to your assertion that someone like me must think that my $15 gives me the right to dictate the game's design and/or deny others "social fun" via raid content. They addressed both and in perfectly acceptable english. Your need to assert otherwise in such a petty way speaks volumes of where you're now left in your argument(s).


You are willfully missing the point here. As I said, if you had your way, people could buy everything in the game regardless of what they actually do in the game. Now, obviously, you have no problem with that for your own reasons. But you seem awfully unwilling to consider the other effects such a model would have despite great pains taken to point them out to you.


Why must you insist on making this about "worthiness" and other such loaded words designed to make this a hyperbolic, moralistic shouting match rather than letting your arguments stand on their own merits? You're just as "worthy" of playing the game and reaping the rewards of what you do within the game as anyone else. Where things fall apart is where you then leap to saying: "I played the game a certain way which puts certain things out of my reach. So I am entitled to buy them because I want them. But I don't want to earn them in the game. Gimme."

Were I to borrow your arguing style, I could just as easily say that you want the entire business model and the game itself redesigned to fit your idiosyncratic playstyle so that you can still explore "every valley" and give selflessly of yourself 200s at a time to your lower-level brethern and still never see any repurcussions from your playstyle choices. To sum up your argument: "Why can't I have all the rewards I want without even earning them? Just let me buy them! Here's my money!"


Wow. . . not even sure why you ask this here in the midst of the analogy. Again, bizarre.


Umm, you began the analogy with a hotel where people paid $15 to stay a month! And now you're bizarrely going all literal here? This and the other quote immediately above shows that you're just pedantically flailing about here and have lost any semblance of a cogent position or point.


See above. It's like you've just given up now and are just trying to be willfully obtuse in order to aggravate. Your original analogy had people just sitting there. My follow-up analogy directly contradicted that contention. But hey, don't let that stop you from just ignoring it and stating your original, addressed point.


Once again, you use loaded language like "rights". . . now you've invented some "right" to purchase all things in this game? And I am now refusing it to you?


I have read that four times. I still don't know how to respond to it. Except to say that when someone uses questionable logic, asserts false equivalencies, and engages in all sorts of other rhetorical contortions, I do not see it as "slanderous" to point such behavior out.


No, I did not forget that. But what you "like" is not the same thing as what you are entitled to have regardless of how you play the game. Your playstyle choices do (and should) have consequences. Otherwise, what's the point? And so help me, if you say that the point is to hang around with your buddies. . . you can do that outside of the content that you are allegedly withholding from yourself.


Not once have I "called you a name." I have characterized and scrutinized your arguments and some behavior. And where I wondered aloud if perhaps you were setting yourself up for some altruistic/bombastic/moralistic preening and bomb-throwing in lieu of continuing an argument that was not going well for you. . . well, I think this last post of yours vindicates my doing so.

You have a nice day too!

--H

Originally Posted by Sharachan

I do not know if somebody has comentet this...

Why would the raidleders have you in the raid? The buy to win characters are better than you, and will be even better in the future. You, with your gimped character is useless in a raid.

It has been some talk about not getting into raid because you arent geared for it. Why should it be different without storebought stats?

Why'd they have me in the raid? Because, beleive it or not, but this Turbine fanboi is quite charming. I've been in my kin for a long time. Although real-life tore us apart (jobs, wives, babies, ... basically we're growing old), we used to be very tight and we still are outside LotRO. Some of us had stat tomes, some of us hadn't. We couldn't care less about stats, skills, ... We had only one goal; to have fun together. And guess what... we had and we had plenty. Old and young alike. Skilled and "unskilled" alike. Well-geared, undergeared, it mattered not.
If your 'raidleader' cares more for stats than he does for attitude, you are in the wrong kin.

You are entitled to have fun you know. You have the power to switch kins, you have the power to not buy the stat tomes and be ok with it.
I can understand a certain reluctance towards the presence of the Store and I can agree to it, but people are taking this a bit far. People complain about the grind for a deed unlocked upon consuming what seems to be a zillion pots/pies/... You are not forced to complete that deed. Just like you do not need to buy those tomes to complete your raid.
Now if those raids were locked and the only way to gain entry was by purchasing the key in the Store, then you'd have a reason to be upset. But for some silly stat tomes??

Originally Posted by Vellem

I'm not trying to be insulting but I'm having a hard time trying to wrap my mind around your perspective.

Thank you.

I used to raid 5 days a week in another mmo. To put it in simple terms, to me raiding was 1/3rd challenge, 1/3rd excitement, and 1/3rd socializing. The challenge was going in there without the best gear on any of us and persevering. As we geared up, the raid got a little easier every week. It was nice to see everyone progress as a team. The excitement was seeing that piece of gear you've been waiting for finally drop and it gets handed to you. And the final 1/3rd is raiding with people you enjoy spending time with.

I am with you on challenge, excitement, socialization. I used to write raid strats in EQ. Would stay up all night figuring out how to defeat a mob. But over time our guild pretty much disintegrated when people did not have time to grind for gear. After we beat a target, it took a lot of grinding. People would drop out. Recruits need to be reflagged all over again. It killed casual raiding guilds.

To simply buy the best gear there is eliminates 2/3rds of the reason most people even raid for to begin with. That leaves spending time with in game friends and I'm sorry but your excuse still doesn't make sense to me. Why do you need to be in an actual raid with them to do that? There came a point in my life where I no longer had time to raid anymore either. So I would just socialize with the people in the guild during off time and did small instances with them instead.

I respect your view, and in fact most of my raider friends are like you. They are still toughing it out in EQ. But I am short on time and can no longer do that. As I said before, honestly we miss our friends. Someone else may call it "moralistic" blah blah. But it's a reality many people realize.

Where is the challenge going into a raid with the best gear already? Is the challenge just to make sure no one messes up and wipes the raid? There is a reason why guilds say they have something on farm status. It means that the content is no longer challenging to them in part because they are geared up with the best loot from there. They just farm it to gear up new recruits or alts. So I'm not getting the challenge argument at all.

When you go in to tier one raid, you are having to build up the force to do tier 2. Therein lies the grind. People got bored doing the same raid over and over again. I don't mind just spending some money and buying my gear so my raid friends who wish to earn it in game can earn theirs faster. Then we can all go to tier 2 to face challenges together. The problem is is they insist everyone needs to raid 50 times to gear up everyone in a raid force, many guilds had fallen apart over that grind.

One final thing. You completely avoided my question about gold. Since you think it is ok for just about anything and everything up to and including raid gear to be sold in the store, what about gold? Have you/Do you buy gold in this or other mmos? Do you think they should also sell gold in the store? If not, why not? What is the difference to you? I'm curious to know.

No I did not avoid your question. I specifically said I am against farmers. Where do you get gold? Farmers. I don't buy from them, nor support them. I do not think gold should be sold in the store. Gold is so easily earned through soloing. As far as I know or experienced, LOTRO does not require a lot of gold. If I had bought gold would I only have 5 gold to my name at level 48? lol. I can't even afford to buy a second rep mount even though I am kindred to elves now. Part of my slow grind atm is to get some gold to buy the elf rep mount.

Originally Posted by Perenth

I don't believe my discussion with you is worthy anymore.

This might have something to do with this. . .

I never really wanted to buy raid gear.

Contrasted with these. . .

Originally Posted by Perenth

I'd be happy if raid gear is sold in the store.

Originally Posted by Perenth

I would really like to see raid gear be available in the store to be fair.

Originally Posted by Perenth

I personally would prefer to see everything in game to be available in store, and vice versa.

Given that you said things that you now admit are not true, and that you never actually believed. . . well the discussion was bound to be "unworthy" in the most fundamental sense. Perhaps next time the discussion will be "worthy" if you actually say what you believe. Otherwise, you're just wasting everyone's time.

Look how many of those statements are in your latest post.

You mean statements that scrutinized and characterized your ever-unraveling defense of a position you now admit that you never actually held despite affirming it more than once?

There's a lot more to say about this latest post of yours and how it doesn't quite square with other aspects of what you've said prior. But at this point, I'm starting to feel like I'm just piling on.

So let's just go enjoy the game. What's left of it.

--H

Originally Posted by Cambruin

Why'd they have me in the raid? Because, beleive it or not, but this Turbine fanboi is quite charming. I've been in my kin for a long time. Although real-life tore us apart (jobs, wives, babies, ... basically we're growing old), we used to be very tight and we still are outside LotRO. Some of us had stat tomes, some of us hadn't. We couldn't care less about stats, skills, ... We had only one goal; to have fun together. And guess what... we had and we had plenty. Old and young alike. Skilled and "unskilled" alike. Well-geared, undergeared, it mattered not.

Good to read. I've been in the same boat. I would not care who used stat tomes, who did not. And would join such a kin of relaxed people. To have fun together. Unskilled players with good personalities and roleplaying skills can be the source of some terrific disasters and recovery. Makes it all the more sweet when we finally win.

Different strokes for different folks.

Originally Posted by Perenth

No I did not avoid your question. I specifically said I am against farmers. Where do you get gold? Farmers. I don't buy from them, nor support them. I do not think gold should be sold in the store. Gold is so easily earned through soloing. As far as I know or experienced, LOTRO does not require a lot of gold. If I had bought gold would I only have 5 gold to my name at level 48? lol. I can't even afford to buy a second rep mount even though I am kindred to elves now. Part of my slow grind atm is to get some gold to buy the elf rep mount.

He was also asking if you would have a problem with Turbine selling the gold. And he asking you such questions so pointedly because it's hard to reconcile being against gold selling while also being for the outright selling of everything in the store. Something you explicitly supported. But now oddly disavow.

So again, you've wasted his time too.

One wonders, at this point, whether to continue reading anything you say since you may just disavow it a page or two later. It's one thing to say that you have changed your mind. It's another to say: "Psych! I was just messin' with you guys! I don't believe that stuff! I hope you enjoyed spending the last several hours addressing what I said even though I never meant any of it!"

You know, in internet parlance, there's a word for that type of shenanigans.

--H

Wow it's even difficult to quote your post to show the extent. Again though this is all about "you blah blah". sigh. Lol.

Originally Posted by Hurin

This might have something to do with this. . .



Contrasted with these. . .





Given that you said things that you now admit are not true, and that you never actually believed. . . well the discussion was bound to be "unworthy" in the most fundamental sense. Perhaps next time the discussion will be "worthy" if you actually say what you believe. Otherwise, you're just wasting everyone's time.


You mean statements that scrutinized and characterized your ever-unraveling defense of a position you now admit that you never actually held despite affirming it more than once?

There's a lot more to say about this latest post of yours and how it doesn't quite square with other aspects of what you've said prior. But at this point, I'm starting to feel like I'm just piling on.

So let's just go enjoy the game. What's left of it.

--H

So now you are quoting words out of context.

"I never really wanted to buy raid gear."

means exactly what it says. I never really wanted to buy raid gear for myself because I see it taking years before I will even be at raid level. Remember? level 48 after starting in 2007, and I have 3 alts at level 42 to 44 I am working on too.

"I would really like to see raid gear be available in the store to be fair."

is when I think in general about the players who do not wish to play a marathon, but just want to experience part of the game, and lot of other reasons. Tried to address lots of those in the previous posts. In fact, I just responded to someone's post about kinship fun in raiding in general. As much as I love raiding, it's sort of in the background now. I enjoy talking about it. By hey, fond memories of hardcore days when I actually earned all my gear and saw guilds breaking apart.

"I personally would prefer to see everything in game to be available in store, and vice versa."

is the same deal as 2nd point above.

If you can not tell my personal situation versus my general concept in gaming direction, then it's too bad. But not a big deal for me. In the long run, the greater market force always win. Many times in the past mmorgps rose and fell. Starting with Ultima, and the list went on...

Oh well take care.

Originally Posted by Hurin

He was also asking if you would have a problem with Turbine selling the gold. And he asking you such questions so pointedly because it's hard to reconcile being against gold selling while also being for the outright selling of everything in the store. Something you explicitly supported. But now oddly disavow.

Gold selling = $ going to 3rd party farmers.

Store = $ going to developer.

If you don't see the difference,....

So again, you've wasted his time too.

One wonders, at this point, whether to continue reading anything you say since you may just disavow it a page or two later. It's one thing to say that you have changed your mind. It's another to say: "Psych! I was just messin' with you guys! I don't believe that stuff! I hope you enjoyed spending the last several hours addressing what I said even though I never meant any of it!"

You know, in internet parlance, there's a word for that type of shenanigans.

--H

Originally Posted by Perenth

If you can not tell my personal situation versus my general concept in gaming direction, then it's too bad. But not a big deal for me. In the long run, the greater market force always win. Many times in the past mmorgps rose and fell. Starting with Ultima, and the list went on...

Oh well take care.

Wow. That's all awfully convenient. So you either were disavowing a bad idea disingenuously (which I still think you were probably trying to do), or you are now standing by that bad idea. Whichever it is, you sure are correct that the conversation stopped being "worthy" a long time ago.

I will apologize, however, because I do see how it is actually possible for you to say "I really didn't want to buy raid stuff" and still be in favor of them being for sale. Though I find it unlikely that's what you meant given the context, I have to take you at your word. So (grrrr), I apologize for attributing meaning to words that you did not intend and whose meaning you have now clarified.

Originally Posted by Perenth

Gold selling = $ going to 3rd party farmers.

Store = $ going to developer.

If you don't see the difference,....

He explicitly also asked you to consider Turbine as the seller of the gold. Would you be in favor of gold selling then? If not, why not? Because being against the selling of gold while being in favor of everything in the game being for sale seems. . . hard to reconcile.

So, let me ask again on his behalf: Would you have a problem with Turbine selling gold? If so? Why, given that it's okay for them to sell everything else? Is selling gold as it currently takes place only a problem because the money doesn't go to Turbine!?! That's the only standard by which to judge whether something should be sold?

The sale (and buying!) of gold has always been seen as fundamentally wrong and destructive to the integrity of a game regardless of who profits (a 3rd party or the game studio). So your answer will be especially interesting.

--H

Originally Posted by Hurin

Wow. That's all awfully convenient. So you either were disavowing a bad idea disingenuously (which I still think you were probably trying to do), or you are now standing by that bad idea. Whichever it is, you sure are correct that the conversation stopped being "worthy" a long time ago.

I will apologize, however, because I do see how it is actually possible for you to say "I really didn't want to buy raid stuff" and still be in favor of them being for sale. Though I find it unlikely that's what you meant given the context, I have to take you at your word. So (grrrr), I apologize for attributing meaning to words that you did not intend and whose meaning you have now clarified.


He explicitly also asked you to consider Turbine as the seller of the gold. Would you be in favor of gold selling then? If not, why not? Because being against the selling of gold while being in favor of everything in the game being for sale seems. . . hard to reconcile.

So, let me ask again on his behalf: Would you have a problem with Turbine selling gold? If so? Why, given that it's okay for them to sell everything else? Is selling gold as it currently takes place only a problem because the money doesn't go to Turbine!?! That's the only standard by which to judge whether something should be sold?

--H

Thanks for your apology, but here is a bit more "you blah blah" in bold.

And you missed my words answering about the gold selling by Turbine and why. Perhaps if you scrutinize my post to him you can find it.

Originally Posted by Perenth

Thanks for your apology, but here is a bit more "you blah blah" in bold.

And you missed my words answering about the gold selling by Turbine and why. Perhaps if you scrutinize my post to him you can find it.

Well, I was trying to leave this thread alone but since you brought it up...I did have a question about that.

If I understood you correctly, (and please correct me if I misunderstood) you were against Turbine selling gold in their store because to you gold in this game is easy to acquire, but were in favor of them selling raid gear because it takes a lot of grinding and is tedious to get.

So, easy to get = doesn't need to be sold in the store
hard to get= sell it in store


It just sounds like laziness. Sorry, no other way to word it.

Originally Posted by Perenth

And you missed my words answering about the gold selling by Turbine and why. Perhaps if you scrutinize my post to him you can find it.

You don't think it should be available in the store merely because it is "easily earned through soloing?" But lots of things are easily earned through soloing. Many of the convenience items sold in the store in order to avoid grinds are "easily earned through soloing."

So I'm not sure why that should be a viable criteria by which to disqualify gold from the store given that you support literally everything else being in the store.

Indeed, though gold can be "easily earned through soloing," prices on the AH (where most gold is spent) takes that fact into account and prices are adjusted accordingly. So, while gold can be earned by soloing, it remains quite difficult to amass it in such quantities that the most desirable items on the AH become available to the "casual player" whom you champion.

So as someone who thinks all things should be sold in the store, it seems rather inconsistent of you to not support gold being sold there too.

--H

Originally Posted by Vellem

Well, I was trying to leave this thread alone but since you brought it up...I did have a question about that.

If I understood you correctly, (and please correct me if I misunderstood) you were against Turbine selling gold in their store because to you gold in this game is easy to acquire, but were in favor of them selling raid gear because it takes a lot of grinding and is tedious to get.

So, easy to get = doesn't need to be sold in the store
hard to get= sell it in store

Not exactly on "hard to get = sell it in store". I did suggest that even if raid gear were sold in the store, there should be a requirement of a player having defeated the tier to qualify for the purchase. And it can be hard to defeat a tier. hehe wipe wipe wipe.

Originally Posted by Hurin

So as someone who thinks all things should be sold in the store, it seems rather inconsistent of you to not support gold being sold there too.

--H

I was talking about everything that has been controversial since the store opened: rep mount, store mount, etc. imho should be available both in game and in store. Don't think gold was ever a big controversy back when the store opened.

Atm I would really like to see class mounts be available in game. To me that would make some fun end-game content for soloers. And those who don't wish to wait for end game before getting it may still buy it in the store.

But for class mount quests to happen, players need to let Turbine find other source of income from the end-game crowd. So raid gear may be one to put in the store to make up for the loss of class mount revenue.

I am chatting and have zero influence. And I really feel I am done here. Have fun!

Originally Posted by PerinStone

I'm sorry but I don't believe this ever happens. This is a worst case scenario about the evils of the tomes. With all of the choices in armour, jewelry, and traits you will never get 2 people with the same setup to be able to say that one person is wanteds in the raid and the other is staying at home because one bought tomes and the other didn't.

It happens all the time. I witnessed it tonight; raid leader had a choice between 4 champs on T2 Orthanc. Guess which one he took? The one with the highest stats.

Do we know that he used tomes? No, not really. But chances are he did, because you get a 70 point advantage in every stat.

Originally Posted by PerinStone

1. Relics that go to level 7 and require 2160 tier 1 relics to obtain (5 tier 1 for tier 2, x4x4x3x3x3) and get nothing back at reforges (unless you have a store only scroll)
2. Relics that go to level 10 and require 25000 tier 1 relics to obtain (5x5x5x5x5x2x2x2 (I think the last 2 levels only required 2 of the previous for a combine and you have to assume tier 10 would have required 2 as well) but you get the relics back when you reforge or deconstruct at max level

I will happily take scenario 1, even with the 195 TP store only scroll.

I'd gladly take option #2. I'd only have to grind once. I could happily slot the best relics in my 3rd age weapons until I get a 2nd age. Put my best relics in them without any extra grinding. Get a 1st age? simple, just decon and put the relics into the 1st age. Only have to grind once. Level cap increases and need new legendaries? Thats fine, grab a new legendary, level it up, decon my old and use the relics. Saves me loads of time if ya think about it.

...have a 2nd age but didn't quite get enough pool A legacies but is still better than the 3rd age? I'd gladly put my relics into it. Once I find a better 2nd age, I can put my relics into that without extra grinding.

One of the main reasons I don't play my alts: I MUST REGRIND ALL MY RELICS AGAIN. I had bunch of T8s on them too. Now they're all lost unless I pay2win. I'm not going regrind relics on toons I don't play often when I should already have the relics available. It's not even getting the relics thats hard, it's getting the SHARDS which is bs. Option 1 is awful. Option 2 is amazing.

Originally Posted by BBSoonerOU

Purchasing an additional 2 ring slots is already in game? So you're saying I can run around with 4 rings?

I don't think you understood much of what I said (making your responses quite confusing).

A bit of History: your post

Originally Posted by BBSoonerOU

The same could be said if they introduced an extra 2 ring slots that were only attainable from the store (which +70 to all your stats is essentially this).

Do you know trait, virtues slots wich are needed to boost you character with stats, resistances and skills?. They are locked.

To unlock them people have 2 options:
1:- pay real money for points or VIP time
2.- grind the points

So extra slots ARE already ingame. What we are discusing here is the concept not if the slot is a ring slot or a necklace slot.

So again: What's is the difference between paying 59US to get access to lvl 75 by quests and pay 59US for a +10 levels pocket item. There is no "p2w" conceptual differences.

What we have here is the old romantic idea that everything must be earned by knowledge, skills, and effort. Thats not correct, because is not the only factor.

Even in that "utopia", wich is actually "no store" for some people, real money, hardware, network stuff, real life, make the difference.

We all have our limits, even Turbine. So asking "what will happen IF turbine sells tomes +5k stat each what we have? p2w eh eh..." I tell you what we have: We have a falacy.

Originally Posted by Perenth

I never really wanted to buy raid gear. Heh, think about it, I've been playing 19 months on this toon, and was here since launch, and 48 is my highest toon. What does that tell you? Yes, I am just a day dreamer who just like to follow the mmorpg models, and guess what the ultimate fun mmorpg might be like. I have too many ideas. Just thought about how the healer classes can be more fun. Stuff like that that is fun to me. Stuff like "you blah blah blah", "me blah blah blah" puts me to sleep. Look how many of those statements are in your latest post. Take care.

You're arguing about something you have little to no knowledge about. Really?

example

Originally Posted by Perenth

Thank When you go in to tier one raid, you are having to build up the force to do tier 2. Therein lies the grind. People got bored doing the same raid over and over again. I don't mind just spending some money and buying my gear so my raid friends who wish to earn it in game can earn theirs faster. Then we can all go to tier 2 to face challenges together. The problem is is they insist everyone needs to raid 50 times to gear up everyone in a raid force, many guilds had fallen apart over that grind.

When our kin went into OD (level 65 raid, and at level 65), we strictly did T2. We didn't even mess with T1. I know a great deal of kins from various servers who were in the same boat as us.

For level 75 draigoch, I don't know any players (casuals, raiders, etc) who messed around with Draigoch on T1. They went straight to T2.

Same thing with Tower raid -- although a bit more mucky.

You say your highest toon is 48. Given your level and what you've said thus far in the thread, you know little to nothing about lotro and raiding.

Originally Posted by Perenth

Gold selling = $ going to 3rd party farmers.

Store = $ going to developer.

If you don't see the difference,....

3rd party farmers...they take your money and run.

Developers...they take your money and run.

What is the difference? I'm not seeing it

Originally Posted by Laerien

So extra slots ARE already ingame. What we are discusing here is the concept not if the slot is a ring slot or a necklace slot.

Trait slots were in the game years before F2P, unlocking only allows a player to catch up to someone who acquired the slots through other means. When someone unlocks a trait lot, they aren't paying to unlock something unavailable to others, they're paying to catch up to what others have.

These tomes are not designed to 'catch up' to what others have acquired through in-game means, they are designed to surpass anything available in-game. When the tomes are NOT reasonably available to those who advance their character through in-game means, the tomes are exactly like a set of store exclusive ring slots.

Of course now you're going to go back to "but we aren't competing against each other, so what do you care what others have". As a preemptive answer, I refer you back to my earlier posts in this thread, mainly those where I discuss what Fernando Paiz said about balancing content around tomes, and the rejections people are already seeing today due to not having maxed out tomes.

Originally Posted by Hurin

Were I to be a bit more exquisitely sensitive, I might accuse you of calling names and/or slandering me and my motivation.

It was intended as a perfectly general observation, but if the cap fits, ......

But seriously, I recognize that you are arguing a point of principle. Not one I tend to agree with, but sincerely held, and perfefctly valid. And indeed well argued.

Originally Posted by Hurin

It most certainly is not easy. And I fear we're coming off the rails. I'm likely to disappear for a while so that I might actually enjoy my night.

--H

Somehow I knew you wouldn't manage it. It was past midnight for me, so much easier to switch off!

Originally Posted by timmyloo22546

You're arguing about something you have little to no knowledge about. Really?

You are taking a suggestion made in a friendly chat as "arguing"? This is why I don't like forums. You can't see my big smiles. If we were standing in a game store chatting it would be easier.

example

When our kin went into OD (level 65 raid, and at level 65), we strictly did T2. We didn't even mess with T1. I know a great deal of kins from various servers who were in the same boat as us.

For level 75 draigoch, I don't know any players (casuals, raiders, etc) who messed around with Draigoch on T1. They went straight to T2.

Same thing with Tower raid -- although a bit more mucky.

You say your highest toon is 48. Given your level and what you've said thus far in the thread, you know little to nothing about lotro and raiding.

Afraid you misunderstood me. Your being able to skip to tier 2 or higher has nothing to do with the store. All you're saying is your kin is skilled, and you can skip to higher tier. It's great you can do it, and whatever loot you can earn, even when skipping tiers, is great for you. But other kins that are not as skilled may need better gear to accomplish each step. I'm thinking this way because I like grouping with unskilled players. To me many of them have great personalities, and their mistakes actually provide a lot of challenge and extra fun. Allow me to clarify more.

I was talking about if raid gear were sold, it may be a good idea to introduce a flag as a requirement for purchase in a store. Why? People who buy 3rd tier raid gear may have a much easier time in tier 1. And people who buy tier 1 gear without any requirement will have a cakewalk in soloing areas.

The flag requirement will be in the store, and in the store only, to keep the spirit of progression. It is there in the spirit of maintaining progression while avoiding grind for gear.

True I have not raided in LOTRO. Maybe LOTRO raids are designed to be easier for people to skip a lot of it. But I had great fun doing raid strategies in Everquest, and had to quit due to time constraints. These days I do miss raiding, just can no longer do a lot of raid grinds. I am hoping one day I may be able to have fun doing raid strats in LOTRO again. I did read some LOTRO threads where people complained about the terrible raid gear grind.

I think there is a market for strat-crazy time-lacking raiders like me who miss raiding fun, but can't spend the time to grind for drops anymore.

3rd party farmers...they take your money and run.

Developers...they take your money and run.

What is the difference? I'm not seeing it

The difference is when farmers will not spend their revenue in the development of the game at all. lol. (sorry that's a bitter laugh.) Instead, they will use real players by pretending to be friendly, then cheat on loot drops. They introduce emotional distress on unsuspecting players.

Developers will probably at least spend SOME money to develop the game you are playing to, albeit all companies will spend some revenue on developing new games. I don't hold my breath that LOTRO will last forever. Sometime the gaming industry will have progressed to a point this game will be too out of date. The struggle for a game is in trying to keep up with the times.

But by paying the developer, I will have contributed to the gaming industry in their development. As an avid gamer, I am always enthused by any ground-breaking future games, so I try my best to support game companies.

And before Hurin complains I'm saying I want to buy raid gear again... I'm only hoping, daydreaming about raid progression fun again. The reality is I doubt I will have time again to reach raider status. But that does not stop me from stating my hope, because I know others out there may be like me: ex-raiders from games like EQ, and some of them may actually be able to raid here.

My hope when I write posts is always to think of the bigger picture, and not just me. So sometimes I use myself as an example to illustrate one particular type of players. I know I am not alone because I've run into others like me in all sorts of MMORPGs. Pardon me if what I say are confusing. I do try to think for all types of players, not just me. So I may confuse people with seemingly conflicting statements.

@ those who talk about buying gear

Do you realize buying tomes is MUCH better then buying gear?

Person A: Best raid gear - gives you 120 stat bonus
Person B: Crafted/rep gear with bought tomes - gives 150 stat bonus (80+70)

Buying gear means you have to make a slot for the item, tomes are PASSIVE permanent bonuses.

Only one questioned needs to be answered:
Do you agree with selling store exclusive items that offer permanent in combat advantage ?

Originally Posted by Perenth

Afraid you misunderstood me. Your being able to skip to tier 2 or higher has nothing to do with the store. All you're saying is your kin is skilled, and you can skip to higher tier. It's great you can do it, and whatever loot you can earn, even when skipping tiers, is great for you. But other kins that are not as skilled may need better gear to accomplish each step. I'm thinking this way because I like grouping with unskilled players. To me many of them have great personalities, and their mistakes actually provide a lot of challenge and extra fun. Allow me to clarify more.

I've seen bad players with bad gear capable of doing Draigoch T2 without ever doing T1. Draigoch PUGS on T2 were happening weeks after enough casual players were hitting level 75. If you're simply that bad of a player, no amount of gear could possibly help you.

Originally Posted by Perenth

I was talking about if raid gear were sold, it may be a good idea to introduce a flag as a requirement for purchase in a store. Why? People who buy 3rd tier raid gear may have a much easier time in tier 1. And people who buy tier 1 gear without any requirement will have a cakewalk in soloing areas..

The way you describe, I'd consider that advantage, not convenience.

This is what convenience would be:

If the store gear was the same as the current Tower raid gear requirements -- You must complete each boss before wearing the corresponding piece. If a person completes each boss and is capable of wearing the gear but doesn't have enough marks/seals, then they should be able to buy (and wear) the raid gear off the lotro store. Saves them from grinding all the seals/marks even though they met the requirement to wear the gear.

Btw: they already have incombat morale pots with a 20s cooldown -- a seperate cooldown from regular morale pots. They also have a +5% melee/ranged/tactical defense in the store. Those two things should easily give you and your buddies an advantage since that is what you're asking for.

Originally Posted by Perenth

The difference is when farmers will not spend their revenue in the development of the game at all. lol. (sorry that's a bitter laugh.) Instead, they will use real players by pretending to be friendly, then cheat on loot drops. They introduce emotional distress on unsuspecting players.

Developers will probably at least spend SOME money to develop the game you are playing to, albeit all companies will spend some revenue on developing new games. I don't hold my breath that LOTRO will last forever. Sometime the gaming industry will have progressed to a point this game will be too out of date. The struggle for a game is in trying to keep up with the times.

But by paying the developer, I will have contributed to the gaming industry in their development. As an avid gamer, I am always enthused by any ground-breaking future games, so I try my best to support game companies.

1. Anything worthy of farmers to farm is well..bind on aquire. Can't trade it. Also, your description -- i didn't quote all of it -- seems to be about griefing. I've seen players in lotro get banned for griefing.

2. Look at a farmer: they make things available to players which typically wouldn't be available as easily. This allows players more satisfaction (usually thru less grinding) which makes them want to play the game more (reduces the grind usually). Less grind = more fun. The more a person wants to play the game, the more they'd invest into the game. The farmer may not actually invest, but the people benefiting from it just might. So farmers might produce SOME money to "develop" the game.

The reason I say developers take your money and run: if you look at the content (and quality of content) that has been released since Turbine/WB announced the great success of F2P, it has been worse than the content SoA and MoM offered. They appeared to make more money then they ever have, but we received LESS content/quality content. I honestly can't say they've used any of the extra money they've been earning towards the game or other games. They probably used it for bigger paychecks.

The game needs money to survive. Money made from the store helps to fund further development of the game, and therefore new content for us. If that comes at the cost of some random player having 100 more vitality than me...what do i care? As long as it doesn't personally effect me, or my gameplay, I'm OK with it.

We don't really have PvP at the moment, only PvMP, so it's not a direct issue there. However, as these character improvements increase (stat tomes, in combat morale pots, food, etc) player advantages in PvMP begin to be far greater. Now that creeps can buy their high rank skills and traits... it's starting to get out of hand in that respect.


So for PvE - I don't care.

PvMP - Meh


That being said....they really AREN'T using this extra profit to give us more content....in fact, comparing the rate of new content release with the increase of profit, as they make money new content release is going down.... they just keep spending all their dev time on the store >.<

Originally Posted by Perenth

And before Hurin complains I'm saying I want to buy raid gear again...

Don't worry about me. I've given up on you. Mostly because of things like this. . .

Originally Posted by Perenth

I personally would prefer to see everything in game to be available in store, and vice versa.

then. . . in response to me repeating that you think everything should be in the store, when such a position became uncomfortable for you in the context of gold selling. . .

Originally Posted by Perenth

I was talking about everything that has been controversial since the store opened: rep mount, store mount, etc. imho should be available both in game and in store. Don't think gold was ever a big controversy back when the store opened.

(emphasis mine)

So, really, there's not a lot of point in discussing things with you. You'll say you're just a dreamer and a deep thinker unbothered by detail or consistency. But what it really looks like is that you'll just say anything so long as it's convenient and that you don't in any way argue from conviction.

So I'm done. Wasted far too much time addressing your posts point-by-point up until now. Only to have you dodge and weave, and just move on to your next daydream.

--H

Originally Posted by EU_Meliana

The game needs money to survive. Money made from the store helps to fund further development of the game, and therefore new content for us. If that comes at the cost of some random player having 100 more vitality than me...what do i care? As long as it doesn't personally effect me, or my gameplay, I'm OK with it.

We don't really have PvP at the moment, only PvMP, so it's not a direct issue there. However, as these character improvements increase (stat tomes, in combat morale pots, food, etc) player advantages in PvMP begin to be far greater. Now that creeps can buy their high rank skills and traits... it's starting to get out of hand in that respect.


So for PvE - I don't care.

PvMP - Meh


That being said....they really AREN'T using this extra profit to give us more content....in fact, comparing the rate of new content release with the increase of profit, as they make money new content release is going down.... they just keep spending all their dev time on the store >.<

My post here was tailor made for you.

And since we're now fully going around in circles (as was inevitable), I'm out. All I really care to say is already said in that linked post above and in this one.

Take care all. Enjoy the game! What's left of it, anyways.

--H

Originally Posted by Fin.

@ those who talk about buying gear

Do you realize buying tomes is MUCH better then buying gear?

Person A: Best raid gear - gives you 120 stat bonus
Person B: Crafted/rep gear with bought tomes - gives 150 stat bonus (80+70)

Buying gear means you have to make a slot for the item, tomes are PASSIVE permanent bonuses.

Only one questioned needs to be answered:
Do you agree with selling store exclusive items that offer permanent in combat advantage ?

1) I'm not sure how crafted/rep gear will do when facing raid mobs. Those bosses tend to have special effects that raid gear are generally designed for. And tomes may not take care of those effects. Resists, regen, heal effect may be important for sustained boss fight.

2) As long as I can have fun in the type of things I wish to do, if someone wants to pay to be that uber.. I will kind of chuckle and say, ok if you wish.

Originally Posted by timmyloo22546

I've seen bad players with bad gear capable of doing Draigoch T2 without ever doing T1. Draigoch PUGS on T2 were happening weeks after enough casual players were hitting level 75. If you're simply that bad of a player, no amount of gear could possibly help you.

Yes I had read T1 was easy, but figured I'd include it in progression flag for fun. I recall reading some posts saying higher tiers would be harder without gear.

The way you describe, I'd consider that advantage, not convenience.

This is what convenience would be:

If the store gear was the same as the current Tower raid gear requirements -- You must complete each boss before wearing the corresponding piece. If a person completes each boss and is capable of wearing the gear but doesn't have enough marks/seals, then they should be able to buy (and wear) the raid gear off the lotro store. Saves them from grinding all the seals/marks even though they met the requirement to wear the gear.

Grind is what I am trying to rid. So this sounds good to me.

Btw: they already have incombat morale pots with a 20s cooldown -- a seperate cooldown from regular morale pots. They also have a +5% melee/ranged/tactical defense in the store. Those two things should easily give you and your buddies an advantage since that is what you're asking for.

It won't give me the same raiding experience as raiders who don't use these.

1. Anything worthy of farmers to farm is well..bind on aquire. Can't trade it. Also, your description -- i didn't quote all of it -- seems to be about griefing. I've seen players in lotro get banned for griefing.

Have to disagree based on my experience. You may be surprised at what farmers will go for. They are out to make every bit in-game money possible to sell.

2. Look at a farmer: they make things available to players which typically wouldn't be available as easily. This allows players more satisfaction (usually thru less grinding) which makes them want to play the game more (reduces the grind usually). Less grind = more fun. The more a person wants to play the game, the more they'd invest into the game. The farmer may not actually invest, but the people benefiting from it just might. So farmers might produce SOME money to "develop" the game.

Sorry I'd rather pay the developer to avoid grind. Farmers are bad for the game world atmosphere. We come here to play with people, and farmers are not here to play, but to work. Right there is a conflict. This is why most mmorpgs try to ban farmers, and I am happy they do.

The reason I say developers take your money and run: if you look at the content (and quality of content) that has been released since Turbine/WB announced the great success of F2P, it has been worse than the content SoA and MoM offered. They appeared to make more money then they ever have, but we received LESS content/quality content. I honestly can't say they've used any of the extra money they've been earning towards the game or other games. They probably used it for bigger paychecks.

I too agree it's disturbing to see multiple new bugs popping up lately, the general negative reviews on fun content in Isengard expansion, the LI scroll issue, the lack of end-game content for soloing players. Unless Turbine starts improving on those, I think the player base will decline.

Originally Posted by Hurin

in response to me repeating that you think everything should be in the store, when such a position became uncomfortable for you in the context of gold selling. . .

Bold is mine. Lol you are still insisting your warped view of me. You could have come back and claimed, "You said everything! It means you should include trash loot, ores, hides, woods!" Aren't those everything? Guess you are a bit too focused on somethings to suit your arguments, but would ignore other factors. Honestly now?

I'm glad you are done with me.

Originally Posted by Perenth

It won't give me the same raiding experience as raiders who don't use these.

You do realize that players cannot wear raid gear/certain pieces until after they've completed the raid, correct? Buying the raid gear before experiencing the raid would not give you the same experience as a raider because the raider didn't have the option available. The raider is forced to use crafted/quest/skirmish gear and experience/beat the new raids. You're asking to experience the raid through gear much better than what a raider would.

Anyways, good luck with your dreams of this game. Not going derail this thread anymore.

Originally Posted by Perenth

My hope when I write posts is always to think of the bigger picture, and not just me. So sometimes I use myself as an example to illustrate one particular type of players. I know I am not alone because I've run into others like me in all sorts of MMORPGs.

Unless the silent majority voted for you to be their lone voice, your words represent the opinions of only one person, yourself.

These forums are not invitation only, everyone has the right to post their opinions and suggestions. In my opinion, you'll get far more attention to your cause if you have many individuals giving their support rather than one lone voice that represents an unknown number of others who may or may not hold the same opinion.

Originally Posted by EU_Meliana

If that comes at the cost of some random player having 100 more vitality than me...what do i care? As long as it doesn't personally effect me, or my gameplay, I'm OK with it.

Will you still be in support of it the day that the new raid requires maxes out stat tomes in addition to the highest tier of non-raid armor?

As I mentioned earlier, Fernando Paiz says that raids can be balanced around tomes, because the tomes are available during normal gameplay. Granted, his main work is on DDO, but I'm sure his wife (Executive Producer of this game) shares those same opinions, and both games operate under an identical business model.

Now I'm not saying that such a situation WILL come, because it most likely will not. But I don't think it's wise to encourage Turbine to head in that direction just because you have faith that they will make a last second turn before speeding straight off of that cliff.

Originally Posted by Perenth

1) I'm not sure how crafted/rep gear will do when facing raid mobs. Those bosses tend to have special effects that raid gear are generally designed for. And tomes may not take care of those effects. Resists, regen, heal effect may be important for sustained boss fight.

On-level guild/crit crafted/rep gear is fine for literally every raid in the game, because that is literally the exact same gear that the first-time raiders have access to when they enter the raid.

If it took raid gear to complete a raid, then by definition, nobody would have raid gear. That would be like having every ten levels gated by a solo instance where you have to face a mob ten levels higher than you. It's just not done. Virtually all content in the game is completable with gear earned during prior content, which includes crafted/rep/skirmish gear and even certain pieces of quest gear.

Originally Posted by Perenth

I recall reading some posts saying higher tiers would be harder without gear.

If you're going in with nothing but purple quest gear and level-5 crafted gear, yes, T2 will be much harder than T1 without better gear, and you'll most likely be a liability even in a T1. But once you have the best gear reasonably available for your playstyle, whether it's guild crafted, rep, skirmish, or some combination of the three, the main difference between tiers 1 and 2 come down to player skill more than pure stats.

Originally Posted by Lestache

The issue isn't about using the Store in general, or using the Store to avoid grind. This isn't concern about people spending cash to get +1 Valour or a Scroll of Empowerment, both of which are things that require a certain, quantifiable, amount of in-game grind. The Store's alleged purpose is perfect for things like this: "What's worth more to me: the time it'd cost me to kill X number of Worms or run Y number of skirmishes to get what I want, or the time or money cost of the TPs it'll take to do the same."

It's about particular items in the Store that are used to advance one's character that, for all intents and purposes, aren't available in the game. This particular thread is about stat tomes, but it could also include the store-only relics and the store-only morale and power pots. That's all this is about - how much character advancement are we willing to accept being available only in the Store as opposed to just in the game, or at least reasonably available in the game as well as in the Store?

This is from a few pages back, but it highlights the issue well for me. It's not the fact that these are in the store, but that they are effectively not available in the game and are a permanent increase to my character. T4/5 was really pushing the possibility of gaining them in gain for the insane like me, let alone T6/7.

I'm hoping that someday they would just be available feasibly via gameplay.

Originally Posted by Nymphonic

Supply and Demand. No one is to blame but the players that vote with their wallets. I'm guilty too. Two nights ago, I wasn't in the mood to do a deed so I bought a trait tome.

why are you locking into a game you dont have the 'nerv' to play ... ?
I am really asking you, and I am really questioning you ...
you help them bring this game down, while you pretend to be a fan
of that game ... please get yourself some standarts !

and stop ...

BTW Hurin, I like the way you wrote your post. I wish everyone used proper grammar and broke up their post into paragraphs the way you did. It looks good and it's very easy to read.

... being so superficial

best regards

Ultimately, the fact that the stat tomes do not drop reasonably in game, that there are relics you cannot earn in game, and that the relic removal scrolls are not available in game are the reasons I spend more and more time playing other games like Vampire: Bloodlines, Skyrim, and SW:TOR.

I want to play the game *in-game*. I don't want to buy the game. I don't want significant gear *or* significant fluff available outside the *game* itself. As the store becomes more and more equivalent to the *game* i become less and less involved, I care less and less what happens to the game.

The best piece of cosmetic clothing I've seen in ages turned out to be a store only cosmetic item. If it was available to be earned *in-game* I wouldn't complain. As it is, Turbine has seen the last of my RL money until and unless the situation changes.

It's easy to write off the stat tomes as 'minor buffs'. The issue is when you start adding all these effectively store exclusive 'minor buffs' together, they start to add up to a 'significant buff'.

(Effectively) store only stat tomes
Store only relics
Store only super morale/power pots
Store only super disease/poison/fear/wound pots
Store only -5% incoming damage scrolls

Btw. even if at high levels adding +70 by stat tomes to an already high stat value (e.g. >1000) does not change so much - but does it matter to add e.g. +70 might by stat tomes to a stat value <100 that it is not considered as a main attribute for one's class?

Think of a Runekeeper that had already bought +70 for will, fate and vitality in his/her early levels and had a nice boost in leveling up - but has finally reached a high level and corresponding gear and thus high overall values in these stats, so that the little bonus from the stat tomes does not matter any longer! - Now, if that char boosts might and/or agility from e.g. 80 to 150 by additional stat tomes, does this help anything for this class (better overall defense or so)?

If yes, will it then have a significant influence even at higher levels?

Regards
ILM