Thread: Tier 7 Stat tomes

Originally Posted by RicardoFurriel

To my eyes (and other people I'm sure), the obvious solution is to make stat tomes truly and realistically obtainable in-game.

For the poster who said he/she rolled on 30/40 stat tomes so far, you either play 24/7 and/or have the best lucky charm I've ever heard of. I too ran 100s of GBs. And Annuminas. And Helegrods. And Inn of the Forsaken. And Halls of Night. X 4 characters... I've seen 2 stat tomes drop... (that I lost the roll too)

Suggestion: make stat tomes drop with the same % as the worn symbol in the foudry. For all instances <40, t1-t4. For instances 40-75, t4-t7. Turbine would actually see more people buying stat tomes from the store if they gave players some of them (and people would have to complete the "set"). At least wouldn't be as shady as it it now (the total silence regarding stat tomes for over a year supports this entirely).

To echo Lestache's post back there, kudos to Hurin for putting a good and civilized fight. You are a very well spoken person who writes coherent, objective and organized posts.

Apparently the current t2 Orthanc encounters are really challenging. Every "little" bit counts and +70 will/fate on a minie, might/vitality on a champ, agility/vitality on a hunter/burglar, multiplied by 12 people in a raid... Well... If one fails to see the "advantage" of this scenario...

PS: Don't buy stat tomes. Don't fall into the trap.

That was me that gained that many stat tomes (almost all only T1-T2). I haven't tried to farm them in over a year. As for luck, my kin thinks I'm some sort of gm or something and I know secrets to random things such tome drops, lottery wins, etc. I admit I have been very lucky, but the drop rate of the tomes seems to decrease as the level increases as I've only ever seen them drop in L31-35 and below.

As T3 starts to drop at L30 (and T4 at maybe L40/45/50 depending on the logic) and the amount of time needed to clear instance rises (~L20 can take as little as 3.5 min for the maze), the time needed to grind the T3/T4 tomes skyrockets. T1/T2 are horrid to grind for, but as you go up in tiers after that it becomes silly to think about even grinding for. I was just commenting as one that tested heck out of the drop rate both on live and beta and has probably been the most successful in getting them to drop, I completely agree with the fact that obtaining T7s in a particular stat is in practice essentially store-exclusive, basically starting with ~T4+. It's just plain silly.

Originally Posted by Cambruin

Did I somehow end up in some sort of race? Do I have to care that the Champ next to me has 70 more Strength/Agility? Sure, he has better dps, no doubt. He paid for it, yet I'm reaping the rewards too, because now raidboss xxx is going down 0.5s faster. Win win win.

I can't help but wonder why people feel the need to get excited over such petty things. Same thing with Creeps being able to "omg buy skills!!" because "I worked my ### off getting that rank!!". Be happy, now more people feel inclined to give monsterplay a try and your fellow creeps are proving stronger allies then they used to, positively affecting the outcome of the battles.

I'm gonna have to cut down on reading these forums because every time I'm checking them I'm feeling guilty for having fun ingame.

I do not know if somebody has comentet this...

Why would the raidleders have you in the raid? The buy to win characters are better than you, and will be even better in the future. You, with your gimped character is useless in a raid.

It has been some talk about not getting into raid because you arent geared for it. Why should it be different without storebought stats?

Confession:

I use the store often to buy stats, virtues, maps etc. And I like it.

Seriously, what's at the bottom of the slope? Folks who say "It is what it is", well, so is a pile of dog ####, but you're probably not real happy when you step in it, especially if you're blissfully unaware of it until you get home and it stains the carpet.

Yes, Turbine needs to make money to stay active. They make that money through the store. And it will continue to get and be ever more blatant.

There's another thread going that the OP says give more TP to VIPs and lifers, 500 isn't enough. 500 is enough; it's enough to get you to want to buy more so you can buy all the stuff in the store that isn't available in-game. Right now, we still have a player base that has the past experience of what used to be. Soon enough, the player base will be one that has always had the store there to get the things they want and need.

What I see at the bottom of the slope-- The grind is gone. So many people complain about the grind, so it will be removed from the game, and all the stuff that was being ground for will be available only in the store. And since the grind is gone, that also means no more TP for deeds, or reputation, which will also be available in-store. And finally, TP as quest rewards. Want that really great sword? It's in the store. But the TP as reward will never, ever be enough to cover the cost of all that you'll need-- 7 armour pieces (which said armour only lasts for 2 levels anyway), every jewellery piece, and all the weapons (see the paranthetical about the armour), legendary items, consummables, dyes, everything that is now in-game will be available only in the store, to be bought with TP, and the TP earned as a quest reward is only a means of getting a person to buy more. Microtransaction at it's ultimate, the bottom of the slippery slope.

I'll catch grief for this, I'm sure. That's ok. I don't mind living with my eyes open.

Originally Posted by The_Legacy

I don't think it's that terrible...

I have various stat tomes in my shared storage about 4-5 of them, can't use them becouse I don't wanna buy any but I wanna have them when I get the lower tiers. That means, those I have I got from lowlever instances and Lottery.
That's how I play it.

having +10 - +70 more stat won't do that big change, though it would be neat to have.

And as I have understod about this buy your t7 stat tome is only for a short time means they won't go to t8 t9 becouse they know that would be to much.
But having "one time" only chance to buy T7 would mean for those who havent gotten T6 to buy so they can buy this T7 before it's gone making alot of player buy not only this new T7 but also <T6 becouse they can't just wait to buy T7 becouse it will be gone.

If you understand what im getting at, I think that is how this plan is and it will make profit. So in a few months we will see this campain again and then it's more profit from those who missed it and are new.

@Turbine: Now please don't go making T8 Stat tomes>

I really doubt that because its limited time, then T7 is the highest we will see. It's probably limited time so that people make a quick decision rather than thinking about it. In a couple of months they will come back permanently, and then it won't be long before T8 arrives for a limited time as well.

personally i have never seen a negative effect caused by the existence of the stat tomes within the game

i agree however that there should be an easier way to obtain them ingame

Originally Posted by StavroMuellerBeta

With pay-to-win items in the store, content will gradually become gated by these store-exclusive items.

Under the old model, you bought the expansion, ran the raid, and you won or lost depending on your gear and your skill.

Under the model that Turbine appears to be moving to, you buy the expansion, run the raid, and win or lose based on how many pay-to-win items you've bought. You can be the best skilled and best geared player in the game, yet fail a raid because you don't have the correct tiers of stat tomes. In other words, Radiance 3.0.

This. Completely. It's been my argument from the start. Please don't forget that not all players - I'd wager not even the majority of players - are "completely geared up." Many of us play with far far less than raid/hard mode gear. When some number of players are all geared up with tomes, the baseline difficulty is increased to match. Then the tome become in essence required rather than optional, and a whole new level of optional increases are added to the store. It's a natural cycle, and it disheartens me in the extreme to see Turbine continuing to pursue it.

Regarding the availability of stat tomes in game? Laughable. If you find or AH-purchase or lottery win one at mid or high level, you still have to fill in with Store tomes at the lower levels to be able to use them. It's a well thought out program to push store purchases. And it works.

I'm hardly against Turbine/WB making money on this game. Even with a lifetime account I've bought points and spent money on the expansion. There are many items in the store that belong there, and that don't/won't affect overall game play. This isn't one of them.

Slippery slope? Indeed. And getting slicker all the time.

I didn't buy it yet, but it shows up in the store when logged in to my L53 character (who'd already used Tomes I-VI).

My ''gift'' to my alts is tomes I-VI for their primary stat when they hit L50 -- huzzah monthly VIP TPs stacking up!

Edit: Bought Agility VII on my L38 Burg just fine (and it correctly added 10).

I see no problem with these items being in the store.

But I agree that it is a problem for ANY item that gives you a significant advantage in game to ONLY be available in the store. All such items should also be realistically and reasonably atainable in game, even if it is a grind.

Please, Turbine, please stop making such large advantages only available in the store.

So a Champion wants to go on a raid and has 1400 might and 900 vitality. We're supposed to believe that the raid leader is examining him on the web site to see what his stats are? What exactly does this tell him? Did the champ buy +70 tomes or does he have good gear? How is anyone supposed to be able to tell that? Unless you have 2 people of the same class with the exact same gear, you won't know who bought the tomes or who didn't.

Someone may have bought all 7 tomes and still have less of a stat than someone who bought none of them. How does this make it the dreaded "Pay to Win"?

Yes, if you buy the tomes you will be stronger than you were without them. It doesn't mean you are stronger or better than anyone else though.

But, but, it's so convenient to have higher stats than everyone else!

Firstly: its nice to see fellow NC fans who also play LotRO.

Secondly: you could have just used the other, longer, topic that's already been started on this.

I'm quoting from way back in the thread. sorry but I think it makes it easier to respond:

Originally Posted by Mithrandir3

Be careful what you wish for, you might just get it. My kin is dead. My server is dwindling rapidly. I can't find pugs for anything but Draigoch and Foundry.

A LOT of people simply went away. Such a shame.

This isn't really related to the thread, but I'll say it anyways. Your problem here isn't because of the tomes or the store- it's a result of the natural rate of player turnover in any game and your kins not recruiting among the new players coming in. Players leave for other things over time, and new players come in. if you're not actively meeting new people, recruiting, and getting out of your bubble, then it will appear the game is dying to you, regardless of how many people there may actually be playing. The problem here isn't with the game, it's with you and your kin. Go meet new people. Go to the newbie areas, which are teeming with people who want to learn and play and bring them in. It'll likely give you and your kin a new life.

Originally Posted by Firemane0

I suppose since my highest character is sub 50 i have to ask the question: " Are these tomes needed to successfully play the game at higher levels? Are players turning away other players because their stats are not high enough?"
If the answer is no, then why complain.

Now if a properly equipped and experienced group cannot succeed without store bought items ... then we have a problem and a reason grab the torches and pitchforks.

No the tomes are not "necessary" to play the game successfully. you don't have to have them, and you can play just fine without them.

That said, they do have an impact, and your character is going to be far more successful and powerful with them then without them. The biggest problem is that the drop rate of tomes in the game is rare, verging on the almost unseen. As such that makes it not just a convenience in the store, but an advantage that is very difficult to near impossible to get in the game, and that's the crux of the problem. The simple solution is to increase the drop rates in the game. they don't need to do it a lot, but enough that people that actually want to go that route and try to get them in game actually have a possibility of being able to do it without having to grind hundreds of instances in the hope of getting one tier1 tome.

Until they do that, even if it's only up to the T4 or T5 tomes, it's a store only advantage, and that's unacceptable.

70 to each stat comes out to an extra (roughly):

0.8% physical/tactical mitigation
0.7% b/p/e
0.7% resist rating
0.3% crit rating
55 ICPR
210 morale (350 if guard/warden)
210 power
700 offense (~2% damage)

It's all fairly minor when looked at seperately. Offense is the most noticable along with morale and power/icpr. That is still no excuse for those advantages to be store exclusive or like big foot and manbearbig rarity in game.

Originally Posted by Armaius

Firstly: its nice to see fellow NC fans who also play LotRO.

Secondly: you could have just used the other, longer, topic that's already been started on this.

Firstly: Multiple threads on the same topic are nothing new.

Secondly: My thread appears to have been merged with the other thread anyway.

Originally Posted by Lyllethe

Don't subscribers get free 500TP every month? Plus you'll probably 100-200 TP from completing deeds. This is enough to buy stat tomes for two essential stats per month for free.

5 different stats with 7 available ranks.

5*7 = 35 different stat tomes PER character.

It would take 18 months worth of VIP to get every stat tome for ONE TOON. Crazy, right?

Main offense stat, vitality, and fate are likely the 3 'must haves' for most people who choose to get stat tomes. That is still 21 stat tomes needed for their toon. Still would take a person 11 months just for ONE toon.

Oh wait: but what about the relic removal scrolls for the amazing relics that were removed from the game? Only way to keep them is through the lotro store. People who want the ultimate edge use TPs to keep a few of those relics handy since certain ones are the best available in the game.

If a VIP saved ALL their TPs strictly to keep an edge without using consumables, it'd take what, 2 years worth of VIP for a single toon? You gotta be joking me.

Obviously, I can't stop anyone from saying whatever they want. But it would be great if we didn't bog this thread down with the same old complaints about the prevalence of store advertising, or the overall distaste some folks have for the F2P model.

The "First Principle"
First, I need to create a bit of "short-hand." To my mind, the "first principle" at play here has always been that advancing your character and gaining stats/skills/ability/resilience/power should be obtained through playing the game. But, if Turbine's bottom line requires that this principle be violated and that they sell such things (in addition to all the profitable fluff/cosmetics) the nature of the game as a game should at least require them to make those same character enhancements available through gameplay.

Despite the assertions of a couple people in this thread, nobody actually familiar with the drop rate considers these stat increases to be available through gameplay.

As long as they're not required to complete content, they don't cross a line.
This is an argument of convenience for those who only play the game in a certain way. It's fine that they aren't affected personally. More power to them (for TP of course!). But it willfully misses the point. A game where advancement is earned not through playing the game but (exclusively!) by laying down cash is no longer a game in the eyes of a great many people. Nobody can seriously say that the stat tomes --as store exclusives aren't a violation of that principle. So they invent this arbitrary gauge by which they measure how badly the principle is being violated for their own personal use, and then apply that standard across the board to everyone. But, alas, the fact remains that the principle is being violated.

It reminds me of that old story about Churchill. At a fancy meal he playfully asks the lady seated next to him: "My dear lady, would you sleep with me for one million pounds?" The lady gives it some thought and then replies: "Well, sir, I believe I would." So Churchill then says: "My dear lady, would you sleep with me for one hundred pounds?" The lady, aghast, replies: "Mr. Prime Minister! Do you think me a prostitute!?!" And Churchill replies: "We have already established that you are, my dear lady. Now we are merely haggling over price."

Once you say: "Yes, they are selling advancement exclusively in the store, but it's not required, so it's okay". . . you've already conceded violation of the first principle. Now you're just establishing your own personal threshold for how far you're willing to have first principles violated.

And, of course, via reductio ad absurdum, we could argue that Turbine could add "Swords of Instant Death to Anything in the Game" exclusively to the store and as long as they still allowed us to complete content without it, by the logic of those making the counter-argument above, such a store exclusive would be just fine. But, of course, it wouldn't be.

Since this is a PvE game, they don't cross a line. I don't care what other characters have.
This also willfully misses the point. No, we don't compete with each other directly in that we aren't beating each other up in the game with the items/stats/enhancement we buy in the store. But, of course, this argument only suits those of a certain playstyle and ignores the playstyle of others who take the "first principle" seriously. In other words: People that play a game in order to maximize their characters' potential wish to do so through playing the game (while still spending plenty on fluff/cosmetics/convenience). It's fine that not everyone plays the game like that, but that doesn't render the violation of the "first principle" any less egregious. It just renders certain people apathetic to the violation of the principle.

Turbine needs to make money or we'll never make it to Mordor! So, I'm okay with this.
Yes, Turbine needs to make money. And, by all accounts, the store model has been very successful. Which is great! I like Turbine and I like this game. But people are setting up a false choice here when they say that violating the "first principle" is necessary for Turbine to make money. First, it's highly doubtful that the Store Model stops making substantial amounts of money when you take any one "violating" item out of it. Obviously, they still makes tremendous amounts of money on all the things they sell: Fluff and convenience (including character enhancers that are still available through gameplay and therefore don't violate the "first Principle").

Turbine (and every other business operating under this model) are on record as saying that their goal with the F2P model is to "push the envelope" regarding what they can sell and what they can't. The fact that there is even an "envelope" to "push" establishes that there is a "first principle" to be taken into account. . . otherwise, heck, they could just sell level 75 toons outright, the raid armour sets, and even "swords of instant boss death" exclusively in the store.

In essence, Turbine knows that violating that principle to some degree, a little bit at a time, will bring them increased profits above what they could make while strictly adhering to it. The degree to which they can and will violate that principle, and the pace at which they do so, is entirely dependent on where its playerbase "draws the line" and where even those who would normally make excuses for them and rationalize prior violations sit up and take notice.

So. . . anyways. . .

As others have said, the main crux of the "violation" here is that they are, in reality, store exclusives. If these stat tomes were actually (truly) obtainable in the game and the store was (truly) only making them more conveniently available, there would be no issue.

I'm sure we'll continue to see "they're not required to complete content" and "we're not competing with each other" again and again. But those seeing the bigger picture here realize that such arguments miss the forest for the trees.

Best Regards,

Hurin

Originally Posted by timmyloo22546

5 different stats with 7 available ranks.

5*7 = 35 different stat tomes PER character.

It would take 18 months worth of VIP to get every stat tome for ONE TOON. Crazy, right?

Main offense stat, vitality, and fate are likely the 3 'must haves' for most people who choose to get stat tomes. That is still 21 stat tomes needed for their toon. Still would take a person 11 months just for ONE toon.

Oh wait: but what about the relic removal scrolls for the amazing relics that were removed from the game? Only way to keep them is through the lotro store. People who want the ultimate edge use TPs to keep a few of those relics handy since certain ones are the best available in the game.

If a VIP saved ALL their TPs strictly to keep an edge without using consumables, it'd take what, 2 years worth of VIP for a single toon? You gotta be joking me.

"You have given out too much reputation in the last 24 hours; try again later."

Not sure this has been mentioned but +70 to all stats effectivley is like adding one or two extra jewellery slots and saying that you can't use them unless you unlock them from the Store? Or even locking the "ring" slot and saying you need to unlock them from the store. Yes sure you don't need to have 2 x rings but everyone does.

Or another example the Captains idome legendary skill is now less powerful than someone who has bought all the stat tomes. So rather than have stat tomes if the Captains Idome skill needed to be bought from the store would you have a problem? I'd suspect yes.

In practice both the above examples have the same impact on gameplay and most would consider that as going too far. Whereas the Stat tomes have the same impact but are less obvious thats "ok"?

Speaking as a casual player, I am very happy the store has these. Just bought it for all of my toons.

For those of you who cry a river in these threads, think about people like us, please. Maybe Turbine put it in the store to help folks like us who are ultra casual players. Maybe the reason they don't make these abundantly available in game because then it will only raise the par so that casuals like us will no longer be able to group.

At level 48 after 19 months of play, I'm soloing level 43 quests and getting #### gear. Without these stat tombs, I will not be able to tank for a level-appropriate group.

Thanks for reading. I hope you will do some math and figure out how little these stats will really mean when you add up all the raid gear stat and effects such as uber IC moral regen. I've seen threads in the past where raiders said they had more than maxed their stats. That does not even count raid gear effects such as IC moral regen.

I have paid a lot of money to help support this game. The game you get to pay $15 a month and play for hours and hours. I pay more than you, and I'm only playing about 1 hour a week. Let's be fair about pay to have fun? (wry smile) If you are not willing to support Turbine as a business, it will be your choice. I will still continue to support this game.

I do have a feeling Turbine's revenue in 2011 went up a bunch due to the fact that there are plenty of players like me. Most of us do not have time to post on the forums. Unlike the people who have hours to play, hours to post perceived injustices here. What you really come across to me are just that you want to be a power gamer, and god forbid the casual players can "win", because all you can see is "win" or "lose" in your heads. Not the financial needs and balances of running a game company.

Sorry but Turbine, (AKA WB), is now doing to LoTRO as they did to D&D and that game went down fast because it became only the best stuff could be purched from the store with TP, and D&D is in worse shape than LoTRO. But we are following close behine. It seams WB is buying up MMO's turning them into their kind of F2P and moveing on to the next. WB is a big corperation and they make a big boom turning a MMO into F2P, but then they get an awesome tax write off as it loses money for 7 yrs. Something to think about.
So the game may not be P2W but it may become you can't win unless you pay.

I'd be happy if raid gear is sold in the store. If raid gear is sold, then I will vote yes on these stat tombs being frequent drops in raids.

Originally Posted by Butlewald

Or another example the Captains idome legendary skill is now less powerful than someone who has bought all the stat tomes. So rather than have stat tomes if the Captains Idome skill needed to be bought from the store would you have a problem? I'd suspect yes.

let's not get ahead of ourselves here^^

idome is +75 to every stat (so actually more not less) and group wide
doesn't compare :P

Or is it the games now cater to people who have more money than the blue collar worker, or the retired and Disabled person?

Originally Posted by Sultiana

Or is it the games now cater to people who have more money than the blue collar worker, or the retired and Disabled person?

I doubt it. Since raid gear is still way more uber. I would really like to see raid gear be available in the store to be fair.

Originally Posted by Hurin

Obviously, I can't stop anyone from saying whatever they want. But it would be great if we didn't bog this thread down with the same old complaints about the prevalence of store advertising, or the overall distaste some folks have for the F2P model.

<snip>

Very nice & well-worded post. Ever since the exclusive relics were placed in the store it has been very nice change to see your thought-out responses.

As for me, even given all you've said I'm in the "I'm too tired to post" group. There is only so many times I can lay out my thoughts and reasons for the items I don't care for being in the store or how the in-game method of obtaining the stat tomes really needs to change.

Some time ago I've just set up a few rules that I play by:

- If it is something I want Turbine to create (content, instances, expansions, skirmishes), I have no problem paying money for and do.
- If it is something like the stat tomes, relic removal scrolls, store-exclusive relics, etc. where it is a perm. or semi-perm advancement exclusive and/or effectively exclusive to the store, I'll obtain what is feasible in game, AH, and/or lottos and refuse to spend tp through the store.
- If ever I come to content that I feel I should be able to complete as a lifetimer, but cannot without spending money on the store (i.e. I'm solo and it's a solo instance or I'm in a 3-man in a 3-man skirmish/instance not I'm solo and it's a raid ), I'm done.

I'm just tired of continually posting positions on the same issue. I just vote with my actions and let it rest. As long as I'm just a player, it's an entertainment issue and I don't want to get worked up any more over entertainment.

Edit: nvm

Originally Posted by flyingcircus

let's not get ahead of ourselves here^^

idome is +75 to every stat (so actually more not less) and group wide
doesn't compare :P

Apologies dossed up on flu medicine and forgot they fixed Idome to scale with RoI.

Anyway the point is still valid because everyone in a group can have +70 stat tomes so they are group wide (i think - its all going fuzzy).

Guys it is not important by how much your stats get increased.

The point is this is store exclusive item, that gives you permanent advantage in combat.

No, 70 stat is not required to kill a boss. But as well eating food, using hope token, using battle scrolls, using DP buffs, etc. None of that is required.

There is only one question:

Do you agree with selling store exclusive items that offer permanent advantage in combat?

Yes/No.

That is it.

I think they are not a good thing and a bad trend.

That said, I'll probably be buying some for my Captain main, who already has +60 in 4 stats and +50 in Will. Why? Well, they are permanent buffs to my character who I spend a modest amount of time raiding. I have a lifetime account, and consider the TP I get from that to be available spent on stuff like this. To resist the insidious evils I see in buying advantage, I've made it a policy to spend the TP I earn on these things, but not buy TP for cash. I'm willing to buy expansions, just not willing to pay money for "regular" game play. When the time comes that I feel like I need to spend money for "regular" play, the writing will be on the wall for me.

I don't see these tomes as crossing any new lines. However, do I like it? Not really, no.

Originally Posted by Perenth

I doubt it. Since raid gear is still way more uber. I would really like to see raid gear be available in the store to be fair.

So, in soccer, do you just walk up to the opposing goalie and offer him $20 to let you score? Do you offer all the opposing players $10 to let you use your hands and just run with the ball? Because you're a busy person and don't have as much time as they do to practice?

I see your points, but the lengths to which you're willing to take your own vision of how this game should be would 100% ruin the game for a vast number of players. Whereas, I think it's pretty clear that the existing model (where many achievements still --thankfully-- are only available through achieving them) does not drive the casual players away to any such (appreciable) degree. Since actually achieving certain things in a game (rather than just buying them outright) is pretty universally accepted as an integral part of a game being a game by even the most casual of players. Surely, everything shouldn't be for sale. And surely, those things that are for sale in the store shouldn't be there exclusively (fluff/cosmetics excepted).

--H

Originally Posted by PerinStone

LOL. Was Radiance 2.0 Finesse? If that is the case then I will agree with you. Stat Tomes will be as like Radiance as Finesse was (i.e. not at all.)

I'm assuming you missed the revamped Radiance that we had for about a year before they finally removed it?

Radiance 1.0 gave hope 24/7, in all fights, in all instances, regardless of whether it's a gated raid boss or open-world deed grinding.
Radiance 2.0 was literally nothing more than a stat to keep you in sub-par armor for certain instances.

During the QA session at the end of the Pax East keynote I linked earlier, someone specifically asked the question of balancing end-game raids when people have stat tomes. Fernando Paiz fumbled around a bit, but essentially said that because players can earn those same tomes in the game, nothing is really gated by the store.

Basically, he admitted that they're moving in the direction of store-gated content, but that's all fine because you might find a T1 tome for a stat you can't use if you grind a few thousand instances.

My problem with the tomes is not that they exist, but that they cannot be reasonably attained within the game. If they would drop from 3+ man skirmishes and instances at a 1/100 rate, I would consider that reasonable. But when they only drop from a handful of full-fellow/raid instances on closer to a 1/1000 rate, while at the same time the producer admits to balancing content against players who have every available tome...

Where is the line? At this point, why not just sell the raid gear directly and be done with it? It seems that no matter how far Turbine takes the store into raid gating territory, certain people will always be making up excuses like "you wouldn't need the tomes if you just sat in the Prancing Pony emoting all day like me" or "you have a job so you should be able to buy point cards on top of buying the expansion and paying for your monthly subscription" or "you can grind ten thousand mobs for 200 points, so the IRS is wrong when they say that points have a value".

But I know every word of this will fall on deaf ears. Turbine will continue with their stance of "the forums don't matter", the defenders will continue ignoring Turbine's own words in favor of their own version of reality, and everyone else will silently stop supporting the game until WB finds it no longer financially feasible to keep the servers running.

Originally Posted by Hurin

So, in soccer, do you just walk up to the opposing goalie and offer him $20 to let you score? Do you offer all the opposing players $10 to let you use your hands and just run with the ball? Because you're a busy person and don't have as much time as they do to practice?

I see your points, but the lengths to which you're willing to take your own vision of how this game should be would 100% ruin the game for a vast number of players. Whereas, I think it's pretty clear that the existing model (where many achievements still --thankfully-- are only available through achieving them) does not drive the casual players away to any such (appreciable) degree.

--H

Not at all, sir. I read the forum all the time to learn strats and practice my combat skills. Anytime I join a group people praise me. But the mountains of hours needed to grind for a piece of gear is the time I don't have. I am interested in strats, not grind. For a game to interest people like me, it would need to have fun casual-friendly raid environment where I can drop in on one night I have free time and raid for the fun of it. I actually enjoy raiding. But the current trend in mmorpg is such that if you can't devote a lot of time to belong to a raid guild, your chances at seeing a raid zone is little. I would like to be equipped enough to join a raid and play with people for fun without even needing to roll for loot, and leave loots for other fellow raiders who may want to roll for it.

Gaming should not be work, but fun. It should be a challenge and learning, but not a grind. It should be social to the degree that any casual player can enjoy joining a raid group at the drop of a hat. That would be my personal ideal.

Will it be come true? I don't know. However your idea is also just yours. You and others opened many threads in your attempt to knock down the one thing I can buy to help me. I don't wish you to force your idea on me either. If you guys succeed in knocking stat tombs out, I will no longer be able to tank for a level-appropriate instanced group.

Originally Posted by sirwillow

This isn't really related to the thread, but I'll say it anyways. Your problem here isn't because of the tomes or the store- it's a result of the natural rate of player turnover in any game and your kins not recruiting among the new players coming in. Players leave for other things over time, and new players come in. if you're not actively meeting new people, recruiting, and getting out of your bubble, then it will appear the game is dying to you, regardless of how many people there may actually be playing. The problem here isn't with the game, it's with you and your kin. Go meet new people. Go to the newbie areas, which are teeming with people who want to learn and play and bring them in. It'll likely give you and your kin a new life.

Not necessarily. My kin *isn't* here b/c of the game itself, not b/c they stopped gaming, or being friends. We've *collectively* left and moved to other venues, entirely b/c of changes to the game. Currently, we're all together in that other game that's doesn't have LIs in favor of items that honestly "level with you". We're all on lifetimers (that miss out on our 500 TP b/c we often "miss a month" and you have to login to collect your TP). We're all on Facebook, we're all on Google+, we have a mumble server we chat on daily. We don't want to bring new people in our kin, b/c we don't enjoy the game anymore. When we bring our friends into a game, it's into a game we're playing. Right now, that's SWTOR, b/c I could get my friends/coworkers to buy that, and they won't even try LOTRO for free b/c they don't take the publisher/vision seriously.

Every time one of these silly decisions gets made and we get an email about a limited time offer, we're on social media trashing how much the game jumped the shark. First thing I did this morning was get on google chat and message another officer in the kin and laugh about the limited time offer to buy yet another tier of stats.

Other games offer new features, for free, that are only available in-game for a TP cost not in-line w/ 500 TP / month subscription fee. (maybe, if features like map cooldown, add'l milestones, and vault space were for an account, rather than by toon, the price would be in-line - if you only play one toon, as I do, it *is* inline. But in other games, I can enjoy fast travel on all my toons w/o visiting a store 8 times for 8 toons. They give it to me, b/c it enhances my gaming experience, and I like myself an enhanced gaming experience, especially one I'm PAYING for.

Removing features (relic removal) and forcing a punishment (grind, for me... GRIND!!!!! mwahahaha) if the store-only option isn't purchased (to avoid said gring) is not a "reward" for sticking w/ Turbine through the transition. It's a clear sign, for all to see - this is the new model. Technically, it's a convenience - but legalese definitions only give a technical authority, not a moral one.

Continuously adding stat tomes is a given, but the reminder of such is what brings it to the forefront - they're not obtainable in a way a reasonable, rational human would describe. Buy it, or don't, but they're in-game by the slimmest technical margin I've ever experienced in an MMO, and I've played quite a few asian games where a .5% drop rate was not uncommon.

They'll be on the store again, and then a few months later they'll be on a 1/2-off sale. A few months later, tier 8's will be available for a limited time only.

It's not a model I like. It's why I stopped w/ my hunter blog, it's why I slowed/stopped writing for LOTRO stratics, and it's why I rarely play LOTRO even though it's free for me. The grind was no longer enjoyable, once I hit level cap, all I did was roll an alt and ding it up. When you login to a game, and play its earliest content, simply for the nostalgia, the game isn't moving in the right direction.

Originally Posted by Laerien

They could sell ferrari pets if they want. What you mention is already in the game, people pay to unlock different kind of slots.

Purchasing an additional 2 ring slots is already in game? So you're saying I can run around with 4 rings?

Depends, if there are lvl 85 mobs we "need" those +5 levels.

Everyone has his own limit.

What's the difference between a lvl 65 character who buy a +10 lvls necklace and another dude who get the same doing RoI quests?. So answering your question: there is no limit.

I don't think you understood much of what I said (making your responses quite confusing).

Originally Posted by BBSoonerOU

So you're saying I can run around with 4 rings?

11 if you're a dwarf!





>.>

Originally Posted by Perenth

It should be a challenge and learning, but not a grind. It should be social to the degree that any casual player can enjoy joining a raid group at the drop of a hat. That would be my personal ideal.

I know I kind of snipped your post apart, but I just wanted to mention that MMOs with successful "raid content" are driven by challenge and reward. If anybody and everybody could join at the drop of a hat then one of those two categories would suffer: either the scale of the challenge would be lessened, or the loot would be obsolete if anybody could go which diminishes reward.

Arguably the "reward" aspect of raid content in LotRO is already hurting, but that's for another thread I suppose.

I don't wish you to force your idea on me either. If you guys succeed in knocking stat tombs out, I will no longer be able to tank for a level-appropriate instanced group.

Also, if this is how you honestly feel, then stat tomes have done more damage to the game than I previously thought. If anybody is under the impression that a store item is required to run content in their classes deemed role, then Turbine has failed miserably.

Originally Posted by BBSoonerOU

Also, if this is how you honestly feel, then stat tomes have done more damage to the game than I previously thought. If anybody is under the impression that a store item is required to run content in their classes deemed role, then Turbine has failed miserably.

Actually, if anyone feels they need the tomes to play, then Turbine has succeeded in their aim of getting folks into the store.

Originally Posted by Perenth

If you guys succeed in knocking stat tombs out, I will no longer be able to tank for a level-appropriate instanced group.

I try to be polite. But I just don't believe that this is actually the case. There are ample less-grindy means of obtaining adequate gear that will make you group-ready (crafting, AH, etc.). So we'll just have to agree to disagree if you insist on this being true.

Props and points though for finding an angle other than: "They're not required/We're not in competition/Turbine needs to make money."

--H

Originally Posted by StavroMuellerBeta

I'm assuming you missed the revamped Radiance that we had for about a year before they finally removed it?

Radiance 1.0 gave hope 24/7, in all fights, in all instances, regardless of whether it's a gated raid boss or open-world deed grinding.
Radiance 2.0 was literally nothing more than a stat to keep you in sub-par armor for certain instances.

No, I've been here since open beta. I guess I'm used to so many calling finese the new radiance before ROI was released I assumed that's what you meant.

During the QA session at the end of the Pax East keynote I linked earlier, someone specifically asked the question of balancing end-game raids when people have stat tomes. Fernando Paiz fumbled around a bit, but essentially said that because players can earn those same tomes in the game, nothing is really gated by the store.

Basically, he admitted that they're moving in the direction of store-gated content, but that's all fine because you might find a T1 tome for a stat you can't use if you grind a few thousand instances.

My problem with the tomes is not that they exist, but that they cannot be reasonably attained within the game. If they would drop from 3+ man skirmishes and instances at a 1/100 rate, I would consider that reasonable. But when they only drop from a handful of full-fellow/raid instances on closer to a 1/1000 rate, while at the same time the producer admits to balancing content against players who have every available tome...

He admitted they are moving to store gated comment from the previous comment or was there something else in the interview? Whether or not the stat tomes can be gotten in-game, and I will readily admit that they can't be reasonably obtained, nothing is being gated by the tomes no matter how much some people want to argue that.

Where is the line? At this point, why not just sell the raid gear directly and be done with it?

That seems to be what everyone is worried about. How far will they take it. I'd be fine if they sold raid gear in the store, assuming it was still available in game. I'm sure the people doing the raids multiple times a week would have a fit if they did. I have faith that they won't push the store to such an extent that it forces you to buy things to compete. Some people are afraid that they will and others think they have done so already. I would bet there are more people in my position than the others, even if they are less vocal on the forum.

Originally Posted by Fin.

Do you agree with selling store exclusive items that offer permanent advantage in combat?

First of all a side note: If you are talking "advantage", In-Game exclusive items such as raid gear offers an advantage to those who have hours to grind.

To answer your question: I personally would prefer to see everything in game to be available in store, and vice versa.

Even though I've been buying store mounts, I really do hope Turbine will develop quests for the current store-only class mounts. How much fun it will be for the players to do those quests?! It will be the perfect soloing quest for level-cap players to spend time on. It will give people fun adventures. Turbine can even make it similar to craft guild rep, limited progress per-week sort of thing for the quests.

Alas, I doubt they will do so. I can see why Turbine being reluctant to do it. They are a business, and atm they are making a killing in store unique items such as fancy mounts and cosmetic clothes. The producer announced 2011 was the best year for LOTRO.

In the long run though, this game will get in trouble if it keeps introducing new grinds such as LI, and hope that will force people to buy items in the store. A better model, imho, may be selling mounts for much less $$. Make it account wide, or $4.99 per mount. Go the Zynga, IPhone app route. And make it so there is no monthly subscription at all.

I'm sitting on the sideline watching the evolving nature of mmorpg business model.