Thread: Tier 7 Stat tomes

I'm looking over the stat tomes now. Here's what bothered me: My rune keeper can get fate/will/vitality. That's nice. EXCEPT my legendary weapon can show up with Might/Parry/Agility. I don't care if people get stat tomes from the store, but I'm just twitching to find I can make my super-grand weapon & get stats that CLEARLY don't belong on a runekeeper. (This is also true for lore masters.) I don't mind random stats, but it is way past the time of making them at least something beneficial to the class in general.

Originally Posted by kerryak

Removing features (relic removal) and forcing a punishment (grind, for me... GRIND!!!!! mwahahaha) if the store-only option isn't purchased (to avoid said gring) is not a "reward" for sticking w/ Turbine through the transition. It's a clear sign, for all to see - this is the new model. Technically, it's a convenience - but legalese definitions only give a technical authority, not a moral one.

Just curious, which would you rather have.

1. Relics that go to level 7 and require 2160 tier 1 relics to obtain (5 tier 1 for tier 2, x4x4x3x3x3) and get nothing back at reforges (unless you have a store only scroll)
2. Relics that go to level 10 and require 25000 tier 1 relics to obtain (5x5x5x5x5x2x2x2 (I think the last 2 levels only required 2 of the previous for a combine and you have to assume tier 10 would have required 2 as well) but you get the relics back when you reforge or deconstruct at max level

I will happily take scenario 1, even with the 195 TP store only scroll.

Originally Posted by Lightdeath

When I'm doing tasks and I hit my limit, a message pops up saying "Go to the LOTRO store to reset your limit."

This really gets on my nerves. The little store icon will come up and I'll think "woohoo!" more points, and then the stupid "go to store to reset your tasks" will come up. I hate it.

Originally Posted by Perenth

I'm sitting on the sideline watching the evolving nature of mmorpg business model.

Maybe you having only one year invested in this game rather than nearly five makes that easier for you.

Others have more invested and are sorry to see it all gradually disintegrating because some folks just want to buy things rather than achieve them.

Please note: This is not a "quiet noob!" sentiment. But by your own admission you are just "sitting on the sidelines". . . some of us don't feel like we're on the sidelines because we're much more invested in the game.

To answer your question: I personally would prefer to see everything in game to be available in store, and vice versa.

No offense, but to me, a game that operates like that would have no integrity as a game. So your concept of what constitutes a game as such is so different from mine that no productive conversation is likely to be possible.

A game where all rewards for achievement are available to those who just want to hand over cash. . . sorry, just not a game (of any integrity) to me. And I suspect that at this point you're leaving even the most casual of players behind as your vision for the game is demonstrated to be quite "on the fringe."

I can see where, with a tabula rasa, you might think your concept has merit. But like so many concepts that look good on paper, I think you'd find that such a model wouldn't mesh well with human nature. People would balk at the idea of playing a game where all achievement was simply for sale. To way too many people there would be no point to the game and it would just be a bizarre, expensive version of Second Life.

--H

Originally Posted by BBSoonerOU

I know I kind of snipped your post apart, but I just wanted to mention that MMOs with successful "raid content" are driven by challenge and reward. If anybody and everybody could join at the drop of a hat then one of those two categories would suffer: either the scale of the challenge would be lessened, or the loot would be obsolete if anybody could go which diminishes reward.

This sounds like the Everquest forum raider mantra, which has pretty much killed EQ. Raid was supposed to promote social interaction between players. It is not just about reward, but more about fun of grouping with a large group of people. It should be about skill, but reward? Meh.. not in my book. This is my personal opinion, and what you've stated is also your personal opinion.

I was a raider in EQ and leading raiders there still ask me to return. I simply don't have time anymore. It's very sad that raids are no longer a social opportunity for me there. If only I can dress up in raid gear and group with them instantly in a raid, we'd all be very happy.

Also, if this is how you honestly feel, then stat tomes have done more damage to the game than I previously thought. If anybody is under the impression that a store item is required to run content in their classes deemed role, then Turbine has failed miserably.

I am an ex-EQ raider. I know the effect of raid gear.

Originally Posted by PerinStone

Whether or not the stat tomes can be gotten in-game, and I will readily admit that they can't be reasonably obtained, nothing is being gated by the tomes no matter how much some people want to argue that.

Gated might be too strong of a word, perhaps 'balanced' would be a better explanation of the relationship between new end-game difficulty content and maxed out tomes.

In the end, it works out to the same thing. People with largely identical gear and traits are being turned down in favor of the one who bought more stat tomes. Now I'll admit that this is a community issue more than a game issue, but I still place the bulk of the blame at Turbine's feet for not making the tomes reasonably available through in-game means.

That seems to be what everyone is worried about. How far will they take it. I'd be fine if they sold raid gear in the store, assuming it was still available in game.

If one piece of gear could be acquired via three runs of a relevant instance, or through the store, I would call that reasonable. But with the direction Turbine seems to be taking, I'd expect the in-game gear to cost 1500 barter tokens per piece, awarded at the rate of one token per 6-man and two per raid.

I have faith that they won't push the store to such an extent that it forces you to buy things to compete.

Last year I would have agreed with you. Today, that's just another line to be crossed, just as nearly every other line has been crossed without a second thought.

Some people are afraid that they will and others think they have done so already. I would bet there are more people in my position than the others, even if they are less vocal on the forum.

I agree that those complaining about this are a vocal minority, but it was also a vocal minority who tried to say that the store would not remain as the cosmetics and account-side purchases that it was during the F2P beta. Since we're having this discussion about stat tomes, I think it's obvious which side was correct in that discussion.

Originally Posted by kerryak

Other games offer new features, for free, that are only available in-game for a TP cost not in-line w/ 500 TP / month subscription fee. (maybe, if features like map cooldown, add'l milestones, and vault space were for an account, rather than by toon, the price would be in-line - if you only play one toon, as I do, it *is* inline. But in other games, I can enjoy fast travel on all my toons w/o visiting a store 8 times for 8 toons. They give it to me, b/c it enhances my gaming experience, and I like myself an enhanced gaming experience, especially one I'm PAYING for.

So, I'm curious...if you're getting it for free, why are you paying for it?


Oh, and one other thing. You don't have to log in once a month to get your 500 TP. That was BEFORE F2P started that you needed to log in for the BONUS points per month.

Originally Posted by Perenth

This sounds like the Everquest forum raider mantra, which has pretty much killed EQ. Raid was supposed to promote social interaction between players. It is not just about reward, but more about fun of grouping with a large group of people. It should be about skill, but reward? Meh.. not in my book. This is my personal opinion, and what you've stated is also your personal opinion.

I was a raider in EQ and leading raiders there still ask me to return. I simply don't have time anymore. It's very sad that raids are no longer a social opportunity for me there. If only I can dress up in raid gear and group with them instantly in a raid, we'd all be very happy.

I am an ex-EQ raider. I know the effect of raid gear.

Actually EQ, and many highly successful thought dead MMOs, are still kicking. WoW has the most raid-centric community of all, but the only thing dropping their sub numbers is just the natural aging of the game.

We'll just have to agree to disagree what raids are "supposed" to be. If raids are primarily for social interaction, then the same can be accomplished by joining a new regional chat, or a new kin. I socialize with people from most MMOs I've played with on a daily basis, but I never looked to raids for that.

Originally Posted by Hurin

No offense, but to me, a game that operates like that would have no integrity as a game. So your concept of what constitutes a game as such is so different from mine that no productive conversation is likely to be possible.

A game where all rewards for achievement are available to those who just want to hand over cash. . . sorry, just not a game (of any integrity) to me. And I suspect that at this point you're leaving even the most casual of players behind as your vision for the game is demonstrated to be quite "on the fringe."

I can see where, with a tabula rasa, you might think your concept has merit. But like so many concepts that look good on paper, I think you'd find that such a model wouldn't mesh well with human nature. People would balk at the idea of playing a game where all achievement was simply for sale. To way too many people there would be no point to the game and it would just be a bizarre, expensive version of Second Life.

--H

While tangential, I think one of the reasons why it is so easy to get so annoyed (at least in my case) about the path of the store whatever the most recent change is the fact that I really would like to play a Tolkien/ME MMO. That's about it in terms of computer games except other LotR/Middle-Earth games. The fact that there is no other choice available in this medium is frustrating when I see changes I don't agree with.

Originally Posted by Hurin

Maybe you having only one year invested in this game rather than nearly five makes that easier for you.

Others have more invested and are sorry to see it all gradually disintegrating because some folks just want to buy things rather than achieve them.

While I may have missed a reference somewhere, I just thought I'd mention if you are referencing the Join Date, that really doesn't mean much. Whether CM transfers or players such as I that for variety of reasons post on a different account than their main account with a different join date (which can be quite different).

Originally Posted by Perenth

First of all a side note: If you are talking "advantage", In-Game exclusive items such as raid gear offers an advantage to those who have hours to grind.

Translated: Rewards that people achieve through gameplay make them more powerful relative to people who do not achieve them and who would rather just hand Turbine $15 for the same reward. Don't let people who would rather play the game and achieve within it have rewards that I can't just buy!

It's quite the bizarre "anything goes" era we're in now where folks equate people playing the game and achieving things within it as somehow garnering an "advantage" relative to those who would rather just buy things. And then they take this bizarre premise, and use it to argue that fairness demands that they should just be able to purchase those advantages outright because they're busy people who don't want to play the game in the fashion it's currently designed.

Again, reductio ad absurdum, they might as well just sell levels or leveled up characters so that players with "hours to grind" aren't at an advantage.

Once upon a time, spending one's time playing the game and earning rewards within it was something to be encouraged. Indeed, it was the only way to achieve anything in the game. Now, somehow, the presence of the store makes people feel entitled to any reward they want, sans actually playing the game. I had seen people argue that there should be multiple routes to the same endgame-level rewards. Now we have the next logical progression: "Those who can play more than me have an advantage over me. So let me just buy everything."

--H

Originally Posted by StavroMuellerBeta

Gated might be too strong of a word, perhaps 'balanced' would be a better explanation of the relationship between new end-game difficulty content and maxed out tomes.

In the end, it works out to the same thing. People with largely identical gear and traits are being turned down in favor of the one who bought more stat tomes. Now I'll admit that this is a community issue more than a game issue, but I still place the bulk of the blame at Turbine's feet for not making the tomes reasonably available through in-game means.

I'm sorry but I don't believe this ever happens. This is a worst case scenario about the evils of the tomes. With all of the choices in armour, jewelry, and traits you will never get 2 people with the same setup to be able to say that one person is wanteds in the raid and the other is staying at home because one bought tomes and the other didn't.

Last year I would have agreed with you. Today, that's just another line to be crossed, just as nearly every other line has been crossed without a second thought.

I agree that those complaining about this are a vocal minority, but it was also a vocal minority who tried to say that the store would not remain as the cosmetics and account-side purchases that it was during the F2P beta. Since we're having this discussion about stat tomes, I think it's obvious which side was correct in that discussion.

There's nothing that they have done with the store that I see as crossing a line (with the possible exception of the lootbox keys) so I can't get too upset by it. By this point next year, maybe they will have done something that pushes me over the fence and I will be on your side, but I have faith that it won't happen.

I hope I won't be eating crow in 6 months for several reasons.

Originally Posted by Perenth

Speaking as a casual player, I am very happy the store has these. Just bought it for all of my toons.

For those of you who cry a river in these threads, think about people like us, please. Maybe Turbine put it in the store to help folks like us who are ultra casual players. Maybe the reason they don't make these abundantly available in game because then it will only raise the par so that casuals like us will no longer be able to group.

At level 48 after 19 months of play, I'm soloing level 43 quests and getting #### gear. Without these stat tombs, I will not be able to tank for a level-appropriate group.
[...]

But then what about the other ultra casual players who don't (for whatever reason) have the desire or ability to purchase stat tomes? How do they make up the difference between themselves and players such as yourself? More importantly, how do they do so in-game?

Originally Posted by Perenth

First of all a side note: If you are talking "advantage", In-Game exclusive items such as raid gear offers an advantage to those who have hours to grind.

[...]

In the long run though, this game will get in trouble if it keeps introducing new grinds such as LI, and hope that will force people to buy items in the store. A better model, imho, may be selling mounts for much less $$. Make it account wide, or $4.99 per mount. Go the Zynga, IPhone app route. And make it so there is no monthly subscription at all.

I'm sitting on the sideline watching the evolving nature of mmorpg business model.

Regarding raid gear, at least those players played the game to acquire their advantage. As Hurin has eloquently pointed out, for many people one of the key characteristics of a game is that you improve and advance by playing the game itself, not by spending money outside of the game.

Regarding the Zynga/app route for game development, I recently read a very good article in which the author expressed a fear that we may be headed towards a future in which all video games on all platforms are developed with minimal expense and designed with micro-transactions in mind, first and foremost. (Enjoy playing an FPS? The only way to get a new gun is to buy it with RL cash. Like playing "Madden" but want to play as the Patriots? Shell out $5 and you've unlocked the Patriots - for this season's version of the game.)

I hope that the author was wrong, but he made some very good points that it may become harder and harder to find investors willing to shell out millions of dollars to develop the next big MMO, or single-player RPG, or multi-player FPS, or any big budget game when phone/tablet/Facebook apps are much cheaper and far more profitable to develop. This may sound like fear-mongering, but every time one of us decides to spend extra money to buy extra in-game items or boosts in a game that we've already paid for access to, or drops $5 to get a cute new animal in Farmville, we're putting another tiny nail in the coffin of interesting, innovative, story- and content-driven games.

Originally Posted by PerinStone

Just curious, which would you rather have.

1. Relics that go to level 7 and require 2160 tier 1 relics to obtain (5 tier 1 for tier 2, x4x4x3x3x3) and get nothing back at reforges (unless you have a store only scroll)
2. Relics that go to level 10 and require 25000 tier 1 relics to obtain (5x5x5x5x5x2x2x2 (I think the last 2 levels only required 2 of the previous for a combine and you have to assume tier 10 would have required 2 as well) but you get the relics back when you reforge or deconstruct at max level

I will happily take scenario 1, even with the 195 TP store only scroll.

Considering that there are Remarkable Relics, we really have 8 tiers now instead of 7. And we had 7 tiers instead of the advertised 6 when the new system first came out, thanks to Extraordinary Relics. The main exception is that the additional, even harder to obtain, top-tier relics can't actually be used in relic combinations to get to the next tier, and in many cases the regular tier 7 relics are quite inferior to the "once you make them they're nothing but shard fodder" relics (and the store-only relics).

Furthermore, why are those our only choices? It was completely within Turbine's power to both lessen the relic grind and still allow us to keep the relics that we'd already obtained without having to spend cash in the Store. For those that prefer to avoid the Store, they're going to hit a point at which the amount of relics they've had to regrind will surpass the amount of relics they would have grinded under the old system - not to mention the fact that the new system is far more expensive (not really a concern to a lot of people, myself included, but I can still recall a time when I wouldn't have been able to shell out 12g* in one sitting, and I'm sure that there are quite a few players to whom 12g is not an insignificant amount of in-game money.)

*The average amount it cost my 3 level 75s to combine the relics they'd acquired prior to getting their 75 2nd Age weapons.

Originally Posted by PerinStone

Just curious, which would you rather have.

1. Relics that go to level 7 and require 2160 tier 1 relics to obtain (5 tier 1 for tier 2, x4x4x3x3x3) and get nothing back at reforges (unless you have a store only scroll)
2. Relics that go to level 10 and require 25000 tier 1 relics to obtain (5x5x5x5x5x2x2x2 (I think the last 2 levels only required 2 of the previous for a combine and you have to assume tier 10 would have required 2 as well) but you get the relics back when you reforge or deconstruct at max level

I will happily take scenario 1, even with the 195 TP store only scroll.

3: a legendary item system that makes me want to login again

but since I play SWTOR for a legendary item system that's fun, let's try

4: scroll available in-game for <insert barter of the month>.



Still a grind, but not as bad, and not as in-your-face.







--
I preferred the old system, TBH - but I'll be the first to admit that's b/c I played for years and had enough tier max-tier relics to choke a donkey. Granted, I did so b/c that's the only thing I had to spend my time doing in-game when I still played LOTRO daily, but that's entirely another topic.

Originally Posted by GregJL

So, I'm curious...if you're getting it for free, why are you paying for it?


Oh, and one other thing. You don't have to log in once a month to get your 500 TP. That was BEFORE F2P started that you needed to log in for the BONUS points per month.

OK, to be clear I was referring to paying for SWTOR for game-enhancements.

I'm not *currently* paying USD for Turbine points. I have spent TP for one character, Hataru, w/ the 500 TP I get for the lifetime subscription I mentioned. That 500 TP does not provide 30min milestone, multiple milestones, extra vault space, etc to my other toons - just my one. Hence, it's not enough TP. My point is that Turbine introduces perks as store purchases that other games include in their subscriptions, and I consider my lifetime account (and VIP accounts, obviously) to be subscriptions.

--

And thanks for the heads up, although my total is different than my wifes account by about 2 months, which is the number of months *I* have not logged in. Those months were right before RoI launch. I played during the F2P launch, in fact, I was blogging about it.

Originally Posted by Fipiara

I just thought I'd mention if you are referencing the Join Date, that really doesn't mean much. Whether CM transfers or players such as I that for variety of reasons post on a different account than their main account with a different join date (which can be quite different).

Ah yes. My mistake. At one point I was actually the one correcting folks about the CM/European transfer dates. Now I have been hoisted on my own petard!

Thanks for keeping me honest.

Originally Posted by Hurin

Maybe you having only one year invested in this game rather than nearly five makes that easier for you.

Others have more invested and are sorry to see it all gradually disintegrating because some folks just want to buy things rather than achieve them.

Please note: This is not a "quiet noob!" sentiment. But by your own admission you are just "sitting on the sidelines". . . some of us don't feel like we're on the sidelines because we're much more invested in the game.


No offense, but to me, a game that operates like that would have no integrity as a game. So your concept of what constitutes a game as such is so different from mine that no productive conversation is likely to be possible.

A game where all rewards for achievement are available to those who just want to hand over cash. . . sorry, just not a game (of any integrity) to me. And I suspect that at this point you're leaving even the most casual of players behind as your vision for the game is demonstrated to be quite "on the fringe."

I can see where, with a tabula rasa, you might think your concept has merit. But like so many concepts that look good on paper, I think you'd find that such a model wouldn't mesh well with human nature. People would balk at the idea of playing a game where all achievement was simply for sale. To way too many people there would be no point to the game and it would just be a bizarre, expensive version of Second Life.

--H

I actually have a lot invested in this game. I'm a founder with 2 life accounts. I have only played my current main for 19 months. The rest of the time I was bouncing between lots of mmorgps, mostly Everquest, my original hardcore game.

You may have a lot invested in this game. So did I, not only in Lotro, but also in EQ, and I saw how EQ declined. This in fact makes me much more optimistic on LOTRO. I see LoTRO having a chance to progress while EQ is dead.

The real integrity of a game is FUN. Without fun, a game is not a game. A game achieves fun by having challenge, adventure, social fun, artistic sandboxes. The idea of progression is also nice, but should not be taken to an extreme at the expense of other fun factors in an mmorpg. The saddest part for me in EQ was that social separation once someone no longer has the time to grind/"progress". Maybe you are familiar with the AA and gear and progression quests necessary to grind to raid in EQ? All hundreds of hours just to keep up the social fun. Now I just keep in touch with my EQ friends in LOTRO's in-game mail. Which I'm sure is fine by Turbine.

A game's job is to draw in players for revenue. In this sense, witness the producer's letter about how 2011 was the best year.

You can call my thinking "the fringe". I'm always the fringe! But over time I always seen my "fringe" becoming the new "mainstream". Weird. Time will tell.

EQ2 and DC Universe just went FTP. So will European Aion be in Feb.

I'm having fun watching when my fringe may become the next main. Keep in mind Zynga founder just became pretty rich. IPAd appas are all free. Check out free app games like Dragonville. It has "progression" in hatching all sorts of dragon egges, building up a world... Progression in Skyrim is also great. However, those games are soloing games. In a mmorpg where players enjoy socialization, it is probably a good idea to make it so people can continue their social circle with some help from the store. In fact, the fact that people love to stay with their social group may be a big incentive for they to buy raid gear.

You seem to think gear is the "integrity" of progression. For many others, friendship formed is the progression. To each his own, I guess.

I am not holding my breath, but personally I think it's a wise move to sell raid gear in a store. As it is, people buy accounts, buy gear via farmers. Heh... I do wonder if some posters on EQ forum may be farmers trying to protect their turf.

Originally Posted by BBSoonerOU

Actually EQ, and many highly successful thought dead MMOs, are still kicking. WoW has the most raid-centric community of all, but the only thing dropping their sub numbers is just the natural aging of the game.

We'll just have to agree to disagree what raids are "supposed" to be. If raids are primarily for social interaction, then the same can be accomplished by joining a new regional chat, or a new kin. I socialize with people from most MMOs I've played with on a daily basis, but I never looked to raids for that.

If you want to talk about mmorpg history. Remember Ultima Online? It was the king of the jungle for its day, but fell. Every subsequent game has been defeated. I think WoW will be killed by the new free App type of free games via companies like Zynga. And a wise mmorpg will start studying Zynga and app games and change the gaming industry once more.

Even in EQ, the latest post on their forlorn forum that won echoing sentiments is about: social interaction, friends.

Originally Posted by PerinStone

Just curious, which would you rather have.

1. Relics that go to level 7 and require 2160 tier 1 relics to obtain (5 tier 1 for tier 2, x4x4x3x3x3) and get nothing back at reforges (unless you have a store only scroll)
2. Relics that go to level 10 and require 25000 tier 1 relics to obtain (5x5x5x5x5x2x2x2 (I think the last 2 levels only required 2 of the previous for a combine and you have to assume tier 10 would have required 2 as well) but you get the relics back when you reforge or deconstruct at max level

I will happily take scenario 1, even with the 195 TP store only scroll.

It's slightly off-topic, but since you brought it up, going to reply on this point.

You're making the mistake that people seem to make quite often when talking about the old relic system. It didn't take 5 tier 1 relics to get a single tier 2 relics on average, or for the other tiers. When you take into account the fact that you can get more than one relic when combining, and can get relics of higher tiers as well on crits, the average number of relics needed to get 1 relic of the next tier was ~2.5.

That means that to go to the imaginary "tier 10", you actually would need 2.5*2.5*2.5*2.5*2.5*2.5*2.5*2* 2=~2442 relics. Given that you keep those relics once you get them, and you didn't include the extraordinary relics in your calculations (and they removed multiple relics on crits in the new system), the old system is a similar if not cheaper cost to get 1 max tier relic.

When you take account of the fact that you keep your relics under the old system and start from scratch with the new one, I'd much rather take the old system.

Numbers are from here. There was a dev post at the time confirming that the numbers were very close to actual values. Unfortunately as Turbine purge all the posts every so often, it has been deleted.

Originally Posted by Perenth

You seem to think gear is the "integrity" of progression. For many others, friendship formed is the progression. To each his own, I guess.

You're aware, of course, that some "groups of friend" (like my kinship) would find your recommendations to be so damaging to the game that they would leave as a group and play other games that aren't so. . . damaged. Guess what, that's what about fifteen of my friends that I met in LotRO are currently doing (and our kinship is now defunct). And for several of them, stat tomes, store-exclusive relics, and the gradual intrusion of the "buy achievements" mindset were the explicitly stated reason.

Yes, these games are also about friendships. But it's troubling for me that you think that aspect of these games only suits your own arguments. That's far from the case.

But you seem to consider yourself somewhat of a visionary. I know better than to try to argue with those!

--H

Originally Posted by PerinStone

There's nothing that they have done with the store that I see as crossing a line

"Convenience not advantage" was a line Turbine set for themselves. I doubt anyone could reasonably argue that line hasn't been crossed (stat tomes, stacking morale pots, legacy scrolls, etc).

"Premium loot and rare gear are the rewards of adventure and are only obtainable through gameplay." Again, another line that Turbine drew in the sand just to look the other way while they step over it.

"You will keep all your membership privileges as long as you keep paying your monthly fee." The ability to skip the newbie zone was a membership privilege, as was the ability to unslot relics that are no longer available via in-game means. Both of these membership privileges were revoked.

Personally, I'm mostly fine with where the game is today, but what upsets me is the fact that Turbine went out of their way to outright lie about where they are taking the game. If they had said in the beginning that stat tomes would be store-exclusive, and that a few minor features would be revamped in such a way that they would be better suited for the store, that would have been fine. But they took the time to draw uncrossable lines, and crossed them anyway. Now that people are calling them out on this, they are doing their best to keep the facts hidden.

My problem is not with anything yet in the game, my problem is with their attitude about the whole thing.
Turbine: "We will do X, Y, and Z, but we will never do A, B, or C."
Two weeks later.
Turbine: "With our new revamp, we don't need X anymore, because we're giving you C as a store exclusive!"
Customers: "But you said you wouldn't do C, and what happened to X?"
Turbine: "What? We can't hear you. Here, let me move this thread down to this empty forum so you don't bother all the other customers who are trying to tell us how perfect we are. And if you discuss this topic anywhere else, we'll give you a warning for not keeping your comments in the main thread that nobody can find."

Originally Posted by Hurin

Translated: Rewards that people achieve through gameplay make them more powerful relative to people who do not achieve them and who would rather just hand Turbine $15 for the same reward. Don't let people who would rather play the game and achieve within it have rewards that I can't just buy!

Translation: Only people who spend mega hours grinding the same thing over and over again and call it an "achievement" may claim they are "playing" the game. Especially when they call it "hard work".

It's quite the bizarre "anything goes" era we're in now where folks equate people playing the game and achieving things within it as somehow garnering an "advantage" relative to those who would rather just buy things.

It's actually quite bizarre your paying $15 per month give you the right to demand all content to be catered to your idea, including denying other players their social fun in experiencing "raid content".

I guess if you ran a hotel, you will prefer someone paying $15 a month and sit in your hotel however many hours they wish. Customers who pay $15 need to sit around for 100 hours in your hotel to qualify to see a penthouse room. Customers who can not sit for 100 hours will never see the penthouse. Because your hotel is achievement! It's not just social, fun, exploration. A special section of your bus/hotel is off limits to certain lesser people.

Oh yes, those lesser people have their dirty money that they want to hand you for hanging out in that room with their friends. But you have integrity, and you say NO.

Guess there may be a new hotel down the road opening up soon.

Originally Posted by Perenth

Translation: Only people who spend mega hours grinding the same thing over and over again and call it an "achievement" may claim they are "playing" the game. Especially when they call it "hard work".

Clearly, objectively, "hours grinding" for "achievement" is "'playing' the game" infinitely more than pulling out a credit card and having things deposited on your character ever will be. That's where your contortions and analogies fly off the rails.

It's actually quite bizarre your paying $15 per month give you the right to demand all content to be catered to your idea, including denying other players their social fun in experiencing "raid content".

No amount of money would entitle me to demand such things. Nor am I "denying" anyone anything whatsoever. I merely point out that the presence of the store option puts folks like you in a bizarre state of mind and makes you feel entitled to purchase anything (as you yourself said) even if you never do a sing thing within the game.

I guess if you ran a hotel, you will prefer someone paying $15 a month and sit in your hotel however many hours they wish. Customers who pay $15 need to sit around for 100 hours in your hotel to qualify to see a penthouse room. Customers who can not sit for 100 hours will never see the penthouse. Because your hotel is achievement! It's not just social, fun, exploration. A special section of your bus/hotel is off limits to certain lesser people.

Your analogy is lacking (as conveniently self-serving ones usually are). Here's a more accurate one: The hotel you mention actually has a maze for an interior and is several hundred stories tall. And those customers aren't just "sitting around" for the month to see the penthouse but are making their way through the maze, perhaps picking up trinkets along the way all month long until they finally reach the "penthouse" achievement at the top. At times, the journey was fun, at times it was arduous, but each and every one of the people who make it to the penthouse feels that that they have acheived something and did what they had to do to reach it. But, of course, were you running the hotel, you'd offer that route, but then also just offer to take folks up in the elevator for $10. And then you'd wonder why nobody bothers to go see the penthouse anymore. The reason, of course is that the reward (the penthouse) was only worth doing because it was the only way to do it. When you cheapen it with the $10 opt-out, not only does the penthouse lose its alure as an achievement and people stop the arduous trek to it, but then people even stop buying it. Because, after all, it was only valuable and deemed a challenge to be overcome because it was difficult or time-consuming to achieve.

Oh yes, those lesser people have their dirty money that they want to hand you for hanging out in that room with their friends. But you have integrity, and you say NO.

Nobody is stopping you from hanging out with your friends. I'm still not quite sure why you need +70 in stats to do so. As I said, I've found your argument that you simply can't tank without stat tomes and would then be left behind by your friends. . . not very compelling (just as I've never felt the argument that raid leaders will leave tome-less players behind to be particularly compelling). It's a unique argument so far. But I think it may just be serving as a means for you to introduce this altruistic/moral aspect to your argument where it's all about keeping friends together (etc.). And that just seems. . . contrived.

--H

Originally Posted by Hurin

But, of course, were you running the hotel, you'd offer that route, but then also just offer to take folks up in the elevator for $10. And then you'd wonder why nobody bothers to go see the penthouse anymore.

Well said. Before your illustration gets ripped to shreds as 'unrealistic', I'll toss in a real life example.

Reaching the peak of Mt. Everest is a lifelong goal of many who get there. But if someone stuck a ski lift on it...

Originally Posted by StavroMuellerBeta

Well said. Before your illustration gets ripped to shreds as 'unrealistic'

Heh, the original analogy upon which I was commenting was itself quite unrealistic (indeed, bizarre). But I worked with what I had before me.

Originally Posted by Perenth

I actually have a lot invested in this game. I'm a founder with 2 life accounts. I have only played my current main for 19 months. The rest of the time I was bouncing between lots of mmorgps, mostly Everquest, my original hardcore game.

You may have a lot invested in this game. So did I, not only in Lotro, but also in EQ, and I saw how EQ declined. This in fact makes me much more optimistic on LOTRO. I see LoTRO having a chance to progress while EQ is dead.

The real integrity of a game is FUN. Without fun, a game is not a game. A game achieves fun by having challenge, adventure, social fun, artistic sandboxes. The idea of progression is also nice, but should not be taken to an extreme at the expense of other fun factors in an mmorpg. The saddest part for me in EQ was that social separation once someone no longer has the time to grind/"progress". Maybe you are familiar with the AA and gear and progression quests necessary to grind to raid in EQ? All hundreds of hours just to keep up the social fun. Now I just keep in touch with my EQ friends in LOTRO's in-game mail. Which I'm sure is fine by Turbine.

A game's job is to draw in players for revenue. In this sense, witness the producer's letter about how 2011 was the best year.

You can call my thinking "the fringe". I'm always the fringe! But over time I always seen my "fringe" becoming the new "mainstream". Weird. Time will tell.

EQ2 and DC Universe just went FTP. So will European Aion be in Feb.

I'm having fun watching when my fringe may become the next main. Keep in mind Zynga founder just became pretty rich. IPAd appas are all free. Check out free app games like Dragonville. It has "progression" in hatching all sorts of dragon egges, building up a world... Progression in Skyrim is also great. However, those games are soloing games. In a mmorpg where players enjoy socialization, it is probably a good idea to make it so people can continue their social circle with some help from the store. In fact, the fact that people love to stay with their social group may be a big incentive for they to buy raid gear.

You seem to think gear is the "integrity" of progression. For many others, friendship formed is the progression. To each his own, I guess.

I am not holding my breath, but personally I think it's a wise move to sell raid gear in a store. As it is, people buy accounts, buy gear via farmers. Heh... I do wonder if some posters on EQ forum may be farmers trying to protect their turf.

Look, I'm not trying to be rude here but wow, are you for real? I don't get your argument at all. You don't have time to raid but you want to buy and dress up in raid gear. Why? If you aren't raiding you don't really need it to do anything else in the game. Is it just so you can dress up? There are cosmetics for that. Your socializing argument doesn't make sense. Why do you need bought raid gear to do that? Is it to try and look impressive? How impressed do you think people will be when they found out all your fancy raid gear was bought in a store?

Whether you like it or not, part of this game, and most mmos in general, is about character progression. It's about the journey. Starting off meek and meager and becoming mighty. If you just buy that it kind of defeats the purpose of playing in the first place. If you want to chat and socialize there are plenty of social type free to play mmos that I think are better suited to what you are talking about.

And I have to ask... Since you seem to spend an awfully large amount of cash in the store and admit that you would have no problems buying raid gear, what about gold? Have you/Do you buy gold? In this game or any other mmo? If you don't then explain to me why it's ok to buy raid gear but not gold. I'd like to hear the difference.

A little off topic, but what about single player games? Do you just put in a cheat code and god mode your way through cause it's more fun than to boringly grind your way through the game? Just trying to get an idea of your character is all. Again, not trying to be rude but I just don't get it.

Originally Posted by Hurin

Obviously, I can't stop anyone from saying whatever they want. But it would be great if we didn't bog this thread down with the same old complaints about the prevalence of store advertising, or the overall distaste some folks have for the F2P model.

The "First Principle"
First, I need to create a bit of "short-hand." To my mind, the "first principle" at play here has always been that advancing your character and gaining stats/skills/ability/resilience/power should be obtained through playing the game. But, if Turbine's bottom line requires that this principle be violated and that they sell such things (in addition to all the profitable fluff/cosmetics) the nature of the game as a game should at least require them to make those same character enhancements available through gameplay.

Despite the assertions of a couple people in this thread, nobody actually familiar with the drop rate considers these stat increases to be available through gameplay.

As long as they're not required to complete content, they don't cross a line.
This is an argument of convenience for those who only play the game in a certain way. It's fine that they aren't affected personally. More power to them (for TP of course!). But it willfully misses the point. A game where advancement is earned not through playing the game but (exclusively!) by laying down cash is no longer a game in the eyes of a great many people. Nobody can seriously say that the stat tomes --as store exclusives aren't a violation of that principle. So they invent this arbitrary gauge by which they measure how badly the principle is being violated for their own personal use, and then apply that standard across the board to everyone. But, alas, the fact remains that the principle is being violated.

It reminds me of that old story about Churchill. At a fancy meal he playfully asks the lady seated next to him: "My dear lady, would you sleep with me for one million pounds?" The lady gives it some thought and then replies: "Well, sir, I believe I would." So Churchill then says: "My dear lady, would you sleep with me for one hundred pounds?" The lady, aghast, replies: "Mr. Prime Minister! Do you think me a prostitute!?!" And Churchill replies: "We have already established that you are, my dear lady. Now we are merely haggling over price."

Once you say: "Yes, they are selling advancement exclusively in the store, but it's not required, so it's okay". . . you've already conceded violation of the first principle. Now you're just establishing your own personal threshold for how far you're willing to have first principles violated.

And, of course, via reductio ad absurdum, we could argue that Turbine could add "Swords of Instant Death to Anything in the Game" exclusively to the store and as long as they still allowed us to complete content without it, by the logic of those making the counter-argument above, such a store exclusive would be just fine. But, of course, it wouldn't be.

Since this is a PvE game, they don't cross a line. I don't care what other characters have.
This also willfully misses the point. No, we don't compete with each other directly in that we aren't beating each other up in the game with the items/stats/enhancement we buy in the store. But, of course, this argument only suits those of a certain playstyle and ignores the playstyle of others who take the "first principle" seriously. In other words: People that play a game in order to maximize their characters' potential wish to do so through playing the game (while still spending plenty on fluff/cosmetics/convenience). It's fine that not everyone plays the game like that, but that doesn't render the violation of the "first principle" any less egregious. It just renders certain people apathetic to the violation of the principle.

I think I detect a fallacy in your agrgument here. If you and I are going from place A to place B, and you choose to walk while I take the bus, is this an issue? I would assert that in the normal scheme of things it is not. However, if places A and B are the start and finish lines of a marathon in which we are both entrants, then clearly it is.

The big question here is whether of not LotRO is the equivalent of a "marathon". I do not see it as such, while I suspect that you would disagree. However, even if it we were to agree that it is, then there is still another case. What if you are a competitor but I am a mere spectator? In that case, you are competing against the other entrants, but I am free to make my way to the finish line by whatever means I choose, perhaps so that having observed your start I can cheer your trimphant arrival.

I believe that we are in a state whereby the adherents of the "First Principle" are free to act and entrants in the LotRO marathon. Those who view themselves as the spectators are equally free to pursue their own goals by whatever means are available. I'm afraid I still fail to see how the existence of the one group adversely affects the other, except insofar as to cause a degree of moral indignation based on whether or not one views that "First Principle" as sacrosanct.

Originally Posted by Hurin

Turbine needs to make money or we'll never make it to Mordor! So, I'm okay with this.
Yes, Turbine needs to make money. And, by all accounts, the store model has been very successful. Which is great! I like Turbine and I like this game. But people are setting up a false choice here when they say that violating the "first principle" is necessary for Turbine to make money. First, it's highly doubtful that the Store Model stops making substantial amounts of money when you take any one "violating" item out of it. Obviously, they still makes tremendous amounts of money on all the things they sell: Fluff and convenience (including character enhancers that are still available through gameplay and therefore don't violate the "first Principle").

Turbine (and every other business operating under this model) are on record as saying that their goal with the F2P model is to "push the envelope" regarding what they can sell and what they can't. The fact that there is even an "envelope" to "push" establishes that there is a "first principle" to be taken into account. . . otherwise, heck, they could just sell level 75 toons outright, the raid armour sets, and even "swords of instant boss death" exclusively in the store.

In essence, Turbine knows that violating that principle to some degree, a little bit at a time, will bring them increased profits above what they could make while strictly adhering to it. The degree to which they can and will violate that principle, and the pace at which they do so, is entirely dependent on where its playerbase "draws the line" and where even those who would normally make excuses for them and rationalize prior violations sit up and take notice.

So. . . anyways. . .

As others have said, the main crux of the "violation" here is that they are, in reality, store exclusives. If these stat tomes were actually (truly) obtainable in the game and the store was (truly) only making them more conveniently available, there would be no issue.

I'm sure we'll continue to see "they're not required to complete content" and "we're not competing with each other" again and again. But those seeing the bigger picture here realize that such arguments miss the forest for the trees.

Best Regards,

Hurin

I fear we have to agree to disagree, which is fine as long as we respect each other's pont of view. I admire your purity of purpose, and I will admit that given my preference, I would have preferred to see the halcyon days of the solely subscription model to have continued. However, since those days are long gone, I am happy to make the necessary compropomises. If there are people happy to subsidise their fellows by making frequent and profilgate purchases of Turbine Points, then I for one am grateful.

The only way I can see to reconcile the 2 sides of my (undoubtedly flawed) marathon analogy is to separate the community into VIP and F2P/Premium servers. (Or perhaps "First Principle" and "Gross Moral Turpitude" servers ). That way those who wish to remain pure could do so untainted by by the laxity of others. However, I do feel that would not be a good solution for a number of reasons. It would however be interesting to see the effect if the rate of introduction of new content into the 2 types of server were made dependent on their profitablility. That could provide some fascinating insights.

Originally Posted by Hurin

Clearly, objectively, "hours grinding" for "achievement" is "'playing' the game" infinitely more than pulling out a credit card and having things deposited on your character ever will be. That's where your contortions and analogies fly off the rails.

Nice of you to start using these adjectives such as "contortions" to slime my reasoning. You had begun with "bizarre" a few posts back, and I had actually borrowed your slime to sling back at ya. Now allow me to do the same thing again. You pulled out your credit card to sign up for $15 a month, then proceed to demand access to what you feel you are entitled to in game. You pulled out a credit card to pay a monthly fee, because you can afford to occupy the game with hours of your time. So that even as you enjoy more content in the game, other people may not skip any grind.

But you, sir, will want to color my pulling out a credit card to skip the grind as somewhat unworthy, ah. contortions and analogies fly off the rails. Yes sir.

You really expect everyone to "play" according to your standard.

No amount of money would entitle me to demand such things. Nor am I "denying" anyone anything whatsoever.

Two negatives in your sentences. "No amount of money entitles" blah blah. Then you claim you're not "denying". Which point do you have?

I merely point out that the presence of the store option puts folks like you in a bizarre state of mind and makes you feel entitled to purchase anything (as you yourself said) even if you never do a sing thing within the game.

Ah, back to "bizarre state of mind". I'm trying not to borrow your word this time. It's your view. But...

What makes you think people never do a thing within the game? Lol. Why are we paying to play? Do you think I just paid to own some a few pixels? That would be pretty stupid. We are all playing this game. Some of us don't have time to grind. We have different ideas of what we enjoy. An mmorpg and its store is the way to go to customize player choices in a game.

Your analogy is lacking (as conveniently self-serving ones usually are). Here's a more accurate one: The hotel you mention actually has a maze for an interior and is several hundred stories tall. And those customers aren't just "sitting around" for the month to see the penthouse but are making their way through the maze, perhaps picking up trinkets along the way all month long until they finally reach the "penthouse" achievement at the top.

Beautifully written, yet I am sorry you just don't get it.

When we get to a raid level, we have been through a lot of winding maze. We have leveled and built up our character. The reason it's taking me so long to level up is I'm doing every quest I can. I have seen the valleys in slow progression. In fact, I got 2 characters to kindred with Mathon rep items that my main picked up. I have enjoyed going slowly, and taking my time in seeing every corner of the world here in Lotro that I care to see. I have helped lower level people do group quest to the point I die and lose 200 silver on repair when I only had 45 minutes to play. How do you deem what other people do? Why do you only see your own "worthiness"?

At times, the journey was fun, at times it was arduous, but each and every one of the people who make it to the penthouse feels that that they have acheived something and did what they had to do to reach it.

When I do join a raid, what makes you think I will not see defeat? And hard-won triumph? Do you even raid to understand what a raid involves?

But, of course, were you running the hotel, you'd offer that route, but then also just offer to take folks up in the elevator for $10. And then you'd wonder why nobody bothers to go see the penthouse anymore.

Oh really? Last I heard people paid a lot more than $10 more to stay at penthouses.

The reason, of course is that the reward (the penthouse) was only worth doing because it was the only way to do it.

You are saying the only way to get to a penthouse is via sitting for 100 hours. I hope you run that hotel.

When you cheapen it with the $10 opt-out, not only does the penthouse lose its alure as an achievement and people stop the arduous trek to it, but then people even stop buying it. Because, after all, it was only valuable and deemed a challenge to be overcome because it was difficult or time-consuming to achieve.

.

Once again, you refuse the right for other players to customize their game play. You various slanderous adjectives used against my view are intentionally cheapening my journey in this game with your slander. To insist on your "point of view".

Nobody is stopping you from hanging out with your friends.

You forget I'd like to experience raid instanced with my friends. Some of my friends have lots of time to play and can end up way ahead of me in tiers of raid. They wish I can join them, but my current gear will not do in those zones. You should see the times raids are short on people.

I would simply rather skip rolls on loot.

I think it may just be serving as a means for you to introduce this altruistic/moral aspect to your argument where it's all about keeping friends together (etc.).

--H

And you would rather call me lots of other names. :P No wonder I don't bother posting on forums. Have a nice day.

Originally Posted by StavroMuellerBeta

Reaching the peak of Mt. Everest is a lifelong goal of many who get there. But if someone stuck a ski lift on it...

If someone stuck a ski lift on it, it is their choice. It is not your right to do anything about it.

Originally Posted by mjk47

I think I detect a fallacy in your agrgument here. If you and I are going from place A to place B, and you choose to walk while I take the bus, is this an issue? I would assert that in the normal scheme of things it is not. However, if places A and B are the start and finish lines of a marathon in which we are both entrants, then clearly it is.

The big question here is whether of not LotRO is the equivalent of a "marathon". I do not see it as such, while I suspect that you would disagree. However, even if it we were to agree that it is, then there is still another case. What if you are a competitor but I am a mere spectator? In that case, you are competing against the other entrants, but I am free to make my way to the finish line by whatever means I choose, perhaps so that having observed your start I can cheer your trimphant arrival.

I believe that we are in a state whereby the adherents of the "First Principle" are free to act and entrants in the LotRO marathon. Those who view themselves as the spectators are equally free to pursue their own goals by whatever means are available. I'm afraid I still fail to see how the existence of the one group adversely affects the other, except insofar as to cause a degree of moral indignation based on whether or not one views that "First Principle" as sacrosanct.

So, the "spectators" of the marathon in your analogy are just folks who aren't taking part in a "race" but are free to make their way to the "finish line" however they wish. So, just to be clear, those who feel that character advancement shouldn't be sold in the store (or, at last, not exclusively) are those running the marathon. And the spectators are those who want to purchase such things in the store, correct?

Well, the first issue with your analogy is that it's not just about a destination (the finish line) but all the rewards the runners receive (even beyond the winner who gets the gold medal and the media adoration, etc.). It leaves out that many of those spectators see what the runners have earned and say: "I want that. But I don't want to have to actually endure the marathon." And, to expand your analogy further, those actually running the marathon train for the marathon, they get faster, they increase their endurance, they get leaner and stronger. . . so to continue with your analogy, those spectators at the finish line are also saying: "Hey, I want all the benefits that the runners accrue to themselves through their actions, but I don't want to actually be bothered to train or run the marathon itself."

To be honest though, there are so many places where the analogy is inapt that I can't work my way forward with it from there. It's such a specific analogy that it's impossible to work in the concepts of achievement within a game being something that should be earned through playing. And since those are lacking, and it's beyond me to squeeze them into it, I guess I just have to leave it there.

I would take issue, once again, however with this contention that competition (a "race" or "marathon") need be present at all for the "first principle" to apply. Whether we're in competition with each other or not (direct or otherwise), a game as a game needs to maintain a certain amount of integrity and be consistent in that achievement in the game not be tainted by factors outside the game. You yourself expressed a preference for the game prior, when only what one did within the game mattered.

Sorry if that wasn't all that cogent. I'm running out of steam here. You can only keep up these sorts of endeavors for so long before exhaustion sets in.

--H

Originally Posted by Perenth

You forget I'd like to experience raid instanced with my friends. Some of my friends have lots of time to play and can end up way ahead of me in tiers of raid. They wish I can join them, but my current gear will not do in those zones. You should see the times raids are short on people.

You can join raids just fine with crafted gear, they don't require raid gear. How else would people get raid gear if raids needed you to have it first?

Before ROI, stat tomes didn't matter because of the stat cap. It was easy to cap out on a few primary and secondary stats, and stat tomes had no further effects because you couldn't go above the cap anyway.

Since ROI, stat tomes matter a lot more. They are especially significant for secondary stats (which you most likely won't have above 400~500 with the way new gears are designed, so +70 constitute a ~20% boost). They compensate for the removal of trained passives (base BPE, crit chance, and hit chance have all been reduced) and enhance multiple other aspects of the character.

Individually, the effects of stat tomes may appear trivial, but it all adds up alongside other store perks like damage boost/reduction, finesse, morale/power pots, status pots, etc, and it all adds up over time. It's the same reason you would spend all the time and effort to work on an LI for a few percent increase to damage of just a few skills, or spend that few hours grinding mobs just to squeeze a few more points of morale out of another rank of Zeal.

Do a hard raid where nobody uses any of these, and then do a hard raid with everyone fully stocked up on all of these, the difference is there. Yes the raid can be done with or without, but I'm not so sure if that's an advantage or a convenience, or maybe they are the one and same.

Originally Posted by Vellem

Look, I'm not trying to be rude here but wow, are you for real? I don't get your argument at all. You don't have time to raid but you want to buy and dress up in raid gear. Why? If you aren't raiding you don't really need it to do anything else in the game. Is it just so you can dress up? There are cosmetics for that. Your socializing argument doesn't make sense. Why do you need bought raid gear to do that? Is it to try and look impressive? How impressed do you think people will be when they found out all your fancy raid gear was bought in a store?

You seemed to not read my posts. I stated explicitly I would like to raid with my friends. And I am not here to impress people. So what do I care if people are impressed or not? This is a game for fun. Funny to you it is one to impress people. Well, that is to be expected. It is your play style. So play with your friends, who will be impressed by you.

Whether you like it or not, part of this game, and most mmos in general, is about character progression. It's about the journey. Starting off meek and meager and becoming mighty.

See my post above. I like slow progression and journey. Whether you like it or not, the gaming industry is changing. It is starting to cater to casual play style.

If you just buy that it kind of defeats the purpose of playing in the first place. If you want to chat and socialize there are plenty of social type free to play mmos that I think are better suited to what you are talking about.

It's not about gear. It's about experiencing challenges and defeat in a raid instanced. Many casual players may prefer to do it without mega grind. In fact, this can open up a big revenue for Turbine in selling gear adequate enough for people for a casual guild to defeat a lower tier raid, then instead of everyone grinding for gear, the whole kinship can buy tier 1 raid gear and move on to tier 2 raid for fun.

And I have to ask... Since you seem to spend an awfully large amount of cash in the store and admit that you would have no problems buying raid gear, what about gold? Have you/Do you buy gold? In this game or any other mmo? If you don't then explain to me why it's ok to buy raid gear but not gold. I'd like to hear the difference.

I spend not nearly as much as you think. Reading this forum there were people who cited much larger figures. Been thinking to myself this is why Turbine did so great in 2011. If they were to base their revenue on me haha, fail. I do not support farmers. In fact, having been used by some farmers who pretended they were friends and fooled me into a nightly group with them in EQ to farm was why I support a store. I want to knock farmers out of games. It is way better to support a store funding the gaming company than farmers.

A little off topic, but what about single player games? Do you just put in a cheat code and god mode your way through cause it's more fun than to boringly grind your way through the game? Just trying to get an idea of your character is all. Again, not trying to be rude but I just don't get it.

No way Jose. Now see how insulting it is for you to jump to all these questions? It shows you have no idea on what is really happening. But it's ok, at least you are honest and friendly sounding.

Originally Posted by mjk47

I think I detect a fallacy in your agrgument here. If you and I are going from place A to place B, and you choose to walk while I take the bus, is this an issue? I would assert that in the normal scheme of things it is not. However, if places A and B are the start and finish lines of a marathon in which we are both entrants, then clearly it is.

The big question here is whether of not LotRO is the equivalent of a "marathon". I do not see it as such, while I suspect that you would disagree. However, even if it we were to agree that it is, then there is still another case. What if you are a competitor but I am a mere spectator? In that case, you are competing against the other entrants, but I am free to make my way to the finish line by whatever means I choose, perhaps so that having observed your start I can cheer your trimphant arrival.

Hurin is capable of answering for himself, of course, but I suspect that he would say that it's perfectly fine that you choose to take a bus instead of run, as long as a route for runners actually exists. In the case of virtues or scrolls of empowerment, both the runners and the bus riders have clear and reasonable ways to get there. In the case of stat tomes, which this particular thread is about, the runners may never reach the finish line, no matter how long or how far they run.

Originally Posted by Perenth

Nice of you to start using these adjectives such as "contortions" to slime my reasoning. You had begun with "bizarre" a few posts back, and I had actually borrowed your slime to sling back at ya. Now allow me to do the same thing again. You pulled out your credit card to sign up for $15 a month, then proceed to demand access to what you feel you are entitled to in game. You pulled out a credit card to pay a monthly fee, because you can afford to occupy the game with hours of your time. So that even as you enjoy more content in the game, other people may not skip any grind.

But you, sir, will want to color my pulling out a credit card to skip the grind as somewhat unworthy, ah. contortions and analogies fly off the rails. Yes sir.

The issue isn't about using the Store in general, or using the Store to avoid grind. This isn't concern about people spending cash to get +1 Valour or a Scroll of Empowerment, both of which are things that require a certain, quantifiable, amount of in-game grind. The Store's alleged purpose is perfect for things like this: "What's worth more to me: the time it'd cost me to kill X number of Worms or run Y number of skirmishes to get what I want, or the time or money cost of the TPs it'll take to do the same."

It's about particular items in the Store that are used to advance one's character that, for all intents and purposes, aren't available in the game. This particular thread is about stat tomes, but it could also include the store-only relics and the store-only morale and power pots. That's all this is about - how much character advancement are we willing to accept being available only in the Store as opposed to just in the game, or at least reasonably available in the game as well as in the Store?

Clearly you're willing to accept stat tomes as basically being store-only, because you see them as a way to make up the difference between your character and the characters of those people with more time to play the game. It's not a position I happen to agree with, but okay - I'll accept it as your position. Which is why I'll ask you again - what are the people to do who also have limited time constraints like you but lack the will or the means to utilize the Store to make up the gap between you and them? (For what it's worth, although it'd probably cause me to stop playing LOTRO, I could see an intellectually honest defense for raid gear in the Store, because at least raid gear has a clear and reasonable in-game path to acquisition; stat tomes don't.)

Originally Posted by Amphoras

You can join raids just fine with crafted gear, they don't require raid gear. How else would people get raid gear if raids needed you to have it first?

Aren't there various tiers of raid zones? What about a kinship that prefers to experience raid tiers casually without grinding to equip everyone?

Originally Posted by Tamiya

Before ROI, stat tomes didn't matter because of the stat cap. It was easy to cap out on a few primary and secondary stats, and stat tomes had no further effects because you couldn't go above the cap anyway.

Since ROI, stat tomes matter a lot more. They are especially significant for secondary stats (which you most likely won't have above 400~500 with the way new gears are designed, so +70 constitute a ~20% boost). They compensate for the removal of trained passives (base BPE, crit chance, and hit chance have all been reduced) and enhance multiple other aspects of the character.

Individually, the effects of stat tomes may appear trivial, but it all adds up alongside other store perks like damage boost/reduction, finesse, morale/power pots, status pots, etc, and it all adds up over time. It's the same reason you would spend all the time and effort to work on an LI for a few percent increase to damage of just a few skills, or spend that few hours grinding mobs just to squeeze a few more points of morale out of another rank of Zeal.

Do a hard raid where nobody uses any of these, and then do a hard raid with everyone fully stocked up on all of these, the difference is there. Yes the raid can be done with or without, but I'm not so sure if that's an advantage or a convenience, or maybe they are the one and same.

Your secondary stats point is a good one.

For those folks who like to focus on the stats to which +70 may only be a 3-4% increase, at what % increase is your personal threshold for "too much"? My level 75 T2 raid-geared, First Age-wielding, top-end jewelry-wearing Champ has 58 Will. +70 Will would be a 120% increase to that stat - is 120% still inconsequential, or is that finally too much?

Originally Posted by Perenth

Aren't there various tiers of raid zones? What about a kinship that prefers to experience raid tiers casually without grinding to equip everyone?

Yes, there are, at least for the last three raids released (Ost Dunhoth, Draigoch, and Tower of Orthanc). You can try them all at Tier 1, Tier 2, or attempt to fulfill Challenge Mode conditions while doing T2.

For the most recent raid, Tower of Orthanc, pugs have been clearing it on T1 since the first week it came out. I was able to heal T1 on my RK alt who was wearing yellow landscape drops and quest rewards in some slots and was using a third age healing bag with only one legacy maxed out and most others at very low tiers. Sure, that was with kin, but even when I healed for a pug that (no offense to those involved) had very little idea of what it was doing and had much worse gear than my kinmates, the pug was able to down one of the T1 bosses on its very first try.

T1 is perfect for the kinship that prefers to experience the raid without grinding to equip everyone.

T2, however, is definitely a considerable step up. Experienced raiding kins are repeatedly wiping on trash pulls in there after nearly a month of trying. T2 will require some effort to gear up first. (But guess what? Clearing the raid on T1 actually gives you access to all of the best armor the raid has to offer, so the effort will be rather minimal.)

In short, the sort of raid you seem to be looking for already exists.

However, I'm not sure how we got on this topic in the first place - we seem to have strayed from the issue of stat tomes. Ah yes - stat tomes. You definitely don't need them to beat the current end-game raid on T1. There we go. Back on topic (sort of).

Originally Posted by Perenth

Aren't there various tiers of raid zones? What about a kinship that prefers to experience raid tiers casually without grinding to equip everyone?

Yes, there are tiers. The higher tiers will need better gear, but you can still try them. If a kin wants to do them casually they can, why would they not be able to?

Originally Posted by Lestache

It's about particular items in the Store that are used to advance one's character that, for all intents and purposes, aren't available in the game.

Thank you for a non-insulting post.

Earlier in this thread I had already stated the stat tomb for me is to help casual players who do not have time to work on gear. If the current top end raid requires these stat tombs, my guess is Turbine feels the players who subscribe can use monthly TP allowance to help toward these. These would be players who play month after month hardcore. Someone who plays a lot may also feel it is worth their expense to pay $30 per month for their 8 hours a day of gaming. That will give them $15 a month to spend in the store. (oops and 500 tp with their sub, on top.)

Heh I have been spending about $15 on TP per month on my main, and yet I can afford to get all the tombs, all the milestones, etc. over the last 19 months. It's a fun journey. Bit by bit.

Hope this also answers your question below.

what are the people to do who also have limited time constraints like you but lack the will or the means to utilize the Store to make up the gap between you and them?

Originally Posted by Perenth

Nice of you to start using these adjectives such as "contortions" to slime my reasoning.

It appears to me that you're becoming exquisitely sensitive (despite your own rather harsh initial post in this thread) as your arguments come undone and your position becomes more and more untenable.

It is quite simply a bizarre contortion to point to people achieving things by playing the game and then damn them as somehow gaining some advantage over you. . . and then asserting that your inability to play as much as they do entitles you to be able to purchase outright whatever they earn through playing.

I find that a bizarre contortion. It is not "sliming" you. . . it's merely an accurate description of how I see that line of reasoning.

You pulled out your credit card to sign up for $15 a month, then proceed to demand access to what you feel you are entitled to in game.

I don't think my $15 entitles me to stat tomes. I think stat tomes being stat tomes makes all players entitled to earn them through playing the game. If you don't see the distinction, then there's no hope of communicating productively with you.

You pulled out a credit card to pay a monthly fee, because you can afford to occupy the game with hours of your time. So that even as you enjoy more content in the game, other people may not skip any grind.

Can't make heads or tails out of what that means. Where did I say that people can't skip a grind? As I've said time and time again, I don't have a problem with the vast majority of what the store sells. I haven't even taken issue with bypassing Virtue grinds, or even purchasing Virtues outright. But I think it is telling, however, that you now need to draw a (silly) false equivalence between my position that character stats/level/advancement should be earned through gameplay and me somehow demanding that nobody ever be able to "skip a grind." When someone runs out of ways to win an argument on the merits, they start arguing against what they wish someone was saying.

But you, sir, will want to color my pulling out a credit card to skip the grind as somewhat unworthy, ah. contortions and analogies fly off the rails. Yes sir.

I think you're intentionally being vague here and just sort of railing in general now. . . because I can't figure out what "grind" you're now talking about. Any grind? If this is in keeping with your contention that everything should be sold in the store. . . then yes, I think it is "unworthy" of a game (not anyone in particular) to sell certain things.

You really expect everyone to "play" according to your standard.

If by "playing according to my standard" you mean actually playing to advance their character? Well, then, yes. I guess so. And you've failed to demonstrate why you're entitled to buy any and all advancement of your character rather than just earning it like everyone else (through playing the game).

But, that's not "my standard". . . it's just sorta common sense that you go to great pains to obfuscate and twist around until those who are playing the game as designed are "occupying it" and deriving "advantage" over those who would like to play it less but buy the rewards usually accrued by playing it more.

Two negatives in your sentences. "No amount of money entitles" blah blah. Then you claim you're not "denying". Which point do you have?

Those sentences were fine and make perfect sense. Here they are again: "No amount of money would entitle me to demand such things. Nor am I "denying" anyone anything whatsoever." They were in response to your assertion that someone like me must think that my $15 gives me the right to dictate the game's design and/or deny others "social fun" via raid content. They addressed both and in perfectly acceptable english. Your need to assert otherwise in such a petty way speaks volumes of where you're now left in your argument(s).

Ah, back to "bizarre state of mind". I'm trying not to borrow your word this time. It's your view. But...

What makes you think people never do a thing within the game? Lol. Why are we paying to play? Do you think I just paid to own some a few pixels? That would be pretty stupid. We are all playing this game.

You are willfully missing the point here. As I said, if you had your way, people could buy everything in the game regardless of what they actually do in the game. Now, obviously, you have no problem with that for your own reasons. But you seem awfully unwilling to consider the other effects such a model would have despite great pains taken to point them out to you.

Beautifully written, yet I am sorry you just don't get it.

When we get to a raid level, we have been through a lot of winding maze. We have leveled and built up our character. The reason it's taking me so long to level up is I'm doing every quest I can. I have seen the valleys in slow progression. In fact, I got 2 characters to kindred with Mathon rep items that my main picked up. I have enjoyed going slowly, and taking my time in seeing every corner of the world here in Lotro that I care to see. I have helped lower level people do group quest to the point I die and lose 200 silver on repair when I only had 45 minutes to play. How do you deem what other people do? Why do you only see your own "worthiness"?

Why must you insist on making this about "worthiness" and other such loaded words designed to make this a hyperbolic, moralistic shouting match rather than letting your arguments stand on their own merits? You're just as "worthy" of playing the game and reaping the rewards of what you do within the game as anyone else. Where things fall apart is where you then leap to saying: "I played the game a certain way which puts certain things out of my reach. So I am entitled to buy them because I want them. But I don't want to earn them in the game. Gimme."

Were I to borrow your arguing style, I could just as easily say that you want the entire business model and the game itself redesigned to fit your idiosyncratic playstyle so that you can still explore "every valley" and give selflessly of yourself 200s at a time to your lower-level brethern and still never see any repurcussions from your playstyle choices. To sum up your argument: "Why can't I have all the rewards I want without even earning them? Just let me buy them! Here's my money!"

When I do join a raid, what makes you think I will not see defeat?

Wow. . . not even sure why you ask this here in the midst of the analogy. Again, bizarre.

Oh really? Last I heard people paid a lot more than $10 more to stay at penthouses.

Umm, you began the analogy with a hotel where people paid $15 to stay a month! And now you're bizarrely going all literal here? This and the other quote immediately above shows that you're just pedantically flailing about here and have lost any semblance of a cogent position or point.

You are saying the only way to get to a penthouse is via sitting for 100 hours. I hope you run that hotel.

See above. It's like you've just given up now and are just trying to be willfully obtuse in order to aggravate. Your original analogy had people just sitting there. My follow-up analogy directly contradicted that contention. But hey, don't let that stop you from just ignoring it and stating your original, addressed point.

Once again, you refuse the right for other players to customize their game play.

Once again, you use loaded language like "rights". . . now you've invented some "right" to purchase all things in this game? And I am now refusing it to you?

You various slanderous adjectives used against my view are intentionally cheapening my journey in this game with your slander. To insist on your "point of view".

I have read that four times. I still don't know how to respond to it. Except to say that when someone uses questionable logic, asserts false equivalencies, and engages in all sorts of other rhetorical contortions, I do not see it as "slanderous" to point such behavior out.

You forget I'd like to experience raid instanced with my friends.

No, I did not forget that. But what you "like" is not the same thing as what you are entitled to have regardless of how you play the game. Your playstyle choices do (and should) have consequences. Otherwise, what's the point? And so help me, if you say that the point is to hang around with your buddies. . . you can do that outside of the content that you are allegedly withholding from yourself.

And you would rather call me lots of other names. :P No wonder I don't bother posting on forums. Have a nice day.

Not once have I "called you a name." I have characterized and scrutinized your arguments and some behavior. And where I wondered aloud if perhaps you were setting yourself up for some altruistic/bombastic/moralistic preening and bomb-throwing in lieu of continuing an argument that was not going well for you. . . well, I think this last post of yours vindicates my doing so.

You have a nice day too!

--H

Originally Posted by Hurin

So, the "spectators" of the marathon in your analogy are just folks who aren't taking part in a "race" but are free to make their way to the "finish line" however they wish. So, just to be clear, those who feel that character advancement shouldn't be sold in the store (or, at last, not exclusively) are those running the marathon. And the spectators are those who want to purchase such things in the store, correct?

Well, the first issue with your analogy is that it's not just about a destination (the finish line) but all the rewards the runners receive (even beyond the winner who gets the gold medal and the media adoration, etc.). It leaves out that many of those spectators see what the runners have earned and say: "I want that. But I don't want to have to actually endure the marathon." And, to expand your analogy further, those actually running the marathon train for the marathon, they get faster, they increase their endurance, they get leaner and stronger. . . so to continue with your analogy, those spectators at the finish line are also saying: "Hey, I want all the benefits that the runners accrue to themselves through their actions, but I don't want to actually be bothered to train or run the marathon itself."

To be honest though, there are so many places where the analogy is inapt that I can't work my way forward with it from there. It's such a specific analogy that it's impossible to work in the concepts of achievement within a game being something that should be earned through playing. And since those are lacking, and it's beyond me to squeeze them into it, I guess I just have to leave it there.

I said the analogy was undoubtedly flawed.

The problem is that they shouldn't be taken literally, but rather need to be read in the same mind-set as the writer, which is, by its very nature, pretty much impossible to convey.

Originally Posted by Hurin

I would take issue, once again, however with this contention that competition (a "race" or "marathon") need be present at all for the "first principle" to apply. Whether we're in competition with each other or not (direct or otherwise), a game as a game needs to maintain a certain amount of integrity and be consistent in that achievement in the game not be tainted by factors outside the game. You yourself expressed a preference for the game prior, when only what one did within the game mattered.

That wasn't quite point I was intending to make, but never mind.

The problem is, as far as I can see, that not everyone views the game in the same way, and is not here for the same reasons. Something like LotRO is not like an ordinary game where there are winners and losers, and there are definite criteria for winning. It isn't like football, or cricket, or even patience. I think I see it as being more like an environment in which one is free to pursue a life-style. In that sense it is rather like (and may the gods forgive me for this observation) Second Life. There are elements of the game that provide purpose, what you would call achievement, but those vary for different individuals.

I have heard tell of players who have been here for years but have never left The Shire, remaining happy to just commune with their inner, bucolic, hobbit. At the other end of the spectrum are those whose goal is to rush through to the level cap as fast as is elvenly possible, beat the latest and greatest challenge, and then depart for pastures, and MMOs, new. Neither one of those extremes are typical of the mythical "average player". The bell curve applies here as in pretty much every human endeavour. For me it is one of the joys of the game that it can cater for that wide spectrum of players. They don't interfere with each other unless they choose to somehow take notice, and then umbrage, at the antics of the other.

A couple of nights ago I was feeling particularly insomniac, and I happened to spend a while watching a live video stream of the T1 Orthanc instance. Some would say "Gosh, that looks cool, I want to that". My reaction was that it looked mind-numbingly boring, and wild horses wouldn't persuade me to waste several hours on such a meaningless activity. I don't begrudge those who wish to spend their time on what seemed to me like uttter tedium from obtaining their rewards. I hope they enjoy them before they become obsolete and they have to start all over again. Would I like a way to obtain thse rewards for my character? Probably. Personally, I wouldn't want to buy them in the store, but I would like a way of obtaining them by some in-game endeavour which suited my play-style. I would be happy to be able to obtain them one cycle behind, when the min-maxers have moved on to the new objects of desire.

Does my obtaining them by some other in-game method (or even from the store) detract in any way from the achievement of those who obtained them "the hard way"? My answer would be a resounding "No". That achievement is something internal to the individual. It meets their need to feel that they have done something significant. To feel undermined by someone gaining the same visible reward by another means seems to me to betray a degree of insecurity, as if external validation is needed in addition to the internal knowledge. I feel that the true reward lies in the obtaining of a title that truly indicates that you have beaten Saruman, or Draigoch, or whoever. That will never be made obsolete, and is the true source of pride that can never be taken away or indeed gained by anyone who has not done the same great deeds. (Now if they started selling titles in the store, I would find that offensive).

Originally Posted by Hurin

Sorry if that wasn't all that cogent. I'm running out of steam here. You can only keep up these sorts of endeavors for so long before exhaustion sets in.

--H

Hardly surprising. This has been a debate of high quality, and maintaining it is not easy, especially as it doesn't really provide the luxury of a long period ofcontemplation before forumlating a response.