Thread: Wardens are useless

Once such a great class, which took skill and time to use, and have so much fun with, have been broken.
I have invested so much time and effort into my warden and after ROI I must admit I am so dissapointed with it.
I don't know what Turbine did, and to be honest I dont care. I like to enjoy my class and with warden I like to tank, which should be ( last I checked) primary role.
We take damage, and we take a lot of damage with all buffs up. Fangorn first boss (T2) devestated me for 8500 damage, taking around 80% of my morale in one hit. Shield tactic, which should apply immunity to stun is broken.
So honestly I will say that this is the worst piece of business Turbine. How this passed beyond Beta, and forth, and still this class is broken even after update 5, is a mystery to me.
What is not a mystery, but a personal opinion, is that I will go play another game.
Probably they will use my efforts and money better and get their classes balanced hoping that they are more professional.
Send me a mail when you find a way to fix yours if you ever do.
"Wardens are balanced as they are" (pre ROI quote by Orion)
Sure they are.

They're still probably the best solo class in the game...

I wouldnt go so far as to call them "useless", maybe just "less useful now for certain playstyles"

Well, if you can't use them in end game content, that's a pretty big area of the game to throw into "certain playstyles".

i cannot call wardens totally useless. They are capable in end game content on t1. If geared to the teeth with the proper build they can manage t2 content as well. My warden can complete some t2 content. The pits t2 i couldnt get past. maybe due to group build. 1warden 1cappy 1 hunter. The first boss just overwhelmed me with adds and the cappy couldnt heal fast enough and the hunter couldnt take down multiple adds fast enough. I can make it in fangorn t2 with the same group. i havent tried ugly troll yet on t2.. i prolly wont since i dont have a LM in the kin on regularly enough to run it w. I dont like pugging cause i dont want to further the idea of wardens being inferior. (not that it isnt well known at this point) My kin respects me as a warden and a tank. I catch alot of joking from them about my mitigation (in 3 mans our usual setup is a cappy a champ and me tanking. i catch hell for being the tank and having lower mitigation than the healer and the dps) but we get through it. At the end of the day my kin still asks me to tank the t1 3 man content even when some of the guards are on. maybe they just like the irony of the tank having the least survivability of the group. The point is, we can get it done with no deaths. The point has been made that guards are better in every situation. That point has been made 9 trillion times since last week. I respect anyone's decision to leave lotro for what they did here. Im sticking it out till update 6. If at that point we are not on par i will not be continuing with an alt. I will not continue with my warden. that will be the end. The dev has said hes working on it. The only thing to ask for is a quicker fix, but if that happens the fix may not be a fix. Hasty changes = chaos and overlooked things that leave us dead. Guards to it better but in ***most*** content we are not useless.

Hi totally disagree. Wardens are doing fine after the latest update. I am having a blast running and main tanking all new 3-mans T2 CM, the 6-man T2 CM, and I main tank Tower of Orthanc T1 with my kin twice a week without any issues so far. I am sure Tower of Orthanc T2 will be tough on me but so far T1 has been fine.

Two of weeks ago, I successfully beat "The Pits T2 CM" with a hunter and an LM (no healer)!

At this point I sit comfortably at 48% tactical Mit, 50% common Mit, 18% inc heal, 1720 VIt and 800 Mit, 20%B 15%P, 11%E and 14k Morale.

We take more "common damage" than guards, well 20% more, but that's to be expected. We do very well when it comes to tactical damage and our HoTs really make a difference now.

Originally Posted by Dradous

We take more "common damage" than guards, well 20% more, but that's to be expected. We do very well when it comes to tactical damage and our HoTs really make a difference now.

You're going to catch heck for this from a lot of people around here, because it's not 20% more it's 66% more (If they take 300 we take 500). Doesn't change your point, as you're spot on IMO.

I do agree with everything you're saying regardless of the damage difference. My stats are very similar to yours (more Might for heals at the cost of tact mit) and I also do everything 3/6 man T2 CM (I even prefer a Captain for the 3 mans as it speeds things up a bit). I have done a bit of the raid T2 as well and while difficult I haven't been holding back my raid in the least. I can even swap to DPS if others want to tank and do well over 1k DPS. In fact without a Warden I don't think we would have beaten Fire & Ice T2 yet!

Do you really wanna know what's really useless? Another thread of the same old e-Drama. Wardens are still viable in several stuff out there. Ppl should stop raging in the forums... seriusly

Originally Posted by droid

They're still probably the best solo class in the game...

Besides the point that "soloing" hardly is a class role; I think minstrels, burglars, LMs and champs all make claim to that title.

Originally Posted by -Aelg-

Besides the point that "soloing" hardly is a class role; I think minstrels, burglars, LMs and champs all make claim to that title.

Lets see any other pretenders to the throne solo tier 1 pit first boss (Fun test on how good you are, but you need to invite someone after to enter one of the wings and they rarly want to leave after so I havent gotten to solo the rest).

Originally Posted by khaipur

Lets see any other pretenders to the throne solo tier 1 pit first boss (Fun test on how good you are, but you need to invite someone after to enter one of the wings and they rarly want to leave after so I havent gotten to solo the rest).

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...olo-List/page4
http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...lo-List/page44

Scroll to the bottom of both threads. The Pits are old news :P.

There is no single guard in my kin, I'm the only main warden, and all other tank alts are wardens. We've been doing fine in raiding too.

Then I better tell my friends in SWTOR that we misunderstanded the class.
We don't take more damage, and wardens are great tanks, almost on pair with guardians.
People can do end game content without a problem on wardens.

Get real.

People prefer Guardians and I understand them.
I even had an Lff looking for a tank telling me that he was looking for a tank not for a warden. We take too much damage.
Our mitigation are a disaster.

There are people with great kins on very populated servers who have played for years and have the time to dwell deep into the game and get great gear. You can defend this class and I am sure you have it much easear tanking on warden.
But there are also people on servers not so populated, with kins that ls in ruin after ROI. People with family and jobs.
For us tanking and loosing 80% of morale on 1 hit is just not fun and really not viewed as effective tanking.
We move to another game, for playing on a class that isn't fun just destroys the confidence in this game, taking the fun out of it. It is frustrating and noone will pay for that.

And really if you think I am trolling then take a look how many posts I made, think this is my 5th.
I dont have time writing on forums, arguing or trolling. I am casual, like majority of ppl in the game.
I am only writing my concern and I see I offend people.
English isn't my native and since this post is useless then Moderator should lock it and delete it.
There is no problem with Wardens.
I am going back to SWTOR
Have fun guys

Originally Posted by Mirkyl

"Wardens are balanced as they are" (pre ROI quote by Orion)
Sure they are.

And orion was right, pre-roi they were balanced, if you couldn't tank pre-roi then it depended on the lack of skill of a warden, even tough i agree wardens are broken, they aren't useless, foundry T2 is a place where a warden is actually wanted/required.
But besides that wardens are nothing to what they ussed to be.
Since what iv'e seen posible i'm trying to get my gear up, and i do believe when i get my full saruman raid gear i will be up for much more then i ussed to be.

Originally Posted by Dradous

Hi totally disagree. Wardens are doing fine after the latest update.

I disagree, wardens are doing "a little" better, their nothing near to "fine"

MT

Originally Posted by Mirkyl

Once such a great class, which took skill and time to use, and have so much fun with, have been broken.
I have invested so much time and effort into my warden and after ROI I must admit I am so dissapointed with it.
I don't know what Turbine did, and to be honest I dont care. I like to enjoy my class and with warden I like to tank, which should be ( last I checked) primary role.
We take damage, and we take a lot of damage with all buffs up. Fangorn first boss (T2) devestated me for 8500 damage, taking around 80% of my morale in one hit. Shield tactic, which should apply immunity to stun is broken.
So honestly I will say that this is the worst piece of business Turbine. How this passed beyond Beta, and forth, and still this class is broken even after update 5, is a mystery to me.
What is not a mystery, but a personal opinion, is that I will go play another game.
Probably they will use my efforts and money better and get their classes balanced hoping that they are more professional.
Send me a mail when you find a way to fix yours if you ever do.
"Wardens are balanced as they are" (pre ROI quote by Orion)
Sure they are.

Wardens are useless in T2 Orthanc. Thats it.

Everything else is completely doable as a main tank.

Originally Posted by Untg99

Wardens are useless in T2 Orthanc. Thats it.

Everything else is completely doable as a main tank.

T2 Orthanc is the measure, eat it.

Everything else is doable for a warden with good or even exceptional gear and an alert healer, while a mediocre and even undergeared guardian or a mediocre geared blue traited champion or a mediocre geared yellow traited Captain just stands there and lets the healer yawn and watching TV besides.

Threat generation is exquisit, mitigation is FUBAR.

Conclusion: Improve the scaling for medium armor only for warden tanks (you are able to do that for guardians and heavy armor, so it shouldn't be such a problem to implement).

I can only give my own experiences here, but with my Warden kinnie and a Minstrel(I was an LM) we have beaten the following:

Fangorn's Edge T1
Pits T1
Dargnakh Unleashed T1
Dargnakh Unleashed T2
Foundry T1
Foundry T2

As well as a plethora of skirmish raids, almost all of which were tanked by Wardens oddly enough.

So as far as being useless goes, I don't think so.

Originally Posted by Nyrion

I can only give my own experiences here, but with my Warden kinnie and a Minstrel(I was an LM) we have beaten the following:

Fangorn's Edge T1
Pits T1
Dargnakh Unleashed T1
Dargnakh Unleashed T2
Foundry T1
Foundry T2

As well as a plethora of skirmish raids, almost all of which were tanked by Wardens oddly enough.

So as far as being useless goes, I don't think so.

You dont need a tank for any of those instances, just a decent group. A burg/captain/champ even htr in your place would do fine, and probably finish all of those instances without problems.

From my experience we arnt completely broken, but rather under-powered compared to the alternatives. Gotta say tho, bosses with tactical damage which doesnt need to much swaping of aggro, we arent doing too bad. Did T2CM lightning wing yesterday and main-tanked it fine along with a guardian. Now, my raid group is a bunch of very dedicated players, but still it wasnt too bad (max hit was 8,5k). Shame I forgot to record it^^

From my experience wardens are a Joke of the year at the moment.
devestating hits taking 80-90% of your morale in 1 hit?
Good luck healers and well done Turbine.

Originally Posted by Silmahad

Conclusion: Improve the scaling for medium armor only for warden tanks (you are able to do that for guardians and heavy armor, so it shouldn't be such a problem to implement).

Your logic is flawed. They didn't improve mitigations just for guards, its for all heavy armour wearing classes. So doing the same for just wardens, while ignoring hunters and burgs, may be more problematic.

Originally Posted by Mirkyl

From my experience wardens are a Joke of the year at the moment.

As has been previously noted, once properly geared, many wardens are finding that they can do quite well in most situations. I'm not going to debate whether or not that should be a requirement to fulfill our main role, but since you said yourself that you are a casual player, I suspect you're not geared out yet and that is why you find yourself having a difficult time.

There have been several on this forum that started out in full doom and gloom mode and slowly switched over to the we're alright if geared mode. I suspect their attitude changed due to the difference they saw in playability as they geared up.

So, there is some hope that we're not truly a joke class yet.

Originally Posted by Feraxks

Your logic is flawed. They didn't improve mitigations just for guards, its for all heavy armour wearing classes. So doing the same for just wardens, while ignoring hunters and burgs, may be more problematic.

As I remember only guardians have a "special" scaling in mitigation for their heavy armor.

Nevertheless Champions and Captains have tanklines, but the special "scaling" should happen only while traited for tanking, yes.

So an increase of medium armor mitigation by a "special scaling" should occur only to a Warden tank traited of course.

The argument "this is too difficult to implement" does not bother me at all.

I understand you Feraxks and you are right. If you get epic (end game) gear you can probably be as good as a medio Guardian.
I am on non-populated server. At the moment I don't see many wardens do to the fact that they are ineffective. You dont have many "high-end" wardens, at least I havent seen one. Even in etten I am only one standard for months.
You see the frustration, even for Fangor T1 people don't want to take wardens as a tank. I have been dismissed twice at the begining for they were looking for a tank, a guardian or a champ.
For T2 I get a reply that a warden simply takes too much damage and they can't use him.
I can tank solo skirmishes or do Library T1.
But really if we can't tank and people are avoiding us then what is our role?
As a tanks in T2 we are useless, we take too much damage and grps prefer heavy armored.
Even a champ is preffered more than a warden.
I am not up to offend people here, but that is my experience.

I have used months on my warden, used over 200g to get the symbols to make 2 LI 75s spear and Jav.
Tanking T2 and wipe constantly because of failed class is just not an exuse.
That reputation is about to catch up with us.

If 8-9k is 80% of your morale then you don't have enough of it. It would be easier to advice u (if u even want it) if we knew what kind of build u have. U can't be serious about judging the class based on your casual playing and under geared character.

On my server wardens are taken on any PUG runs as tanks. That includes any t1 or t2 3 man or 6 man, and any raid. I haven't seen anyone PUG ToO t2 yet so can't really say anything about that, but whatever people are setting up, a warden can tank.

We had a laugh at lightning boss fight (t1) last night. We switched tanks 3 times during the fight, because it took a long time to get my debuff up to 7 or 8. It once zeroed from 5 because I BPE'd so much of the attacks.

So no, wardens are not useless from any perspective.

Originally Posted by Feraxks

As has been previously noted, once properly geared, many wardens are finding that they can do quite well in most situations. I'm not going to debate whether or not that should be a requirement to fulfill our main role, but since you said yourself that you are a casual player, I suspect you're not geared out yet and that is why you find yourself having a difficult time.

There have been several on this forum that started out in full doom and gloom mode and slowly switched over to the we're alright if geared mode. I suspect their attitude changed due to the difference they saw in playability as they geared up.

So, there is some hope that we're not truly a joke class yet.

In my experience most wardens have always been a joke, meaning there were enough teri-bad wardens out there that the good ones had to prove themselves. I was actually fine with that. I liked proving that wardens could be amazing to people that thought it was a garbage class. The current condition of the warden as a tanking class is pretty laughable to me.

Actually most of the D&G wardens started out pretty optimistic after RoI. It wasn't until we hit 75 and started getting smashed in situations that guards/champs could handle without much issue. Solyaris saw the mitigation issue much earlier than most, and was complaining about it in the beta forums (if I remember correctly). To which there was not any response with regards to our squishyness. I long for the days where everyone was amazed at our lack of power issues, sweet new DPS with the PA line and dominating landscape quests / mobs on there way to 75, basically the first week after RoI was released.

As for useless, I'd disagree. We're apparently OP in the moors, and in certain players hands almost unbeatable in 1v1s. Mine is a great jeweler and can farm ore like nobodies' business. It is perfectly capable for everything sub t2 ToO, IMO. Some are even proving that it can work with certain caveats in t2. But if you have two guards you'd probably be much better off, which is where the warden is a joke part comes in. The gap between the two classes is laughable. I'm tanking ToO again this weekend, I'm trying to convince them to let me bring my champ - at least for the trash. That says a lot if you knew how much I loved playing the class pre-RoI.

The real joke might be how long it has taken to get the problems fixed. Four months later and we don't really have a clear roadmap of where the class is going. Tough to be optimistic, at least for me.

Originally Posted by Silmahad

As I remember only guardians have a "special" scaling in mitigation for their heavy armor.

Nevertheless Champions and Captains have tanklines, but the special "scaling" should happen only while traited for tanking, yes.

So an increase of medium armor mitigation by a "special scaling" should occur only to a Warden tank traited of course.

The argument "this is too difficult to implement" does not bother me at all.

Champs have one trait that allows them to use a skill that adds to mitigations (Hedge). If not traited you cannot keep it running 100% of the time. It is basically there to replace the mitigations of a heavy shield, which they can no longer carry. The benefits of going further into the Martial (tanking) line make them sturdier, but the armor they are wearing does not do any special scaling, at least that I have seen. Champs do have a couple bubbles and a skill that reduces damage for a short period (adamant/invincible[traited]).

I believe guards can go over the cap with Guardian's Ward (skill) though. So it would seem that they could give wardens overcapping mitigations, but Orion has stated he doesn't want to do that because he'd have to take it away someday. He wants to do something in the spirit of the class apparently. We just have to deal with it until March (my current optimistic estimate on U6). So it seems to be less of a "too difficult to implement" issue and more of a Orion doesn't want the class to go in that direction issue and probably considers slapping on mitigations as a crutch. So we sit here and wait....




And wait some more....





............

Edit: Wait, just checked my email - t7 stat tomes. That will probably help us a little bit. And if you buy the +mitigations scroll from the store you'll be more capable too, what is it 5% reduction to all incoming damage?

Most of the wardens here that say we are fine are those in a kin that supports them, tolerated wipes until they get the gear going, helped them gear up, thus they were never in a position that they got rejected just for being a warden. Wardens without kin support cannot even prove themselves as they get rejected right on the bat. Turbine should add in the Warden description "great kin and great gears required at end games". The complexity of playing this class should have a reward. A greatly geared and played warden should always be better than a greatly geared and played Guardian, but as it turned out, a greatly played and geared Warden is barely equal to a good geared and played Guard, so where is the reward playing this class?

Originally Posted by Mysterion

Edit: Wait, just checked my email - t7 stat tomes. That will probably help us a little bit. And if you buy the +mitigations scroll from the store you'll be more capable too, what is it 5% reduction to all incoming damage?

I saw their ads about t7 stat tomes. Last night, I was on my LM and checked the store. Couldnt find them. It is probably a Warden specific items? Their fix to our mitigation issues? You see, they have a way to fix it , except its in the form of TP. So why cant we have a free quick fix?

Took my warden to the moors and got the quest from tr to kill stuff at lugz. I went there and started into the keep...kept going...killed the taskmasters and chieftains...

...but I couldn't solo the tyrant! So I must conclude: my warden is broken. Fix it please.



If you think I sound stupid saying that, go back and read your own crybaby posts again.

Wardens are fine for now, and we can trust Orion to finish balancing us into our role. Thanks again to the constructive wardens who helped me get my warden functional. Stay optimistic.

I am sorry piirow. I forgot to write.

Kids under 10 are not permitted to post in this topic.
That includes you.

Originally Posted by Mirkyl

I am sorry piirow. I forgot to write.

Kids under 10 are not permitted to post in this topic.
Guess thats including you lol.

haha my mistake. I'll be off now.

C'mon Piirow. I do not "moan". Noone is expecting a class to solo a game, guess you didn't catch the meaning of my post.
I am complaining that we cannot tank, not as close as a guardian.
Us I mean casual Wardens without great kins and epic gear.
We were a great class before ROI, now we are butter.
You turn my post like I expect to beat a tyrant or to solo a 12 mans instance, I never wrote that.
But as a tank I don't expect to get devestated by a T2 boss for 9k damage.
Glad you are happy with your warden but there are people out here who are not.

Best way to do is leave the game and don't complain at all, like the majority I know did.
At least you wont get flamed.

Originally Posted by Dradous

We take more "common damage" than guards, well 20% more, but that's to be expected. We do very well when it comes to tactical damage and our HoTs really make a difference now.

Not sure how this statement can be supported, as Evendale showed his guardian capped 70% tact mitigation with 18K rating, so as our kin guard. My 14k buffed tact mit is 50%, same cap and same mitigation curve for both common and tact mit.

So the deal is same not matter common or tactical damage, guardian wins both.
Edit: since thunder is already corrected on 20%, as it should be 66%. Warden takes 66% more damage both common and tactical than guard.

Just as a point of interest - Guards can get over 70% common and can cap their 70% tactical too.

Second point of fact - wardens are being used in T2 runs (and some successful) right now. There are still ways to make them useful even if they are broken. I will say we are not quite as broke as before and have gone back to mine and am finding ways to make him an asset to the raid again.

Originally Posted by Morgrimlotus

Most of the wardens here that say we are fine are those in a kin that supports them, tolerated wipes until they get the gear going, helped them gear up, thus they were never in a position that they got rejected just for being a warden. Wardens without kin support cannot even prove themselves as they get rejected right on the bat.

Thank you, sir! Really thank you. I'm completely bored of that "optimistic guys" in themes about our broken class. As to me, I have a kin and I am not playing Lotro solo. But I always enter a competition with our very good (maybe even great) Guards. May be that smart "optimistic guys" give me some advises how I can win them for raiding? I don't care about T1. This is not why I'm still playing advanced class in old-old-game like Lotro is! You guys can do T1 well? Very, very good, but doesn't impress me much. I'm the only one pre-ROI "active" warden in my kin, I'm the only one girl in my kin, who plays MT warden for all pre-ROI raid content. I think I can take kind of mercy from my kin for my old merits but I could not accept that. Warden is completely broken, untested, messed, useless class for competitive team game now.
I must warn anybody who is thinking about buying warden in store - wait! Wait for U6 and make your decision after testing that. Do not listen Orion and "Co" and do believe only in facts not in promises. Turbine game designers could not even balance only TWO! TWO! tank classes in game! They did not test well the new content changes even being warned about some serious issues in it. They have no sense of our class giving us crutches like battle memory and panic button (LoL!!! panic button for first line-warrior) but avoiding the real class problem like battle preparation, obsolete LIs and trait lines.
Could we manage with T2 raid content? Yes, we could but this content requires an epic-geared warden with epic-skilled group. How you could get real epic gear? It's a big problem since we're playing not in single RPG.

I get it now. The worst whiners are the ones trying to play the current warden the same as they played the pre-ROI warden. I don't care what class you play. Anyone who doesn't adjust their play style to the changes is going to fail and complain.

I can't decided which of the following annoys me more: your whining or your grammar.

Originally Posted by Lelliana

Yes, we could but this content requires an epic-geared warden with epic-skilled group. How you could get real epic gear? It's a big problem since we're playing not in single RPG.

This is the key statement if you calm down and think about it.

Do u expect any casual player or casual kin/group will beat up T2 and walk away with worn symbol of elder king and the clips for upgrade necklace and cloak?

See if you agree with me, to beat up T2 raid, you need epic-geared/skilled players from every class, warden no exception. This doesn’t mean Warden has no issues, such as critical/dev defense and squishiness at beginning of the fight.

I've MTed Foundry, Fangorn, Darg, and Pits all tier 2 challenge easily. Even Off tanked a couple t1 wings of orthanc. In PvP I have yet to lose a 1v1 since U5, and I win most my 1v2s as well. So we are not useless. I'm not saying we aren't broken, and in Orthanc tier 2 we're nearly useless, but I am saying that we have uses, and in most situations, are perfectly capable tanks, even if we aren't the ideal choice

Still looking forward to U6, I hope we'll be able to MT anything as well as guards then, but for now, I'm just sticking my warden as a PvP class, and leveling up a hunter to raid with. When U6 pops around, if we're fixed, i'll raid again on my Warden

~Rae

Originally Posted by Me_the_Third

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...olo-List/page4
http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...lo-List/page44

Scroll to the bottom of both threads. The Pits are old news :P.

Boo that shows the quality of the people I've been grouping with, those that didnt think I was lying were very impressed. I was going to ask how a champ did it but I had forgotten the bubbles.

And I've main tanked tier 1& 2 isen 3 mans, and tier 1 lightning and acid, the thing is for the tier 2 raids we are still useful for kiting mobs and for DPS and for stepping in as tank when the guard goes down.

Originally Posted by HunterByHeart

See if you agree with me, to beat up T2 raid, you need epic-geared/skilled players from every class, warden no exception.

I'm agree with you, without doubts. But... but... now I could not defend my position in raid. What I can bring to table? There are a lot of comparisons of epic-wardens vs mediocre guards! Why with mediocre guards? I'm in company of very good guards! It was very hard to compete with them pre-ROI but now it is just almost impossible. I could not guarantee a smooth, predictable tanking for my group NOW but they can. Not any group likes everyday challenges with warden. What exactly the reason why my group choose me as it was pre-ROI? If you cannot raid you cannot be epic-geared, if you haven't epic-gear you probably cannot manage epic-raid... I believe that many of us have a chance in raid in certain "friendly, tolerant" parties.

I don't really get where this whine about not getting gear comes from. I barely made some teal pieces at 65 before RoI and since then I pugged most of my raid skirms to get jewels and grinded sch/lib with 2 any dps to get s4m for armour pieces. Draigoch for a tank is a laugh and ToO t1 isn't that hard either, up to Saruman. How can u not get your gear if it's your goal?

Could be that on some servers people don't take wardens as seriously as on Snowbourn, so it's not as easy to get groups, but if u can't get in a group, set it up yourself.

And Mirkyl, you do moan.