Thread: Murder with Music; Please explain!

Originally Posted by Sabianor

This is the closest you can get i think.

...which isn't very close at all, especially when the game has hobbits or Men doing the singing.

First of all this is a game....not real life whatsoever...And not only that it is LotR....as Sabianor posted; Lúthien used magical songs and..........DANCING to daze and cast a spell of sleep on the MOST POWERFUL bad guy of that time...Morgoth...Melkor, Melko whatever you wanna call him , I think there was also a version of her facing Suaron as Morgoth lieutenant at the time and besting him, but it changed.....And this was from the most fair Elven maid of the time...a maid...Using her Voice and Magic, which(if you've read Book of lost Tales) Magic and Music was used throughout the entire book from creating things to attempts of healing Trees...As far as Hobbit Minnies them using Magic is pushy to Lore-breaking..But Music was used in LotR, but more on the lines of Elven Spells, Enchantments and Dwarven Chants and curses...So The bottom line is LotrO is very pushy..but this is a game...not everything can be explained..there has to be mechanics...So your best shot is be a Elven Minnie :P and just forgive those unenlightened hobbits who are using power they don't understand!

Furthermore -- remember that you do not have to roleplay yourself as being your class. Minstrels can and do equip mainhand weapons as well as shields. If you can't find a 'reason' for music-damage that you're content with, don't play your minstrel as a minstrel ICly.

Music is a very powerful force in Tolkien's world, the entire universe was created by a song. It's the playing of that song that sustains all life. Minstrels are simply harmonizing that tune in order to focus the magic of it into healing their allies, or playing dissonant/off-key tunes to damage the life the song sustains.

In other words, it's a fantasy game, set in a fantasy world taken from a series of fantasy novels. Use your imagination.

Originally Posted by Moejo

Music is a very powerful force in Tolkien's world, the entire universe was created by a song. It's the playing of that song that sustains all life. Minstrels are simply harmonizing that tune in order to focus the magic of it into healing their allies, or playing dissonant/off-key tunes to damage the life the song sustains.

No, sorry, that's not it at all. The Great Music the Ainur made was just the blueprint for the world and all that was to be: Eru took that and created the world it represented using his own power of creation.

In other words, it's a fantasy game, set in a fantasy world taken from a series of fantasy novels. Use your imagination.

It's a game with some thinly-disguised generic fantasy in it that tramples all over the logic of the setting by having hobbits, of all people, displaying that sort of power. That just plain fails, it's inexcusable.

Music couldn't give anyone power, of itself. Someone with power might use music as a means of expressing it, like when Luthien sang Morgoth and all his court to sleep, or how Finrod Felagund sang during his desperate duel of magic with Sauron. And in both those examples there was no direct harm done: Finrod lost the duel but the result was that Sauron's power crushed his will to resist, allowing Sauron to strip away the magical disguise Finrod had placed on himself and his companions and reveal them for who they really were. That's all good epic stuff, but it's not what Minstrels do. What do we get? Hobbits who can blow away badgers by shouting at them

I always did think it was funny seeing a minstrel in the Ettenmoors kill a creep by shouting at him all the way on the top of Tol Ascarnen by the tyrant.

I jokingly attribute all of the DPS skills to making the music so bad, it hurts to hear it.

Originally Posted by Dol_Amroth_Knight

I always did think it was funny seeing a minstrel in the Ettenmoors kill a creep by shouting at him all the way on the top of Tol Ascarnen by the tyrant.

Right after read this I heard a loud "FOS RO DAH!!" go off in my head, and imagined a creep flying off the hill into the river.

Fight with a pibgorn.

THAT is murder with music.

Florence Foster Jenkins

Enough said.

Florence Foster Jenkins sings "Queen of the Night"

Found this picture of Tintin and Haddock at a Florence Fost ... err ... Bianca Castafiore recital.

I think, personally, that murdering someone with music is some sort of Magical power, not merely any of the rest. When you pluck your strings, you imbue magic into your music, and therefore unleash a wave of, yes, that's right, magical music, to resonate on your opponent. The question is, however, does it kill them? All magic can be used to kill, wound, harm and so on. So if magic is imbued into the music, then no wonder you can summon spectral swords to stabbie stabbie on your opponent.

Then again, That's just me. =)a

Originally Posted by cysan

I think, personally, that murdering someone with music is some sort of Magical power, not merely any of the rest. When you pluck your strings, you imbue magic into your music, and therefore unleash a wave of, yes, that's right, magical music, to resonate on your opponent. The question is, however, does it kill them? All magic can be used to kill, wound, harm and so on. So if magic is imbued into the music, then no wonder you can summon spectral swords to stabbie stabbie on your opponent.

Explaining it in generic fantasy terms doesn't make it fit in any better with LOTR. It actually makes things worse, if anything, because if you say it's magic then hobbits shouldn't be able to use it.

I like to think that it's your one-handed weapon that does most of the physical damage (or at least it does in my case - Noble Cause + Herald's Strike has been my best friend as of late) and the music does... whatever it is that the music does.

I just suppose that it's ancient songs that you play, bound with magic some-or-other. But how should I know?

Your question has been answered appropriately enough I suppose already, but as noted you are not really going to find much justification in the Tolkien cannon for killing a foe with music.

Yes, music holds great power in the Tolkien's mythology, it was indeed used by the Ainur to create a sort of blue print for Arda, but it was Eru who gave that music life and made the world that is. In any event is thought to be a metaphor as the true method of how these "Gods and Demi-gods" communicated and crafted is beyond our understanding.

And yes there are other brief suggestions that music is used in spell-crafting and even war-making, but these events, like the events in the creation of Arda was performed by unique and powerful individuals; by Gods, Demi-gods and the children of Demi-gods.

These examples are thought to be more or less a metaphor as well as the real nature of magic is beyond all but the very wise and certainly nothing any hobbit would ever be capable of understanding let alone willing to study.

Still Hobbits and other people of middle-earth are very fond of music and song and even the goblins have a rich tradition of making songs and music to accompany their daily routine. Perhaps they are tapping into the deep mystery of the music of Arda - because it is said that you can still hear the song of creation on the wind and in the seas.

The whole morale/health - death/defeat explanation is Turbines attempt to satisfy the lore heads, unfortunately it was a half hearted attempt that doesn't make much sense if you think about it too much.

So my advice is - dont think about it too much, because after all it does have a Tolkien-ish vibe to it and who's to say that if the professor was alive today and making video games that he wouldn't have created the same sort of situation?

If that doesn't work for you and you are dead set on sticking to cannon, then just ignore the mini's, lore masters and rune keepers and play a hobbit burg or hunter (not guardian - no hobbit ever tanked with a frying pan)

Hope this helps

D

Okay, here's how I explain things like this in RP. I don't kill things with music, least of all as a hobbit, and least of all ANIMALS with no real concept of music, rhythm, tone, or language to comprehend lyrics. So how does that minstrel level up and rack up all those kills? Personally I just don't use that stuff ICly. That's right, your level and game mechanics do NOT have to be dragged into RP. If you absolutely are dead set on playing a minstrel who has clawed his/her way through all manner of conflict and combat (I don't blame you, interesting stuff to work with that route) then just explain it that you have a weapon and a shield for a reason--TO USE THEM.

You don't have to pluck harp strings to kill things ICly. You don't have to beat badgers with your lute to kill them. Nothing wrong it doing it the way everybody else does--with a sharp pointed object and a shield with which to defend your questionably-armored self. Suspension of disbelief. I've seen suggestions that seem to say EITHER rp killing things with magical music OR don't RP a minstrel. However, you most assuredly can RP a minstrel/bard who, if not utilizing some form of magic, simply slices things up with a sword. You can be skilled in combat AND a talented musician or songwriter! You do NOT have to choose one or the other, nor do you have to include the silly morale/death thing into your RP.

If we roleplayed game mechanics we'd have hunters literally teleporting around, the ability to literally pull our own horse out of our pockets/bags, high level bears would somehow be exceedingly more powerful than low level bears, and any high level player would be able to go all Dragonball Z on your level 5 alt and kill you with their pinky finger.

With suspension of disbelief we can assume hunters don't just teleport about, but instead travel swiftly and more quickly than others (probably by cutting through wildneress), your horse is not stabled within your bags, but you instead made the entire trip on your own horse, bears of similar size and build are also probably of similar strength and tenacity, and higher leveled players are only tougher than you because they may choose to hold more of their questing and dungeoning as IC accomplishments and thus are simply more experienced than you, but probably do not possess more power in their pinky finger than you do in all of your body.

Catch my drift? Trying to RP that you slay trolls with some fancy shouting and harp plucking is ludicrous unless you drag magic into the whole thing--something hobbits probably aren't doing.

Use your imagination, there is no rule of RP saying you have to even RP your class, let alone the mechanics of said class.

IMO the OP sounds like a trekkie fan that wants empirical explanation of cause and effect. Basically, all of middle-earth mythos breaks down--as would the game--quite quickly when examining the physics of the model. For instance, how do Rune-Keepers kill by saying "mean" words or lore-master kill by pounding a stick on the ground? How does the shout of a Warden kill somone, etc.? And as for death versus lost morale, just look at the number of NPCs that we never hear from again because, what?... they never made it to the rez circle?

I think roleplaying is more about plyaing off the lore than demanding the lore fit within preconcieved notions of what is or is not scientifically supported. The lore of LOTRO supports the notion of musical damage, so one would then accept it as part of reality to roleplay in the world. The lore also supports immortal creatures dying, ressurection of characters (oh I mean morale restored), and tiny hobbits chopping down trolls fifty times their size (after being struck by the troll multiple times).

Anyway, what is kind of sad is that everyone in this thread is looking for a non-magical, scientific answer to what is a different world than our own. It is, after all, a fantasy, first and foremost.

Originally Posted by NoobAtHeart

IMO the OP sounds like a trekkie fan that wants empirical explanation of cause and effect. Basically, all of middle-earth mythos breaks down--as would the game--quite quickly when examining the physics of the model. For instance, how do Rune-Keepers kill by saying "mean" words or lore-master kill by pounding a stick on the ground? How does the shout of a Warden kill somone, etc.? And as for death versus lost morale, just look at the number of NPCs that we never hear from again because, what?... they never made it to the rez circle?

I don't think you get it. Turbine have basically broken their own 'morale' metaphor by having it being able to kill anything - it's basically just an overly abstract game mechanic yielding foolish results, and there's no reason anyone should pay any heed to anything that clunky in RP.

If what Minstrels do isn't magic, it shouldn't be able to do any direct harm (i.e. kill anything or anybody). If it is magic, then hobbits shouldn't be able to make use of it. More problems for RP right there if you take it literally.

You also seem to be confusing lore with game mechanics.

I think roleplaying is more about plyaing off the lore than demanding the lore fit within preconcieved notions of what is or is not scientifically supported. The lore of LOTRO supports the notion of musical damage, so one would then accept it as part of reality to roleplay in the world.

Not when it yields stupid results like hobbits shouting at things and killing them. RP means we can gracefully ignore bad game mechanics like that.

It's not about science, either. The question is a simple one: within how Middle-earth is supposed to work, how could someone be killing things with music? And the answer is, that doesn't happen in the books - it's just something Turbine dreamt up. In the books, some powerful beings use spells in the form of songs, but that doesn't need a musical accompaniment of any sort. The reason you might sing or chant a spell rather than just saying it is simple, that things are easier to remember if there's a rhythm to them. (That's why tales of heroes and the like often took the form of epic poems, in the past).

Anyway, what is kind of sad is that everyone in this thread is looking for a non-magical, scientific answer to what is a different world than our own. It is, after all, a fantasy, first and foremost.

No, we're not all doing that. And sure, it's a fantasy but that doesn't mean it doesn't follow any internal 'rules' and Turbine's version simply doesn't make sense. Given that the game isn't really designed with RPers in mind, the game mechanics often don't 'work' in terms explicable in RP.

Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

No, sorry, that's not it at all. The Great Music the Ainur made was just the blueprint for the world and all that was to be: Eru took that and created the world it represented using his own power of creation.


It's a game with some thinly-disguised generic fantasy in it that tramples all over the logic of the setting by having hobbits, of all people, displaying that sort of power. That just plain fails, it's inexcusable.

Music couldn't give anyone power, of itself. Someone with power might use music as a means of expressing it, like when Luthien sang Morgoth and all his court to sleep, or how Finrod Felagund sang during his desperate duel of magic with Sauron. And in both those examples there was no direct harm done: Finrod lost the duel but the result was that Sauron's power crushed his will to resist, allowing Sauron to strip away the magical disguise Finrod had placed on himself and his companions and reveal them for who they really were. That's all good epic stuff, but it's not what Minstrels do. What do we get? Hobbits who can blow away badgers by shouting at them

I really respect your knowledge of Tolkien lore. I do, but I disagree with some of your assumption on rp. LOTRO is a game based upon a world created by a wonderful man who is no longer with us.

I think you are taking game mechanics and destroying the intentions of role players and LOTRO.
For example moral, due to mechanics there is some clunkiness between moral and death; but the overall presumption is that this is defeat in battle not death. This idea is critical when thinking of many skills.

Regarding minstrels:

Have you ever seen a bear, or any creature in the wild. Are they silent. Ever heard a badger hiss before it attack. Sound such as cries or yells are a critical component of real life fighting. Say a small child with his walking stick come across a badger in the wild. The badger hisses and attacks. The child yells back and jabs it with his stick, after some back and forth the badgers starts to fear this noisy child with the stick. After one rather large yell from the child the badger admits defeat and retreats. (Hobbit just defeated the badger)

As to music and it's use in life and even war. Ever used music to sooth or inccrese adrenalin? It works. Minstrels or bards are not just some fictional thing. They are a part of history. As for whipping out a lute in the heart of a struggle, well that is a game mechanic. The flash of light, also a game mechanic, which I am greatful I can easily ignore. Drums in battle, yep those have been used.

Lore-master:
Birds and other animals have often been used for hunting and still are today. Blasts of light, well the Chinese figured that out a long time ago.

Point is game mechanics and timing can be taken literally, which would be lore breaking and make things not so fun. But if this is to be the attitude then there is no room for any game mechanics. I.E. All LOTR battles where small skirmishes compared to the dungeon sweeps of LOTRO.

As I have read many of your post, I am hard pressed to understand why you play this game. It come across as to hating most of the game mechanics. In all fairness what do you like about LOTRO and why do you play it?

Best reguards.

Originally Posted by SamFan

I think you are taking game mechanics and destroying the intentions of role players and LOTRO.
For example moral, due to mechanics there is some clunkiness between moral and death; but the overall presumption is that this is defeat in battle not death. This idea is critical when thinking of many skills.

I'm afraid it's not as straightforward as that, as that presumption only applies to player-characters, not mobs. Mobs 'actually' die (how else do you imagine our characters could be getting to loot assorted chunks of mob all the time?) and that double standard is part of what makes the 'morale' mechanic so clunky.

Originally Posted by SamFan

Lore-master:
Birds and other animals have often been used for hunting and still are today. Blasts of light, well the Chinese figured that out a long time ago.

And who figured out how to conjure up miniature earthquakes?

Edit: I meant to say "All this back-bending to avoid saying LotRO has magic is a bit hard to swallow."

Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

I'm afraid it's not as straightforward as that, as that presumption only applies to player-characters, not mobs. Mobs 'actually' die (how else do you imagine our characters could be getting to loot assorted chunks of mob all the time?) and that double standard is part of what makes the 'morale' mechanic so clunky.

Pretty much what I said, but in a glass half empty view. Moral vs death clunky.

Originally Posted by maxjenius

And who figured out how to conjure up miniature earthquakes?

All this back-bending to avoid saying LotRO does not have magic is a bit hard to swallow.

I know it is a useless battle as the two camps will never agree. But sorry, just because Tolkien does not come out and spell it out for you Tolkien's world has magic. I understand and agree that the game mechanics make this flasshy and the types of spells used might not be perfect lore but to say no magic....?

- First Tolkien takes the trouble to point out that hobbits did not have magic. Now this takes inferring that if hobbits don't have magic others do...

- The dwarves new runes to protect treasure.....

- At the gates to Moria many spells just for opening are mentioned....

- Just because the elves refuse to call what they do magic, does not mean it is not magic...

- Magic rings.... magic weapons.... magic trees (lulling Hobbits to sleep)

The Magic may be fading as time has gone on but there is much magic in Tolkien's world.

Game mechanics do make this far too flashy and there are spells far from lore, but overall...........

LOTRO is a well designed game that has done very well over all to provide a fairly lore based playground for me to enjoy books I have loved for over 25 years.