Thread: Murder with Music; Please explain!

I asked this in my server's global OOC RP channel, and while they cleared a couple things up, they didn't answer everything.

I began by asking how I'm killing all these things with a harp is possible. They went on to explain words have some kind of magical power (They never cleared it if my character was actually capable of using direct magic), and that "health" is actually "Morale", which I knew, and that my minstrel's power is merely demoralizing opponents out of a fight.

But there's a caveat. A couple of them, actually. For example, what of critters? Why do they give a damn if I'm plucking my strings really hard in a threatening manner? Someone brought up Cobras. Not all animals are cobras, so I wager not all of them have musical rhythm and I can see bears just wanting to rip my face off rather than bob their heads to a tune.

Then there's the in-game dialog. I just ran through Othrogoth(sp?), the Great Barrow instance you go through during the main quest. At one point one of the dwarves yell "You've killed my men, but you won't kill me!"
So how exactly did I kill them with my music?

Any insight would be great.

never thought about it really... but, I could try to explain a thing or two, from my understanding...

first of all, every object has a frequency to which it is "tuned" (and by every object I mean just that: Earth, guitar strings, rocks, buildings, etc).
in high school physics you probably heard that you can make one object vibrate, just by starting a vibration in another object close to it, no touching included (sound forks, I believe that is what they are called)

next thing, music is just a bunch of vibrations travelling through matter, that is produced by an instrument (harp, drum, human voice), and these vibrations can cause certain effects to some objects, if applied properly.

lastly, most of us know about an opera singer cracking or breaking a crystal glass into bits with nothing but voice... well, same can be applied to a variety of things (although unlikely)

music is a powerful tool, even in our life... it can psychologically heal people, raise soldiers spirits/morale or scare off an enemy. there are some mentions of music (sound) doing physical damage, or healing to people (can not confirm this, but I have definitely heard of it)

I am no physicist but these are some things that I happened to read or hear about.. In the end, some things are best accepted as they are, even if we can not explain them (it is just a game) =D

you've heard dubstep right it's kinda like that

Beyond the RL physics talked about in the previous post, we know from lore that there is true "magic" in Middle Earth. My take is that certain tunes and combinations of words, invoke that magic and can cause such great demoralization, that it becomes physical harm. Also we know that under the right circumstances, psychological problems can cause physical harm. And the music magically invokes such.

Originally Posted by Zydrate

So how exactly did I kill them with my music?

Any insight would be great.

There's no real insight to be had, as when it comes to actually killing things the 'morale' metaphor's stretched well beyond its breaking point and becomes nonsense. Yes, the game lets you kill badgers by shouting at them and yes, that's extremely silly.

Why not just go with a class that uses swords and axes over harps and clarinets? Then you don't have to give a (fill in the blank) about it.

Originally Posted by Zydrate

So how exactly did I kill them with my music?

Have you heard yourself?! You're awful!

Seriously, Eru Iluvatar and the Ainur (hmm, great name for a band) created the universe with music - the Song of the Ainur. So it stands to reason that music is a very potent force in Middle-earth.

To crib from the Firesign Theater it's "a force so powerful it can only be used for good or evil". It can create or destroy.

Hence killing badgers by singing "Kumbaya" at them.

And finally, I appeal to the authority of Roberta Flack, who in 1973 penned "Killing Me Softly with His Song".

q.e.d.

The whole explanation of Minstrels healing by restoring morale is all fine and good (to a point). But now factor in that this is a game and Minstrels need to be able to level up and grind things, on their own if necessary. Hence you have music and yelling defeating or killing your enemies. It's illogical, irrational, and doesn't fit the LOTR lore or the world of physics as we know it.

But then again, by the same token, this game world is full of enemies that defeat us without killing us and then just stand there and let us retreat to a safe place. We have enemies that, instead of using the tried and true strategy of killing the healers first, always seem to go after whoever yells at them the most or bangs their shields the loudest. We can go anywhere instantaneously by reading a map. We can ride our own horse to Bree, ride a stable master's horse to Rivendell, and then somehow we can summon our own horse again and it arrives in seconds. From level 1 to 75, we have slaughtered more orcs, rescued more people, defeated more evil monsters, travelled to more places in Middle-Earth (and back again), foiled more of the enemy's plans, and basically in all ways outperformed the Fellowship of the Ring and all the other main characters they meet. It's a game. It wouldn't be anywhere near as fun otherwise.

Originally Posted by Wierdo

Why not just go with a class that uses swords and axes over harps and clarinets? Then you don't have to give a (fill in the blank) about it.

Uh, this is the roleplaying section, in case you didn't notice.

There is a claim that morale is not life or health, that when you are defeated you are merely demoralized. Nonsense. When you walk off a fifty foot cliff you are dead. So when a mini is strumming on their lute, the mobs are taking damage, and if they take enough of it they die. It's as simple as that. You can pretend that it's only morale if you feel guilty about violating Tolkien canon, but the only logical explanation is that minstrel songs are in fact magic spells.

This is from lotro.wiki: "The Minstrel is the master of maintaining the survivability of the heroes of Middle-earth. The Minstrel also is able to deal damage to his foes by using his damaging light-based attacks in the forms of songs of power. The minstrel is excellent in groups and solo."

The damage a minstrel does is light-based, not sound based. The attack just takes the form of music. So going back to the physics post, light is a higher wavelength than sound, so it does a higher damage.

Originally Posted by kilderfirkin

There is a claim that morale is not life or health, that when you are defeated you are merely demoralized. Nonsense. When you walk off a fifty foot cliff you are dead. So when a mini is strumming on their lute, the mobs are taking damage, and if they take enough of it they die. It's as simple as that. You can pretend that it's only morale if you feel guilty about violating Tolkien canon, but the only logical explanation is that minstrel songs are in fact magic spells.

Ya, that's my understanding, you demoralize them to death! It's like my hunter that can make nearly anything bleed! I supposed that undead and other thing like that bleed morale, it's demoralizing to be wounded.

Originally Posted by kilderfirkin

There is a claim that morale is not life or health, that when you are defeated you are merely demoralized. Nonsense. When you walk off a fifty foot cliff you are dead. So when a mini is strumming on their lute, the mobs are taking damage, and if they take enough of it they die. It's as simple as that. You can pretend that it's only morale if you feel guilty about violating Tolkien canon, but the only logical explanation is that minstrel songs are in fact magic spells.

Ahaha, that was an amusing read :P

Originally Posted by Abiyah

The damage a minstrel does is light-based, not sound based. The attack just takes the form of music. So going back to the physics post, light is a higher wavelength than sound, so it does a higher damage.

That's a fair point, and really clears things up.

Originally Posted by Abiyah

The damage a minstrel does is light-based, not sound based. The attack just takes the form of music.

Just as a side note to this, in music, the initial wavelength to hit the ear is called "attack", and the following wavelengths that constitute the fullness of the sound is called "decay". Just another way of looking at music as a weapon.

Originally Posted by Lamium

Seriously, Eru Iluvatar and the Ainur (hmm, great name for a band) created the universe with music - the Song of the Ainur. So it stands to reason that music is a very potent force in Middle-earth.

Sorry, but that's not how it was described. The music was like a blueprint for all of creation, but what actually did the creating was Iluvatar's own power. First they made the Great Music, then Iluvatar showed them a vision of what they'd sung about ("Behold your Music!") and then, after a little while, he said "Eä! Let these things Be!" and it was at that moment that the world was created.

'And suddenly the Ainur saw afar a light, as it were a cloud with a living heart of flame; and they knew that this was no vision only, but that Iluvatar had made a new thing: Eä, the World that Is.'

So, that's no excuse for minstrels to be able to blow away badgers (or anything else). Besides that, when you have hobbits doing something that could only be magic, you know something's awry because we're told specifically that hobbits had never studied any form of magic.

Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

Sorry, but that's not how it was described. The music was like a blueprint for all of creation, but what actually did the creating was Iluvatar's own power. First they made the Great Music, then Iluvatar showed them a vision of what they'd sung about ("Behold your Music!") and then, after a little while, he said "Eä! Let these things Be!" and it was at that moment that the world was created.

'And suddenly the Ainur saw afar a light, as it were a cloud with a living heart of flame; and they knew that this was no vision only, but that Iluvatar had made a new thing: Eä, the World that Is.'

So, that's no excuse for minstrels to be able to blow away badgers (or anything else). Besides that, when you have hobbits doing something that could only be magic, you know something's awry because we're told specifically that hobbits had never studied any form of magic.

Seems to be a case of Gameplay and Story Segregation. I just need as much information as I can, in case my bard is asked about it ICly.

Originally Posted by Zydrate

Seems to be a case of Gameplay and Story Segregation. I just need as much information as I can, in case my bard is asked about it ICly.

Just disavow that sort of wacky gameplay in RP. Problem solved.

Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

Just disavow that sort of wacky gameplay in RP. Problem solved.

So my travelling combat-bard just becomes normal McJoe?

Originally Posted by Zydrate

So my travelling combat-bard just becomes normal McJoe?

Yes otherwise nothing makes any sense or approaches anything that could be considered reasonable. Otherwise we'd all be one-shotted by trolls slamming us with their hammers. If you include gameplay mechanics as part of the RP then you've pretty much opened up a can of crazy into the world. It is full of logical inconsistencies and internal errors. It would be like rp-ing that you are really moving in turns while playing D&D.

Originally Posted by Zydrate

So my travelling combat-bard just becomes normal McJoe?

Where did I say 'ordinary'? Just leave out the really dodgy stuff, everything about musicking things to death. It's manifestly broken as a concept, and so it's in no way RP-worthy.

Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

Where did I say 'ordinary'? Just leave out the really dodgy stuff, everything about musicking things to death. It's manifestly broken as a concept, and so it's in no way RP-worthy.

I find the "light damage" fairly viable, magically speaking.

Originally Posted by Zydrate

I find the "light damage" fairly viable, magically speaking.

The game has hobbit minstrels, therefore whatever it is can't be magic. Whichever way you look at it, there's something wrong with it. The real problem, though, is that while there is indeed music with magical effects in the books, those effects never include causing direct physical harm.

Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

The game has hobbit minstrels, therefore whatever it is can't be magic. Whichever way you look at it, there's something wrong with it. The real problem, though, is that while there is indeed music with magical effects in the books, those effects never include causing direct physical harm.

Then I guess I remain confused.

Originally Posted by Zydrate

Then I guess I remain confused.

Nothing to be confused about, it's just that Turbine came up with some screwed-up gameplay that's out of place and isn't even self-consistent. Anything like that's best steered well clear of in RP. There are other things like that, like the Burglar's HiPS and riddling.

Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

...it's just that Turbine came up with some screwed-up gameplay that's out of place and isn't even self-consistent. Anything like that's best steered well clear of in RP. There are other things like that, like the Burglar's HiPS and riddling.

Riddling to create confusion (shown in the game as a stun) is very much according to lore. It's more prevalent in The Hobbit, but it is also alluded to in the trilogy. The same goes for HiPS-- though Bilbo denied being a burglar, it's how he eluded Gollum in the cave, got into the troll's pocket, confronted Smaug, and also how he disappeared at his birthday party. Frodo and Sam both used the ring to HiPS when the situation called for it, though neither were burglars.

Originally Posted by Abiyah

Riddling to create confusion (shown in the game as a stun) is very much according to lore.

Oh, really? And when exactly does that happen, then?

The same goes for HiPS-- though Bilbo denied being a burglar, it's how he eluded Gollum in the cave, got into the troll's pocket, confronted Smaug, and also how he disappeared at his birthday party.

Err, what? The only point at which Bilbo disappeared right in front of anyone was when he put the Ring on!

Frodo and Sam both used the ring to HiPS when the situation called for it, though neither were burglars.

Yes, both used the Ring, the thing there's famously only One of. So what on earth has that got to do with anything? How does that help anyone else disappear entirely? Stealth only appears as invisibility in this game, like others of this genre, because it's too difficult to implement the real thing. To RP as if a character was 'really' invisible when sneaking around - or could 'really' vanish before people's very eyes - would be ridiculous, it'd be treating these cheap-and-cheerful game mechanics as being literal. As a skill, HiPS is pure metagaming as there's no plausible mechanism for how it could happen.

The vast majority of gameplay mechanics can't be taken as IC otherwise you've gone down the lane to crazy town where everything is upside down wacko. Hips, stealth, mini's with space based lasers. Hobbit's taking a hit from a troll's hammer and living. Bear's indoors. Hunter's teleporting. Heck even the idea of classes doesn't make sense.

Originally Posted by Raptor38

Hips, stealth, mini's with space based lasers. Hobbit's taking a hit from a troll's hammer and living. Bear's indoors. Hunter's teleporting. Heck even the idea of classes doesn't make sense.

A lot of that I haven't seen attempted in character, though. I've seen pets indoors, but usually from a person without an RP tag on.

The hobbits taking hits, I can agree with. There was a similar inconsistency in WoW raids where the several roleplayers in it (Since it wasn RP server after all) just wondered why that gigantic boss just didn't step on us and win whichever war it represented.

Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

Besides that, when you have hobbits doing something that could only be magic, you know something's awry because we're told specifically that hobbits had never studied any form of magic.

Actually, J.R.R. Tolkien says "There is little or no magic about them, except the ordinary everyday sort which helps them to disappear quietly and quickly when large stupid folk like you and me come blundering along".

So Hobbits do have magic, just not very much.

Originally Posted by Himodhur

Actually, J.R.R. Tolkien says "There is little or no magic about them, except the ordinary everyday sort which helps them to disappear quietly and quickly when large stupid folk like you and me come blundering along".

So Hobbits do have magic, just not very much.

'Actually', he also said in the Prologue to LOTR that '...Hobbits have never, in fact, studied magic of any kind' and that their elusiveness was entirely natural. So no, hobbits did not do magic.

Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

So no, hobbits did not do magic.

Perhaps it's the instruments that have the magic - hobbits can use magical items.

That's a stretch.
Every instrument?

Still, this doesn't help me.

The physics model is still your best explanation. As noted form the minstrel description, their damage is light-based, taking the form of sound. Sound is basically "watered down" light. They both are frequencies, light having a more rapid pulse than sound. One of the most destructive forces in nature is an earthquake-- the damage they do is sonic damage, very low frequency, which we feel as vibration (akin to a subwoofer-- it generates sound we can't hear, below our aural range, but we can feel it). Simply increase the amplitude, light is generated. There's no "magic" to it.

The range of human perception, from aural to visual, is very limited. Just because we can't see or hear something doesn't mean it isn't there.

Originally Posted by Abiyah

The physics model is still your best explanation. As noted form the minstrel description, their damage is light-based, taking the form of sound. Sound is basically "watered down" light. They both are frequencies, light having a more rapid pulse than sound. One of the most destructive forces in nature is an earthquake-- the damage they do is sonic damage, very low frequency, which we feel as vibration (akin to a subwoofer-- it generates sound we can't hear, below our aural range, but we can feel it). Simply increase the amplitude, light is generated. There's no "magic" to it.

The range of human perception, from aural to visual, is very limited. Just because we can't see or hear something doesn't mean it isn't there.

I guess I can get behind this.

Originally Posted by Abiyah

The physics model is still your best explanation. As noted form the minstrel description, their damage is light-based, taking the form of sound. Sound is basically "watered down" light.

They both are frequencies, light having a more rapid pulse than sound. One of the most destructive forces in nature is an earthquake-- the damage they do is sonic damage, very low frequency, which we feel as vibration (akin to a subwoofer-- it generates sound we can't hear, below our aural range, but we can feel it). Simply increase the amplitude, light is generated. There's no "magic" to it.

Worst - explanation - ever. Physics is now hiding whimpering in a corner, covering its ears and muttering "Make it stop! Make it stop!" over and over to itself.

Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

Worst - explanation - ever. Physics is now hiding whimpering in a corner, covering its ears and muttering "Make it stop! Make it stop!" over and over to itself.

I'm not seeing a correction, though. Just an insult.

Originally Posted by Zydrate

I'm not seeing a correction, though. Just an insult.

It was silly to drag science into in the first place, but to make matters worse Abiyah was just throwing words around. Sound is waves of pressure travelling through a physical medium, such as air; light is electromagnetic radiation, which can propagate through free space all by itself. Two different physical phenomena.

Or we could just relax and enjoy slaying enemies of freedom and justice with good old rock and roll

Frankly, I just wander about when I'm playing my Hobbit minstrel humming Roberta Flack's famous song. (lol)

Thus befell the contest of Sauron and Felagund which is renowned. For Felagund strove with Sauron in songs of power, and the power of the King was very great; but Sauron had the mastery, as is told in the Lay of Leithian:

He chanted a song of wizardry,
Of piercing, opening, of treachery,
Revealing, uncovering, betraying.
Then sudden Felagund there swaying
Sang in answer a song of staying,
Resisting, battling against power,
Of secrets kept, strength like a tower,
And trust unbroken, freedom, escape;
Of changing and of shifting shape
Of snares eluded, broken traps,
The prison opening, the chain that snaps.
Backwards and forwards swayed their song.
Reeling and foundering, as ever more strong
The chanting swelled, Felagund fought,
And all the magic and might he brought
Of Elvenesse into his words.
Softly in the gloom they heard the birds
Singing afar in Nargothrond,
The sighing of the Sea beyond,
Beyond the western world, on sand,
On sand of pearls in Elvenland.
Then the gloom gathered; darkness growing
In Valinor, the red blood flowing
Beside the Sea, where the Noldor slew
The Foamriders, and stealing drew
Their white ships with their white sails
From lamplit havens. The wind wails,
The wolf howls. The ravens flee.
The ice mutters in the mouths of the Sea.
The captives sad in Angband mourn.
Thunder rumbles, the fires burn —
And Finrod fell before the throne.

Of Beren and Lúthien, The Silmarillion

This is the closest you can get i think.