Thread: Instruments out of tune

Is it just me or are many of the instruments out of tune with each other not to mention with themselves when comparing the low registers to the high registers.

First and foremost many of the instruments do not sound in tune with other instruments.

Horn is unusable in a group because it doesn't seem in tune with any instruments I tried pairing it with.

My favorite instrument is bagpipe, but its high register is very screeching and causes people to moan about it sounding bad if you use it. In low register it sounds great, almost like an organ which I tend to use it to be the backing chords to the melody. I have a nice version of Stars and Stripes where I split the melody between clarinet to bagpipe and back to clarinet for variety that worked out well enough.

Flute sounds great when the notes are close enough to each other but you spread em out and it sounds more and more out of tune. And it doesn't really sound very in-tune with other instruments unless the notes are close to what the other instrument is playing.

Clarinet seems to suffer the same problem as the flute but less severe. Dunno why they force us to have these cough effects in the octaves, why not just pitch down the last samples two times to generate the final notes instead of having it gimped forcing you to either transcribe songs up to account for it or just suffer the occasional cough sound in the music.

Pibgorn is too loud and has a broken scale (Some notes are just randomly in the progression from low to high incorrect The lowest A for instance is a random low low octave note that is out of place and sounds like its a vuvuzuela), if those were fixed it seems like it might be decent. It sounds like it could work well as the melodic line as it is employs a little tremolo-esque effect on some of the higher samples.

Harp is okay, though I think low register dominates high register in terms of volume which does ruin it to some degree.

Theorbo is okay, though it tends to sound muddled if any song you use has a bass solo its better to give it to another instrument as the samples just all blur together on it.

Lute, Cowbell, and Drum are great

I'd rather have these issues solved than just piling on more isntruments.

I agree with everything you say; I've been playing with this music system a lot over the last few weeks and came to many of the same conclusions...

On a positive note, I do appreciate the charm these instruments have as they are, and I think their imperfections help support the fantasy-medieval feel of the game setting. So I've enjoyed working within the boundaries of their limitations; trying to do the most I can with the limited resources.

I've been a rl musician for over 20yrs but never have I considered playing with electronic music before. I think it's because with electronic music the options are truly limitless, and that overwhelms me. But playing around with it inside the lotro confines has been a blast : D

But no matter what format music is enjoyed in...being in-tune is pretty important!!

/agree

Clarinet is the biggest problem in terms of tuning issues, based on my observations.
I do echo though--that even so, the sound of in-game instruments works very well with "period" music--medieval/renaissance up through baroque.

/agreed

Except for lute and harp, all of the instruments sound out of tune, especially at the high/low ends of their registers. Over the years I just sort of got used to it, but the other day I sent a friend a youtube of a band playing music in LOTRO, his response was "wow those LOTRO instruments really sound bad". It really put things back in perspective for me.

Argh!

I had originally just planned to forget this little essay that I wrote some time ago, but I suppose it can be useful in this thread ...

A subjective analysis of LOTRO wind instrument sound and tuning and a brief essay on the importance of clarinet tuning
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Using the samples and sample ID's from ABC player's "LotroInstruments.sf2" as reference; according to several posts by Digero in the ABC player thread on the official LOTRO forums these samples are genuine LOTRO instrument samples.

My method of analysis was as follows: I used the NN-XT sampler from Propellerhead Reason to load the samples in the sound font file, for each sample in the set comparing to a unison reference tone and adjusting pitch by ear using the old skool "eliminate difference tone beating" method that has been used by for centuries. I have tuned the sustained note rather than the attack. As I haven't used a tuning device of any kind the measurements are of course subjective and partially erratic (I become victim of ear fatigue like anyone else), but it is my firm belief that they are damn close.

------
Bagpipe:
Pretty much OK. Loud like the real thing. The drone has the emphasised second harmonic that characterises its sound. One sample may be slightly off but it's really nothing.

bagpipe_45 2 cents low

------
Flute:
Really inconsistent intonation and sound quality across the sample set. Bottom register has an annoying breathy attack that is far too long. Top register is plagued by a really sharp intonation that takes far too long to settle (it glides gently downwards for the first second or so). In the topmost sample, flute_70, there is a strange noise around the 3 second mark where the flute briefly sounds the tube fundamental instead of second overblow (perfect twelfth below the played note). Might be a gimmick but it's a bad one in my opinion.

flute_38 3 cents low
flute_42 9 cents high
flute_46 25 cents high
flute_50 1 cent high
flute_54 2 cents low
flute_58 4 cents low
flute_62 4 cents low
flute_66 10 cents high
flute_70 11 cents low

------
Horn:
Sound and intonation is decent, the breath sound on low C is interesting, may be useful for "jazzy" effects.

horn_40 14 cents low
horn_45 11 cents low
horn_50 7 cents low
horn_55 5 cents low
horn_60 11 cents low
horn_65 4 cents low
hone_70 14 cents high

------
Clarinet:
The sound samples that turned me from a clarinet lover to a clarinet hater. Sound is clarinet-ish enough, has the right blend of harmonics; fundamental plus overtone 2 and 4. In my personal opinion the attack is much too slow, making fast passages and staccato play impossible. I got no idea what the meaning behind the cough is. Intonation is not too bad. Tuning, however ...

clarinet_40 12 cents high
clarinet_45 29 cents high
clarinet_50 17 cents high
clarinet_55 29 cents high
clarinet_60 4 cents high
clarinet_65 14 cents high
clarinet_70 14 cents high

------
An out of tune clarinet in an orchestra is particularly unattractive because of its overtone content.

Because "a major third" (fourth harmonic, major nineteenth above fundamental) and "a perfect fifth" (second harmonic, perfect twelfth above fundamental) are so pronounced in the clarinet sound spectrum, both the out of tune fundamental and the out of tune overtones will clash severely with everything else's fundamentals and overtones, producing an extremely unpleasant "muddy" overall pitch sensation.

It doesn't really matter much what chord position you put the poor untuned clarinet in, you get tons of unwanted clashes. Let's stick to simple non-inverted triads:

If it plays root, first harmonic becomes an out of tune perfect fifth and second harmonic becomes an out of tune major third. Disaster.
If it plays the minor third, first harmonic becomes an out of tune minor seventh and second harmonic becomes an out of tune perfect fifth. Interesting, but ... disaster.
If it plays the major third, first harmonic becomes an out of tune major seventh and second harmonic becomes an out of tune minor sixth. It should be noted that even well tuned clarinets in the hands of skilled players generally suck at playing major thirds in non-extended chords because of these (in)famous clashes. Arrangement 101. This of course has never stopped composers from inventing wonderful ways of sneaking the clarinet in on a major chord third, such is human nature!
If it plays the fifth, first harmonic becomes an out of tune major second and second harmonic becomes an out of tune major seventh. Exciting, but ... no thanks.

A well tuned clarinet, on the other hand, adds much nice color and clear harmonic superstructure to the orchestra sound.

So I really really want a well tuned clarinet. I wouldn't even mind the other instrument tuning discrepancies if I just had that.

Please.

In music the ear is king! When we play in a real life orchestra we listen to each other all the time and adjust (to make everybody sound great, right?).

With sequenced electronic music (like LOTRO music) we don't have the luxury of on-the-fly corrective intonation; the samples should be right on the money. Which they are not.

That is amazing work, Phede. Thank you for sharing it with us!

I have only recently played three instruments on my two characters.

Lute sounds fine.
Clarinet sounds OK but sometimes seems off.
But the Horn sounds like an Electric Synthesizer. I would have expected a deeper sound more like a Tuba.

I wonder if any music-minded dev ever looks in the Music Forum. Wouldn't it be great if we got some love on these instruments? Thanks for copying your work here Phede, maybe it will help.

Too bad the files are not on a player's computer, if someone who knew how to make them sound good could have modified them with permission, that would be great.

/agree

I honestly have no idea how hard or easy this would be to fix at this point, but even a few small adjustments would make a huge difference in group playing.

Originally Posted by Elinnea

/agree

I honestly have no idea how hard or easy this would be to fix at this point, but even a few small adjustments would make a huge difference in group playing.

All the notes are just samples(short recordings), fixing their tuning would be as simple as replacing the off-key samples with properly intonated ones.

Originally Posted by RomeoJGuy

Flute sounds great when the notes are close enough to each other but you spread em out and it sounds more and more out of tune. And it doesn't really sound very in-tune with other instruments unless the notes are close to what the other instrument is playing.

I agree. As a flute-player IRL I can say it doesn't sound right. It would be cool if they fixed it.

I read somewhere else the guy who did the original music score is doing RoR, I wonder if they can ask him to redo the instrument sounds.