Thread: Gondor and the Ring

Hello!

Well, I am a big LotR fan, and today I was wondering... Boromir was sent to the Council of Elrond to see if he could make the ring go to Gondor. Denethor intended to use the Ring against Mordor, use it to become more powerfull and to use it as a weapon.

My question is: how wold that work? What power could a common Man like Denethor achieve by weilding the One Ring?
It's not like he could multiply the number of his soldiers, or stuff like that, is it?

Your thoughts plz!

Unfortuanteley the Denethor of the movies and Denthor of the books are quite different. The movie Denethor is too negative, almost a villain, the books Denethor was a much better man. In the books Denethor shows no such intention of using the ring against Sauron. What he did was to prepare Minas Tirith for war. If not for all of his preparations the city wouldn't have lasted until Theoden and Aragorn arrived.

After Osgiliath was taken from Gondorian forces and the bridge of Osgiliath was broken down, Faramir and Boromir had a dream,

"In that dream I thought the eastern sky grew dark and there was a growing thunder, but in the West a pale light lingered, and out of it I heard a voice, remote but clear, crying,

Seek for the Sword that was broken:
In Imladris it dwells;
There shall be counsels taken
Stronger than Morgul-spells.
There shall be shown a token
That Doom is near at hand,
For Isildur's Bane shall waken,
And the Halfling forth shall stand."

They told of the dream to Denthor and he knew that Imladris was the elven name for Rivendell. So Boromir came to Elrond to ask about the dream.

It was Boromir's own idea to use the ring to defend Gondor, this was probably because he didn't understand how the rings of power worked. They gave power to a person depending on their own original power, so I doubt Denethor using it would have gained anything except longer life and invisibility.

Well, considering that plot line only appeared in the movies, it's difficult to say with any certainty what Denethor might have thought would happen. However, we do know that the rings give power according to the measure of each possessor. Sam, at one point, says that if Galadriel had the Ring she would put things to rights and make some folk pay for their dirty work. Galadriel then agrees that she would indeed. If she could do that merely be possessing the Ring, who's to say that Denethor couldn't have used it to similar effect?

It was said that Mordor's greatest weapon was fear. Boromir's intentions regarding his desire to bring the Ring to Gondor were to enable him to take Command, and to be able to drive away the hosts of Mordor and all Men would flock to his banner, which would have been easily within the scope of the ring's power. I always assumed Denethor in the movies had similar intentions.

Originally Posted by Elenluin-Menelloth

Unfortuanteley the Dnethor of the movies and Denthor of the books are quite different.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by TauRedfield

What power could a common Man like Denethor achieve by weilding the One Ring?

Without confusing the film versus the books, in this particular case Denethor may have been mistaken about what power he would get from the ring assuming that all he knows is that it's "powerful". However, "One Ring to rule them all" says it all: Sauron's ring had the power to command/influence all the other Rings of Power. He could pull the strings of the people wielding the other rings. For more detailed information look here and here.

Sauron is a Maia. When he created the Ring he invested his spirit and power in it. In wielding it, one would essentially wield the power of a Maia. Gandalf was also a Maia, and you saw what he could do...

Originally Posted by Robhob

Without confusing the film versus the books, in this particular case Denethor may have been mistaken about what power he would get from the ring assuming that all he knows is that it's "powerful". However, "One Ring to rule them all" says it all: Sauron's ring had the power to command/influence all the other Rings of Power. He could pull the strings of the people wielding the other rings. For more detailed information look here and here.

Sauron is a Maia. When he created the Ring he invested his spirit and power in it. In wielding it, one would essentially wield the power of a Maia. Gandalf was also a Maia, and you saw what he could do...

That doesn't sound right... Like Elenluin-Menelloth said it would give invisibility and longer life. For exemple, Bilbo didn't get the power of a Maiar when the used the ring, several times.

The Ring could be wielded by a mortal, which is why Sauron was so fearful when Aragorn challenged him (and beat him) by looking into the Orthanc Palantir. So fearful that he launched his attack early and ultimately blew the whole thing. He thought Aragorn had the Ring and was planning to use it.

Denethor in the books was actually quite similar to Denethor in the movies. Both were immensely powerful, knowledgeable, arrogant, and prideful rulers. Both had spent too much time looking into the Minas Tirith Palantir, and both had gotten ensnared by despair. The book makes it clear that the blood of Numenor (the highest Men) ran pure in Denethor, which was rare at this late time. Don't forget, it was a mortal -- Isildur -- who stepped on Sauron's neck and cut the Ring from his finger the first time! It's perfectly possible that, if Denethor (or Aragorn, Faramir, perhaps Boromir, perhaps even Prince Imrahil) had gained the Ring and wanted to use it, he could have.

The Ring would have given him power of command and dominion. He could have rallied flocks to his side, struck mortal terror in his foes. He could have ordered every man, woman, and child to arms against whatever enemy withstood him, and they would have obeyed. He could have even won victory against Sauron.

Unfortunately, he'd just end up the next Sauron. The Ring would be working its evil on him at the same time, and as he gained more power & dominion he'd thirst for still more & more. Until he was no better than Sauron. The new Dark Lord.

Neither Denethor nor Boromir knew about the ring specifically when Boromir volunteered to go to the Council. They knew Isildur's Bane had been found, but didn't know exactly what it was. It's true, though, they thought it (as an unknown talisman) would be a boon to Gondor. But such was the power of the ring that Boromir only recognized the truth of it at his point of death, and it reached through even that to "infect" Denethor with his madness.

Denethor's downfall was his pride, and in that pride the inherent greed that goes with it. He thought he had commanded the palantir to do his bidding, when in actuality his will was bent to what Sauron desired. If you recall, Denethor even refused to acknowledge that a rightful heir to the throne of Gondor was on the scene. It was through that pride and the associated greed, that the ring could do it's "magic" (and I don't mean the "turn people invisible" magic). This was true even of Gollum, in his Smeagol days-- it was "his birthday" (pride), therefore the ring should be his (greed). The hobbits were "lacking" in these two vices to a large extent, and that's why the ring didn't affect them as it did others.

Originally Posted by TauRedfield

Boromir was sent to the Council of Elrond to see if he could make the ring go to Gondor. Denethor intended to use the Ring against Mordor, use it to become more powerfull and to use it as a weapon.

This is a false premise. Boromir went to Rivendell to learn about the message that he and Faramir received in a vision:

Seek for the Sword that was broken;
In Imladris it dwells;
There shall be counsels taken
Stronger than Morgul-spells.
There shall be shown a token
That Doom is near at hand,
For Isildur's Bane shall waken,
And the Halfling forth shall stand.

He arrived in Imladris the morning that the Council was held.


Denethor thought the plan to send the Ring to Mordor in the hands of a "witless halfling" was tantamount to handing the Ring over to the Enemy. He would have preferred to have kept it safe in Minas Tirith, using it only in the uttermost need. Gandalf scoffed at this idea, stating that Denethor would have used the Ring to his own ruin.

Originally Posted by Derethil

That doesn't sound right... Like Elenluin-Menelloth said it would give invisibility and longer life. For exemple, Bilbo didn't get the power of a Maiar when the used the ring, several times.

Galadriel told Frodo why it didn't work like that, that the Ring would only grant power according to the measure of its possessor and to even try to wield the Ring properly someone would have to have been 'far stronger' than he was, and to have trained their will towards the domination of others. Moreover, she warned him 'Do not try! It would destroy you.'

Also, remember that in the books, by the end of the third age, most Gondorians didn't even know what Isildor's bane was. Consider Boromir and Elrond's words at the Council of Elrond:

"At this, the stranger, Boromir, broke in. 'So that is what became of the ring!' he cried. 'If ever such a tale was told in the South, it has long been forgotten. I have heard of the great ring of him that we do not name, but we believed that it perished from the world in the ruin of his first realm. Isildur took it! that is tidings indeed!"

'Alas, yes!' said Elrond. 'Isildur took it, as should not have been. It should have been cast then into Ororuin's fire nigh at hand where it was made. but few marked what Isildur did."



And Look to the conversation of Faramir with Sam and Frodo:

"....For you must know that much is still preserved of ancient lore among the Rulers of the city that is not spread abroad."

and

"Now Faramir's voice sank to a whisper. 'But this much I learned, or guessed, and I have kept it ever secret in my heart since: that Isildur took somewhat from the hand of the Unnamed, ere he went away from Gondor, never to be seen among mortal men again. Here I thought was the answer to Mithrandir's questioning. But it seemed then a matter that concerned only the seekers after ancient learning. Nor when the riddling words of our dream were debated among us, did I think if Isildur's Bane as being this same thing. For Isildur was ambushed and slain by orc-arrows, according to the only legend that we knew, and Mithrandir had never told me more. What in truth this Thing is I cannot yet guess, but some heirloom of power and peril it must be. A fell weapon, perchance, devised by the Dark Lord. If it were a thing that gave advantage in battle, I can well believe that Boromir, the proud and fearless, often rash, ever anxious for the victory of Minas Tirith (and his own glory therein), might desire such a thing and be allured by it. Alas that ever he went on that errand! I should have been chosen by my father and the elders, but he put himself forward, as being the older and the hardier (both true), and he would not be stayed. But fear no more! I would not take this thing, if it lay by the highway. Not were Minas Tirith falling in ruin and I alone could save her, so, using the weapon of the Dark Lord for her good and my glory. No, I do not wish for such triumphs, Frodo son of Drogo."

and finally:

(Sam, speaking of Boromir): "....and it's my opinion that in Lorien he first saw clearly what I guessed sooner: what he wanted. From the moment he first saw it he wanted the Enemy's Ring!'

'Sam!' cried Frodo aghast. He had fallen deep into his own thoughts for a while, and came out of them suddenly and too late.

'Save me!' said Sam turning white, and then flushing scarlet. 'There I go again! When ever you open your big mouth you put your foot in it the Gaffer used to say to me, and right enough. O dear, O dear! Now look here, sir!' he turned, facing up to Faramir with all the courage that he could muster. 'Don't you go taking advantage of my master because his servant's no better than a fool. You've spoken very handsome all along, put me off my guard, talking of Elves and all. But handsome is as handsome does we say. Now's a chance to show your quality.'

'So it seems,' said Faramir slowly and very softly, with a strange smile. 'So that is the answer to all the riddles! The One Ring that was thought to have perished form the world. And Boromir tried to take it by force? and you escaped?......"

......'alas for Boromir! It was too sore a trial!' he said. "how you have increased my sorrow, you two strange wanderers from a far country, bearing the peril of Men! But you are less judges of men than I of Halfings. We are truth-speakers, we men of Gondor. We boast seldom, and then perform, or die in the attempt. Not if I found it on the highway would I take it I said. Even if I were such a man as to desire this thing, and even though I knew not clearly what this thing was when I spoke, still I should take those words as a vow, and be held by them. But I am not such a man. Or I am wise enough to know that there are some perils from which a man must flee."




I couldn't help but put it all here--Faramir is my favorite character, and I love this scene The movies do such injustice to his character......despite the fact that David Windham did an excellent job in portraying him!

At any rate, the point of this is that in the books, the men of Gondor did not know what Isildur's Bane was, and had thought the ring had been lost--at least, those few that even still remembered it. The words of the dream, Isildur's Bane, was a puzzle to them, and they even thought it was an arrow, as an arrow is what killed Isildur. Denethor probably guessed at some point that it was the one ring, but he certainly didn't know it for sure, at least, not until Gandalf's arrival in the city on the eve of battle and his interview with Faramir then.




And do not forget Gandalf's words to Pippin concerning both Denethor and Faramir:

"He is not as other men of this time, Pippin, and whatever be his descent from father to son, by some chance the blood of Westernesse runs nearly true in him; as it does in his other son, Faramir, and yet did not in Boromir whom he loved best. He has long sight. He can perceive, if he bends his will thither, much of what is passing in the minds of men, even of those that dwell far off. It is difficult to deceive him, and dangerous to try."





In Aragorn, the blood of Westernesse did run true and he was certainly capable of wielding the one ring. The Denethor of the books was very close to Aragorn in power, and thus I think he too could have wielded it as well. After all, he did master the Palantia, and while what he saw in it was affected by and twisted by Sauron, nevertheless, he did win in contest of wills with Sauron and was not overthrown in mind by Sauron, such as was Saruman, coincidentally. That in and of itself indicates that Denethor was an extremely powerful person, much, much more so than as portrayed in the movies. The only difference was that Aragorn wrenched complete control of it from Sauron and was able to use it as he wished, while what Denethor saw was influenced by Sauron.

However, Denethor was extremely proud and cold, calculating, described as a spider by Pippin at one point, and would most definitely have been twisted by the ring should it have fallen into his power. While he did not know exactly what Isildur's Bane of his sons' dream was, he most certainly probably guessed at some point, or come close, as Faramir had. And Denethor certainly had figured out who Aragorn was, at any rate.

I have a side question that is sort of related to this topic: what do you think Gandalf meant when he said that Denethor could perceive much of what is passing in the minds of men, even of those that dwell far off? Do you think he, and by extension Faramir and Aragorn, could actually read minds?

Originally Posted by AllySanders

I have a side question that is sort of related to this topic: what do you think Gandalf meant when he said that Denethor could perceive much of what is passing in the minds of men, even of those that dwell far off? Do you think he, and by extension Faramir and Aragorn, could actually read minds?

I don't think that's what Tolkien was suggesting. I expect it was more of an intuitive understanding of men's characters and their likely reactions to events. The same thing that lets a great leader give that awe inspiring speech that rallies the people or the troops to great deeds. Aragorn certainly had this.

Originally Posted by AllySanders

I have a side question that is sort of related to this topic: what do you think Gandalf meant when he said that Denethor could perceive much of what is passing in the minds of men, even of those that dwell far off? Do you think he, and by extension Faramir and Aragorn, could actually read minds?

Originally Posted by tuor66

I don't think that's what Tolkien was suggesting. I expect it was more of an intuitive understanding of men's characters and their likely reactions to events. The same thing that lets a great leader give that awe inspiring speech that rallies the people or the troops to great deeds. Aragorn certainly had this.

I'd have to agree with tuor here. With age comes an experienced understanding of human character. In that sense, yes, Denethor could "read minds", intuiting what a person would think about certain situations and how they'd act or react.

As part of the charismatic persona of a great leader, there's an understanding of how people think.

Originally Posted by AllySanders

I have a side question that is sort of related to this topic: what do you think Gandalf meant when he said that Denethor could perceive much of what is passing in the minds of men, even of those that dwell far off? Do you think he, and by extension Faramir and Aragorn, could actually read minds?

Denethor, Faramir, and Aragorn are all of pure Númenorean blood. Although they clearly have intelligence and wisdom beyond other mortal Men, there is no evidence that they can read minds

Consider what Gandalf says of Denethor in his warning to Pippin:

'Be careful with your words, Master Peregrin! This is not time for hobbit pertness. Théoden is a kindly old man. Denethor is of another sort, proud and subtle, a man of far greater lineage and power, though he is not called a king.

Denethor is described further when compared and contrasted with Gandalf, a Maia:

Denethor looked indeed much more like a great wizard than Gandalf did, more kingly, beautiful, and powerful; and older. Yet by a sense other than sight Pippin perceived that Gandalf had the greater power and the deeper wisdon, and a majesty that was veiled.

Consider what Faramir tells Frodo and Sam at Henneth Annûn:

'...But you are less judges of Men than I of Halflings. We are truth-speakers, we men of Gondor...'

Faramir learns of the quest of the Ring, not through torture, deception, or mind-reading, but through intelligent questioning and observation. He listens not only to the words of the hobbits, but presumably also reads their body language and facial expressions. As a truth-speaker, Faramir recognizes when someone is being truthful and, conversely, when someone is not.

Now Denethor could observe people from afar with the palantír, and with his great intellect deduce what they are thinking.

Originally Posted by oldbadgerbrock

Denethor, Faramir, and Aragorn are all of pure Númenorean blood.

Ah, no. There were no more pure-blooded Numenoreans - not even Aragorn. Denethor was something of a throwback: by chance, he'd inherited the old traits.

"by some chance the blood of Westernesse runs nearly true in him, as it does in his other son, Faramir, and yet did not in Boromir"

The Nazgûl were mortals who wielded rings of power-- their leader, the Witch-king, was of Númenorean descent, presumably a great leader of Men before he received his ring from Sauron. With its power he was able to build a mighty realm in the north, destroy Fornost, and set the Dúnedain running... until Eärnur's and Círdan's forces defeated his army.

I imagine that Denethor would have been even more powerful, if he had taken the One Ring.

Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

There were no more pure-blooded Numenoreans - not even Aragorn.

'But I shall die,' said Aragorn. 'For I am a mortal man, and though being what I am and of the race of the West unmingled, I shall have life far longer than other men, yet that is but a little while..."

Source: Tolkien, J.R.R. 'The Steward and the King', The Return of the King.

Of course the ancestry of Elros, the first King of Númenor and Aragorn's forebear, was a mixture of Elf and Man, so Aragorn would have a trace of Elven blood, albeit very small as he was many generations removed. (Aragorn was born nearly 6000 years after Elros' death.)

Originally Posted by ferdinanda

The Nazgûl were mortals who wielded rings of power-- their leader, the Witch-king, was of Númenorean descent, presumably a great leader of Men before he received his ring from Sauron. With its power he was able to build a mighty realm in the north, destroy Fornost, and set the Dúnedain running... until Eärnur's and Círdan's forces defeated his army.

I imagine that Denethor would have been even more powerful, if he had taken the One Ring.

Hmmm. I'm not sure If I'd say Denethor would have been more powerful, though perhaps he might have, as he was certainly a very powerful man. Aragorn certainly would have. Denethor--maybe. If not more powerful, Denethor certainly would have been close and most definitely an enemy to contend with if he had the one ring.

The Gondorians were definitely no longer pure Numenorian descent by the end of the Third Age, as their civil war and strife over the millenia as well as their own penchant for fixating on the past instead of looking toward the future (i.e. musing long on their ancestry instead of having children to carry on their posterity) had all combined to cause them to dwindle. If you remember, after the civil war, many of the people from Rohvanion came south to live in Gondor, and the two ethnic groups slowly merged into one. Gondor also absorbed the lower peoples who had been living there when the Numenorians returned. In the Two Towers, Faramir explains this to Frodo and Sam. he tells them that in their day, the Gondorians had become men of the Twilight, akin to the Rohirrim, with the only difference being they had a much more noble past. This is why at this time, a Gondorian's life expectancy had dwindled down to roughly 100 years of age.

The Dunedain of the north, however, were much less apt to mingle with other peoples and kept themselves apart. While they did absorb the peoples of the Twilight Hills in the days of Elendil, they seemed to have remained much more ethnically pure. Perhaps that was due to the fact that the north simply wasn't nearly as populated as the southern realm and due to the continual wars they had with themselves and Angmar. After the northern kingdom's fall, they became a hidden people, gathering their survivors together into small, hidden villages away from the main population centers of the North-most likely south of Rivendell in the Angle area. This kept them apart from the other ethic groups and thus kept them much, much closer to Numenor. You'll notice this by looking at the family trees in Gondor and in the north. by the latter part of the Third Age, as mentioned before, the life expectancy for the Gondorians was about 100 years. In the north, the life expectancy of the Dunedain rangers--assuming they actually lived out their complete life, which in truth was rare as most of them died in battle--was around 250 years. This separation in the North is shown in how the Breelanders treated the rangers.

So, Aragorn was very nearly pure Numenorian--probably not 100%, but very close to it, say 95%. That is also why he was such the champion he was, and why he seemed to be almost elven-like in his abilities and stamina and strength. Denethor and Faramir, as stated in the books, were very near only by genetical chance, and probably not as close as Aragorn in any case. Faramir's lifespan of 120 years at that time was rather remarkable.

Of course, the whole "high man" and "middle man" and "low man" thing always bugs me anyway, and smacks of major prejudice, but that's probably only because I'm an American and a product of the "melting pot"

Originally Posted by oldbadgerbrock

'But I shall die,' said Aragorn. 'For I am a mortal man, and though being what I am and of the race of the West unmingled, I shall have life far longer than other men, yet that is but a little while..."

It looks to me (although I might be wrong) that Aragorn would have to have been mistaken there, according to Tolkien's genealogies. You have to go a long way back to find it but the mother of one of his ancestors was the daughter of King Ondoher of Gondor: Ondoher was descended from Eldacar, whose father Valacar had married a Northwoman called Vidumavi. That would make Aragorn ever-so-slightly 'mingled'.

Perhaps female ancestors don't count?

well, I did say mostly pure, not completely

When it comes to family trees, I think Tolkien took a Biblical approach--list the heir primarily, and only mention other relatives, especially females, if they did something important to be remembered.

I really need to learn to do that, too, when I'm making up family genealogies for my characters.......Especially for my elves

On Númenoreans and the ability to "use" the One Ring: Isildur was, most certainly, Númenorean. All the One Ring did to him was to turn him invisible - except for the Elendilmir, his Elven jewel, which reacted violently on the presence of the Ring. Therefore, if Isildur couldn't "wield" the One Ring, I would assume there's a very good chance neither Aragorn or Denethor could use it any better.

Did Sauron believe they could? The Ring could still make them live very long, and possibly (due to greed) gather great personal fortune and power. Therefore, a Ringbearer could, in theory, be a great foe. Even better, if they got overconfident, then they'd practically bring the Ring to Sauron. Also, no other thing is more important to Sauron than getting the Ring back.

On Denethor and far-sightedness: There's one thing very, very few - possibly none other than Denethor and perhaps his sons knew. And that thing is that the Palantir of Minas Anor (i.e. Minas Tirith) had not been lost, but Denethor could still use it. And with that little bauble Denethor could gather information others would assume he could not have, which would certainly help on getting a reputation as a mind reader. Of course, it is heavily implied that when Denethor used the Palantir to spy on Mordor, he got caught (Sauron has the stone from Minas Ithil/Morgul), and the Dark Lord showed him only what he wished to show: Endless hosts etc. etc.

On "pure-bloodedness" and genealogues: Pure blood in Middle-earth is not a genetic thing. Rather, spirit is greater than body - Faramir is mentioned to be very close to a model Dúnadan (=Númenorean) whereas Boromir is not. The men-at-arms of Dol Amroth show "Elvish" traits, even when the only Elf (as far as we know) in their ancestry is Mithrellas, who may or may not have been the wife of Imrazôr the Númenorean. Imrazôr's son founded Dol Amroth over thousand years prior to the events of the Lord of the Rings!

Originally Posted by Mithfindel

On "pure-bloodedness" and genealogues: Pure blood in Middle-earth is not a genetic thing.

That's an oversimplification. Elvish or Maia ancestry came down through even many generations, but that evidently wasn't the case for Men. The Southern Dunedain became obsessed with keeping their bloodlines 'pure'.

Rather, spirit is greater than body - Faramir is mentioned to be very close to a model Dúnadan (=Númenorean) whereas Boromir is not.

Denethor had by chance inherited a combination of traits that made him a throwback to olden times when the Dunedain really had been 'High Men'. It was just that Faramir inherited that in full measure whereas Boromir did not; chance, again.

The men-at-arms of Dol Amroth show "Elvish" traits, even when the only Elf (as far as we know) in their ancestry is Mithrellas, who may or may not have been the wife of Imrazôr the Númenorean. Imrazôr's son founded Dol Amroth over thousand years prior to the events of the Lord of the Rings!

Imrahil had an 'Elvish' air about him, but I don't recall anything about the men-at-arms being like that too. They looked splendid, lordly, but then Dol Amroth seems to be rather like that in general; for me, there's something Arthurian about the place.

Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

It looks to me (although I might be wrong) that Aragorn would have to have been mistaken there, according to Tolkien's genealogies. You have to go a long way back to find it but the mother of one of his ancestors was the daughter of King Ondoher of Gondor: Ondoher was descended from Eldacar, whose father Valacar had married a Northwoman called Vidumavi. That would make Aragorn ever-so-slightly 'mingled'.

You are probably right. Tolkien wrote:

With regard to Aragorn's boast, I think he was reckoning his ancestry through the paternal line for this purpose; but in any case I imagine that Númenoreans, before their knowledge dwindled, knew more about heredity than other people. To this of course they refer by the common symbol of blood. They recognized the fact that in spite of inter-marriages, some characteristics would appear in pure form in later generations. Aragorn's own longevity was a case in point. Gandalf I think refers to the curious fact that even in the much less well preserved house of the stewards Denethor had come out as almost purely Númenorean.

Source: Carpenter, Humphrey (editor), '230 From a letter to Rhona Beare 8 June 1961'. The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien.

Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

Imrahil had an 'Elvish' air about him, but I don't recall anything about the men-at-arms being like that too. They looked splendid, lordly, but then Dol Amroth seems to be rather like that in general; for me, there's something Arthurian about the place.

Imrahil had more than an "Elvish air" about him. Legolas recognized Imrahil's Elven ancestry:

At length they came to the Prince Imrahil, and Legolas looked at him and bowed low; for he saw that here indeed was one who had elven-blood in his veins. 'Hail, lord!' he said. 'It is long since the people of Nimrodel left the woodlands of Lórien, and yet still one may see that not all sailed from Amroth's haven west over the water.'

Source: Tolkien, JR.R. 'The Last Debate'. The Return of the King.

Imrahil and his knights were also of Númenorean descent. (The name 'Imrahil' is in the Númenorean tongue of Adûnaic.)

But beyond, in the great fief of Belfalas, dwelt Prince Imrahil in his castle of Dol Amroth by the sea, and he was of high blood, and his folk also, tall men and proud with sea-grey eyes.

Source: Tolkien, JR.R. 'Minas Tirith'. The Return of the King.

Originally Posted by oldbadgerbrock

Imrahil had more than an "Elvish air" about him. Legolas recognized Imrahil's Elven ancestry:

Tolkien equivocates about Imrazor and Mithrellas, though; it's one of those "it is said" things, a legend.

Imrahil and his knights were also of Númenorean descent. (The name 'Imrahil' is in the Númenorean tongue of Adûnaic.)

Yes, of course. I'd always assumed Imrahil's knights looked so splendid and lordly because they'd be Dunedain. Why bring that up, though?

Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

Tolkien equivocates about Imrazor and Mithrellas, though; it's one of those "it is said" things, a legend.

Tolkien does not equivocate so much as he states it was the "tradition" of a noble house:

In the tradition of his house Angelimar was the twentieth in unbroken descent from Galador, first Lord of Dol Amroth (c. Third Age 2004-2019). According to the same tradition Galador was the son of Imrazôr the Númenórean, who dwelt in Belfalas, and the Elven-lady Mithrellas. She was one of the companions of Nimrodel...

Source: Tolkien, J.R.R. 'The History of Galadriel and Celeborn'. Unfinished Tales.

Mithrellas or no Mithrellas, the fact is that Legolas discerns Imrahil's Elven ancestry. That isn't something that Legolas would be mistaken about.

Originally Posted by oldbadgerbrock

Tolkien does not equivocate so much as he states it was the "tradition" of a noble house

If it's a tradition, or a legend, or an 'it is said' then that means you can't take it absolutely for granted. Some near-perfect specimens of humnaity in the books could almost pass for Elves (Morwen Eledhwen, Turin's mother, for one - her eyes were said to be as bright as theirs). So unless Legolas is supposed to be omniscient, he could perhaps be mistaken.

Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

...snip... Some near-perfect specimens of humnaity in the books could almost pass for Elves (Morwen Eledhwen, Turin's mother, for one - her eyes were said to be as bright as theirs)....snip...

There is some truth here...from The Silmarillion:

In the time that followed Túrin grew high in favour with Orodreth, and well-nigh all hearts were turned to him in Nargothrond. For he was young, and only now reached his full manhood; and he was in truth the son of Morwen Eledhwen to look upon: dark-haired and pale-skinned, with grey eyes, and his face more beautiful than any other among mortal Men, in the Elder Days. His speech and bearing were that of the ancient kingdom of Doriath, and even among the Elves he might be taken for one from the great houses of the Noldor; therefore many called him Adanedhel, the Elf-Man.

Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

So unless Legolas is supposed to be omniscient, he could perhaps be mistaken.

Omniscient, no, wise, yes. If Legolas is mistaken, why doesn't Imrahil doesn't correct him?

Originally Posted by oldbadgerbrock

Omniscient, no, wise, yes. If Legolas is mistaken, why doesn't Imrahil doesn't correct him?

Imrahil makes a polite and proper response: 'So it is said' (etc.). Remember, he himself wouldn't know for sure.

I'm going to say: Nothing special would have happened if Denethor got the ring.

Isildur was of Numenor, as pure blooded and as powerful as the race of men could get, heck he cut the ring from Saurons finger and lived, that pretty much says it all.

Isildur had the ring in this possession, what happened? Nothing. He became hypnotized by it, obsessed with it, but in the end it did little or nothing to strengthen him or his kingdom, but rather betrayed him to the orcs and caused his untimely death.

It would have been the same with Denethor.

The ring is entirely evil, and I think it can only be wielded to its true power by evil for evil purposes.

The only reason the hobbits could use it is because they have so little evil in them, but even then we see that over time it would corrupt them just as it did Frodo by the end, and Gollum from the beginning.

Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

Imrahil makes a polite and proper response: 'So it is said' (etc.). Remember, he himself wouldn't know for sure.

'So it is said in the lore of my land', to be more precise. Considering that DNA testing had not yet been invented, of course Imrahil could not be sure of his ancestry.

In the same chapter of UT quoted above, Christopher Tolkien wrote:

In a note written in December 1972 or later, and among the last writings of my father's on the subject of Middle-earth, there is a discussion of the Elvish strain in Men, as to its being observable in the beardlessness of those who were so descended (it was a characteristic of all Elves to be beardless); and it is here noted in connection with the princely house of Dol Amroth that "this line had a special Elvish strain according to its own legends" (with reference to the speeches between Legolas and Imrahil in The Return of the King V 9, sited above).

Could the legends and lore of the lords of Dol Amroth been in error? Could Legolas' perception of Imrahil been wrong? Could Prince Imrahil's lack of a beard be due to an inherited characteristic not related to an Elvish strain? Possibly, but highly unlikely.

As for me, I will trust the lore and legends of the lords of Dol Amroth and the perceptive powers of Legolas Greenleaf. Others may believe what they wish.

Originally Posted by Faithknight

Isildur was of Numenor, as pure blooded and as powerful as the race of men could get, heck he cut the ring from Saurons finger and lived, that pretty much says it all.

Isildur had the ring in this possession, what happened? Nothing. He became hypnotized by it, obsessed with it, but in the end it did little or nothing to strengthen him or his kingdom, but rather betrayed him to the orcs and caused his untimely death.

I always had the feeling that Isildur didn't get a chance to actually wield the Ring before he was slain. If he had reached Annúminas and started building up the northern realm, he would have had occasion to sway people's hearts, and the Ring would have helped him there.

The Ring's tendency to corrupt would work strongly on those who wanted something, wanted to enjoy power over others, and who had the means and opportunity to exercise such power. Sam's dream of being the greatest gardener ever didn't really measure up to the Ring's capabilities.

Originally Posted by ferdinanda

I always had the feeling that Isildur didn't get a chance to actually wield the Ring before he was slain. If he had reached Annúminas and started building up the northern realm, he would have had occasion to sway people's hearts, and the Ring would have helped him there.

The main function of the One Ring, we can assume, is to maintain control over the other Rings of Power - so should've Isildur tried to do that, I am relatively certain that his ring-wearing Elven neighbours wouldn't have been very happy with him! Now we may discuss what other effects or corruptions the One Ring might have on Isildur. However, we do know that it did, indeed, take him into the realm of shadows, as we know that Isildur did wear the Ring in the skirmish at the Gladden Fields in effort to escape from Orcs. (We can assume that Isildur had worn it before, as he apparently knew that wearing the Ring would make him invisible.) We also know that Isildur's curse was quite powerful (the Oathbreakers - though this may also have something to do with the inherent magic of swearing an oath in Middle-earth).

All in all, Isildur might have been a prime candidate for a man to wield the Ring: Though becoming invisible would be a strong indicator that the Ring was yet stronger than Isildur. If Isildur were stronger then we may assume that he indeed allowed the Ring to make him invisible at the Gladden Fields, but we know how that ended (with the Ring slipping from his finger - I do believe it is taken that the Ring is actually somewhat sentient with a part of Sauron's spirit in it). As such, if he were able to command the Ring, then the question remains how the Ring were able to betray him? Thus, my final verdict would be that, in case Isildur - or anyone mortal - decided to use the Ring, they would only be able to wield whatever powers the Ring allowed them to use. In Isildur's case, the Ring wanted to stay as close to Mordor as possible. For Smeagol/Gollum, it needed to be found again. For Bilbo, it needed to get back up from the Goblin-town. (Helps that Bilbo was also travelling to the direction of Dol Guldur! Luckily they did not go that close.) For Frodo, we know that he really didn't try to use the Ring, except at Weathertop where the act singled him out to the Ringwraiths, and then at Mount Doom, where it provided the last-minute warning to Sauron what they were doing. The same for Sam: Should he have given out and tried to 'wield' the Ring in Mordor (to make it a land full of flowers, heh), we may assume that Sauron would've noticed the Hobbits and tried to catch them.

Thus, the remaining question might be if any of the Wise would have been able to wield the Ring - Galadriel certainly seems to believe that she could have become a 'Dark Queen'. Gandalf believed that he would've been trapped by the Ring's power. Of the other Wise we don't know, though at least Saruman actively sought the Ring (and had found the remains of Isildur - though I think that piece comes from the Unfinished Tales, and thus, is somewhat apocryphal).

And as a final note, we know that one of the Great Rings of Power was indeed designed to sway other people's hearts - that is, the elf-ring Narya, which Celebrimbor gave to Gil-Galad and which was ultimately passed to Gandalf.

Originally Posted by Mithfindel

The main function of the One Ring, we can assume, is to maintain control over the other Rings of Power - so should've Isildur tried to do that, I am relatively certain that his ring-wearing Elven neighbours wouldn't have been very happy with him!

<...>

And as a final note, we know that one of the Great Rings of Power was indeed designed to sway other people's hearts - that is, the elf-ring Narya, which Celebrimbor gave to Gil-Galad and which was ultimately passed to Gandalf.

I guess I think of the "power" of ALL the rings as being of a spiritual nature, power over the hearts and minds of others, rather than actual physical might, or a magical create-something-out-of-nothing spell. They served as magnifying glasses, taking the will and the charisma of the wielder and projecting it throughout the field of influence. It seems that they could also function like the palantíri, over a distance, but only towards other Rings: Sauron was able to attempt to probe the minds of those who wore the Three, but they felt his attempts.

So the One served to amplify Sauron's rage and hate, and fear, and spread it all around. Those are powerful emotions to harness... the orcs and trolls responded in vast hordes.

Nenya amplified Galadriel's power of concealment and steadfastness, inspiring the Galadhrim to stand firm in their beautiful land against the shadows in the east.

Vilya amplified Elrond's power of healing, the aura of hope that surrounded the whole valley of Imladris. And perhaps it was a little "magical", if it helped him bring the flood of Bruinen down on the Nazgûl.

And Narya amplified Gandalf's powers of encouragement and inspiration, even in the face of fear or despair, as when he roused Théoden from his decrepitude, or dashed out of the gates of Minas Tirith to face the Witch-king.

Ferdinanda is perhaps closest to the clearest understanding of the nature of the Rings of Power here, I think--in that the effects of the Rings are more spiritual than physical and that they would act as an amplifier (in a sense) rather than as a repository of power in and of themselves.

What you could do with such an artifact would be highly dependent upon your actual nature--men, be they of Numenorean decent or not are not inherently "magical," not in the same sense as Elves or Maia.

About the only mortals who might be able to do something with the Ring would be those of the Line of the Kings, for they are descended not only through Men, but from Elves and Maia, as well. They truely do carry a spark of the divine within them as part of their descent from Melian. If Sauron would fear any Mortal in possession of the Ring, it would be Aragorn--hence his reaction when Aragorn wrests the Palantir from his control. His ability to do so says something about his capabilities--Denethor could not do what he did and Saruman, despite his nature and innate power, also could not... so it is not ONLY power, but strength of will.

Both Galadhriel and Gandalf (and Saruman) could have wielded the Ring, to greater or lesser effect according to their nature... but lacking the willpower to MASTER the Ring, they would, in the end, be mastered by it.. and as Gandalf says, the Ring has only one master--because the Ring and Sauron are essentially one and the same. It's power and wakefulness wax and wane with his, most likely.

Any mortal attempting the wield the One would likely have found the endeavour fruitless. Any of the Powers that attempted to do so, unless they be a Power greater than Sauron (meaning, one of the Valar) would ultimately be corrupted by the nature of the Ring, itself--and none of the Valar would actually have a use for the Ring nor desire it.

The fact that Bombadil is not affected by the Ring asserts his essentially alien nature--that is, he is not "human" in the same sense that a maia, elf, man or dwarf is. The cannot address his desires or tempt him and he has sufficient innate power or his nature itself is such that it cannot physically affect him. He is already of and present in both "worlds" and so he remains visible. I believe that if you put the Ring on and it makes you invisible, that is essentially a sign that you lack the spiritual stature to wield it.

The Lotr Wiki says something along the lines of "The more powerful the being, the greater effect, while lesser creatures like hobbits would merely be turned invisible, more powerful beings (I assume Gandalf, Galadriel, Celeborn, Elrond, etc.) would become nearly invincible"

Not the exact words but same message i got from the Wiki