I made a thread in the creep pvmp section about evenness of freeps and creeps.
This was in my opinion a great response:
Originally Posted by MTminas
BA's are nothing near OP, maybe OP if they fought other creeps, but certainly not against any freep.
Revenge got nerfed, and i kinda agree on it, 4K hit meant a instant kill for any freep with lower then 25% health, wich means if a BA was present the freeps health would be counting -25%.
BA's are claimed to be OP because the rest of the creeps are Underpowered, and BA's are at the moment one of the only classes that poses much of a threat to freeps, especially when coordinating.
Just giving some examples here of what i mean by unbalanced PVMP:
Reavers are Melee DPS the counterpart of champions.
Champions that go on fervour can single target DPS up to 8K however they make an easy target for many creeps, however a glory champ has:
- 4-5K bubble every 1M(with legacies)
- Sprint, ignoring all slows done to said champ
- Dire need wich transfers 50% of their power, multiplies it by 3 and adds it to their morale
- An Anti-daze/stun skill
- invincible, wich if done correctly will reduce the incomming non-tactical damage by 40%
Compare that to what a reaver has, or how about a burg vs a warg?
Burgs have:
- A counter-stun skill wich gives them a heal and a touch and go
- A normal touch and go skill
- A flop
- 7-9K devastating from stealth even on a high armoured targets
- 2 dissapear skills
- Huge ammount of debuffs
- Dazes without breaking stealth
- A skill that makes them immume to the fall effects
- A skill that makes their next skill 100% chance of critting.
Compare this to a warg, a warg wich max crit for me from stealth has been 1.5K devastating on a light armoured freep.
Now compare BA's and hunters:
- Hunters have heartseeker, wich can do 8-12K devastating depending on said hunter and if he/she ussed a focus pot
- Hunters can do swift bow(or split arrow don'r recall wich one) wich can do up to 2K per arrow
- Hunters have stealth
- Hunters can track
- Hunters have mercifull blow
BA's get a VT wich does for me a Max of 3.5K on freeps depending on the armour(3K dev on guard) our screaming shafts wich is our triple arrow attack does around 330 per arrow, we have revenge wich only works if the target is under 25% morale, wich is similar to mercifull blow wich is under 50%
I see a certain balance here, BA's can have around 13K morale, yet their damage is way lower then a hunter, yet their called OP
I find it silly that the quoted is comparing BAs to super op classes like burgs and champs. The comparisons between hunters and BAs is just lol as well. I solo'd a hunter with a r1 ba. Moving Target adds a +75% evade effect against ranged attacks. Hell, I almost beat broodlings hunter 1v1 with moving target and skirmisher stance up. IMO, glory champs are super op. Fervor traited champs give up survivability for damage. I'm not saying fervor champs are not op, I for one love facerolling on my champ Vorenroy in the moors when I feel sad. From both a creep and freep perspective, BAs are the easiest class I've played in 2 years due to P2W.
P2W BAs > hunters, guards, rks, and all creep classes except select few wargs and wls
BAs are op
Champs, burgs, and minis are super op.
Oh yes and to the argument about HS, No You Don't and LOS Ftw.
Considering the current state of the game, Id say this thread should be care/dont care :-)
Fixed that for you.
"West, North, and South the children of Men spread and wandered, and their joy was the joy of the morning before the dew is dry, when every leaf is green." - The Silmarillion Minstrel | Rune-keeper | Champion | Captain | Hunter | Warden
Nah, you just stayed in lotro too long, there was no way you would enjoy anything they did without a break of sort,. It is still fun for me, but i can see why people left. Youll all be back though. I dont want all of you back, but many of you will be.
Creeps and their freep "counterparts" are not equal nor were they ever meant to be. Comparing them 1:1 is as smart as trying to solo anything as a freaver.
But for the sake of clarity on burgs: - A counter-stun skill wich gives them a heal and a touch and go Which any creep worth their dp knows is easily avoidable by not stunning burgs or making them blow it with stun and run tactics
- A normal touch and go skill True, having useful skills is nice
- A flop Hobbits burgs only - 7-9K devastating from stealth even on a high armoured targets Only heavily QK traited and agility stacked burgs can hit nearly this high and only in ideal conditions. In turn, this will make them extra squishy.
- 2 dissapear skills One with a 30m cd skill-reset skill
- Huge ammount of debuffs Only one per target and each must be traited for its full effect
- Dazes without breaking stealth One ~30s daze 1m cd, pot/brandable
- A skill that makes them immume to the fall effects True again
- A skill that makes their next skill 100% chance of critting That's also true
They conveniently forgot that wargs:
- Can track hobbit burgs through stealth while no burgs can track any creeps without spending tp
- On average have ~50% more morale than the average burg
- Can map around the moors, while burgs can walk it or give up stealth to mount up
- Have a 200% sprint that is 100% effective at getting away from 99% of our skills in 0.1 seconds
- Outnumber burgs at least 3 to 1 on Firefoot because leveling and gearing a decent burg takes time and effort
- Probably other things I don't realize since I don't play creepside
I don't necessarily disagree with the "points" the OP made, but they clearly neglected to cover all their bases while QQing about the BA nerf. Exaggerating is no way to make an argument.
Nah, you just stayed in lotro too long, there was no way you would enjoy anything they did without a break of sort,. It is still fun for me, but i can see why people left. Youll all be back though. I dont want all of you back, but many of you will be.
;-)
thats wishful thinking SWTOR's pvp is awesome and D3 will be here soon and add in that Turbine does its best to destroy the game with the worst expansion the game has seen people wont be back maybe next December when we get a new expansion a few will be but with new games and nothing but fail flying out of lotro look forward to froob after froob
Nah, you just stayed in lotro too long, there was no way you would enjoy anything they did without a break of sort,. It is still fun for me, but i can see why people left. Youll all be back though. I dont want all of you back, but many of you will be.
;-)
I don't want to make this into a LotRO vs. SW:TOR debate, so I'll stop after this. It wasn't my intention to hijack the thread.
That being said, SW:TOR does everything better than LotRO with the exception of the UI, which will be patched soon anyway. This coming from a PvE-nut who cares about story and gameplay more than anything and from someone who heavily enjoyed LotRO's story up until recently.
Meh. I left on my terms, as did everyone else. I would have liked to stay longer, but I see the writing on the wall and am acting on it. I know I won't be back, but if it makes you feel better to keep believing otherwise, go for it.
It'll be good for Firefoot to have some good PvE and PvP competition between kins again.
"West, North, and South the children of Men spread and wandered, and their joy was the joy of the morning before the dew is dry, when every leaf is green." - The Silmarillion Minstrel | Rune-keeper | Champion | Captain | Hunter | Warden
I don't want to make this into a LotRO vs. SW:TOR debate, so I'll stop after this. It wasn't my intention to hijack the thread.
That being said, SW:TOR does everything better than LotRO with the exception of the UI, which will be patched soon anyway. This coming from a PvE-nut who cares about story and gameplay more than anything and from someone who heavily enjoyed LotRO's story up until recently.
Meh. I left on my terms, as did everyone else. I would have liked to stay longer, but I see the writing on the wall and am acting on it. I know I won't be back, but if it makes you feel better to keep believing otherwise, go for it.
It'll be good for Firefoot to have some good PvE and PvP competition between kins again.
trust me it isnt you im hoping comes back
I hope you have fun in SW, everything you said is true, its going to be a great game. I am too invested here, but who knows, I may give it a try and actually make an attempt at being a casual gamer some where, then ill find you guys, make a mockery of w/e part of the game you hold dear and allow the process to continue teehee.
Server has a nicer smell without some of you guys :-)
In all seriousness, I hope you and your buddies have fun in SW, its why we all play these games anyway. Except Gomlie, who had his alt kin usurped and given to me lol. Thx gomlie for the extra house and space.
Both sides have their strengths & weaknesses, but to me it was clear that the Devs were relying on Creeps to consistently have greater numbers since the addition of (restricted) f2p access and had this mind when attempting to "balance".
I don't agree Revenge needed a crit dmg nerf. I do agree it needed a crit chance nerf.
My main Freep has been a hunter (until the last few months or so) since May 2007 and IMO they are in the best stead they have ever been... in the moors at least anyway. Pen shot, BA on the run, no CD, awesome DPS, the mez, needful haste trait so they can't be interrupted (I have no idea why you wouldn't have this equipped in the moors but anyway).
Since the buffs Wargs are pretty awesome, although it's obvious the mitigation "accident" needs to be fixed.
Some aspects of the Reaver are a joke. Devastating strike, lol, I'd be more afraid of a Guard, Capt and maybe even Warden using their top DPS skills than a Reaver using Dev strike. Nerfed attack speed/dps combinations. Watch out for... Severing Strike!
I think most would agree that if anything the "big 3" of the Freeps are Minstrels, Champs & Burgs.
Minstrels - Just lol. Forget Champs, the current God Mode class of the Moors IMO. Too much healing in WS accompanied by constant 2k, 3k crits. Or if that doesn't float your boat...
Vorrtex scored a devastating hit with Coda of Fury on Puppyfiler for 5,958 Light damage to Morale.
Vorrtex scored a devastating hit with Coda of Fury on Puppyfiler for 7,726 Light damage to Morale.
Wahoo!
Champions - Next down from minstrels, with correct traits & legacies can have a 30s bubble, ~3.7k morale?, every 5 minutes, and a 15s bubble, up to ~ 3.7k morale (5 fervour), with less than a minute CD.
Still, they are more often beatable. On several creep classes, possibly all. Of course it always depends on the player's individual abilities. At higher ranks, Wargs have 25% power cost debuff, 25% skill inductions/attack duration debuff, savage fangs and Shadow Howler. Half-kite and bleeds with Pack Hunters FTW. Spiders, CC, power drain, pet. If they burn sprint though it's going to be rough, except that goes for any Creep class really. BA's... usual melee tactics really. Reavers vs Champs is a fun fight. Well, it was, before they screwed up mits and DPS combinations. Have won several, lost several on my Reaver.
Burgs - insane DPS, CC and "ogawd" skills to go with it. Been playing a newb warg on another server and it dies in one stun, from one Burg. Lol
Same as Champs though, they are beatable. It depends on what CDs they're willing to burn & also who initiates the fight. I won't even bother fighting one on the Warg if they start the fight. Have had a pretty good success rate with ones I have fought. BA... yeah. Reaver is just 50/50 though I'm admittedly not a fantastic Reaver. Good Spiders are the Burg's Bane.
I also find that in small group situations, say, 3v3 - 6v6 that skilled Freeps and High ranked skilled Creeps are pretty even. It's when it starts to get out to 12v12 and 24v24 situations that Creeps cannot match all the Freeps survival abilities.
I made a thread in the creep pvmp section about evenness of freeps and creeps.
This was in my opinion a great response:
Do you agree?
Just an observation, but over the past year ive noticed a massive spike of QQ related topics on the forums.
Im going to be frank, there are very few people that ive come across on firefoot that i would say go well beyond the bounds of what the average joe gamer is capable of (in a pvp situation) QQ tends to come freely to those who are making the assumption that they are the best at what they do. (therefore, if im losing consistantly it must be due to a severe inbalance in pvp.)
A perfect example is enrage. Im not making a blanket statement but i remember nasty making a comment about enrage and how its pro againt ba's suddenly 80% of the burgs on firefoot started using it. This was a couple of months after roi was released lol.
Balanced is the class I just beat
OP is the class that just beat me.
This it the typical mindset of most PvPers.
Could freeps use a nerf in general? Yeap. Is that nerf anywhere near what the vast majority of creeps think it should be? No way. I can tell you from experience the level of skill that 90% of creeps have in 1v1s is sooooooo far below what the remaining 10% have it's literally frightning. I can also say that to date I have never seen a QQ post from any FF creep in the 10%, but the same can't be said for players in the 90% bracket.
Fix creep mitigations, scale creep DPS with the introduction of 1st age weapons and things may not be "balanced" but they'd be pretty darn close.
Last edited by doug01; Jan 02 2012 at 02:16 AM.
"...FF is still the best server period, its like the Texas of Lotro"-Bace
Balanced is the class I just beat
OP is the class that just beat me.
This it the typical mindset of most PvPers.
Could freeps use a nerf in general? Yeap. Is that nerf anywhere near what the vast majority of creeps think it should be? No way. I can tell you from experience the level of skill that 90% of creeps have in 1v1s is sooooooo far below what the remaining 10% have it's literally frightning. I can also say that to date I have never seen a QQ post from any FF creep in the 10%, but the same can't be said for players in the 90% bracket.
Fix creep mitigations, scale creep DPS with the introduction of 1st age weapons and things may not be "balanced" but they'd be pretty darn close.
I hope you have fun in SW, everything you said is true, its going to be a great game. I am too invested here, but who knows, I may give it a try and actually make an attempt at being a casual gamer some where, then ill find you guys, make a mockery of w/e part of the game you hold dear and allow the process to continue teehee.
Server has a nicer smell without some of you guys :-)
In all seriousness, I hope you and your buddies have fun in SW, its why we all play these games anyway. Except Gomlie, who had his alt kin usurped and given to me lol. Thx gomlie for the extra house and space.
To be honest, we all miss the ettenmoors way back in SoA... you can't lie or cover it up. Those were the good days and now it is composed of either 15 creeps vs 5 freeps outside one of the rez circles, or the other way around. although some times some good fights do break out. The point is people just need to adapt and continue playing instead of living in the past. Things change and that is a scientifically proven fact.
The number one complaint from most Moors players is that one class is stronger than the other and all the classes should be revamped so everyone is "equal."
PvMP will never be balanced. It's impossible. You're trying to balance PvE characters with PvP characters.
Every concept, every belief, every understanding that we have is simply an illusion casted upon ourselves by those around us.
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Originally Posted by MTminas
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