I wonder why they went with 23,000? Seems like a strange number when the other ones are kinda like even increments of 1550, 2500 & 5,000.
23,000 looks a little like it's close to double of 136 *x and as if you get the points for very close to $0.50 each. It isn't of course, it's a pretty normal rebate after the next larger package.
Wow. It took me over a year to go through maybe 10,000TP. 23,000TP should last me a couple, lol. Thank you OP. I never would've known about this. ORDER SENT!
My name is Purebloodnakh, Chieftain of Saruman's Armies of the North, General of the Warg Legions, loyal servant to the true Lord, Sauron. And I will have my vengeance, in this life or the next.
You know, I don't mind the obscene number of points they are selling. If people want to buy them, fine by me.
Here's what I do mind: Turbine treating us like we are stupid. Look. I am good at math. So when you say "Double bonus points!", you know damn well some marketing lunkhead came up with this system by observing that the average person's eyes stop at the word "double", and ignoring the word "bonus". Why is it so hard to say "16% more points!" (on 500), or "40% more points!!!" (on 3700)? Is it because you guys like being misleading, and that "Double (aka 100% more)" looks better than "16% more"?
Just what in the heck is a "bonus" point anyhow? As far as I can tell, you've never been able to buy a point bundle without these so-called "bonus" points, so it's not like they're truly a bonus if they're always there!
Reminds me of when I worked in retail. We used to sell Hockey Jerseys for $150, but they had a perpetual 25% off sale for 52 weeks out of the year. Every day people would come in, see "25% off", and remark what a great deal that was because they had to buy it before it went off sale. That's the joke! They never went off sale! That 25% off wasn't a "bonus", it just reflected the true cost of the item!
BE HONEST. Tell us that the bundles have 600 points, not 500 + 100 BONUS POINTS OMG! Tell us that your special deal is +16% points, not "double".
This attempt at deception leaves a bad taste in my mouth, and honestly makes me never want to purchase points. I cannot stand deception.
Just what in the heck is a "bonus" point anyhow? As far as I can tell, you've never been able to buy a point bundle without these so-called "bonus" points, so it's not like they're truly a bonus if they're always there!
If you buy points cards, or if you buy points through Digital River, you only get the stated amount of points, no extra. It's only when you buy them through the LOTRO store that you get extra, bonus, points.
You know, I don't mind the obscene number of points they are selling. If people want to buy them, fine by me.
Here's what I do mind: Turbine treating us like we are stupid. Look. I am good at math. So when you say "Double bonus points!", you know damn well some marketing lunkhead came up with this system by observing that the average person's eyes stop at the word "double", and ignoring the word "bonus". Why is it so hard to say "16% more points!" (on 500), or "40% more points!!!" (on 3700)? Is it because you guys like being misleading, and that "Double (aka 100% more)" looks better than "16% more"?
Just what in the heck is a "bonus" point anyhow? As far as I can tell, you've never been able to buy a point bundle without these so-called "bonus" points, so it's not like they're truly a bonus if they're always there!
Reminds me of when I worked in retail. We used to sell Hockey Jerseys for $150, but they had a perpetual 25% off sale for 52 weeks out of the year. Every day people would come in, see "25% off", and remark what a great deal that was because they had to buy it before it went off sale. That's the joke! They never went off sale! That 25% off wasn't a "bonus", it just reflected the true cost of the item!
BE HONEST. Tell us that the bundles have 600 points, not 500 + 100 BONUS POINTS OMG! Tell us that your special deal is +16% points, not "double".
This attempt at deception leaves a bad taste in my mouth, and honestly makes me never want to purchase points. I cannot stand deception.
Ya they expect people to be dumb. I love the Half off onthe Meat in the supermarket market sale. yet they dont tell you They rase the price by 50% then say it half off.
This attempt at deception leaves a bad taste in my mouth, and honestly makes me never want to purchase points. I cannot stand deception.
It is not deception, it is marketing. You know that, you worked in a store. So don't get all crazy about this.
Deception would be like "double bonus points" and then not giving you that. But they are not cheating you, they are saying you will get double BONUS points. It is my problem if I don't read the word BONUS, because it is there.
But yeah, in general, people don't like to read. Or to think.
Wow. It took me over a year to go through maybe 10,000TP. 23,000TP should last me a couple, lol. Thank you OP. I never would've known about this. ORDER SENT!
Wish I had the money to buy me this amount of points (or any amount xD). That would save me a lot of trouble.
Wish I had the money to buy me this amount of points (or any amount xD). That would save me a lot of trouble.
Anyway, enjoy!
It would make no sense for me to buy that package, any package really, because I would have no idea what to spend it on. Still sitting on 6k vip tp. Considering the new goat. Maybe.
If you buy points cards, or if you buy points through Digital River, you only get the stated amount of points, no extra. It's only when you buy them through the LOTRO store that you get extra, bonus, points.
Actually that's not precise, the "750" retail card says right there in the corner, 600 + 150 free points.
Two words drive sales most, "new" and "free". Ironic that a word which means "pay nothing", encourages greater spending.
"Sometimes survival comes down to not being hit. Actually, most times." -the chicken skill, Bob and Weave
I can see where this is a great opportunity for someone who just got into the game...
23,000 points will get you MoM, SoM, and RoI questpacks, plus all the add-ons like skirm soldier rank and Warden/RK that used to come with the box sets, and leave you with lots of points left over for guild access, buy a couple skirms, round your Eriador QPs out (when they're on sale, naturally), etc.
140 bucks for, essentially, 4 years of additional content isnt that bad a price. A lot of people just shelled out almost $140 for SWTOR collectors edition (99) plus 2 months of access (30), and thats a game that just launched and wont have the content and still will be shaking out bugs and balance issues for a while, as all new MMOs must
Originally Posted by Celt_Ainvar
Ya they expect people to be dumb. I love the Half off onthe Meat in the supermarket market sale. yet they dont tell you They rase the price by 50% then say it half off.
It is not deception, it is marketing. You know that, you worked in a store. So don't get all crazy about this.
Deception would be like "double bonus points" and then not giving you that. But they are not cheating you, they are saying you will get double BONUS points. It is my problem if I don't read the word BONUS, because it is there.
But yeah, in general, people don't like to read. Or to think.
Eh no, it's deception. There is literally no reason for the "bonus" points to exist except to intentionally obfuscate how much things actually cost. "Marketing" is just a fancy term people use to mean "deception" when they don't want to feel like they're intentionally trying to confuse people into giving them more money. Sorry, I don't buy it.
de·ceive \di-ˈsēv\
intransitive verb
: to practice deceit; to give a false impression
NB: This is a somewhat lengthy post. Please be aware of this if you generally dislike long posts. Thanks.
* * * * * * * *
Summary of Contents:
1. Observations on (at least one) difference between UK/EU and US consumer protection legislation.
2. Discussion/debate regarding such a large investment when considering the future longevity and content value of LotRO.
3. Reasons and supporting examples as to why I, personally, am less then confident in the game's (high-quality) future.
* * * * * * * *
Interesting.
Not the huge Turbine Points Bundle offer, which doesn't appeal to me: I have three Lifetime accounts anyway, which, with their 500 TP/month allowances, cover most of my TP needs, so I only buy TP for necessary and expensive non-gameplay-related purchases such as high-level Vault Storage (and before people start calling me a "freeloader": we Lifetimers paid a *LARGE* sum of money for our Accounts (roughly twice what this TP Bundle costs), and we were promised, when F2P launched, that we would never again *need* to pay for anything we had already paid 18 months'-worth of subscription charges in order to continue to access. The mere fact that, even with 500 bonus TP/month, items like Store-only Relic Removal Scrolls mean that I now *DO* need to buy extra TP for expensive purchases like top-tier Vault upgrades is bad enough).
No, what is firstly interesting in this thread is at least one difference I can spot between legal sales practices in the UK vs the US - and it goes a long way towards explaining why the UK/EU (since UK and EU law is by and large very similar) player-base seems to find Turbine's marketing practices less acceptable, on average, than the US player-base.
There is another interesting point raised in this thread - i.e. whether or not the game itself is robust enough, now, to warrant such a large investment in its future - and I will discuss that too. But I'll discuss the difference between UK/EU and US sales legislation first.
For example:
Originally Posted by Mithrandir3
Reminds me of when I worked in retail. We used to sell Hockey Jerseys for $150, but they had a perpetual 25% off sale for 52 weeks out of the year. Every day people would come in, see "25% off", and remark what a great deal that was because they had to buy it before it went off sale. That's the joke! They never went off sale! That 25% off wasn't a "bonus", it just reflected the true cost of the item!
This is illegal in the UK. For any item to be marked as a "Sale" item, with any kind of discount, the shop in question needs to be able to show that it has, during the past 12 months, had the relevant item on sale at the *original* (i.e. non-discounted) price for at least one period of a *minimum* of 28 consecutive days.
Likewise:
Originally Posted by Celt_Ainvar
Ya they expect people to be dumb. I love the Half off onthe Meat in the supermarket market sale. yet they dont tell you They rase the price by 50% then say it half off.
Although - as another poster has pointed out - the maths here is inaccurate (the price would need to be raised by 100% in order to then state that the "sale" price represented "50% off"), this would also be simply illegal if, again, the item was not left on sale at the new, raised price for at least 28 consecutive days before having its price cut and being advertised as "50% off". Even if this "raise the price in order to drop the price" tactic is used - and it does occur sometimes here in the UK, particularly when it comes to large supermarkets artificially raising the price of popular food items by a large percentage, leaving them on sale for a couple of months at the high new price, then lowering the price again and calling it a bargain "sale" price - it still falls into a legal "grey area".
Coincidentally, the BBC recently conducted an investigative report into this practice, and challenged our "big four" supermarket chains about their habit of doing this, since, although not downright illegal, it is certainly more than borderline deceptive; interestingly, the supermarkets obviously considered themselves to be on "shaky" legal grounds with this practice, since their response was, in all cases, to come up with a range of feeble excuses and then - lo and behold - either to drop the products right the way back to their original price (often lower than the so-called "sale" price), or to remove the products from sale altogether.
"Caveat emptor" ("let the buyer beware") is certainly a good principle to apply to any purchase of any kind, but at least the UK/EU does have pretty strong legislation in place when it comes to protecting consumers from "sharp practices" by retailers - and, when challenged, companies who are breaking the law do back down. In a few particularly bad cases where large companies were shown to be ripping off their customers, usually taken up by various "consumer watchdog" organisations, huge "exemplary" fines have been handed out to them by the Courts to discourage similar dubious trading practices; a result which I have always found reassuring.
* * * * * * *
As far as the 23,000 TP Bundle goes: I do spend a fair amount of TP, as I say, on what I consider to be genuine "convenience"-type, non-gameplay-related (and typically expensive) TP purchases, above and beyond what my 500 TP/month allowance covers (I have many active alts and they all occasionally need costly per-Character items like Vault storage, Milestone Skills (the game world is much larger, in geography/travelling terms, than it was back in SoA!), and so on - the TP allowance is per Account, not per Character!).
This TP Bundle does, in terms of TP per £ spent, represent a good deal. But I am truly more than sad to say that I do not have enough faith in the game still being around for long enough to make spending some £90 a good idea. The more routine "double Bonus Points" offers cover my needs, and are all I will countenance buying: even then, I think carefully, and only buy when I *know* I have a series of expensive purchases on the near horizon.
Has everyone forgotten, so soon, that WB/Turbine - only some weeks ago, or maybe a couple of months now - made public a huge recruitment drive, listing just about every senior position required in order to build a new MMO? None of the people recruited as a result appears to be working here, and unless they've all been deployed in Turbine's other existing games, methinks they are working on a new game entirely. Certainly LotRO's showing no signs of the kind of *massively* increased levels of development and input you'd expect from effectively doubling its senior staff complement in all fields.
And has everyone also forgotten - or were maybe never even aware - that WB's publicly stated reason for acquiring Turbine was *NOT* - pretty surprisingly, in my view, the fact that Turbine owns the IP for the gaming world's two most iconic "fantasy" works, i.e. LOTR (and The Hobbit) and Dungeons&Dragons - but rather the fact that they wanted to acquire Turbine's proprietary Micro-Transactions Store software and, very interestingly, the services of certain valuable/expert, obviously un-named, Turbine employees who were, presumably, still contractually bound to Turbine...? I wonder what they want(ed) those people to do, precisely?
And finally: has nobody but a vocal few noticed that - instead of working (perhaps using some of those newly hired staff, hm?) to fix bugs within RoI (and Update 5) which were reported during Beta but which still exist now - Turbine is instead not only introducing unfinished and unpopular tools such as the Instance Finder, as well as quite bizarre new concepts such as the Steel Bound LootBoxes (I mean, come on - in their current form, did Turbine really expect us to welcome them with open arms...?), but is also apparently blithely ignoring all the negative feedback being generated by such ideas?
This - and these are only a few examples of recent moves by Turbine which don't suit LotRO very well (Festival Consumable Deeds requiring - essentially - PvP interaction in non-PvP areas, anyone?) - is all strange behaviour for a company trying to keep a game it values working well, and striving to retain a loyal, *long-term* player-base, so is it maybe possible that LotRO is, indeed, now being used as a (dispensable?) test-bed for ideas for whatever game all those high-level staff were recruited in order to develop? Turbine never releases player numbers, but I can tell anyone who cares that Laurelin, at least, where I spend several hours most days and with which I am *very* familiar, has - despite gaining some US players, meaning that UK night-times are busier - evidently lost players overall, since a typical players-online-by-Region check made at busy times now returns around half to two-thirds of the numbers as it did before F2P. Maybe Laurelin is unique, and the other Servers are now crowded out, but somehow I doubt it.
I doubt whether LotRO will suddenly be shut down: the mere fact that Turbine Points are being offered for sale in such huge quantities, for what is a significant amount of money even for an average working person (let alone a cash-strapped student or unemployed person), indicates that *some* playes are still investing - at a high level, too - in the game: and after all, why would a company kill a "goose that lays golden eggs", even if the "goose" is looking increasingly tatty to those who have been familiar with it for a long time?
What bothers me is the *FORM* the future game will take. Will it offer nothing more than poorly designed, hurriedly produced and generally "thin" content (the loss of Reputation Barter NPCs now - what else will go?) built around, and designed to support, the Store, or will it reverse its apparent move towards this model and revert to being the uniquely beautiful, lovingly built and content-rich game it once was? I think I have seen enough, recently, to know the answer, but like everyone else, I will have to wait and see. As a Lifetimer, I can do this at little cost: if one only thinks of financial cost, of course. The sense of emotional loss is actually quite significant, since a game I once loved, and looked forward to playing each night, has now become rather a sad and disappointing experience: a shadow of its former self. And - if these Forums are any guide - I'm far from the only "old-time" player feeling this way.
And what is Turbine doing to reverse this trend? Answers on a postcard to the above address, please, since it's a mystery to me.
Best,
Demelza of Lórien
Friend of the Wild and Lady of Streams
Last edited by Demelza; Dec 25 2011 at 02:47 PM.
Reason: Clarified final paragraph.
Can't resist pulling this out, since it's well worth a comment:
Originally Posted by droid
140 bucks for, essentially, 4 years of additional content isnt that bad a price.
Indeed. In fact, at the subscription rate at the time when Lifetimers paid for their Lifetime Accounts, it's actually a much better deal: our investment bought us only some 18 months'-worth of content - at a time when the game was newer, less well-established (and so more likely to fail), *not* additionally supported by F2P players contributing extra income via Micro-Transactions, and thus a far less reliable future investment, overall.
In short: to any player who joined the game after the Lifetime Subscription offer was withdrawn, but who would like to have something pretty much equivalent to it (and I've heard many a player make regretful statements on these Forums along the lines that they wish they'd taken up Lifetime Subscriptions when they had the chance) - well, this looks like a pretty similar deal!
As droid says: around four years of content for far less than a Lifetime Subscription used to cost. Why not go for it...?!*
Best,
Demelza of Lórien
Friend of the Wild and Lady of Streams
(* If, of course, you believe that there will still be a game to play - in a decent, content-rich form - four years from now... )
Yes, I fear. Release an expansion and then kill AC2 (cash in hand, of course). Put the Lonelands on sale one *week* before it becomes free content.
There's been more and more of that sort of thing this past year, especially since the announcement of Isengard (which would've cost 6200 points total at the start - Sapience didn't include the cost of the skirmish soldier upgrade in his original 5995 point breakdown).
Get ready for Isengard with a double points bonus read the advert, only to find that it wouldn't be sold in store in full until - just now. The one-day cash-only 50% off RoI sale was in the very same advert that advertised yet another double points bonus. The way it was written and laid out would have made it very easy to think that the points version of the quest pack was going on sale.
So many, many things like that. I do think the game has a planned shutdown, and I suspect our only warning will be a huge sale or sales just before it happens, but I'm pretty cynical.
140 bucks for, essentially, 4 years of additional content isnt that bad a price. A lot of people just shelled out almost $140 for SWTOR collectors edition (99) plus 2 months of access (30), and thats a game that just launched and wont have the content and still will be shaking out bugs and balance issues for a while, as all new MMOs must
Well, depends on what you compare it to.
Nowadays, keeping a game live (servercosts) is so cheap it is a neglectable amount of money. Blizzard/Activision label WoW's expenses for serverupkeep under the 'miscellanious' label which includes max 5% of their expenses. (cba to find sources now, could try if someone asks for it)
This means that the price you pay for a subscription is almost exclusively used for content. I payed 45EUR for the original SoA, 30EUR for MoM and SoM. Roughly a 100EUR for boxed content, compared to roughly 120ish EUR for sub, aka 'free book update content'. Compare the amount of content you get from the boxes to the amount of content you get for """free""", and you can see that its not really that good of a deal. Much worse if you did not take lifetime, but payed 12EUR a month.
Frenya Victoria
Burglar of [EU] Evernight from Dutch till Dawn
Nowadays, keeping a game live (servercosts) is so cheap it is a neglectable amount of money. Blizzard/Activision label WoW's expenses for serverupkeep under the 'miscellanious' label which includes max 5% of their expenses. (cba to find sources now, could try if someone asks for it)
This means that the price you pay for a subscription is almost exclusively used for content. I payed 45EUR for the original SoA, 30EUR for MoM and SoM. Roughly a 100EUR for boxed content, compared to roughly 120ish EUR for sub, aka 'free book update content'. Compare the amount of content you get from the boxes to the amount of content you get for """free""", and you can see that its not really that good of a deal. Much worse if you did not take lifetime, but payed 12EUR a month.
well technically you also pay any other member of staff that is employed by turbine .. even those that don't have anything to do with content... oh and marketing
those would be the biggest expenses
There's been more and more of that sort of thing this past year, especially since the announcement of Isengard (which would've cost 6200 points total at the start - Sapience didn't include the cost of the skirmish soldier upgrade in his original 5995 point breakdown).
I noticed the same thing too. It's pretty bad that people can't even take the word of the gms/devs since most of it seems to be untrue whether they know it or not.
^^ I hope that gives people an indication of where Lotro is heading. Turbine/WB employees who work on lotro truely don't play the game. They might run around as an auto-leveled 10 or 50 or 75 toon to impress the ignorant players. I highly doubt any of them have actually been through 1/10 of the content on a real toon.
They will say anything (even if untrue and they know it) to get your money.
Last edited by timmyloo22546; Dec 24 2011 at 06:14 PM.
Folks, look at the way Turbine has been treating Turbine Points.
Because the lifers are getting endless amount of TPs, and there are ways to farm TPs in the game, Turbine has increasingly made the points worth less and less. Don't believe me? Look at the price tag of ROI. Compare it to MoM or Mirkwood. 1200 points for a buggy raid, 6000 points total for this so called 'expansion'. The only way Turbine can keep ahead of the lifers and the TP farming is for them to continue to inflate the points. 23000 may LOOK like a lot, but for that amount of money you are actually getting very little.
Turbine, if you want people to actually WANT to buy these point bundles, the next time you decide to slap together the ridiculous prices on these expansions and 'special offers' you may want to remember this.
*
This.
The points are a scam, they're trying to make them less and less viable.
Just compare the price of ROI in points to the price in money. Just think that you COULD NOT buy the whole ROI at lunch with points (which lead to a lot of confusion and people getting less than they thought).
Just think at how overpriced are the things in the store when you do some math.
Just think that they're removing important parts of the game to sell them in store (relic removal, for example), and you can't buy only novelty items but also stuff that gives you an advantage in game.
*
This.
The points are a scam, they're trying to make them less and less viable.
Just compare the price of ROI in points to the price in money. Just think that you COULD NOT buy the whole ROI at lunch with points (which lead to a lot of confusion and people getting less than they thought).
Just think at how overpriced are the things in the store when you do some math.
Just think that they're removing important parts of the game to sell them in store (relic removal, for example), and you can't buy only novelty items but also stuff that gives you an advantage in game.
Don't buy points, you'll regret them.
Sorry but i dont think there a scam. So funny how some here always says turbine is running scams. I got gift cards for xmas & used them all for tp for both of my accounts & dont regret it at all. I am a very happy camper this holiday season.
*
This.
The points are a scam, they're trying to make them less and less viable.
Just compare the price of ROI in points to the price in money. Just think that you COULD NOT buy the whole ROI at lunch with points (which lead to a lot of confusion and people getting less than they thought).
Just think at how overpriced are the things in the store when you do some math.
Just think that they're removing important parts of the game to sell them in store (relic removal, for example), and you can't buy only novelty items but also stuff that gives you an advantage in game.
Don't buy points, you'll regret them.
i just checked on my f2p account
the whole expansion (everything included) costs 5000 tp not 6000 as incorrectly suggested by ladydena
also both mirkwood and moria were over a year old when f2p was released... RoI is just a few months old.. which makes the whole comparison completely erratic
yes content gets cheaper after a while.. just look at enedwaith.. it used to cost 900tp at launch now it costs 700.. well if that isn't a reduction of 22% .. .. with a reduction of 22% RoI would cost ~3900 tp.. and mirkwood/moria are much older than enedwaith..
not to mention moria still costs 2500 tp to this day.. however it was possible to get a key for the whole game (moria included) for 10$ back when the box was still available way before the release of f2p .. PLUS a month of free game time!
now go and check how much RoI costs when buying the "box"
i can see absolutely no deterioration of tp there.. if anything it has gotten better
and naturally 1 tp isn't worth as much as 1 cent.. you can buy TP packages getting 1.6 tp for 1 cent for pity's sake
the monthly TP also contribute to that as mentioned
Last edited by flyingcircus; Dec 25 2011 at 09:42 AM.
the whole expansion (everything included) costs 5000 tp not 6000 as incorrectly suggested by ladydena
also both mirkwood and moria were over a year old when f2p was released... RoI is just a few months old.. which makes the whole comparison completely erratic
The comparison was for what RoI was selling for at launch and what the other expansions were selling for (and Isengard was worth 6900 TP, not 5000, so 6000 was more appropriate). Both Mirkwood and Moria were between £10 - £20 (prices I bought them for). When it comes to RoI, even the cheapest pre-order was £25 and in the store it was around £40+, providing you had no TP to begin with which was the situation I found myself in.
The comparison was for what RoI was selling for at launch and what the other expansions were selling for. Both Mirkwood and Moria were between £10 - £20 (prices I bought them for). When it comes to RoI, even the cheapest pre-order was £25 and in the store it was around £40, providing you had no TP to begin with which was the situation I found myself in.
while i agree that it was a major screwup ROI was not complete at launch and thus could not be sold as a complete pack i don't see what that has to do with the deterioration of TP value
and again the comparison is moot as neither mirkwood nor moria were initially released in the store
while i agree that it was a major screwup ROI was not complete at launch and thus could not be sold as a complete pack i don't see what that has to do with the deterioration of TP value
Yet they sold the incomplete expansion to those who pre-ordered without issue. What they could have done is had them all seperately in the Store and then had a full pack for around 4,000 TP with a note saying the instances would be added later.
Originally Posted by flyingcircus
and again the comparison is moot as neither mirkwood nor moria were initially released in the store
Store or not, the RoI purchase with TP was almost 100% more costly than Moria or Mirkwood was at release.
Yet they sold the incomplete expansion to those who pre-ordered without issue. What they could have done is had them all seperately in the Store and then had a full pack for around 4,000 TP with a note saying the instances would be added later.
you say it like this should be absolutely simple however when it comes to making games rarely is anything that simple... we both don't really know how the store actually works.. for instance it is not using keys at all.. the web store release is.. if i had to take a guess i'd wager the mechanics both use are entirely different and not interchangeable
Store or not, the RoI purchase with TP was almost 100% more costly than Moria or Mirkwood was at release.
comparing a recent TP release price with a +2 year old web store release price
Both Mirkwood and Moria were between £10 - £20 (prices I bought them for). When it comes to RoI, even the cheapest pre-order was £25 and in the store it was around £40+, providing you had no TP to begin with which was the situation I found myself in.
When Moria and Mirkwood were released everyone had to pay a subscription on top of it.
You can compare pre-f2p and post-f2p, you can compare current prices for new and old content but that does not make the comparison much more valid.
While I think that the TP price for the whole expansion is about 500-1000TP higher than I expected I can understand the pricing. And I certainly can understand the piecemeal pricing.
If something is too expensive for you in whatever currency then do not buy it. Vote with your wallet whether it contains £, € or $ or TP. It is rather simple really.
Or perhaps LoTRO is truly a sinking ship, and the developers are trying to squeeze out as much money as they can from it...?
Think about it. Carelessless is written all over the game now. LoTRO is no longer about Tolkien's lore - it's nothing but a pretty money machine.
I, however, hope this is not true. LoTRO is the best MMO (in my opinion, having played most others) on the web and I hope it can pull itself out of this sinkhole.
I can't imagine LOTRO is a sinking ship given the state it's at. Maybe it's not bringing in a ton more business, but I haven't seen the game go downhill. I see A LOT of people here complaining about this game a ton, which makes me wonder, why do you even play it?
In every MMO that I have played (Starting with EQ in 1999), people talk about how the game they are playing (EQ, WoW, Lotro, Guild Wars, etc) is going downhill because of *insert reason here*. EQ is still around today, it was said WoW is going to take it out, then Rift was going to take out WoW, etc, etc. It never happens, if you don't like the game...play a different one. That easy...
NB: This is a LONG post. Please be aware of this if you generally dislike long posts. Thanks.
* * * * * * * *
Summary of Contents:
1. Reaffirmation that I do not think that the game is imminently going to shut down, and that I believe it is still earning revenue.
2. Discussion and theories as to why some players seem to think the game has "gone downhill" whereas others disagree.
3. Summary of reasons why it is possible to play - and enjoy - LotRO whilst simultaneously complaining about it.
4. Note of reasons why I personally tend to make critical Forum posts while also continuing to play the game.
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Originally Posted by plague311
I can't imagine LOTRO is a sinking ship given the state it's at.
I also don't think the game is about to shut down: as I said in my lengthy post above, one does not "kill the goose that lays the golden eggs", and I am sure that the LotRO "goose" remains profitable enough to keep it alive for at least a reasonable time. However, I am certainly not the only long-term player who feels, as I also said, that the "goose" is - in my view - deteriorating rather markedly in quality, as it were, whatever the value of its "eggs".
Originally Posted by plague311
Maybe it's not bringing in a ton more business, but I haven't seen the game go downhill.
While obviously not putting you personally in any particular category of player (that would be terribly arrogant: I have no idea about your play style, nor upon what you base your opinions!), I have seen the view that LotRO has *not* "gone downhill" since F2P expressed for many reasons; some of them are common enough to fall into recognisable "categories", a few of which I will list here.
Firstly, and most frequently, I have heard this opinion stated reasonably often by players who joined after F2P was introduced, and who therefore, with all due respect, cannot realistically judge whether or not the nature of the pre-F2P game was essentially different and/or superior. The introduction of F2P and the LotRO Store has had a far wider-ranging and deeper effect upon the game overall than most players expected, but of course players who joined *after* F2P was introduced will have seen a greater or lesser degree of change, depending upon how soon after F2P's introduction they joined.
I have also heard this opinion stated by players whose main in-game activity is Raiding or otherwise highly combat-centric, and for *those* players I'd argue that the game's content has actually *improved*, or at least markedly increased: combat-wise, much work has been done; new Instances added and existing ones revamped; the introduction of Instance "scaling"; a *LOT* of (ongoing) work on introducing and constantly adding/improving Skirmishes; and of course now the new, huge, Isengard Instance Cluster, with its uniquely designed "upscaling" rewards. Not forgetting the Instance Finder - love it or hate it, it's yet another example of a *large* piece of new content aimed at making combat more accessible/attractive. And that's all without mentioning the huge plethora of new, shiny combat-earned rewards, nor the ever-growing selection of combat-related items and enhancements available in-Store.
That's good news for fans of the combat side of the game (and/or of the Store!), but those of us who value other aspects of the game just as highly, especially those who were already long-term players before F2P was launched, have not - in my opinion - found an awful lot being added to the game to cater to our needs, and have even seen some in-game aspects downgraded or simply removed (for example, Crafting has been systematically degraded, in my view, and the latest simple removal of in-game content is the now-missing Reputation Barter NPCs: OK, they didn't *do* much, but they added a nice "realism" aspect which has now gone, and their mere presence helped to "flesh out" the in-game world). These are just two examples - I won't bore you with more.
A similar example of a post-F2P change which could well cause some players to take the view that the game has not, overall, deteriorated, but has, if anything, improved, is the set of changes which have been brought in to cater for "hoarders" (that would include me, incidentally!), and also for fans of purely Cosmetic items (of all kinds: clothing, Mounts, house decorations, and so on). The removal of Experience Level limits on the amount of Vault Storage each Character can own, the overall increase in Vault Storage, the introduction of Shared Storage and also the Wardrobe, together with the enormously increased variety of Cosmetic items now available thanks to the Store, will of course mean that players for whom the whole "Cosmetic" side of the game is important will feel that the game offers more in this regard - as it indeed does! - than it did before F2P.
Likewise, fans of "fluff" in-game content (as opposed to Cosmetic *items*, per se) will probably be pleased with the increasing complexity of the Quarterly Festivals, with added Quests (particuarly the Haunted Burrow available during the Harvest Festival and, of course, the Winterhome addition to the Yule Festival) and - assuming one is a fan of them - the addition and constant expansion of the Festival Consumable items, now even with associated Deeds granting permanent "forced Emote" Skills; plus a general expansion of the number and variety of rewards on offer during each Festival. Players who like all of these Festival-related content expansions will, no doubt, feel that the game is actually improving, at least in that aspect.
The above examples are, of course, not an exhaustive list as to why any given "type" of player, all of whom prefer different aspects of the game, may not agree that the *overall* quality and/or richness of in-game content has deteriorated: it would all depend upon how important, to them, those features which *have* been added are. For myself, none of the above outweighs, or even counterbalances, what I perceive to be a general lowering of in-game overall content quality and variety, as well as a straying away from the game's central (and, to me, vital) "Tolkienesque" and "Lore-based" nature, but that doesn't make me right and anyone else wrong. It just explains why I am seen to be complaining on the Forums about the game's content falling below par when it is actually easy to point to a number of new in-game additions since F2P and say: "But look - in fact, a lot has been added! The game's improving, not deteriorating!". Each to his own: what is an "improvement" to one player may actually be *disliked* by another.
Lastly, I have of course seen the "LotRO hasn't deteriorated" opinion being given by long-term players who simply like the direction the game is taking - and who am I to state that I am right and they are wrong? However, it's fair to say that the number of long-term players who have changed their viewpoint - from initially being optimistic about F2P towards, gradually, ending up rather despondent about the game's future, certainly when compared with its past - is probably larger than the number of "old-timers" who are still *generally* enthusing about the game and the way it's going. And, of course, it's worth remembering that a reasonably large percentage of old-time players have simply left, so their opinions aren't being heard at all.
Effectively, the whole "feel" and atmosphere of the game has, for me, simply *changed* since F2P was introduced, in such a way that, while many players - especially new players and those who like the Store and what it offers - are quite happy, many others, who preferred the notably different "feel" of the game before F2P and don't much like and/or use the Store, are now making themselves heard on the Forums by means of increasing numbers of pessimistic and critical posts.
Originally Posted by plague311
I see A LOT of people here complaining about this game a ton, which makes me wonder, why do you even play it?
That's easy to answer (as is the unspoken question as to why people would play a game whilst simultaneously complaining about it all the time). I can't speak for anyone but myself, but *I* still play because, no matter the fact that recent content has been, in my view, of a lesser quality that what went before it, and despite the fact that I don't like many of the recent changes and/or additions to the game, it is *still* a fascinating, unique and magical game which, certainly up to and including Mines of Moria, represents the most amazingly beautiful and wonderfully hand-crafted MMO out there, with every single detail, large or small, lovingly (and in a Lore-appropriate way) incorporated into the game world and - most important of all, to me - I still find that I can, with a bit of effort, ignore the "Buy Now!" Store buttons everywhere and immerse myself in the Net's *ONLY* licensed Tolkien-based MMO. I play not because this is "an MMO", but because it is Middle-Earth, and that is true for many players. The devs put an enormous amount of work, past and present, into creating an intricate, faithful and truly "massive" online world which any Tolkien fan can't help but enjoy, so here I am, and here I stay; the older SoA and MoM (and even SoM) Regions are, for me, a world in which I can truly feel I am part of Tolkien's Middle-Earth, and building/"living" a Character within such a fantastic world is something which no other game offers.
As to why I *also* complain about aspects of the game which I don't like: that's also easy to answer. If nobody tells Turbine what they *don't* like, but only appears on the Forums in order to praise aspects they enjoy, then how are the devs ever going to get realistic feedback on what the player-base does or does not prefer? Then there's a second, but no less valid point: "negative feedback", i.e. criticism, is probably of more use to any company than "positive feedback", i.e. praise. OK, it's *nice* to bask in the glory of a "Well done Turbine, we love you!" thread on the Forums, but happy players are obviously going to keep on playing (and paying!), so the company doesn't actually *need* that input, no matter how *pleasant* it might be. However, it's much more of a concern if unhappy players, who *don't* like this or that aspect of the game, simply leave quietly than if they moan about it on the Forums: at least that moaning gives Turbine the *chance* - whether they act upon it or not - to do something to make those players happy again: and happy = bringing in revenue, which is, after all, the bottom line. I know I'd far rather hear a complaint than simply see an unhappy player quietly leave, without even the chance to deal with whatever it was that they didn't like.
In short: I love LotRO. That's *WHY* I post, as I do, on these Forums, about aspects of the game I don't like: it is in the hope that Turbine might (who knows? It's possible!) actually read the odd post here and there, and might care enough about losing long-term paying customers - or, indeed, about maintaining the image of LotRO as a high-quality, content-rich and top-class game - to amend or reverse unpopular changes which can, according to one's opinions, be seen as damaging the game rather than enhancing it.
I complain whilst still playing because I enjoy the game greatly and care so much about it, not because I don't.
Why others complain, yet continue to play, well - you'd have to ask them!
Best,
Demelza of Lórien
Friend of the Wild and Lady of Streams
Last edited by Demelza; Dec 26 2011 at 12:58 AM.
Reason: Forgot to include the example of some players liking the post-F2P Cosmetic/"fluff" content enhancements.
Hey, don't run away, everyone - this one is actually readable!
Originally Posted by astalyn
Or perhaps LoTRO is truly a sinking ship, and the developers are trying to squeeze out as much money as they can from it...?
In my (already lengthily stated!) view, the "old" LotRO which many long-term players remember nostalgically is certainly sinking pretty fast under the weight of the Store and the Micro-Transactions model, but, if anything, for as long as the new model is bringing in money, I believe that the game - even if in name only - will continue to exist. As I said in my long waffle, it's the *FORM* the future LotRO will take which is bothering me so much, since I remember it as it used to be before F2P altered it so drastically.
Originally Posted by astalyn
Think about it. Carelessless is written all over the game now. LoTRO is no longer about Tolkien's lore - it's nothing but a pretty money machine.
That's certainly true of many aspects of the game. However, there still remains enough of the "core" LotRO (if one develops "selective blindness" with regard to all of the UI Store buttons!) to enjoy all of the pre-Enedwaith Regions: even SoM was streets ahead of Enedwaith (and, it goes without saying, RoI) when it comes to there still being a living, breathing, *carefully rendered* and Tolkienesque/Lore-faithful rendering of Middle-Earth there to enjoy.
Originally Posted by astalyn
I, however, hope this is not true. LoTRO is the best MMO (in my opinion, having played most others) on the web and I hope it can pull itself out of this sinkhole.
^^ Took the words right out of my mouth: in fact, this is an excellent paraphrase of the long waffle I posted myself! I keep on playing, enjoying the many aspects of the game which remain to be enjoyed, avoiding the parts I find to be either non-Lore-appropriate and/or too blatant in terms of being nothing but cash sinks, and hoping against hope that, if enough of us keep on complaining, Turbine may, at some point, realise that they are throwing away the Net's far-and-away best MMO in the name of... what? Yet another "generic MMO" for a revolving-door player-base to visit every couple of months or so?
I hope, no matter how unlikely it may be, that the "Powers That Be" within WB/Turbine will realise what a precious product they own, and will reverse the trend towards turning it into nothing more than a "Buy Now!" cash-grab.
You never know. Stranger things have happened. And they still have the great old SoA/MoM Regions to look back on and... learn?
Best,
Demelza of Lórien
Friend of the Wild and Lady of Streams
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Originally Posted by GregJL
"Turbine raised the price of Turbine points! It's the end of LOTRO!"
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Re: 23,000 Turbine Points
Re: 23,000 Turbine Points
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