Thread: LM main healing 3-mans

Nice simple example
I've been thinking much the same when I've been traiting to heal.
Even though Healer affects flank heals and power shares as well as reducing our power costs I still can't see it being more useful than Light of Hope.
I can't be alone can I? Or am I missing something?

If it's only a morale healing issue, I'd generally choose LoH over Healer, but maybe there's something I don't know.

Also, Healer doesn't seem to influence flank heals. See Graalx2's comment:

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...12#post5878512

EDIT: Actually, lemme do some calculations to include Healer's bonus to Inner flame healing. Will edit later.

EDIT2: So thinking it over, Healer's effect on morale related to the other skills (e.g. WoTC, Inner Flame, etc.) is just a simple 10%.

The most noticeable effect of Healer will be on Inner Flame's induction time, from 16 seconds to 8. Since Inner Flame is a HoT and I'm not in-game, I'm not sure if this induction reduction will affect the overall healing rate. But, being rooted for 8 fewer seconds is always a good thing, assuming you actually use Inner Flame. I'm sure this is old news for some people, but I've never thought it through carefully until now.

Healer trait increasing heal from flanks, but not decreasing Inner Flame as Healer's tooltip say "Induction" not "Channel durration".

Originally Posted by Ritenn

Healer trait increasing heal from flanks, but not decreasing Inner Flame as Healer's tooltip say "Induction" not "Channel durration".

So they actually changed flank heals? Can you post a link please?

You're right, good catch on the Inner Flame.

Originally Posted by Blastoise

No Light of Hope? I find that interesting, thought it was one of the more useful blue traits along with Improved Flanking and Healer.

Oops. I just realized I picked the wrong blue to list. Yes, the -10s reduction one, so not Healer, but Light of Hope, along with Flanking. How embarrassing. You can tell how often I spec blue huh Healer would be next for sure, but Force of Will is really worth it. Healer would probably have to be upped to 40-50% for me to take it in 3mans.

Thanks for the analysis, btw/however!

If you have the OD-set, I think AM + light of hope and healer is the way to go. Then you don't need the improved flanking trait and do have all other nice bonuses. I found that the decrease of ~500 will is still worth it for Beacon of Hope: the initial heal is smaller, but with the HoT the overall healing of the skill is still significantly higher. Only useful if you're there for pure healing, of course.

Originally Posted by rhegan

Oops. I just realized I picked the wrong blue to list. Yes, the -10s reduction one, so not Healer, but Light of Hope, along with Flanking. How embarrassing. You can tell how often I spec blue huh Healer would be next for sure, but Force of Will is really worth it. Healer would probably have to be upped to 40-50% for me to take it in 3mans.

Thanks for the analysis, btw/however!

Hah that's settled it then. Light of Hope > Healer

Originally Posted by rhegan

I did some healing in various 3mans, including a Dargnakh run (T1) with a guard and hunter, recently, and some duoing of 3mans (T1). Spec'ing 5yellow/2blue (healer, flank), eagle, force of will works way way better than most of the other setups I've tried. Possibly the most micromanage-intensive gameplay for the class.

Thank you for the idea. I tried it yesterday (AM/flank/LoH/limrafn) with a hunter and a warden, neither of whom ever completed Pits before. It was very rough, although we managed. I think it'd go a lot smoother with a more experienced and better geared group, but it was still a lot of fun.

The general rule has been to save AM for big raids, but I really am enjoying the new ideas. I never did get the OD set and now feel some motivation to do it (maybe after I take down Saruman and get my 5th piece, lol).

What I find amusing about this thread is the fact that there's another thread in the forums stating that they don't even need a healer for the 3 mans, with several class configurations. Which makes this 'LM as healers' idea that much more amusing. Are you really helping or just holding back the group if they had replaced you with something else?

Originally Posted by anteku

Thank you for the idea. I tried it yesterday (AM/flank/LoH/limrafn) with a hunter and a warden, neither of whom ever completed Pits before. It was very rough, although we managed. I think it'd go a lot smoother with a more experienced and better geared group, but it was still a lot of fun. .

Cool! That sounded like alot of fun, and yes you have to be VERY on your toes - the more the tank isn't the more chaotic it becomes. A warden spamming conviction would make this fight super easy, at least until the end boss, where the lack of FMs might come into play (we depended on one FM for an emergency heal). I think wardens also suffer quite a bit at the end from mitigations, so I hope that gets improved some for them next update, which should be a warden patch. But *cheer* congrats!

I'm debating getting the OD set as well. I've seen a couple of LMs get it since the cost was lowered with RoI and it still is far superior, even with less outgoing healing, etc, for 3mans. I would love to have all set bonuses consolidated or removed from actual sets - something like 'run X a number of Y times and get a token to add set bonus Z to your gear.' I doubt that OD set got a lot of play among most of the playerbase. Late release, high cost, level cap to follow. I know I didn't bother.


edit: Really the above doesn't even deserve a response, but I'm bored.. :
And yes, competent top geared players with a perfect run won't need a healer for most of these, especially on T1. Good luck finding that, especially in a PUG, or good luck doing it without power issues. But the trolling is appreciated.

I know others have done this earlier, but I still wanted to mention we just did Dargnakh T2. It was 2 LMs (me, Rastorn) and a guard (Nasememoth). I was KoA while Rast was blue/red. We used the limrafns for the final fight. We wiped once at Huva due to over-dpsing him by accident, but did just fine with the final boss.

Interesting posts here.....I actually never considered myself much of a healer type nor thought that I'd ever try because I thought it would be difficult....I am mostly MoNF or AM.....But a hunter and champ friend got a group going for Isen 3-mans and asked me to heal...so just for giving it a shot coz they insisted, I went....

I was quite surprised at our healing capability....got me quite curiously interested.....I am not healing specced in any way, nor do I have any legacies related to that....I went full KoA (Light of Hope, Improved Flanking, Improved Inner Flame, Healer & Master of Beasts) alongwith Master of Staff and Harmony with Nature....went with the Eagle pet....

Fangorn's Edge (as many have stated above) went extremely smoothly...hardly broke a sweat....havent tried Dargnakh yet......Pits went really well until we got to the Poison wing boss....Ironarm....there I had to switch to Limrafn and though it performed better (becoz it dint die unlike the eagle) because of the morale return skill....but still it was a tough fight....and we couldnt make it....maybe some lucky crits might have saved the day, but dint happen so....

Maybe it was because we went without an actual "tank" class (champ was tanking) or dunno....but can anyone who has successfully done Pits mind sharing a few pointers? I'd like to give it a go again...

Also I am curious, whats the outgoing healing rating that LMs have normally (those that pull off healing all these 3-mans successfully)

Originally Posted by Ravanel

If you have the OD-set, I think AM + light of hope and healer is the way to go. Then you don't need the improved flanking trait and do have all other nice bonuses.

Thats wrong, you need anyway "the improved flanking trait" because Aire-Lore Target gets the flanked heal two times(with OD Set and improved flanking trait).


OD-Set is well spaced out the best Healer Set(today). You only loose 500will, but your beacon of hope is nearly twice as fast as before. With the right Pet(Eagle or Friend of Nature) you have every 10-15sec. a Groupheal(on the Aire-Lore target 2Heals) uncrit. 1100(crit. 1600)

With the OD-Set you still have 1500will(40%outgoing Healrating), thats ok.

Healing is not only HPS. So dazed oder stunned Mob make 0 Dmg and our debuffs a still good too.

Its not so easy, but with an good equip Guardian you can Heal the Foundry t2, or Helegrod Giants/Drake/Spider Wing.


I test my old Set the last week in Tower of Orthanc T2. And my Grouphealing support is much better than from an Captain.


Greez Ursula

Originally Posted by Ursula2000

Thats wrong, you need anyway "the improved flanking trait" because Aire-Lore Target gets the flanked heal two times(with OD Set and improved flanking trait).

That's right, I forgot about that. Swapped to Impr. Flanking and Light of Hope as soon as I realized. I personally still prefer the Ancient Master capstone above some individual blue traits for the real hard stuff.

I love the OD set, I use it in the ToO as well.

Originally Posted by Ursula2000

bacon of hope

MMMmmmmmm.......

If we had a boar pet, this is what I would name mine.

Originally Posted by silverblade5445

Maybe it was because we went without an actual "tank" class (champ was tanking) or dunno....but can anyone who has successfully done Pits mind sharing a few pointers? I'd like to give it a go again...

Also I am curious, whats the outgoing healing rating that LMs have normally (those that pull off healing all these 3-mans successfully)

Congrats on your runs. Hopefully, pits will go smoother next time.

There are definitely several different ways to do it. I'll share what works for me. On Ironarm, the most important thing is to avoid limrafn damage. As you probably know, the limrafn spawn when the boss moves into the green stuff. What we do is: (1) have the tank and boss avoid the green stuff; (2) set the 3rd party member on limrafn duty - their highest priority is to kill spawns; (3) debuff boss as much as possible. I've only healed Pits on T1, but these worked well for us. Also, I used our limrafn pet while traited yellow/blue.

My outgoing healing is between 22K-25K, depending on gear. I actually don't pay attention to it. More is obviously better, but good timing of skills and use of debuffs is more important than the stats themselves, IMHO.

I do stack morale, however, so that I'm close to 8K when I heal. This lets me worry less about dieing myself. If I'm worrying about my morale, then I'm kiting or self-healing, and that takes time away from healing/debuffing. I'm know other people don't need this level of morale, but it's helpful for me.

Good hunting. I look forward to hearing your success stories.

Originally Posted by brasswire12

MMMmmmmmm.......

If we had a boar pet, this is what I would name mine.

Ohhh^^ I´m not a native englishspeaker. I hope you will pardon me my typing error. After you quote it, i laugh loud too.

But i have many funny names for Loremaster skills.

"Test of Will" looks in my eye´s, like a "Finger of Death".

Ursl

I had my very first opportunity to heal a 3-man last night. The instance finder matched me up with a guardian and a burglar and sent us to the Pit of Abomination (Tier 1). I think only the burg had been there before so the other two of us were flying blind. It certainly was not a flawless run. We did the fire side and had some back luck getting through there. We only wiped once on the final fire-boss. I was glad of the burg for some emergency FM heals.

I learned some things that will improve my performance next time. I forgot all about traiting improved inner flame for group heals. I had all of the spirit of nature's skills on auto-fire at the beginning of the boss fight. Next time I will start with one and then toggle the others so they don't all come of cool-down at the same time.

I did gain a whole new level of respect for the minstrels. I did my share of retreat-run back-rez cycles that I have seen minstrels do countless times in instances.

It was fun and I really appreciated the patience of the two players I did the run with. I even told them up front I'd never healed an instance and they still ran it.

Originally Posted by silverblade5445

Maybe it was because we went without an actual "tank" class (champ was tanking) or dunno....but can anyone who has successfully done Pits mind sharing a few pointers? I'd like to give it a go again...

Pits is going to need a guard imo, for the final boss, if you do acid, and likely spec yellow. Fire is doable, with an LM healing, with any heavy tanking. T2 I'm not sure about at all I've healed T1 fire easily on there with a guard and hunter. The hunter is on his own usually :P

Fangorn is pretty easy, yeah. You can duo that with a heavy/ward even, sometimes spec'd MonF no less.

Originally Posted by silverblade5445

Also I am curious, whats the outgoing healing rating that LMs have normally (those that pull off healing all these 3-mans successfully)

I'm around 47%ish. I don't have any healing relics or special LIs spec'd for healing, so this is max dps (also max outgoing healing) setup. I'm around 7.3kish morale this way (else 8.6k + 41% outgoing, for max morale), so swap around some. Healing relics would help a bunch, yes.

I did T1 Fangorn with a hunter and a warden. Traited 4 red with Eagle, Healer, Light of Hope, and Improved Flanking. It worked very welll.

A wild Captain appears!

I can't say that I've had any LMs main-heal any of my groups. Sorry, but as a Captain I just have better heals than you.

However, pre-ROI I was a Burglar, and I played with an LM healing both of the OD 3-mans. You guys were especially awesome in Stoneheight, where a large portion of the damage came from wounds. Wound removal meant that some LM healers did way better than many Minstrels/RKs I tried it with. That instance was designed for LMs. I specifically remember trying to run it with a really good guardian friend. We went through two RKs and a Minstrel that couldn't pass first boss, and then finally tried an LM. Tore through it with ease .

That said, my favorite group is Captain/Champion/X. With a Captain doing melee DPS as he heals, and a Champion doing AoE as he tanks, runs go ultra-fast. I've actually done a Captain/Champion/Lore-Master group, and the combined power of debuffs, ungodly amounts of AoE, and backup heals meant we tore through Pits T2 in no time flat.

And a note on Captain tanking. Our tanking is approximately equivalent to your healing. We can manage it in a 3-man, but it is really hard and requires extremely good gear. An LM barely managing to heal and a Captain barely managing to tank is going to mean a long, hard run. Your average Captain has trouble tanking even with a main-healing class. If we're getting enough healing to keep us alive, we can barely hold aggro.

So if you're going to try main-healing a 3-man, you should probably get a real tank. We can barely hold aggro and we're far squishier than any other tanking class. Even a well-played warden can take more of a beating than we can, and they hold aggro like it's nothing.

I haven't really done much in terms of healing 3 mans yet... I've healed PoI and Fangorn T2 with a hunter/guard combo. Hunter liked to pull aggro which made it more interesting than it should have been I suppose.

That run was a while ago, but made me think that in certain groups it may be beneficial to just dps trait, and throw in a healing trait or two. The faster things die, the less damage people take. I think that would have been the case for the group I was in for those instances. Darg would definitely be another story as you don't actually kill him anyway, so debuffs would be king there.

Finally, after gearing up slightly better and working out some rotations, I managed to beat Pits of Isengard (Fire Boss) t1 without much casualty....

Although I am specially making this post to make an honorable mention of the Limrafn......Till now (even after update 5) I considered it just an average healing pet.....coming out of the comfort zone of the Eagle was a lil daunting, but after studying the cooldowns and the rotation a bit, the Spirit pet can do some SPECTACULAR healing in single target boss fights.....truly exceptional......I was running with a guard and a champ and during our first attempt, unfortunately due to lag, the champ died and only the tank and me remained.....I was stunned to see myself (with the Limrafn ofcourse) heal through the entire snail-paced fight (since I was in AM-KoA mixture of traits and conserving some power to heal only the tank's and somewhat mine dps remained).....we got it right down to 20k when due to another accident, we lost that fight, but we completed it without mishaps in the second attempt quite easily


Also a big change I need to mention against my previous experience that I posted.....as some others have suggested before in this thread......I stand corrected.....going AM-KoA balance is far more effective than going full KoA.....our debuffs assist in healing a lot

So I went with

Deep Lore
Study of Frost Lore
Improved SoP:C
Healer
Light of Hope
Improved Flanking
Master of Staff (for the morale boost)

With S&S - Ents - Noble Savage

i've healed foundry t1 4-man, hunt-ward-guard combo

Originally Posted by Philosomanic

A wild Captain appears!
...
So if you're going to try main-healing a 3-man, you should probably get a real tank. We can barely hold aggro and we're far squishier than any other tanking class. Even a well-played warden can take more of a beating than we can, and they hold aggro like it's nothing.

I disagree. I have healed all the 3 mans T1 with any strange groupings of classes at some point. Granted not always easy, but if I want easy Ill go to Loth and sing to trees. Easist to run for me is a Champ/Cappy, LM, and either a secnd Champ or Hunter. Killer DPS for shorter fights there fore requireing less heals and they can usually take a pretty good punch.

Just to add to the thread:

I haven`t been online that often since RoI and when I am I`m either raiding or lvling my cappy.

Just after launch I managed to mainheal Fangorn T1 with champ and hunter, all 3 of us first time there, went quite smooth.

Recently, we managed to do Dargnakh Unleashed T2 Challenge with 2 LMs and a Champ.
We both ran full blue for max healing output (since debuffs can be rotated to keep up constantly anyway), one of us went boglurker for the ranged flanks, the other went lightbulb.
Took us a few tries to get the basics of the fight down but we managed it in the end, without a specialised/dedicated tank and only with `off-healers`
EDIT: Also, neither of us had access to the OD set, would`ve helped us greatly in retrospect but can`t really conjure it out of thin air :P

Later tried T1 with LM/Hunt/Guard but couldn`t do it, wether it was lack of heals or lack of decent gear (Hunter had more armour than guard, shield included) the guard would die whenever the AoE earthquake thing started.

For dargnakh I certainly advise to take limrafn or bog and a sturdy tank, melee pets won`t last trough the AoE/Earthquake...

Haven`t tried healing pits yet but haven`t set foot in there either, maybe soon :P

Originally Posted by Mystion_EU

Later tried T1 with LM/Hunt/Guard but couldn`t do it, wether it was lack of heals or lack of decent gear (Hunter had more armour than guard, shield included) the guard would die whenever the AoE earthquake thing started

I think you identified the issue. You don't need an uber guard, but you do want one who's sufficiently sturdy. As you gain more practice, you can heal less sturdy fellowship members, but there are some situtations where it is just not possible (I recall this one run where a warden had less morale than anyone in the fellowship - it wasn't an issue of healing when he'd get one-shotted).

Since I first aquired the skill Back to The Brink many years ago , I loved the herb component wich made me wonder why LMs couldn't be Athelas-Healer-likeish .

He , I wonder if we'll ever see a revamp of the class .

Playing a lot in a duo with my LM wifey(I'm captain) we did quite few things with her main healing and me mainly tanking but also giving some healing too. All Isen 3-mans on T1 are duo doable(though in Dragnakh case it'd be killing him, rather turning into stone), did also duo fire boss in pits on T2 due to mini quitting. Stuff like school/library is walk in the park. She's using 4 blue / 3 red set up with eagle. Oh and improved air lore(the one that negates some damage 100% of time) can give quite hilarious results on trash mobs

Originally Posted by Fuin

All Isen 3-mans on T1 are duo doable

T1 3 mans are designed for not needing a healer .

Originally Posted by Louvre

T1 3 mans are designed for not needing a healer .

And can You really do a Dragnakh at t1 with say 3 hunters? I know t1s have been nerfed in some post U5 patch, but You do make it sound easier than it actually is. Sure they don't need raid quality healer like minstrel or RK, but they still do require decent amount of healing.

Originally Posted by Fuin

And can You really do a Dragnakh at t1 with say 3 hunters? I know t1s have been nerfed in some post U5 patch, but You do make it sound easier than it actually is. Sure they don't need raid quality healer like minstrel or RK, but they still do require decent amount of healing.

A developer said so .

He even went to the point of saying that if a T1 ever requires a healer , they would change it so it wouldn't need it at all .

Now , no one ever said that T1s were doable with no healer and no tank ...

Man, I love blue LMs!

Summer of '11, I used to do lvl 50 Tham Mirdain on my lvl 48 warden with my buddies a blue LM and a WS minstrel. Worked out swell, and we enjoyed ourselves. T2 skirmishes too. Those were good times. When ROI hit they'd caught up to my captain in level. We'd take breaks from doing dunland quests and go back to our old habits of running Sch/Lib and T2&3 skirms. The T3 skirmishes would put a strain on the LM sometimes... I feel like y'all oughta get a little buff in healing.

With RoI, I was eager to tank stuff on my Captain. By the time U5 hit I'd built up a decent tanking outfit from running lots of skraids. I also had an LM kinmate who loved running blue traits. Shining moment was us beating Dargnahk T2 with a burg along. I won't say it was a piece of cake, 'cause it wasn't, but its something I still think about and enjoy the memory of.

I'd love to see the devs buff your single-target healing even more. We captains smoke y'all in AOE heals, and I feel like that's how it oughta be. I think it'd be balanced if you smoked us in single-target heals

Originally Posted by Philosomanic

Wall o' text from a while ago about cappy tanks

On the subject of average captain tanks... he *MIGHT* have the right of it. But bear in mind if an LM is healing, and say a guard is tanking, you're probably not going to have a captain for the 3rd spot. So take a captain and apply buffs, then take an equally guard with no buffs and compare. Generally speaking, the captain's gonna have a few thousand less health, and at max 5% less mitigation. Probably 5-10% less total avoidance. But the captain's also gonna have around 20% more incoming healing. And we got better self heals. Get a warden, and the health & inc healing comparison's the same. Lots more avoidance and self heals for warden, cappy wins by probably +10% mitigation and the gap widens the better gear each gets (warden's gonna hit his cap sooner than us).

In short, captain tanks are still pretty well off, though we ain't quite as survivable. Better off than Philosomaniac is alleging.

One other aspect to healing the 3 mans (and other runs) is the incoming healing rating of the tank and other person. I recently pitched a complaint to the 2 tanks I run with. Set for max heals and the healing spirit there were times I could not get their morale to budge (a little exaggeration here). One tank swapped necklaces and picked up an additional 1200 in coming healing and the other slotted different relics. What a huge difference! One reported back I critted for 2 heals for over 3K yesterday. Something to consider if you run with the same peeps a lot. Not a stat many think to look at.

On the other hand, when traited for my best power sharing the freaking Minis are still HUGE power sinks. Two other LMs in my kin have noticed the same thing. I have always preferred a great RK healer to a Minie but now even more. Seems impossible to get power to the Minies. Usually takes a minimum os 2 shots to get their power bar to budge if not 3. Any other class one - maybe 2 if I was slacking and their bar is real low.

Originally Posted by Fuin

And can You really do a Dragnakh at t1 with say 3 hunters? I know t1s have been nerfed in some post U5 patch, but You do make it sound easier than it actually is. Sure they don't need raid quality healer like minstrel or RK, but they still do require decent amount of healing.

I think you could do it with three hunters. Use your fear and root skills where you can. Take advantage of your traps. And with boss enemies, just stand in a large triangle and play some aggro-ping-pong. If you do it right the boss will be always on the run and you nobody gets hit.

But anyway, with three different classes, no matter what classes you'll take, I think you can beat every three-person instance.

I tried traiting KoA in the Fangorn 3-man. I was the only healer. It didnt go well because the LM's cooldowns on heals are too long and sending heals drains the Lm's morale. Plus you can only heal one person at a time. The Improved Inner flame is ok for a small (70-100 per sec for 10 (?) sec) HoT, but that has a cooldown that is too long as well.
In order to restore your morale, you either have to use your Wisdom of the council, morale pots, or hope your pet flanks and you are close enough to the mob to strike with your staff.

And I have said in another post that I have not been able to get the spirit pet to work.

I think the LM is a good off healer and nothing more.

Originally Posted by Tribulation

In order to restore your morale, you either have to use your Wisdom of the council, morale pots, or hope your pet flanks and you are close enough to the mob to strike with your staff.

Um, no. You use Wizard's Fire to restore morale from flanking events. If you use Staff Strike you're consuming flanks to do more damage (if you have master of the staff traited).

Originally Posted by Tapkoh

Um, no. You use Wizard's Fire to restore morale from flanking events. If you use Staff Strike you're consuming flanks to do more damage (if you have master of the staff traited).

Indeed. And hence, if you are healing, you need to avoid using Staff Strike (and sweep) except immediately after Wizard's Fire after a Flank, otherwise you may accidentally miss a flank heal opportunity when it gets used up by the Staff Strike.

Flank heals are your main source of healing, which makes the Eagle the best bet for healing 3-mans (unless there is a fight in which the eagle is likely to be killed by 360 AE). Make sure the eagle is positioned to attack the back of boss mobs, to avoid their frontal AE.

Bog lurker flanks more at melee range, but you have to force it to go to melee range, which is inconvenient. (And, as has been said before, you may be better off 5 in Yellow line for healing 3-mans - with Improved Flanking traited as well and one other Blue - although I prefer Master of the Staff and am too lazy to retrait for different content).