Thread: Orthanc raid *spoilers*

This is not intended to be a thread about raid progressions, just an open discussion about the new mechanics introduced in the Tower of Orthanc amongst our Wityhwindle players for thoughts and suggestions.

So lets start a discussion..


Fire & Frost (tier 1)

While this wing isn't complicated as such, there are a few things to consider. First we have the ruffians and their ability to learn how to resist crowd-control. Another interesting mechanism is the bloodrage given by the warriors in the upper corridors, bubble on the twins and last, but not least - the complete damage immunity on the grim's during the final fight. So in total we have 4 new things here.

Adaptation
*********************
What happens here is that the enemy will learn to resist your crowd-control, so you are only able to use one type of CC before they become immune to it.

Personally I find it rather interesting and refreshing to have the adaptation on enemies, it makes the regular tank & spank a bit more fun since you need positional awareness and the ability to adapt according to the situation on the fly.

So one way to deal with adaptation buff is obviously to start with a mez, go to a daze, maybe a fear, then do a root. Or how do you prefer to do it?

Bloodrage
*********************
The idea of this is that they go into a frenzy unless they taste flesh. It's not like its a ground-breaking new mechanism since it's enough to engage them in combat, and keep them there. If you try to crowd-control, or kite them - they go into frenzy - and we don't want that, do we?

So how do you deal with these? Tank & spank works, how about other ideas?

Damage immunity
*********************
So you are fighting the fire & frost grims, and suddenly you realize that they are not taking any damage. Well the reason for that is the new damage immunity buff which can only be broken by some form of crowd-control.

To solve this problem, apply CC, rinse and repeat. Thoughts?

Bubble
*********************
While fighting the twins they will surrounded by a bubble on several occasions to give them temporary morale boosts, so how do we get around that problem?

For the twins, on tier 1; it doesn't matter much - just wait for the 30 seconds it takes until the bubble goes away, then attack.

Any other comments?

Acid (tier 1)

On tier 1 we don't have too many ground-breaking mechanics here, not to turn your world up-side-down anyhow. The major thing are distributed bloodlust, slugs and something we might call 'ants-in-your-pants'.

Bloodrage
*********************
Just as in Fire & Frost, Bloodlust goes into Frenzy unless you engage the enemies, so that's not too difficult.

Splodin' Slugs
*********************
Think of this as a ticking bomb, literally. You really don't want to stand where it explodes, so keep moving. Now that is easy enough, but combine that together with enemies having Bloodrage and you have yourself a challenge - that's where it gets interesting.

So one way of doing it, is to have someone kite (and kill) the slugs, while someone else engages the wargs, does this work for you, or any other suggestions out there?

Rising tide a.k.a 'Ants-in-your-pants'
*********************
During the fight with Iorweth the acid water in the room will rise and fall, during the flood it is important to keep moving, or your morale will drop quicker than you can say 'whatchawatchingwhilewewipe'.

Solution to the problem, run around like you have a swarm of fire ants crawling in your boxers - and don't stand still.

Did this work for you, or do you have some other nice tricks up your sleeve?

Lightning (tier 1)

We are in for a ride here, this is probably where we have the most mechanics at play. Of course I am talking about the task-masters, what else? So what's so special here then, lets have a look at what goes on with them! (and I'll try not to forget about the sneaky deep-claws) or the tiny troll at the end.

Adaptation
*********************
Yes, just like in the Fire & Frost wing, these enemies have adaptation, which means you can only do one type of CC on them, before they become immune to that type.

Leadership Aura
*********************
The task-masters also have a leadership aura that stacks with itself, giving +20% damage and +20 incoming damage for each enemy within the area. Yes you guessed it right, three task-masters will do +60% extra melee and tactical damage, in addition to the 60% incoming damage.

Healing puddles
*********************
Do you remember those green puddles from Guinokh in Icy Crevasse? These task-masters use the same healing technique and it will incrementally heal any enemy within range of the circle.

So armed with all these funky skills, the task-masters are formidable opponents on their own, but (un)fortunately for us, there are also several large trolls and deep-claws present. So what to do? The tactics are up to you, but keeping the Task-masters occupied one way or another is most definitely required, or do you have other interesting tips to share with us?

Sneaky Deep-claws a.k.a 'wannabe-freight-train'
*********************
It's not really a mechanic as such, but still worth mentioning. These deep-claws are scripted to run in pre-determined paths across the room, and should a player stand in its path there will be a large wound (dealing up to 1000 damage/2 seconds).

Asking me what to do? Don't stand in their way of course!

Static shock
*********************
Energizing to say the least! Static shock introduces a completely unique mechanic to the people!

The shock starts it generation when someone is hit by it and it then charges up in tier as long as you keep getting hit - pretty straight forward right? It does is exactly what it says on the box: it will give you a static shock! As we all know, the longer you rub a balloon, the more static electricity it will store, until its overcharged and explodes - the static shock is no different.

*recently added*
When dealing with the Static Shock, there will also be a new UI object presented on your screen, an event window (which is visible for all all T2 bosses, except Shadow) and it will provide you with a visual display of which tier, and how far along you are for a certain phase. As a rule of thumb, the higher on the meter you go - the more dangerous it gets.


Shadow (tier 1)

Here we are faced with several new mechanics (again!) and it is apparent that Uruk's have now learned how to become a burglar! But wait, there is more! For a limited time only, we are also presented with some shimmering bubbles (again!). To finish off this shadowy business, we have some rather strange mechanics take place at the final boss. Lets take a look all of this!

Bubbles
*********************
Nothing we haven't seen before, except that these bubbles are varied in size and duration and here we are also presented with the fact that if a bubble is not destroyed before expiration - a large buff can, and will, be placed on the enemy.

Crazy burglar stance
*********************
You guessed it, some Uruk'hai will now do 20% extra positional damage. So who said you can't old dogs new tricks?

Easy enough to solve this problem though; change position!

Leadership Aura
*********************
Once again its the same leadership buff here, and what makes it strong and very potent, is it's stacking ability. Very dangerous in small confined spaces.

Choking smoke
*********************
We do it naturally by instinct - we run if a puddle of dangerous substance is placed where we stand - but are we doing the right thing?

That my dear Watson is for you to figure out with the newly introduced Choking smoke. Enjoy it while it lasts!

Tingly tentacles
*********************
Not as unique as it is annoying, these tentacles will spawn and root you. Kill it and you are good to go.

Continuous light
*********************
Having talked about debuffs all day long, how about a buff for once? The light buff is rather straight forward - stand in the light and you are safe from the shadows.

I decided not to talk about Saruman's unique mechanics quite yet since many players still want to work them out.
So for the sake of this discussion, please don't talk about the fight at the top of the Tower quite yet.

So what about all of these mechanics, have you experienced them? What do you think of them? Are they good/bad?
Any other mechanics you would like to talk about to share the knowledge?

The word is yours, lets talk!

Well, first +rep for the incentive. I´d also like to commend you on the very readable format you chose (a quality on its own). You could probably add an explanation of what the new event window signifies.

On the Lightning Boss we opted for a merry-go-round approach, force-challenging him through 4 heavies until he was down, while weathering the Distributed lights attack by standing tightly packed. It still feels a bit wonky though, I´d like to hear if others have a different approach. Also, comments by those that are taking on tier2 challenges and what differences to expect are encouraged.

There´s simply no reason an adult person could support to keep that stuff a "kin secret" :P

Shadow is a rather boring fight on t1, just tank 'n spank and force challenge.... next!

i.e. just heal through the shadows

Originally Posted by Vandervahn

You could probably add an explanation of what the new event window signifies.

Added a few words about that, thank you.

Originally Posted by Fralin

Shadow is a rather boring fight on t1, just tank 'n spank and force challenge.... next!

i.e. just heal through the shadows

Personally I think the way up the stairs, the mobs that stand there, are tougher to beat than Bukot.

I'm surprised it isn't bugged O___o

First of all, thanks for posting this, its a good help for starting raiders in Tower.

But can we be a little more specific? I was perusaded by our kinmates we should try the new raid, even if we didnt do our best in OD, although we completed whole T1 at 65. But its Christmas, so what

Most of our members arent very experienced raiders, me neither, even if i participated and finished most of endgame raids at all lvl caps. So any further info would be very helpful.

According to Fralin's PUG thread, where he described Acid wing as the easiest one, ive choosen this. Ive seen several videos on Youtube and there were some differences compared to what you have posted. Especially in "Rising tide a.k.a 'Ants-in-your-pants part" (nice title btw). According to that video(can post it but its not important) during that phase they all just stood where they were, absorbed all the dmg and did nothing. Idk if its a bug or some LM skill.

Anyway i could use your help with one more thing. Our planned group is far from the ideal. We have lack of tanks and even players able to CC. Just wanna confirm my thought that its best to start with CCing Adaptaion adds with skills in some particular order and focus on Bloodlust adds first? And at the last boss, there are adds coming i guess two slugs and two giants, in the video i could not have seen any of these new special buffs. So simply CC giants, focus on slugs(are they those slugs from Splodin' Slugs part?) and then giants? Coz in that video, once again(i guess ill find out that the video ive been studying from is from some completely different game, like Settlers or FIFA), there were no exploding slugs at all...Frankly its confuses me more then it helps...

And one stupid question in the end. Ive already asked my friend in game, but rather ask again before spoiling smthing. To Acid wing leads doors on left side when you enter the raid, right?

Any comments would be nice. We are scheduling it on Thursday, so wish us luck

Originally Posted by Sheepscalp

Most of our members arent very experienced raiders, me neither, even if i participated and finished most of endgame raids at all lvl caps. So any further info would be very helpful.

Don´t worry, if you figured out OD, the tier1 fights except Saruman ARE all doable with a halfway decent group, good communication and the will to experiment a bit (and a few G in the wallet to pay for repairs . One thing to remember though is that your group must get good tactical mitigation. Which means that traiting Innocence and Tolerance, a high vitality stat and other proper gear is indispensable. If everyting fails, go to the skirmish vendor and barter for the "Golden Spear-Head" from the Annuminas treasure (it is very cheap).

Ive seen several videos on Youtube and there were some differences compared to what you have posted. Especially in "Rising tide a.k.a 'Ants-in-your-pants part" (nice title btw). According to that video(can post it but its not important) during that phase they all just stood where they were, absorbed all the dmg and did nothing.

The tooltip is most probably misleading because it mentions running around. In reality it seems that the goal is to get to the high ground, then the effect can easily be resisted. Thats a free tip, because the mechanic is a bit meh on Tier1. On Tier2 it seems to pose quite the challenge due to other factors.

We have lack of tanks and even players able to CC. Just wanna confirm my thought that its best to start with CCing Adaptaion adds with skills in some particular order and focus on Bloodlust adds first?

Thats probably not the best group outset, but certainly doable. The heavies you have should be built for sturdiness then. Be prepared then to kite and switch aggro. Be also prepared to wipe a few times on the trash, more than on the boss. The good news is, a killed enemy stays killed - so look for what you can kill easiest... If you still fail, blame it on Ragnos and Lazy :P

So simply CC giants, focus on slugs(are they those slugs from Splodin' Slugs part?) and then giants? Coz in that video, once again(i guess ill find out that the video ive been studying from is from some completely different game, like Settlers or FIFA), there were no exploding slugs at all...Frankly its confuses me more then it helps...

To clear up one thing, the slugs that are a´splodin do not appear in the bossfight. What you see in the videos are Avancs, these fat worm-kind that you had to fight in the dunbog. There are also two drakeling adds. Of these, the giants (rather trolls) are the most dangerous. Wether you tank, kite or CC them depends on your group.

BTW, the there will be a new UI element popping up; in this fight it simply shows how many times the acid has risen so far. You die when this indicator is full (you have to win within 10 acid swells). Dont worry, not a problem. And thats a real "not a problem", not one of those "I´ve 3-manned OD, so I will call it easy" - no problems.

Nice to see that some other heroes are gathering up to conquer Orthanc!

This thread talks mainly about the mecanics involved; not tactics as such, but some hints & tips can go a long way.

Having said that, there are certainly some mechanics that do require certain types of tactics, and this is where the developers have been very clever when designing the new raid. We'll take a look at that in a few moments.

But first, as Vandervahn mentioned, tactical mitigations are important, very important.

Make sure that everyone optimizes their virtues.
The game-changers are:

- Fidelity
- Innocence
- Tolerance
- Mercy
- Compassion

For a hunter or a burglar, it might seem like a bad idea to replace a rank 12 Determination

+36 agility
+67.5 in-combat morale regeneration
+86 morale

with a rank 10 Tolerance:

+ 405 tactical mitigation
+15 agility
+37.5 in-combat morale regeneration

but if we look closer at this it might not be as stupid as it sounds.

Acid, fire, frost, lightning, shadow damage are all treated as tactical damage, so if we replace Determination with Tolerance, it would mean that your agility is 21 points lower, in other words, that is 210 points less of physical mastery, equal to 0.27% less damage.

However, the increase of +405 tactical mitigation would however make you take 1.8% damage less from EACH tactical attack.

And if you add to the equation, the fact that even trash mobs within Orthanc are easily able to do 3-7k damage, then you can immediatly see the benefit of stacking up for survivability using tactical mitigation.

If you are a VIP-member, then perks are a nice addition to improving your defences as 4,500 destiny points will get you +450 tactical mitigation for 1 hour and 30 minutes. Vitality food, combat scrolls and hope tokens are also valuable assets.

*********************
So, back to the point of tactics.

Being able to perform successful crowd-control on an enemy with the Adaptation skill require just two things:

* A character class which is able to perform crowd-control (kinda obvious)
* Single-attack targeting, to avoid AOE attacks breaking the CC.

Having someone who can do crowd-control is easy enough, but keep in mind that Adaptation means that the enemy will learn how to resist your skills. So if you are playing a burglar who can normally riddle a mob every 30 seconds in Mischief, that means you will only be able to do that once; after that, the mob is immune to all attempts of the same CC technique again.

So how to get around this?
Make sure that your players know their class. Stupid as it may sound, many hunters don't know that they can crowd-control, the same goes for minstrels. Most people think its only Lore-masters and Burglars who can perform crowd-control - shame on them

Since you can only perform one type of crowd-control, it means that you can successfully, for an example, keep an enemy controlled with a burglar's Riddle, a lore-master's Light of the Rising Dawn, a hunters Rain of Thorns, and a minstrels Invocation of Elbereth.

*********************

The next step is to make sure that your group don't attack the crowd-controlled mob - easier said than done!

The most common cause for breaking crowd-controlled enemies, will be your champions swinging their blades wildly at everything that moves (no offence chimps).

The only way to avoid breaking crowd-control is single-target attacks and it is mainly down to the players themselves to pay attention to whats going on around them. To make it easier on yourself, and the group, make sure that your crowd-control spreads out the enemies a bit so that you have room for error should someone use AOE attacks by mistake.

You can also enable the 'Display combat state break notices in chat' under Combat Options in your options panel which will then display who broke the crowd-control so you can later tell them not to do it again. *points finger at the champion*

*********************

It was mentioned earlier to kite mobs if you don't have any heavy armoured guardians, and that is all dandy - as long as you dont run away from the wargs inside the sewers, since they have the bloodrage buff which we discussed earlier, the one that will turn into frenzy if kited.

Also as said, the good thing about doing Orthanc on tier 1 difficulty is that the mobs you kill will stay dead, so focus on killing them one-by-one, until they are all dead.

On tier 2 however, even if you kill 9/10 enemies in a phase, all 10 will respawn should you die.

*edited to remove the word mez*

Originally Posted by lutemaster

Since you can only perform one type of crowd-control, it means that you can successfully keep an enemy controlled with a burglar's MEZ, a lore-master's STUN, a hunters DAZE, and a minstrels FEAR. .

Sorry to ask, but what is a Burglar's MEZ?

We can stun ( various skills) and daze ( with Riddle)
I thought Mez was the term used for various types of CC ( al except root I think, be cause a rooted mob can still attack)

Maybe that list should be burglars Daze and hunters Root?

Originally Posted by Jarnos

...
We can stun ( various skills) and daze ( with Riddle)
I thought Mez was the term used for various types of CC ( al except root I think, be cause a rooted mob can still attack)
...

I believe that Mezmerize specifically refers to daze-type effects on sentient beings, as in "distracting" them. As you may know, burglar riddles only worked on "sentient" mobs before the expansion. Or probably it simply is adapted from another game.

In practise, Daze=Mez, in my understanding

Edit:

OP fixed minor errors in his post.

Originally Posted by Jarnos

In Lotro the term Mez doesn't exists. There are no attack or skills that say they Mez a mob.
They either: Root, Daze, Stun or Fear.
Those are the 4 type of crowd control available in Lotro.
Therefore I find it hard to believe the mob buff Adaptation would see it as a different CC to get protection from.
next time i'm in there I will check how the buffs they get are worded.

Mez is just a generic term used in MMO's to describe crowd controll.
Root is the odd one out in this case, because the mob is still able to attack.

I really like all that lutemaster wrote, but a mistake like that makes me wonder about the credibility of the rest of the post.

It seems (s)he knows what (s)he's writing about but still.


( It also says "The most common cause for breaking stuns/mezzes will be your champions swinging their blades wildly at everything that moves (no offence chimps)"
Except the unique thing about stuns is that they DON'T break on damage.))

As Vandervahn mentioned, in this context, in LOTRO, daze=mez. As a raid leader, when I say I want a certain mob mezzed, the raid LMs/burgs know that to mean that I want it dazed. I suppose it would be simpler to say "I want xxx dazed" but still.

Some mezzes break with dmg, some don't, so to be on the safe side, don't use stuff that COULD break mezzes, i.e. AoE effects. And yes, when raiding mez is the term used for cc that renders the mob incapable of attacks. So using the word Mez doesn't remove any credibility, but rather it removes it if you don't know what a mez is.

On another topic I'm glad my PUG list could be of use to someone. It's actually harder getting to the boss than it is to kill him in acid wing (and yes again, it's the left entrance). The mobs that spawn on t1 are:
2 Dragonets
2 Lizards (non-exploding)
2 Trolls (Can be CCed)

The boss has frontal AoE. As for the acid rise... it seems to be a spelling error that says you need to move but in reality it might be better to sit still. That's all you need to know of the boss. Good Luck

Edit:

removed my comment about the use of the term Mezz.

OP fixed his post by giving examples or the skills, which fixes the problem.

Mezz = Daze, Wether it is on the skill tooltip or not. The term mezz was taken from other games and has been used since release. I still remember the CD leader asking for a mezz as well as the current raid leaders do.

Originally Posted by Jarnos

I agree with the use of the word mezz for crowd controll in raid.
For most situation it's perfectly fine.
( When someone askes me to mezz a mob while playing my burglar, i don't ask if they want a stun or daze)

Except here he uses the term in a list of types of Crowd Control that can be used on mobs with Adaptation.
You can't use a Burglar Mez ( which is a Daze) and a Hunter Daze on the same mob.
So the word Mez CAN't be used in that context.

If you are writing a ( good) guide on the new raid, make sure you use the correct terms.


Again: I really like the effort of it, but little errors like that don't contribute to it's credibility.
And if the post is edited to correct these I will edit my comment gladly.

I am sorry if one word amongst everything I wrote makes you doubt my creditibility.
For a reference to various game terms there is always this list if needed.

If you are traited for Perplexing Riddle and apply riddle on an enemy, it will first do a stun before turning it into a daze.

Originally Posted by Jarnos

You can't use a Burglar Mez ( which is a Daze) and a Hunter Daze on the same mob.

Oh this is new...so basically the rule is, you CANT use, lets say the spell from the same spell class(in D&D terminology) such as hunters Bard's arrow (fear) and then ministrel's Invocation of Elbereth (fear) on the same mob?

And according to that, do mobs with Adaption buff act as a group or a single unit. So if they become immune to one skill(skill type) does the immunity spread on all other mobs or just the particular one?

All of this will be much clearier to me after ill be inside, but when we have a forum here, why i shouldnt ask and be prepared little bit more. So please have a patience with me

Originally Posted by Sheepscalp

Oh this is new...so basically the rule is, you CANT use, lets say the spell from the same spell class(in D&D terminology) such as hunters Bard's arrow (fear) and then ministrel's Invocation of Elbereth (fear) on the same mob?

And according to that, do mobs with Adaption buff act as a group or a single unit. So if they become immune to one skill(skill type) does the immunity spread on all other mobs or just the particular one?

All of this will be much clearier to me after ill be inside, but when we have a forum here, why i shouldnt ask and be prepared little bit more. So please have a patience with me

There are few cc types: Stun/Daze/Fear/Root/Knockdown

Adaptation works on single unit, it does not spread.

The mobs with adaptation become immune to cc type, not particular skill. So yes after burglars riddle, hunters distracting shot will be useless. AFAIK.

Originally Posted by lutemaster

I am sorry if one word amongst everything I wrote makes you doubt my creditibility.
For a reference to various game terms there is always this list if needed.

If you are traited for Perplexing Riddle and apply riddle on an enemy, it will first do a stun before turning it into a daze.

Thanks for the link. There the only reference to Mez is in the line about Dazes.
So traiting for Perplexing Riddle is a bad plan when dealing with Adaptation mobs? Because they would get both the stun and daze immunity.


@Sheepscalp:
Well, technically you can use the other skill, but the CC effect won't stick on the mob. ( Hunters could still use Dazing Blow to damage a mob, but the Daze would be prevented if the mob was previously Dazed)

I think it's different for each mob, and they don't "share" their adaptation.
So you could fear one and daze the other, and do it vice versa once they snap out of it.

For gameplay it would be easier to use the same CC on the mobs so it's easier to know which one can still get which.
But with limited classes present and cooldowns this could be difficult.
Communication is key.

Originally Posted by Sheepscalp

Oh this is new...so basically the rule is, you CANT use, lets say the spell from the same spell class(in D&D terminology) such as hunters Bard's arrow (fear) and then ministrel's Invocation of Elbereth (fear) on the same mob?

Correct.

And the Adaptation buff is per each invidiual, not per a cluster of enemies.

And that's it

Yep especially the first trash fight was quite annoying and we could not have figured out the right combination of CC's, so we had to do it in kill orcs one by one style:/ 2nd group was quite nice, done it at 2nd attempt...and boss fight, even on 3rd attempt, was really quite easy, LM and Burg on giants and no stress

Thanks again for all pieces of advice you gave me/us, really helped. Looking forward to Fire/frost wing.

Originally Posted by Sheepscalp

And that's it

Yep especially the first trash fight was quite annoying and we could not have figured out the right combination of CC's, so we had to do it in kill orcs one by one style:/ 2nd group was quite nice, done it at 2nd attempt...and boss fight, even on 3rd attempt, was really quite easy, LM and Burg on giants and no stress

Thanks again for all pieces of advice you gave me/us, really helped. Looking forward to Fire/frost wing.

Nicely done, congrats!

As far as the CC goes, just start with something like a burglars riddle, then once the 30 (or 35 if traited) seconds are up, let a lore-master put a stun on it. It is complicated, and it requires a lot of communication between members of your team, especially with the people who are crowd controlling.

Keep in mind though, that some people claim to be the best, but they aren't able to complete something like this - so you all did very well!