Thread: Hunter Threat Management (ZC your thoughts are welcome)

Originally Posted by JeffF611

NO!
I can't help once again being unhappy with most of you in this community. You are your own worst enemies. I am so tired of the outspoken group of you that try to explain how Hunters are fine and then go in to elaborate details on how they reduce their threat to make Hunters ok and totally fail to understand that all this does is place you so far down in your dps output you are worthless to your group.


Djasi
A Guardian

Yea. I don't understand it either because what you say is self-evidently true. It isn't open to debate. It's a fact. The only debate is what devs can do about it.

You know, it's just occurred to me that asking for ZC to post in ANY Hunter threat is like asking for rain in Arica, Chile.

Originally Posted by Eckenbrand

You know, it's just occurred to me that asking for ZC to post in ANY Hunter threat is like asking for rain in Arica, Chile.

Lol, but in Arica (Atacama desert) it rained 0,5 mm in the whole year. At least some drops fell, but the difference is that here we get the absolute ZERO.

Originally Posted by Ingaras

The QQ isn't about pew pew-ing as hard we can (well, for some it is, but feel free to ignore them), the QQ is that we don't have the tools to actually control our threat, besides just standing around and doing nothing! How much damage a top-Hunter can do in a group is currently entirely dependent on the Guardian, Burglar and Champion in the group (if they leach/dump enough threat). And to make matters worse: there's no way to know how effective they've been doing that until you pull aggro, at which point a lot of current boss fights either kill us or turn it into a wipe.

Your suggestion of standing in close range is a nice example of the 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' situation the Hunters are in: our survivability is supposed to be balanced against our ability to stand at 40m out of harms way. We supposedly don't have an emergency heal or bubble for that reason. So now we either stand close and get battered by AoE, or stand far away and either do less damage than the other DPS-classes or pull aggro...

Oh, and while we do indeed parse the highest ST-DPS solo on a dummy, in a group setup if you want ST-DPS, bring Burglars. They do a slight bit lower DPS themselves but the RW bonus benefits everyone, which means that in total they bring more damage than a Hunter.

Yes but the increase the Burg brings is group wide.. its no different than a Captain with Telling Mark.. that increase in dps comes from all classes.. so its boosts the hunters dps as well.

I think the hunter already has some very viable threat management tools if used properly.. and I do agree that so much rides on the guardians ability to tank, champs dumping and burgs provoking... but what I want to point out is that your saying these three classes need to do their jobs extremely well so you dont have to lose any dps output from taking aggro.

A dev stated a while back that in designing raids, they wanted to include all classes having a responsibility.. be it potting random debuffs, hunters ranged tanking a boss, people running off some shock.... everyone who attends a raid has a role to fill. Just because a hunter can dps the &&&& out of a boss, doesnt mean its going to be the best thing to do all the time. When I raid on my hunter... I start in endurance most times because it generally prevents me from taking aggro from the tank, then after about 20 seconds.. ill switch to precision and go all out. If I happen to get some really nice crits and pull aggro.. Ill Beneath Notice and drop back to Endurance and give the tank some more time to build threat.

Why would you not be expected to do such a thing in a raid environment that requires 12 people to work together as a team?

I could relate it to a Hockey game where one skater on your team is far faster than the rest of your team.. he can get from one end of the ice to the other in a hurry... but if he crosses the line before the puck.. he is offsides. So not a good thing to do.

Just because the hunter class can build for incredible dps.. doesnt mean going all out is always the best thing to do. Working within the limits of what turbine has provided us based on class abilities, traits, legacies and skills is what makes us better players. Anyone can read the forums and figure out the max dps skill rotation and sit 30m+ away from the fight and hit buttons.. but it takes a smart hunter to know when to much dps is not good and when going full on is ok.

When soloing on a Hunter you can achieve dps numbers that are above any... when going into a raid where you have marks and buffs in effect.. those numbers CAN be much higher... but they dont really need to be higher.. you can afford to modify the playstyle for raids and still achieve great dps without pulling aggro.. remember your now getting about 18% more dmg gains from telling and reveal weakness marks... which means dropping to endurance doesnt really hurt your dps output when compared to the numbers you put out when soloing.

I will say that combining some of the crit mag legs with the threat down legs is a bad idea. As it is now, you are forced to go one direction or the other... and almost all hunters are using the crit mag legs on their bows... so why not just give hunters an overall reduction to threat? Thats basically the same thing as combining them.

We have 1 hunter in our kin that pulls aggro on bosses alot... he hits incredibly hard and is probably one of the best geared hunters around. As a tank its frustrating to not be able to overcome that dps and hold aggro. Ive resorted to traiting selfless defense and putting my protection on him reducing his threat by 10%. While this is only a bandage and does not correct the issue... its works for now while I attempt to find another solution to his playstyle... but in my honest opinion.. he needs to tone it down a bit because its about the raid working together.. not one person blowing stuff up

Anyhow I understand the frustrations of not being able to go full on dps while other classes (burgs and champs) can.

Maybe the devs will be nice and give some sort of dump skill... something with a decent power cost.. requirement of 6 focus and on a 2-3 min cd... or maybe include it as a blue line trait modifying intent concentration to dump some threat, could even add a legacy to modify the value (not that it would get used much lol).

I wouldnt want it to dump the threat on the tank... with three classes able to dump threat and minstrels able to increase guards threat it would become to much of an ez mode to tank..

Another thought is with champs dumping threat.... Rising Ire takes threat from a target... and Ebbing Ire gives threat to a target... if you are running with a good champ.. have them Rise off the hunter and ebb onto the tank.. its what the skill was meant to do?

Aigs

Originally Posted by ImaDecoy

Another thought is with champs dumping threat.... Rising Ire takes threat from a target... and Ebbing Ire gives threat to a target... if you are running with a good champ.. have them Rise off the hunter and ebb onto the tank.. its what the skill was meant to do?

Aigs

Rising Ire and Ebbing Ire are now the same skill, and which Ire is usable depends on which stance the Champ is in. (Fervour/Ardour = Ebbing, Glory = Rising). Even ignoring the annoyance of having to switch stances to do that, using Rising Ire will put Ire on a 20s cooldown (10s with a legacy that won't be on a DPS rune anyway, so now we've added swapping Runes as well), and as a Champ I should be close enough to the top of the threat list that if I use Rising Ire, I'm now going to be tanking until I can Ebb in 10-20s.

I do like that you acknowledge that aggro is a team effort, though.

Originally Posted by Nibenwen

Lol, but in Arica (Atacama desert) it rained 0,5 mm in the whole year. At least some drops fell, but the difference is that here we get the absolute ZERO.

So...like rain at the south pole?

Originally Posted by Boblet1

So...like rain at the south pole?

Not rain, the lack of precipitation is what makes Antartica technically a desert. 10 inches or less is the general standard applied to deserts, Antartica gets about 8 inches per year. He's more likely to post when RoR changes get more solidified, but he's probably being rather cautious about what RoR changes he posts after what happened RoI to Improved Desperate Flight. That said, hunter threat management is decidedly broken having not scaled correctly with RoI's unleashed stat caps and it needs a fix.

At least, I hope he posts soon: the hunter community is hemorrhaging good players. I stumbled across this poor fellow who persisted in keeping hunter as a main since the start of Rise of Isengard:


(picture is an actual Chilean mummy, tried to choose one less well preserved and not too graphic)

I'm keeping myself alive with my Runekeeper, Burglar and Warden.

the MAIN things to remember about managing your threat as a hunter in a group...

1) pay attention to what class is tank and stand close enough for the tank's threat leech to work.

if your tank is a guard... stay within 10 meters so whirling retaliation can steal some of your threat.

if your tank is a warden... stay within 25 meters for their multiple threat leeches to steal some of your threat.

basicly, to be on the safe side... ALWAYS STAND CLOSER THAN 10 METERS AWAY FROM YOUR TANK... and you have have a lot less trouble with aggro. at least if your tank uses their threat leeches anyhow.

2) ALWAYS WAIT FOR THE BIG RED SQUIIGGLEY to show up over the mobs head before attacking it. the little yellow squiggly only indicates that the mob saw something and is going to go hit something. that something could be The Predator, or an armadillo crawling through the brush. the mob doesn't know yet. the BIG RED SQUIGGLEY indicates that the mob is mad at a PARTICULAR someone. if you hit a mob before the red squiggley shows up, you get bonus threat.

3) start with endurance QS... believe it or not, a simple rotation of QS>PS>QS>PS>Barbed>PS>repeat can net you 900 DPS in endurance stance. (with maxxed legacy for the bleed plus barbed fury trait) on a second age bow with no crystals. you can always switch to precision after you've seen more of those red squiggleys.

4) most importantly....

PRAY TO ILLUVITAR that it all works... if ILLUVITAR doesn't bless the RNG in your favor, you're gonna pull aggro anyway, because, after all, RNG is the bane of hunter existence. no matter hunter skill. RNG rules all. you might even consider offering Illuvitar some bacon. i've tried that. it backfired. Illuvitar was too busy enjoying the bacon that he forgot to bless the RNG in my favor, and i spent the next 10 minutes twiddling my thumbs watching a greyed screen anyway.... oh well...

BACON ;-)

Originally Posted by Forgotten_Legend

the MAIN things to remember about managing your threat as a hunter in a group...

All useful and true advice. But it still boils down to 'throw away your range and Hunter's Art advantage, try not to hurt anything too bad and hope everyone else does their thing properly'. Which is precisely what we're complaining about as every other class seems to have more control over aggro than this.

When I do this what happens way more times than I like is -

Stand close. Wait for aggro to be seized. Open up with end QS barrage and crit, boom, crit and in two strides something big and bad is in your face. At least at distance I have some chance of defending myself or CC'ing it.

In group situations where it's not all by the numbers raid encounters I find I can contribute more to the group by leading a ranged rat over secondary targets.

Originally Posted by Fin.

I just want to add, now that we have started working on Orthanc T2 I am actually not convinced to get 1st age bow, I just can't imagine running any other stance then S:E if I get it.

Agree. On lightening T2 I significantly gimp DPS in favour of morale, esp on the boss. For the boss I run about 9k morale and stack tact mitigation. I switch from my Draigoch cloak to that one that has zero agi and has morale and tact mit. Sometimes I even switch to whisper draw and yet still it is not unknown for me to get agro. On the whole my kins tanks are good, but of course something can always go wrong.

In the long run I suppose it is a good thing that in T2 we have to think about our builds to fit the situation. After all I would hate to see things become too easy. however at the moment my agro management T2 is about build and gimping dps not through skills. I certainly dont run with my usual top dps rotation and build.

p.s. if I was ZC reading this thread and saw the hyperbolic posts some people have made here about scarcity, I would run a mile. the OP started a good and open discussion lets keep it that way and cut out the personal attacks

Originally Posted by Martigan

Agree. On lightening T2 I significantly gimp DPS in favour of morale, esp on the boss. For the boss I run about 9k morale and stack tact mitigation. I switch from my Draigoch cloak to that one that has zero agi and has morale and tact mit. Sometimes I even switch to whisper draw and yet still it is not unknown for me to get agro. On the whole my kins tanks are good, but of course something can always go wrong.

In the long run I suppose it is a good thing that in T2 we have to think about our builds to fit the situation. After all I would hate to see things become too easy. however at the moment my agro management T2 is about build and gimping dps not through skills. I certainly dont run with my usual top dps rotation and build.

p.s. if I was ZC reading this thread and saw the hyperbolic posts some people have made here about scarcity, I would run a mile. the OP started a good and open discussion lets keep it that way and cut out the personal attacks

If you would start doing Acid and Shadow T2 though you would notice that by switching your focus to the adds every once in a while you can go all out DPS without pulling aggro on the boss (given that you start at a reasonable pace and play smart). So it IS worth getting your FA, and being able to do amazing DPS. However, I do agree that we need some real way of lowering/maintaining our aggro. Even with all classes playing perfect there are still some cases I have to stop DPS for 5-10 secs to avoid pulling aggro (zerging Acid T2 for example, and yes 5-10 secs is a lot in that case, especially because it is during oaties and you only get about 2 min to get the boss down. But then again, you're not 'meant' to do it that way).

I tank weekly against first age bows... and I dont have much problems holding aggro from them.

I want to mention again that threat management is a team effort.

Raids are not meant to be a zerg of dps.. they are intended to be a controlled environment where 12 people work together as a team utilizing the available skills to accomplish the goal of completion. Many kinships do this successfully... you can too.

People are killing Acid t2 boss in less than 2 minutes.. so the 5 minutes allowed for challenge in Shadow t2 is easily doable.. the fight is more about controlling the adds and managing which need to be killed, cc'ed and tanked.

Common sense will eventually prevail here.

Guard runs in to aggro a boss, he gets off one skill and you fire of swift bow with focus crit modifier up.. you failed because you out-threated the guard in a matter of seconds. Turbine gave us skills and stances to use and they design the content around those skills. If you are having problems with pulling aggro.. then you need to manage your skills more efficiently for the situation.

Having a go to button to drop your threat while maintaining the highest dps in the game is asking for ez mode.

I give Kudos to Turbine for having some very balance classes that still require the player to use their head and not just mash buttons on the keyboard.

As a tank, I have a simple solution I use in all raids for hunters who cant manage their skills to assist the group in controlling aggro.. I let the boss run to them and kill them and wait for it come back. They learn fast that threat is something built.. not a button I just turn on.

Aigs

I still believe that nothing is wrong with threat dump and generation, apart from an improved version of beneath notice (like a real aggro dump) and to make the legacies actually work (still doubt they do anything) as well as to consolify them.

The reason we see this as an issue is that usually a hit from a boss means certain death.

We have to take into account though when careful threat management is really required. In usual group situations outside of instances, like the limclear gorge etc. you can do pretty well by yourself even with kiting or even tanking. Of course this does not apply in instances. A well balanced group though has enough tools to deal with everything.

As Forgotten_legend stated, if you stay within range of the buffs of guards and wardens (which is more and more required due to the distributed DMG mechanics, and the close environments we are fighting in at the moment). This can hardly be counted a disadvantage at the moment since it is more or less required right now. Especially wrdens can dump a whole lot of aggro onto themselves which is why they can tank so immensly well. You must not underestimate a champions aggro-switch. This is hugely powerful and if a champ knows it's role in a raid as well as his class it should prove no difficulty to manage threat sustainably.

Also and I do not have to mention this to fellow hunters I guess but I'll do it anyway. I usually take a sip of a drink upon the starting of a fight switch to desktop and look what's on TV for the evening. When I come back the guard usually managed to block once and i can savely start to DPS. A 10 second break usually does not hurt in most fights and I'll auto-attack the target anyway until all the buffs and debuffs are up.

Originally Posted by knockturnal98

I run with one of the best PvE/PvMP Champs on Riddermark and we are threat fighting on our Draigoch runs.

If you fight for aggro with champ who is doing arguably 50-75% more damage than you, then you got some serious threat management issues... but for your other statements I have to agree.
People should learn how to use the instruments they already got before asking for better. BN is all you need in 80% of the situations when you pull something on you. Then you got the choice to drop down to Endurance and spam QS or to continue burn focus in Precision hoping your tank will catch you before your BN timing expires... it's a team game, if you want to touch the highest DPS possible, you will need the best tank to hold aggro and the best healer to keep both of you alive, there is no case when you can burn 2k+ DPS with mediocre tank who hardly ever uses more than 3 skills.