Thread: Nerf to solo leveling

Originally Posted by Fipiara

I think one of the issues with the xp/ixp - the defenders in the skirmish. With the xp/ixp being tied to monster kills instead of the daily quest, the defenders still siphon off quite a bit of the xp unless you actively work on preventing them from touching the mobs. The xp you get from a skirmish will vary quite a bit depending on the type of skirmish as well, especially at the lower levels:

- Trouble in Tuck - yes you can keep all the mobs away from the NPCs, but at lower levels your are more unlikely to know or do this
- Siege of Gondamon - unless you let the defenders die (and now depending on the Marks, it might be best to) it's very hard to kill the waves without the NPCs interference
- Stand at Amon Sul - Love the Ranger, but it is nigh impossible to kill anything without him tagging
- Thievery & Mischief - Probably the best skirmish for xp at this level. No defenders 100% you xp. This will probably be the one that's run
- Attack at Dawn - Similar to T&M, but your mileage on this skirmish can vary depending on class/soldier
- DotPP - Another one that you consiously have to work at keeping the mobs off the NPC
- Fords of Bruinen - Hehe, lets see how many mobs you can kill before the twins tag them
- The Icy Crevasse - Yes, this is similar to Attack at Dawn, though you most likely will fare worse.

While the transition to +% xp is quite nice (and VERY nice at higher levels). For lower levels is it at all possible to take a look at NPCs siphoning the xp? This probably would go miles in the lower level solo skirmishes. Just thought I'd throw it out there.

This is completely accurate and is the most useful thing posted I've seen so far. Everyone should read this, and attempt to comprehend it, before frothing at the mouth.

Also I hope ZC or some dev sees this and finds some way to adjust it. I was noticing the huge plummet in XP gained per monster on those skirmishes where NPC's abound.

Originally Posted by Alad.

The question therefore is, when you raised the skirmish kill xp to match the 9k xp from the daily quest, how many times did you assume the player will have to run that skirmish to reach the 9k bonus? You must have made such an assumption. Did you add 9k per run? If not, how many runs?

I was just talking to a casual player who told me he logged in everyday and did all the skirmishes once (he's F2P, so not that many to do). Will he be able to get his usual daily xp from the time he has to spend in lotro with your modifications?


I did look and compare. The soldier level up costs are pretty much the same. I.e. they're now a lot more expensive to level up compared to what you get from running a skirmish.


One other question about those level up costs. They're variable, depending on player level versus soldier level. If someone never levels up their soldier beyound his level -10, and only adds the last 10 levels when he reaches the cap, he'll end up spending a LOT less marks on the soldier, than someone who always keeps their soldier at their level or even a few levels above as they're levelling up. So, when you reimburse the marks in the soldier with that store scroll, do you reimburse the real amount spent on that soldier or do you make some kind of assumption? And if so, what is that assumption?

You either are misinformed or just feel like lying.

I have been grinding on my lvl 54 hunter to get enough points to get that ratted rune of winged dominance and it was before the update almost 3000 skirmish points IRC... somewhere about 2,900..

Well after the update not only did my measily 900 I had accrued from before the update translate into 900 of the new skirmish marks, the Rune of winged dominance price was now only 1045..... I was able to buy it after running two more skirmishs. Meaning I made about 70 marks in each one.

Can't say anything about XP, since I haven't run skirmishes on my sub-L75 chars lately, but most definitely I get a 50% reduction in iXP from every mob tagged by a friendly skirmish NPC. Considering that the total amount of XP and iXP was upped to match the pre-U5 values, this translates into grand total 50% loss of iXP from skirmishes with friendly NPCs.

Also, someone here (or in another thread) mentioned relics drops... The IF put me in Gondamon last night, and one of the encounter bosses dropped a T1 (yes, T1) fused relic. At L75. Nothing from two skirmishes today (Prancing Pony and Rift). This doesn't look like a good compensation to me, so far.

Seems like with more input from players we are finding that the main reason for the exp drop comes from the NPCs that siphon experience away from you, that is something the devs need to fix right away, NPCs should not steal experience from you. If so then we the players are going to run only those skirmishes where there are no NPCs involved, again defeating the purpose of skirmishes.

Originally Posted by Arachnella

Can't say anything about XP, since I haven't run skirmishes on my sub-L75 chars lately, but most definitely I get a 50% reduction in iXP from every mob tagged by a friendly skirmish NPC. Considering that the total amount of XP and iXP was upped to match the pre-U5 values, this translates into grand total 50% loss of iXP from skirmishes with friendly NPCs.

Also, someone here (or in another thread) mentioned relics drops... The IF put me in Gondamon last night, and one of the encounter bosses dropped a T1 (yes, T1) fused relic. At L75. Nothing from two skirmishes today (Prancing Pony and Rift). This doesn't look like a good compensation to me, so far.

For Relics - they are dropping from both LTs & the final chest (I haven't seen one yet on an encounter). I've seen T3 relics from LTs and T1-3 drop from the final chest/boss. I'd guess that if you run a T3 skirmish the drop rate on these would be higher (placing the extra special mark drops).

Originally Posted by Kantaryo

If so then we the players are going to run only those skirmishes where there are no NPCs involved, again defeating the purpose of skirmishes.

That is, if by 'we the players' you mean 'we the players that want to use skirmishes to level'. But in that case, most such people would likely opt to run the one or two skirms they feel give the most XP anyway, in the interest of maximizing their efficiency.

On the other hand, most skirmishes where you have NPC support are defense skirmishes. And in that case, most of the monsters spawn a distance away and run toward you. Thus, one alternative would be to intercept them before they aggro the NPC. And in that case, the extra XP would basically be rewarding you for fighting without NPC support.


On a side note, I am a bit disappointed that skirmishes have turned into such lucrative XP mines that people forgo quest content. Each to their own, of course - they're certainly free to play however they see fit. But I remember when skirmishes were first coming out, how they were initially explained as being more of a sidebar to the main system of landscape questing - something like a minigame you could enjoy while waiting on a raid to form, or just to take a break from running around doing everyone's chores. As I recall, it was stated emphatically that they were not meant to replace the primary game experience, so their rewards weren't as good as what you could get by questing or even crafting. But over time, as the game changed and evolved, I guess that angle did as well.

Hey guess what people did before skirms they quested to level, level all the way to 50 etc....now not trolling but just stating a fact there is so much to do and its so easy to level anymore i could be 75 on any class within 2 weeks np.

Yeah it sucks but move on and find some other way to level

No, is not that the skirmish is the main thing, it is not, I did the dailies and moved into quest immediately, now I have to waste more time in skirmishes than before, so now I am doing less quest and more skirmishes, we the players dont want that, you may have few players who really want the reach top level quick, but it is not the majority. The majority uses the skirmishes just to obtain marks and some drops so we can improve our soldier/protector/etc.

Originally Posted by Kantaryo

Seems like with more input from players we are finding that the main reason for the exp drop comes from the NPCs that siphon experience away from you, that is something the devs need to fix right away, NPCs should not steal experience from you. If so then we the players are going to run only those skirmishes where there are no NPCs involved, again defeating the purpose of skirmishes.

That is also just one facter that can affect the ixp/xp in the skirmish. Among on the issues that will affect whether xp is +/- for you:

- Defenders "taging" mobs
- VIP rested xp
- DP Perk / Store Tome
- Pre-order +25% stone
- # of mobs in the skirmish (comparing a Rescue in NG to a Trouble in Tuckborough. The number of mobs makes a big difference)

I'd definitely admit that a F2P player L25 solo with no rested xp in "Stand at Amon Sul" will see less xp than before and much less xp than a VIP player with rested xp, destiny perk, Pre-order stone running a Trouble in Tuckborough while keeping defenders from every mob.

Originally Posted by Jadzi

On a side note, I am a bit disappointed that skirmishes have turned into such lucrative XP mines that people forgo quest content. Each to their own, of course - they're certainly free to play however they see fit. But I remember when skirmishes were first coming out, how they were initially explained as being more of a sidebar to the main system of landscape questing - something like a minigame you could enjoy while waiting on a raid to form, or just to take a break from running around doing everyone's chores. As I recall, it was stated emphatically that they were not meant to replace the primary game experience, so their rewards weren't as good as what you could get by questing or even crafting. But over time, as the game changed and evolved, I guess that angle did as well.

I agree as well.

Especially with the large jump in the daily xp bonus with RoI and the level cap increase, skirmishes in 20s->low 30s were just so insanely lucrative in leveling that made them hard to compete with questing, in terms of time invested.

Originally Posted by Jadzi

On a side note, I am a bit disappointed that skirmishes have turned into such lucrative XP mines that people forgo quest content.

That's what I would call "DDOization of LOTRO". Since the first introduction of skirmishes into the game it was getting more and more clear that the developer's focus is strongly on them, to the detriment of the landscape quests. I find it very ironical (and disappointing) that over the last 2-3 years LOTRO has been progressively moving towards deeper compartmentalization and instancing of the world, while initially a heavily instanced GW is moving towards the open world GW2. But this is a topic for a different discussion.

People are so riled up about skirmish "nerfs". I've read all 4 pages, and the majority of them dissatisfied with the changes. IMO there are valid points on both sides.

I wish people were this vocal when "they" removed the Passive Accuracy Skill.

Originally Posted by Kantaryo

Seems like with more input from players we are finding that the main reason for the exp drop comes from the NPCs that siphon experience away from you, that is something the devs need to fix right away, NPCs should not steal experience from you. If so then we the players are going to run only those skirmishes where there are no NPCs involved, again defeating the purpose of skirmishes.

I know I'm in the minority here, but I'm actually really excited to read about skirmishes giving less XP... I'm one of the people who's waiting for the XP disabler to become available, and I've done very few skirmishes up till now because I'm already out-leveling things left and right.

To those who took the time to give me bad reputation for my posts, "I love you too and Merry Christmas to you as well".... Feliz Navidad amigos.

Originally Posted by RomeoJGuy

You either are misinformed or just feel like lying.

???
Are you ok, mate?
Should we call an ambulance?

Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

As mentioned above, it shouldn't be much of a relative shift as you are implying. I'll look into this, but I'm fairly certain I even made some tweaks to reduce the average play time a rank requires!

Upon looking into it, Rank costs are indeed too high. Skirmish Rank traits use different formulas then other item purchases in the Skirmish barter, and the relative adjustments we made when changing from SM to Marks was not fully applied to Ranks. I was tipped off by the laser focus on Soldier ranks being punitive, while no one seemed to be talking about any of the item rewards being nerfed

Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

Upon looking into it, Rank costs are indeed too high. Skirmish Rank traits use different formulas then other item purchases in the Skirmish barter, and the relative adjustments we made when changing from SM to Marks was not fully applied to Ranks. I was tipped off by the laser focus on Soldier ranks being punitive, while no one seemed to be talking about any of the item rewards being nerfed

Thanks for the follow thru Z.

Now, the fix will be in before noon tomorrow...right?

/grin

Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

As mentioned in the dev diary, the bonus XP Dailies gave were rolled into a global buff for monster XP (and even IXP) rewards in all Skirmishes. As a % buff to XP, they are now a little less potent at low level, but much more potent at high level. As a whole, soloing in Skirmishes to level cap is easier then before.



The bonus XP, rep and Marks dailies granted are still all present. The first two apear EVERY time you run a Skirmish, no longer gated by a daily. The Marks do require using Instance Finder, but the IF bonus also applies to Medallion (and Seal) acquisition. Plus, you can now play the same Skirmish as many times as you want in a row and be gaining XP/IXP/Rep similar to the old Daily bonus you could only get once.



It is important to realize that Marks appear at a lower rate then Skirmish Marks did, but the prices are similarly lower. We took this opportunity to cut back on some of the inflation effecting Skirmish prices and drop rates. If you needed 1000 SM to get a reward and acquired them 100 an hour, it's would be roughly the same if you acquired 50 Marks an hour but the reward only cost 500.



As mentioned above, it shouldn't be much of a relative shift as you are implying. I'll look into this, but I'm fairly certain I even made some tweaks to reduce the average play time a rank requires!

You know I'm highly critical of Turbine, ZC, but I'm not a cruel person. I also used to love this game. Please don't take this the wrong way, but from this post and everything else you've posted about the IF, all I can ask is - have you ever actually played LoTRO yourself? With regular character doing the regular levelling route, and not with an indestructible avatar, I mean.

Because you seem very out-of-touch with what's actually happening in the game, as opposed to in your theories. Again - not a personal attack, but you don't sound like you know how the game works for us average joes. And that's created a huge mess - and a lot of ill-will.

Originally Posted by Fipiara

With the adjustment to the xp, I would expect the xp to be lower (not sure how much) than the daily quest for lower levels and significantly higher at higher levels, actually scaling so that the reward is more appropriate for the level. The extra xp will also be available regardless of the # of times you run a skirmish in a day, which is a boost in the lowest level ranges.

After playing a few toons at various levels I feel I should qualify my previous statement. This seems to be the case if you have rested XP. For characters/players that do not have rested xp, this change is MUCH more noticable even at higher levels.

Originally Posted by Jadzi

"solo leveling"

Er... not to be pedantic, but pretty much all leveling is solo these days, no? The Epic is solo, the landscape quests are solo, pretty much everything except the various raid/instance clusters are geared for solo players. To the extent that grouping is entirely optional in most cases, and even blocked on occasion by solo-only quest instances.

As has been pointed out, the XP has been moved, not removed. But even if it had been completely cut, there would still be so many avenues for leveling, and most of them quite expedient. If all you're doing is running the same handful of skirmishes over and over to level, you're missing out on a wealth of story and landscape.

it's poor game management to offer a reasonable and fun choice to players and then later take it away and misappropriate it because the previous content exists for that purpose.

Originally Posted by Jadzi

On a side note, I am a bit disappointed that skirmishes have turned into such lucrative XP mines that people forgo quest content.

I hate quests.

Seriously. The only time I actively do the quests is when I want a cosmetic item or a new skirmish that I can only unlock or get through questing.

Originally Posted by Branthil

People are so riled up about skirmishes "nerfs". I've read all 4 pages, and the majority of them dissatisfied with the changes. IMO there are valid points on both sides.

I wish people were this vocal when "they" removed the Passive Accuracy Skill.

People in beta were very vocal about any number of bad things - like removal of accuracy passives, and hey - completely broken wardens.

There was no open-ended survey at the end of this beta. Turbine chose to do what it did. Don't blame the testers, please, they *tried*. But how the game is developed is ultimately in Turbine's hands, and they've chosen to ignore customer feedback.

Do any of you realize how much this game has changed since closed Beta? Skirms were never intended to be used to level but more for all the other goodies end of story.

Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

Upon looking into it, Rank costs are indeed too high. Skirmish Rank traits use different formulas then other item purchases in the Skirmish barter, and the relative adjustments we made when changing from SM to Marks was not fully applied to Ranks. I was tipped off by the laser focus on Soldier ranks being punitive, while no one seemed to be talking about any of the item rewards being nerfed

Finally! Now when are you fixing this?

Not that I read the whole thread, but I have a slightly different perspective...

Been running the skirms for marks and decided to get a few pieces of Helegrod (65). Been at 66 for a bit and I am glad the xp is low since by the time I get the marks I need, I would have out leveled the armor!

(ok only slightly facetious here)

Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

I was tipped off by the laser focus on Soldier ranks being punitive

Tipped off? People have only been saying that for what, 2-3 years? Don't get me wrong, I'm glad you guys are finally looking at soldier ranks costs, but the fact that this thing needs to be 'tipped off' is a bit telling. I echo what another poster asked above. Have you actually tried to assign yourself the average marks that a typical level 75 character has, then deduct from that amount the average spending used by a 75 on things like scrolls and such, and use the remaining marks to level a soldier or two to see how far you can get and whether said soldiers are useable in a 75 skirmish? If not yourself, has anyone? Has anyone at Turbine before you ever asked themselves "Is it fair to charge 350+ marks for a 4 point increase in armor or 6 points of Offense?"

I dont think she meant solo leveleing but rather the pre-U5 skirmish system, that right now is ver much nerfed, not to confusse with the IF.

Originally Posted by LEGENDofALL

Do any of you realize how much this game has changed since closed Beta? Skirms were never intended to be used to level but more for all the other goodies end of story.

Up until free to play, this may have been true (I don't want to guess on dev's intentions, because f2p was being planned long before it was announced).

After that game changer, skirmishes were most definitely integrated into the levelling process, and it was the devs who tied so many essential end-game things into skirmishes, not the players.

My low level toon is leveling solely via Skirmishes, and doing so far faster then I ever could have done before U5. My level 75 toon is pulling in effective purchasing marks faster then I ever could before. And my level 49 toon who just hit 51 doing mostly Skirmishes is also doing better then before. Part of that is because I'm not silly enough to think you have to have an on-level soldier to be effective in Skirmishes. Part of it is because I know when Finder is effective, and when Join is a better method -- which doesn't take rocket science to figure out, though it seems to have eluded a number of forum posters.

Originally Posted by nelar

My low level toon is leveling solely via Skirmishes, and doing so far faster then I ever could have done before U5. My level 75 toon is pulling in effective purchasing marks faster then I ever could before. And my level 49 toon who just hit 51 doing mostly Skirmishes is also doing better then before. Part of that is because I'm not silly enough to think you have to have an on-level soldier to be effective in Skirmishes. Part of it is because I know when Finder is effective, and when Join is a better method -- which doesn't take rocket science to figure out, though it seems to have eluded a number of forum posters.

We're all ears.

Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

Upon looking into it, Rank costs are indeed too high. Skirmish Rank traits use different formulas then other item purchases in the Skirmish barter, and the relative adjustments we made when changing from SM to Marks was not fully applied to Ranks.

Has there been any more news on this? Any idea when we can expect a fix?

Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus
Upon looking into it, Rank costs are indeed too high. Skirmish Rank traits use different formulas then other item purchases in the Skirmish barter, and the relative adjustments we made when changing from SM to Marks was not fully applied to Ranks.

Originally Posted by wolfganghammersmith

Has there been any more news on this? Any idea when we can expect a fix?

Yes, please answer this question. All my uncapped toons that are elegible to do skirmishes are sitting idle until this issue is fixed.

I always thought the EXP given during the Skirmishes for lower levels was just too high, and thus avoided them because it made doing deeds I had missed boring. I prefer thinking that I am earning something than doing one skirmish a level. The leveling for lower levels was just too quick to over all the deeds per area. I never complained about it though, because I enjoy questing myself, but I agree its a sad situation when something enjoyed is suddenly revoked because the company didn't realize it served as a distraction to using the actual product, quests. What really saddened me was they also made the rewards less, because I was using skirmishes for a bit of gold here and there.

I really wish Turbine would focus on improving their current products rather then revoke the ones that make us happy in order for us to sell more quest packs; I really think this was a bit of a scheme to get our money. Note, I still say they (Turbine) are not as bad as other games which are 'pay out of your (explicit) if you'd like to win the game.' But I do think they are scheming here and there to pay their overhead and CEO salaries.