Thread: Update 5: Instance Cluster Dev Diary Feedback

In this update we have a total of 5 instances -- three small fellowships, one fellowship, and one raid. There are 15 boss fights, two difficulty tiers, 10 challenges, over 75 new monsters, 250 new skills, 500 new effects, 200 new chest drops, and 54 new armour sets! Read more in today's Developer Diary from Joe 'jwbarry' Barry and post your comments here!

Looks great! Nice to see gear upgrading being introduced.

250 new skills

I don't seem to have any of these on my characters. Is there an error? Seems I should have about 10 new skills per class?

Originally Posted by Logical86

I don't seem to have any of these on my characters. Is there an error? Seems I should have about 10 new skills per class?

Monsters have new skills, not players.

Great dev diary, will definitely begin digging into the new instances tonight!

First, I can't state this enough, thank you JWBarry for your work on OD. That Raid was truly epic and awesome. The best in LOTRO imo. Your outstanding work restored my faith in LOTRO endgame content. As a result, I can't wait to hit the new RoI Instance Cluster and take on the new Raid.

I know there are a lot of lore-hounds that have their panties in a bunch because we get to fight against Sarumen in the new Raid. I for one am thrilled to get the opportunity. I haven't seen the new content yet, but based on the Diary, I am happy to see the Lore playing a huge part in motivating the story behind the cluster.

The new rewards look awesome too. Love the idea of the necklace improving as you go, and am very happy to see a variety of gear sets and choices for min/maxing.

Good times appear to be ahead for us Raiders. Orthanc looks to be full of fun.

JWBarry, I agree, your work in OD was fantastic and game-changing for Lotro. Looking forward to this new design. Sounds like much fun. Pah to the minor bugs. Those of us who completed Draigoch T2 in the first week will prove that they are not a big deal in Update 5 either.

And I was inspired to play Demon's Souls and Dark Souls because of it. The approach, "you will die, but you will learn not to" works well. Masterable and not luck-based content is great for the Raiding community.

OD was awesome. I'm crossing my fingers that Orthanc is as comparable.

From what I have played so far, the new cluster seems great! Great graphics, cool looking bosses and challenging fights. The one complaint I have is this. If you leave the instance to repair, it resets the quest. If it said that in the quest, I wouldnt have left, but it does not. When u get to the last boss and realize u have to start all over again, there is nothing more frustrating. I hated it when this was done with North Cotton Farms, and I am very disappointed to see this again. If you don't want players to leave an instance and come back, then you should state it. Unless this is a bug,

Overall tho, great new stuff!

A 5 seal reward for the 6-mans... when you need 180 (ish) just for the cheapest of the new armour pieces seems... kinda low.

The new instances are WAY to easy, its daft how easy the 6man is, any group could do it, we strolled in last night for 1st time with a messy grp, had a champ tanking and cappy done most heals and it was so god damn easy. I rem SG and Temple and foro and the old moria runs on the 1st time, was alot of fun learning all the fights and tactics and taking a few goes to get it all sorted, now every run is on farm for my kin and its not even 24hrs since release, turbine what the hell is wrong with you

Originally Posted by EvernightsNo1Player

The new instances are WAY to easy, its daft how easy the 6man is, any group could do it, we strolled in last night for 1st time with a messy grp, had a champ tanking and cappy done most heals and it was so god damn easy. I rem SG and Temple and foro and the old moria runs on the 1st time, was alot of fun learning all the fights and tactics and taking a few goes to get it all sorted, now every run is on farm for my kin and its not even 24hrs since release, turbine what the hell is wrong with you

Go and do the lightning boss challenge mode (don't wory you will have to, it's bugged apparently) in the tower, that should brighten your day.

Originally Posted by EvernightsNo1Player

The new instances are WAY to easy, its daft how easy the 6man is, any group could do it, we strolled in last night for 1st time with a messy grp, had a champ tanking and cappy done most heals and it was so god damn easy. I rem SG and Temple and foro and the old moria runs on the 1st time, was alot of fun learning all the fights and tactics and taking a few goes to get it all sorted, now every run is on farm for my kin and its not even 24hrs since release, turbine what the hell is wrong with you

We went into the Foundry T1 yesterday with Guard, RK, RK and got the first boss to 100k

We thought, hey, these could be some more difficult instances, nice..then we realised it is a 6-man

I mean, we played together the first time, and 1 or 2 more tries and we would have killed him

Originally Posted by Fudoshin

Go and do the lightning boss challenge mode (don't wory you will have to, it's bugged apparently) in the tower, that should brighten your day.

done all the instances T2 within few hours of patch being out, and its not a brag by any means anyone and i mean literally anyone could do them with any grp, and some might say well casuals will be happy who wants to wipe, but it just means that there is no challenge or learning curve, all the runs are simples and your already bored of them. I can only assume turbine are catering to kids now or something.

I wish to say great work to the story writers of the Epic line. That was a very well thought out, well written story.

As for the new bosses I have run into so far, they are difficult and a challenge. A couple seem a little over the top right now, but I am still holding my opinion on those right now. But the fights are interesting and fun to me right now. I guess that means I do not know the secert to the bosses yet.


The IF is a real pain. As of this date I have not been placed into a balanced 3 man yet. A tank a Burg and a Hunter do not make a good three man group where healing is required. Also a RK that is traited for DPS does not make a healer for a 3 man either. So works need to be done there.

I would say the Support role needs to be defined better. It seems like I am always in a Support + Defense + DPS 3 man. Not working. I would also suggest a new forum for comments on the IF.

This is the first time I feel the store has been pushed too much. I think the finance folks need to take a step back or you are going to start losing folks in the next few months.

Overall I would say the update is enjoyable.

Good work everyone!!!!

Originally Posted by EvernightsNo1Player

done all the instances T2 within few hours of patch being out, and its not a brag by any means anyone and i mean literally anyone could do them with any grp, and some might say well casuals will be happy who wants to wipe, but it just means that there is no challenge or learning curve, all the runs are simples and your already bored of them. I can only assume turbine are catering to kids now or something.

It's not only not bragging, it's not true (unless you didn't read and are talking about 3/6 mans only), why make such silly comments?? some of them might not even be possible currently but at any rate, there is certainly a very solid learning curve in the raid, OD is fairly simple by comparison from what I have seen.

Originally Posted by Fudoshin

It's not only not bragging, it's not true (unless you didn't read and are talking about 3/6 mans only), why make such silly comments?? some of them might not even be possible currently but at any rate, there is certainly a very solid learning curve in the raid, OD is fairly simple by comparison from what I have seen.

I assumed you would use basic logic and figure instances didnt include the raid, we were discussing the 6 and 3man runs and just simpler to call them instances, dont know anyone who talks about instances and doing instances and are referring to 12 or 24man raids.

You asked what the hell was wrong with Turbine because they hadn't created any content you consider challenging, I pointed out there is plenty of challenge if that's what you want, just because you consider 3-6 man instances too easy doesn't mean Turbine hasn't created a challenge. The logic of assuming I would only talk about what you found easy when you were looking for challenge is pretty illogical, and just because Evernightsno1player might find stuff easy doesn't mean everyone else will, I know many people are having trouble doing Fangorns Edge challenge.

Main point, rather than whine that easy stuff (3-6 man is generally expected to be fairly simple) is too easy, go do something difficult as I suggested, then swing the e-peen around at Turbine asking for something tougher.

Ok so the raid. We are up to Phase 5, yes you read that correctly, phase 5 of Saruman. 11 Sarumans area attacking and punting you off of Orthanc? Whoever thought this was going to be fun for players? I literally put the Benny Hill theme on in the background as we get murdered. And this is Tier 1. The level of rage by everyone in the group as yet another group of Sarumans appears is incredible. Our vent is filled expletives. I mean we have people who are generally calm screaming at each other. Some of us are convinced that the rings are ACTUALLY twisting our minds in real life.

Originally Posted by Clover

In this update we have a total of 5 instances -- three small fellowships, one fellowship, and one raid. There are 15 boss fights, two difficulty tiers, 10 challenges, over 75 new monsters, 250 new skills, 500 new effects, 200 new chest drops, and 54 new armour sets!

/rage
Can you count the number of bugs please?
/endrage

Originally Posted by jwbarry

We continued to push on enhancing and differentiating our difficulty tiers. Tier 1 remains focused on the casual pug player, offering a path for anyone to get in the instances and play. Tier 2 retains its target on kinships and established groups. Finally, Challenge is still for those that like to push the boundaries of their groups. With Isengard we focused on ensuring that each new level was noticeable and significant. Going up a difficulty Tier should come with an impact on gameplay.

Maybe I don't understand this game very well, but I cannot see how Tier 1 of the Tower of Orthanc raid can be completed by group of casual pug players. Just one wing, the acid wing, was a nightmare in the one run I tried, and I am told that this is the easiest wing.

Joe: Ultimately we want people in the largest group size and hardest difficulty that we can nudge them up towards. Ideally players are thinking, "Sweet! We handled a three-man on Tier II and we totally almost finished the challenge, and that six-man over there, from what we've heard, isn't too bad. Let's see if we can find a couple buddies." Our goal is to get people to push a little bit outside their comfort zone and explore and find a little bit more of the game.

Jared: Or the "Punch You in the Face" meter.

We came, we saw, we got punched in the face.

Just some brief feedback on the 3-mans so far. Overall, I think it needs some balancing. That and the instance armor sets are too pricy - those should be priced either similar or slightly less than the Dragioch set (option for either medallions or seals but not requiring both).

Fangorn T1 feels about right and isn't too difficult to complete with a pug. T2 also feels about right from a challenge standpoint with a pre-made balanced group.

DU T1 is just ridiculous. To date, it's still the only one I haven't finished. To be clear, I've attempted this one only in groups with a Captain as the healer, me as the tank with cappedhigh mitigations & 15k morale, and a champ/hunter. The end boss AOE is just flat out ridiculous in damage. It would be one thing to allow a 10 second "tell" on the maneuver so you have a chance to get the heck out of there, but the way it is now is just plain difficult for difficulty sake - no challenge other than praying you don't get stunned right before the AOE happens (good luck with that). I would recommend to Turbine, either add a longer "tell" or reduce the AOE on T1, possibly both to make it completable by a pug. T2 is probably just fine.

Pits on T1/T2 are a bit high on the AOE side but are generally a bit harder than Fangorn.

I agree with DU Tier1. Its just a bit stupid to sit there looking at a stopwatch while chewing down 450k with 1 and a half DPS classes. And while Tier2 is faster, any DPS class in there will be sidelined for almost the entire fight.

Originally Posted by dietlbomb

Maybe I don't understand this game very well, but I cannot see how Tier 1 of the Tower of Orthanc raid can be completed by group of casual pug players. Just one wing, the acid wing, was a nightmare in the one run I tried, and I am told that this is the easiest wing. ...

I believe this is a bit of a misnomer. You can "pug" it with "casual" players, but not beat a Tier1 ring with too many people without decent experience in group play. So "pugging it" rather means assemble a random team of group players, but not a group of random players.

Originally Posted by Aelgerion

Just some brief feedback on the 3-mans so far. Overall, I think it needs some balancing. That and the instance armor sets are too pricy - those should be priced either similar or slightly less than the Dragioch set (option for either medallions or seals but not requiring both).

Fangorn T1 feels about right and isn't too difficult to complete with a pug. T2 also feels about right from a challenge standpoint with a pre-made balanced group.

DU T1 is just ridiculous. To date, it's still the only one I haven't finished. To be clear, I've attempted this one only in groups with a Captain as the healer, me as the tank with cappedhigh mitigations & 15k morale, and a champ/hunter. The end boss AOE is just flat out ridiculous in damage. It would be one thing to allow a 10 second "tell" on the maneuver so you have a chance to get the heck out of there, but the way it is now is just plain difficult for difficulty sake - no challenge other than praying you don't get stunned right before the AOE happens (good luck with that). I would recommend to Turbine, either add a longer "tell" or reduce the AOE on T1, possibly both to make it completable by a pug. T2 is probably just fine.

Pits on T1/T2 are a bit high on the AOE side but are generally a bit harder than Fangorn.

I have 2-manned DU T1 boss with my champ-tank and a mini, didn't seem too hard, just have to be aware when to run from his aoe (I just use the red buff he gets just before going into aoe). You can do the sunlight on T1 troll if you want to speed it up.

I haven't tried pits T2 yet, but T1 felt really interesting. T1 fangorn is too easy, any group with a good champion can get through (hell I know that a good champion can solo it). I like T2 fangorn, requires decent group balance and skill.

Originally Posted by Traur

I have 2-manned DU T1 boss with my champ-tank and a mini, didn't seem too hard, just have to be aware when to run from his aoe (I just use the red buff he gets just before going into aoe). You can do the sunlight on T1 troll if you want to speed it up.

I haven't tried pits T2 yet, but T1 felt really interesting. T1 fangorn is too easy, any group with a good champion can get through (hell I know that a good champion can solo it). I like T2 fangorn, requires decent group balance and skill.

Ya, I think the problem I'm having with the T1 DU boss is that I always seem to have a Captain as a healer - tough to find a mini/rk on through the instance finder. They just can't heal enough through the spike damage - perhaps they aren't spec'ed properly for it but I'm not an expert there. With a good mini/rk healing me, it would probably be easier.

My only consideration for it is I thought 3 man's were intended to have a wider group variety - forcing you to have a healer just to get through is a bit off in my opinion.

I agree that DU T1 is a little too tough for the instance finder's design goal (tank or healer: pick one). In my opionion, it should be doable by a a capt/hunter/hunter group with all players having quest reward gear and only passing familiarity with the strategy. (A captain who signs up as a healer should be traited for it, though.)

I suggest they lower that troll's damage output by a lot in Tier 1.

Originally Posted by jwbarry

We continued to push on enhancing and differentiating our difficulty tiers. Tier 1 remains focused on the casual pug player

Hey jwbarry,

Go ahead and gather up 12 random level 75s. Give them Orthanc locks 1 through 4 and send them up to see Saruman. Now, lock these 12 random people up there for the next 6 hours and observe the result at the end. Want to guess whether you have succeeded in your goal of having "Tier 1 remains focused on the casual pug player"?

Honestly, don't take my words for it. Offer people some Turbine Points or in-game gold or whatever and test this several times. And please stick the results in front of the person who designed Saruman's wing and buy him a clue. Please remind him that the object of an instance in the game is to HAVE FUN. When you have things that border on the ridiculous you are not doing your job.

And when you are done with my suggestion, sit down and take a look at the loot. Saruman's wing T1 is THE most difficult T1 instance in the entire game. Is the time spent, deaths received, repair bills paid and pots bought, and the efforts expanded to learn and to persevere, justify the INSULTING loot from that one single chest? How would the devs like to work and make ROI, only to get paid 200 pesos?

Lady Dena,

i really think you are overreacting. Shure Saruman T1 isn't easy and I don't want to tell you how hard it is on TIer 2 :P
But I know PUG who do Saruman t1 every week just because their own Raid didn't finished the instance due to time. They search for people, need a few tries and kill it.

Well, I am convinced you just don't use the best tactic. There are plenty of tactis you could use on Tier 1, you are not in a hurry there. IN T2 you are (30min) but the normal mode is rather easy if every knows what to do. If people can't drink a Lhinestad Draught in the right time it's not Turbines fault that you die. If people fly down the tower, it's not Turbines fault, since the have marks for everything that happens on top of the tower.

I can only propose to see the mistakes your group does, with open eyes and don't just complain because some of your group say it's impossible. Well, 90% of the hints in this Forum about Orthanc Tactics is proven wrong and still some people on my Server think this is the only right way. Well, that's just innocent. Don't believe in anything said , proof it yourself and you will be rewarded!

Greetings, Yock

Originally Posted by Sinnergy

i really think you are overreacting.
Well, I am convinced you just don't use the best tactic.
I can only propose to see the mistakes your group does, with open eyes and don't just complain because some of your group say it's impossible.

Please re-read my post. Nowhere did I say I didn't complete T1, so all that extra assumptions were needless preconceptions in your mind. In fact I was talking about the loot at the end so that would have implied that I at least got there to comment on it. My assessments on its difficulty weren't based on overreactions, bad tactics or mistakes made by my group. Instead they were based on an understanding of the T1 design of the instance and knowing full well what an AVERAGE pug is or isn't usually capable of. My assertion is still that if you pick up 12 random level 75 people and lock them in Saruman's wing for 6 hours, I know where exactly I would place my bets on the result. The wonderful thing is, you don't need to take my words for it, you don't even need to believe me. Get your raid locks up to Saruman, form a team of 12 random people, you drop group and let them try it and they can tell you the result after 6 hours. Do this several times for a larger sample size and share with us the result of how successful a true pug can be at that instance. jwbarry claimed that T1 was made with "CASUAL PUG PLAYER" in mind, Saruman's wing clearly failed that guideline miserably.

I have to agree on DU Tier 1 criticism.

I'm a casual player and managed Fangorn and Pits quite fine, even completed Foundry Tier 2 with a good and experienced group that adviced me a bit on it.

But I can't seem to complete DU. I tried 8 times and wiped every time.

I find the AoE damage of Dargnakh undoable - he stuns me usually, and then I can't get out of there in time, he wipes me, rinse repeat. That is pointless. How much damage does the guy do? I think it must be in the 12-15k range in one go :/

Please, reduce this insane battle. It may be that some super-experienced uber-players get bored with it, but that's what Tier 3 would be for IMHO.

My 2cents.

Originally Posted by LadyDena

Please re-read my post. Nowhere did I say I didn't complete T1, so all that extra assumptions were needless preconceptions in your mind. In fact I was talking about the loot at the end so that would have implied that I at least got there to comment on it. My assessments on its difficulty weren't based on overreactions, bad tactics or mistakes made by my group. Instead they were based on an understanding of the T1 design of the instance and knowing full well what an AVERAGE pug is or isn't usually capable of. My assertion is still that if you pick up 12 random level 75 people and lock them in Saruman's wing for 6 hours, I know where exactly I would place my bets on the result. The wonderful thing is, you don't need to take my words for it, you don't even need to believe me. Get your raid locks up to Saruman, form a team of 12 random people, you drop group and let them try it and they can tell you the result after 6 hours. Do this several times for a larger sample size and share with us the result of how successful a true pug can be at that instance. jwbarry claimed that T1 was made with "CASUAL PUG PLAYER" in mind, Saruman's wing clearly failed that guideline miserably.

Just because a raid is Tier 1 doesn't mean it should be beaten in one day by casual players. You still have to figure out how to do it. If casual players don't want to figure it out on their own they can read the strats and watch the videos provided by those who have beaten it already. There are pug runs of Saruman on my server lead by someone who has beaten it before. If it takes all the hardcore raiders weeks or months to beat Tier 2 challenge, I don't think it's a big problem if casuals do the same with Tier 1. It's a complex raid with a lot of things happening and that's what makes it fun.

Originally Posted by Link64

Just because a raid is Tier 1 doesn't mean it should be beaten in one day by casual players. You still have to figure out how to do it. If casual players don't want to figure it out on their own they can read the strats and watch the videos provided by those who have beaten it already. There are pug runs of Saruman on my server lead by someone who has beaten it before. If it takes all the hardcore raiders weeks or months to beat Tier 2 challenge, I don't think it's a big problem if casuals do the same with Tier 1. It's a complex raid with a lot of things happening and that's what makes it fun.

If casuals were to do the same, they wouldn't be casuals. PUGs don't spend weeks learning an instance. They break up after a couple hours when some dude ragequits, or someone has to take care of the kids or walk the dog (and that's on a good night).

I understand that there is an argument that T1 shouldn't be easy, or be completable in an evening by a green pug, but I'd also argue that T1 is not as easy as advertised. When the devs say that an instance is designed for the casual pug player, I assume they mean that 11 people who a) don't raid regularly, b) don't know each other, and c) haven't completed the raid before can recruit a leader, read some strategies, and complete a few wings (or even the whole raid) in an evening. Extrapolating from the few Orthanc pugs I have been a part of, I don't see it happening.

Does this mean that T1 Orthanc isn't fun? I have heard that it's a blast. Especially for people who like that style of gameplay. I just haven't had too much fun in there yet (in my admittedly few attempts to beat the acid wing). I'm a pretty casual grouper. I like to run the odd instance now and again. Beating tough bosses isn't my goal in the game, but I like running though dungeons with other players. I think the Orthanc raid is tuned for a style of game play that has more room for experimentation and learning, and much more tolerance for failure, for players who don't mind delaying their victory as long as they learn from their mistakes.

The sense of accomplishment you get from learning from your mistakes and beating a tough boss just isn't there when your group blows up and your (now-nonexistent) group doesn't learn anything. I guess what I mean is that in PUGs there is no progress. There is only success or failure.

I don't mind too much. I'd prefer it if Orthanc were easier, but I have plenty of other things to do in game and out.

I read through most of the posts already and for me there can only be one solution which will change our future gaming here without complaining anymore. There should be 3 Level difficulties.

I could think about a new Tier 1 which will just pay you some Seals without any further rewards, maybe a 2nd Age symbol and some relicts. I even think it would be okay that everyone just gets the same reward without any chest. This can only be the fairest way for an easy Raid like you wish it in a PU Group. Tier 2 should be the actual tier 1. Which will give you the loot it has already, maybe on ID 4 and 5 a chance for a 1st Age or with completing a Deed like it was on Draigoch. The difficulty is rather okay I think. Finnaly there will be the Tier 3, which could be the present Tier 2. It could even be 5% harder. Only Tier 3 will offer challange modes and great jewels.

Originally Posted by Link64

Just because a raid is Tier 1 doesn't mean it should be beaten in one day by casual players.

If you want people to take your argument seriously Link64, the very first thing you need to do is to stop with the strawman and your attempt that obviously deliberately mischaracterized people's position. I challenge to you to find where I said Tier 1 should be beaten in one day by casual players? Can't find it? I thought so.

Read this : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Nothing destroys a person's credibility faster then when one blatantly uses this type of tactics. Discuss the real issue in an adult conversation. Nothing more, nothing less.

DU 3 man after the update is now ridiculous even on T1.

It's not that it's unbeatable or all that hard, but more that Turbine has essentially turned what was a fun instance to run into something that is so annoying it's not even worth the trouble to run it. Congratulations, your "fixes" to the instance have made it into a big waste of time.

All torches down in the lower level with the barrels even on T1? Yeah, not fun, just stupid and annoying. 10s stun on the mini boss along with AOE silence, 1500 per tick dot, etc? Again, not fun, just annoying.

Whoever is in charge has apparently confused the words "annoying" and "difficult". Instances can be difficult without being annoying. Difficult instances are still fun to run, but some of the mechanics in DU really come off as just a middle finger to the players (which is Turbine's track record these days, so no shock, I guess).

Having been around for a long time and run all available content on T1 and T2 when available, from SoA to now RoI (with the exception of T2 Orthanc), I feel justified in saying that T1 DU is not only insanely annoying now, but also too difficult for a T1 3 man instance.

Originally Posted by dietlbomb

The sense of accomplishment you get from learning from your mistakes and beating a tough boss just isn't there when your group blows up and your (now-nonexistent) group doesn't learn anything. I guess what I mean is that in PUGs there is no progress. There is only success or failure.

Not only that, any sense of accomplishment is dashed when the team finally opens the chest and sees...3 pitiful and useless armor pieces and a piece of jewelry with insulting stats. When people did a wing in OD T1, there was a CHANCE that an elder king symbol would drop. There is no such generosity here. When people did OD T2, its a guarantee, and sometimes you olucky and a team of 12 ended up with a 2nd elder king symbol. Good, 2 out of 12 people can luck out. But the design of Orthanc is based on repeated slaps on people's face. You slog through 4 wings that will NOT drop a worn elder king symbol. Then you slog through a bug ridden, unforgiving, lag intolerant, ridiculous Saruman wing that will also NOT drop a worn elder king symbol. And you get slapped more as you open the chest and see the garbage loot inside. I urge people to remember stuff like this when they consider renewing their next month's sub or are tempted to buy points from the store. What goes around, comes around. Devs want to be stingy and miserly, their customers can be too in return.

So, let me float a question : WHY CAN'T THE LOOT IN ORTHANC BE LIKE OST DUNHOTH or DRAIGOCH?

test.

(more words)

Originally Posted by LadyDena

Not only that, any sense of accomplishment is dashed when the team finally opens the chest and sees...3 pitiful and useless armor pieces and a piece of jewelry with insulting stats. When people did a wing in OD T1, there was a CHANCE that an elder king symbol would drop. There is no such generosity here. When people did OD T2, its a guarantee, and sometimes you olucky and a team of 12 ended up with a 2nd elder king symbol. Good, 2 out of 12 people can luck out. But the design of Orthanc is based on repeated slaps on people's face. You slog through 4 wings that will NOT drop a worn elder king symbol. Then you slog through a bug ridden, unforgiving, lag intolerant, ridiculous Saruman wing that will also NOT drop a worn elder king symbol. And you get slapped more as you open the chest and see the garbage loot inside. I urge people to remember stuff like this when they consider renewing their next month's sub or are tempted to buy points from the store. What goes around, comes around. Devs want to be stingy and miserly, their customers can be too in return.

So, let me float a question : WHY CAN'T THE LOOT IN ORTHANC BE LIKE OST DUNHOTH or DRAIGOCH?

I have to agree here somewhat, I'm not overly fussed that a 1st age doesn't/can't drop in T1, considering all you need to get the new armour sets is a once through T1, in a sense balanced by a fairly substantial grind of seals..although I must admit it's not all that bad..IMO opinion T2 is a bit...well, the boss difficulty is fine and once you get the trash sorted it's not that bad either. That said it's very unforgiving of misses and resists, and for someone like me who lives on another continent with a latency 3+ times those who live on the American one (I'm about 0.2 of a second slower than everyone else-besides getting older and being slower anyway) it can present a major problem. I just feel that the trash should award seals at the least for T2..this would make it somewhat more palatable, particularly if you spend 4+ hours like my kin did last night and getting close but not quite succeeding at Burkot.

In particular I agree that a T2 challenge should be a guaranteed 1st age considering difficulty. Certainly JWB has lived up to his promise to make a very seperate level of difficulty between the modes, but I wouldn't say the loot drop is as substantial a difference as the difficulty is. Raids should be difficult and for those that want challenge I'm glad it's there, but for me as I've gotten older it's no longer worth it (not saying you should change it for me) to spend 3-5 hrs doing one boss when I can do T1 in it's entirety in the same time frame. There is IMO a major disconnect when it comes to risk vs reward here. My kin is solidly working away at T2 challenges, but I'm in alt mode (when I even play) setting up for the next one because I'm not expecting a whole lot of time in Farm mode T2 before it goes bye bye for RoR anyway.

Also in regards to the armour, I get why it's like it is, some prefer this way, I preferred the old way..it was more satisfying to get a coin/gem from the raid and just hand in ala Rift/Watcher/DN/Helegrod in later stages before glorified skirmish system, but that's just me and approx half my friends..the other half prefer it the way it is now..generally the alt raiders don't like the new way, the "I only have one character" crowd, prefer it. In the future..maybe you could do both?? that would be great..people who get lucky/want to use DKP get spared a grind for armour outside of the raid..people who like to do 3/6mans ad nauseum instead can go nuts. Just a suggestion.

Originally Posted by Dovakhim

I have to agree on DU Tier 1 criticism.

I'm a casual player and managed Fangorn and Pits quite fine, even completed Foundry Tier 2 with a good and experienced group that adviced me a bit on it.

But I can't seem to complete DU. I tried 8 times and wiped every time.

I find the AoE damage of Dargnakh undoable - he stuns me usually, and then I can't get out of there in time, he wipes me, rinse repeat. That is pointless. How much damage does the guy do? I think it must be in the 12-15k range in one go :/

Please, reduce this insane battle. It may be that some super-experienced uber-players get bored with it, but that's what Tier 3 would be for IMHO.

My 2cents.

I am not good at tanking but I did manage to tank DU t2 with challenge last night. Team was Champ(tank mode)+mini+hunter. I tryed a few days ago with healing cappy instead of mini but it didn't work becuase in the end I am not a true tank nor cappy is a true healer. IMO this instance requires tank+healer+dps. At end boss if you have a guardian+mini you should be able to hold it together, if you understood the mechanics of the troll fight.

Balancing challenge is nothing short of a uphill battle. If we compare foundry and the isen 3 mans to the OD instance cluster (LT, SS, StH, NCF) to their relative difficulties based on their corresponding level caps, the OD instances were FAR harder in both t1 and t2. Any of the instances, though, are quite easy once you know all the mechanics involved and if your team is coordinating properly (lost temple t2 even today requires people to pay attention).

No one can say that difficulty has alienated players in any way other than those who have never tried previous instances that turbine has built. IMO the hardest 6 man during its time was still Dark Delvings. It was considered impossible to probably 95% of the population back when the level cap was 60 WITHOUT using the ledge exploit. The hardest 3 man was by far Water Wheels simply because of the last boss (the Giant one not the 3 caerogs). Although I have to admit HoM stumped more than a few decent players. I wasn't playing before Moria so I'm not sure if the SoA instances were even harder. As for their loot, if anyone remembers how the 1 token per group worked, it was pretty harsh to get your radiance set if you didn't have a solid group of friends or kin to help you get your gear.

Hence, the current instances are far less grind for players who don't have veteran players to call on. I actually wish foundry was far more difficult IMO. It's well done but the challenge is probably at par with GS during its time (without exploits).

The seals system is far from a hardcore grind too. It allows anyone with even moderate skill, a bit of time, and a lot of luck to get the end game pieces. Sure it isn't as easy as getting the dragon set, but the 4 non-draigoch pieces are a joke to collect. Even draigoch pieces is quite simple to get if your on when pugs are doing it. And with the new sets, your chances of getting the head and shoulders are quite high as compared to VM even at level 65.

I do, however, have problems with 1)Skraids and 2)ToO t2. Skraids are an example of low skill, high time investment. For those who bothered grinding for the bling, we all have seen people go afk during those "raids". Undermanning became the way the go but still proved to require an immense amount of luck to get useful pieces since the loot pools were so varied.

ToO t2 difficulty is mind-boggling imo. I've only been able to consistently do lightning wing t2 and my group has been lucky enough to get 3 first age symbols out of 5 kills. Even the mob pulls are punishing to say the least. We aren't the best group but even acid's first pull was a practice of flaggelation. I know there are group who have done it but from what I know most of ToO t2 hasn't been completed by any group. Probably even less on challenge. With the level cap being raised this fall. I don't see more than 1% of the server having a first age 75 before then. This might be great for the hardcore raiders but there should honestly be a rebalancing of ToO so that far more raiders can honestly have a shot at completing the raid before RoR. IMO, this is still a game and shouldn't be so hard as to lock out such a vast majority of the population to the top tier loot.