Thread: Update 6 Lore-master changes proposal: Guide for Raskolnikov

I'm liking a lot of what I see, but I would encourage you all to keep this in perspective. We're already in a very comfortable spot as a class. There are certainly places to improve, but some of these changes have to be looked at from a pvp stand point as well. For example, giving lm's longer stuns on crits is a little op; we do enough cc as is.

That being said, I'll reiterate/add a few ideas...

Spirit of Nature: Food please and talismans please! Shouldn't be a hard or particularly controversial change. I'd love to have different cosmetics affect the aura (current 5% miss chance). So liek, a fire one would do 50 fire damage every 2 seconds or something silly. That's a little far reaching, but just interesting.

Legacies: Totally agree that the staff needs to be reworked. Drop some of those excessive damage legacies in favor of support roll. There had been a few suggestions add cd decreases to our debuffs as legacies, but this will never happen; majorly steps on the toes of AM capstone. I like the BF duration inc up to 5 seconds. BoH cd would be nice to make us viable 3 man healers (we're still not! really!) but once again, perhaps a little op and overstepping our bounds as a class. Cure cd decrease is an excellent idea. Maybe an armor value decrease from Ancient Craft? Just spit balling.

Traits: Would love to see a few things...
-Agreeing with OP on moving 5% morale to Awareness and adding Staff Sweep to MoS.
-Improved Inner Flame non interruptable please!! Make it a rooting animation... anyone else having fun trying to use it in Draigoch?
-wtb ind decrease on ToW. I don't care where you put it, just make it so Number One!

It's the Little Things:
-CttV reset BoH please.
-WotC heal before animation completes. Not bloody likely, but we can always ask.
-Eagle inc in icpr and please, allow the poor thing to fit through arches inside houses.
-Give us a new 3 set bonus on our pvp set. I maintain it's worse than not having any; all it does is cause Lightning Storm to build dr. At least make it a stun, even with a shorter duration.
-Continual Air Lore... just... no. Just get out. Why not just call it "Useless Unless I Trait Improved"? Think of something clever devs! I believe in you!
-Making SI more manageable would be great. I understand it's tricky to mess with it due to its immense value in pvp, but if we're going to keep getting instances where it has to be kept up 100% of the time, a bit of change would be nice. Aoe would be op, no question in that. Perhaps no cd when traited?

./2cents

Originally Posted by MysterX

Here's one I noticed last night that is really annoying...

Wisdom of the Council - please move the self-heal to the front of the animation.

I was in the Pits of Isengard (already an incredibly annoying instance for LMs with so many induction interrupts from punts), I knew I was about to get hit with AoE from the troll boss, I used WotC... and then I was dead, with the skill on cooldown.

I agree with above poster. This has happened to me in the moors on numerous occasions; dead when using it because the animation takes precedence. Very frustrating.

Also wound removal was previously had no cool down but now it has a cool down whether traited or not. I personally think this needs updating to the way it worked previously.

Additionally an aoe stun dot (SOP Righteousness) would be nice if its a LI or a future skill or possibly traited bonus skill as part of the debuffing set. There is nothing more boring than having to put stun dot on each player in group over and over again. This is a game to have fun in not to become a chore. Some might say its overpowered but I have been playing this class for over 4 years and its time for a change.

A lot of nice suggestions, so I will throw out my "Pet " peeve. I have never liked having to trait a pet in the legendary slot. Especialy since through lack of scaling, the eagle is no longer legendary. I have always viewed all the pets as situational for various dungeons and or parts of dungeons to be called upon at the LM's need. So I would like to see the Eagle and Lurker relegated back to on-par with the other pets, which then opens up a legendary slot for many LMs, and simply makes them another situational pet to call on.

The eagle is still legendary. The icpr-aura may be weak, but it's not the best part of the eagle.

- best flanking pet (except lurker in meleerange)
- interrupting
- fear
(-rezz)

Originally Posted by Tatharil

The eagle is still legendary. The icpr-aura may be weak, but it's not the best part of the eagle.

- best flanking pet (except lurker in meleerange)
- interrupting
- fear
(-rezz)

Everyone here that has been playing a LM for years knows what the pets do, and again the attributes you listed (imho) only make the eagle situational. The only trait that makes the eagle close to legendary is the rezz, and I would sacrfice it for the ability to run the eagle un-traited. Otherwise one could view all the pets as legendary.

Bear: Best tanking pet, armor rend, stun...
Kitty: Best DPS pet, attacks from stealth...
Mtn Lion : Best AOE damage for multiple small mob harvesting...
Limfarin: Heals...

Etc.

Yes, in lore the Eagle has a special place. Apparently Turbine thought it should be equal to a Bog Lurker. *Snickers* I say let's move away from pet traiting. The eagle was given the rez ability before this game became easily soloable and made a legenday trait before 3 more pets came along. Time to adjust. Maybe move the eagle rezz to a bonus when traiting 5 deep in the pets line. (except few would trait for it, as it is rarely needed.)

Originally Posted by PoetnSage

Kitty: Best DPS pet, attacks from stealth...

Have you seen the damage on the bear since Isengard? It easily outdoes the lynx now. Best you could argue for that is burst damage.

Originally Posted by Ryen

Also wound removal was previously had no cool down but now it has a cool down whether traited or not. I personally think this needs updating to the way it worked previously.

I'd much rather be able to use it in combat all the time with a cooldown over having to use up a trait slot for it with no cooldown, especially since if you're the only LM in a raid you can remove wounds from the other fellowship now, whereas PaaI limits you to removing it from your own 6 man half of the raid.

A skill change I haven't heard anyone about is Improved Inner Flame. Perhaps I'm the only one, but no matter how often I try equipping the trait, I keep feeling it is not powerful enough to be worth the slot. I just feel I could've slotted something more useful in its stead. I now leave the trait unused and only trait 3 blues (Light of Hope, Healer and Improved Flanking) when main-healing an instance.

My issues:
- The healing overall is quite low
- Since it is a channeled skill, you loose much time that you could've spent protecting your fellowship more effectively (e.g. by debuffing the enemy or DPS'ing-->killing it instead)

For instance, when I am healing a 3-man, the majority of the time only one person (the tank) is taking damage, so Improved Inner Flame is not needed. If something goes wrong and everyone takes damage, Improved Inner Flame does not heal enough to make up for the damage; it is not effective enough. I often think it's more effective to, for example, equip an extra debuffing trait instead.

In a 6-man there's often another healing class, making the contribution of Improved Inner Flame close to nothing (a slot better spent). If there is no other healing class, the skill simply doesn't heal up sufficiently for the damage they are taking.

I feel this is a shame, as I would love to trait deeper than 3 into the blue line!

Not sure what would be the best solution to this problem: increasing the healing a bit, reducing the channeling duration while keeping the same healing, adding a small armour bonus or hot to the people being healed... etc. I'm curious as to what others think (perhaps I'm the only one who feels like this) and what they propose.


Only thing I read about Improved Inner Flame in this thread so far:

Originally Posted by JDCass

-Improved Inner Flame non interruptable please!! Make it a rooting animation... anyone else having fun trying to use it in Draigoch?

The same counts for the RK's Rousing Words in Draigoch... I think it's a problem specific to that fight. The jumping is clearly meant as a manner to make the fight more challenging (no comments as to the reaching of that goal). I don't think they should change a whole skill because of the mechanics in a single fight.

Also, I quite like the ability to run away and end my channeling at any time I please (e.g. a scary AoE'ing troll boss running away, or a horde of creeps). As for non interruptable-only: that sounds nice, but I'm not sure if a buff to the skill in that form is really necessary.

Originally Posted by TinDragon

I'd much rather be able to use it in combat all the time with a cooldown over having to use up a trait slot for it with no cooldown, especially since if you're the only LM in a raid you can remove wounds from the other fellowship now, whereas PaaI limits you to removing it from your own 6 man half of the raid.

I agree to this: the way you were forced to make it AoE and your-fellowship-only if you wanted to use it in combat was not ideal at all. I do, however, like the idea of reducing the cooldown a bit through (for instance) a legacy. The obsolete Knowledge of Cures buff duration was removed; instead we could have a Knowledge of Cures cooldown legacy.

One possibilty for inner flame would be to turn it into a 2sec cast leaving a hot on the fellowship.
Its greatest weakness is the channelingtime. Healing cant be tuned up cause we are not meant to be mainhealers (exception 3 mans). I think the best solution is to get rid of the channeling. Increasing the healingamount to be high enough to justify the damn weaknesses of the spell would be the wrong way. It would have to be pretty strong to reach this.

Castingtime should fit the amount healed.
If the healing amount is adjusted to fit the castingtime and CD it would be stronger than rousing word.

I enjoyed the idea of focus a LM to heal: improved inner flame and flank are brilliant ideas. Unfortunately, imo LM heals should be better. Inner Flame heal isnt good enough and have a longe channel time, while flank heals are too random. So, it would be great if there were a way to reduce these cons.

OD set gives AoE heal with flank, but it is obsolete because of the new lvl cap. This mechanic could be reused in some way(by set or traits, set of traits, legacy, etc).

Wisdom of Council could have a brush up as well. Long time ago when lvl cap was 50 it healed almost all LM morale (which was small) but now this only happens on criticals and normally WoC heals less than 1/3 LM morale. I know it depends on the LM, but the proportion could be more accurate. Another suggestion about this skill is a way to turns it a Fellow Heal (when properly equipped - traits, legacy, armour set, etc - not making too overpower of course.

Lastly, aiming LM dps and gameplay in PvP, i would like to see next improvements surronding his inductions. Since Moria LM has got higher DPS, DoTs, crits, cd reductions; but its real wall are the inductions and some costs of morale. I understand inductions: "We give you a cast, but the damage will be high" - it makes sense. Im just saying that if there is to be a LM dps boost, inductions could be managed. The costs of morale i dont know why they exist; lots of skills dont even have morale cost and do high damage.

I wish you like my post. bb =)

Originally Posted by Tatharil

Castingtime should fit the amount healed.
If the healing amount is adjusted to fit the castingtime and CD it would be stronger than rousing word.

Agreed. I was thinking something in between what it currently is and Rousing Words. I do understand Lore-masters are not supposed to be main-healers in 6-mans and bigger and agree with that, but the skill in its current form is underpowered.

Originally Posted by sorig09

Lastly, aiming LM dps and gameplay in PvP, i would like to see next improvements surronding his inductions. Since Moria LM has got higher DPS, DoTs, crits, cd reductions; but its real wall are the inductions and some costs of morale. I understand inductions: "We give you a cast, but the damage will be high" - it makes sense. Im just saying that if there is to be a LM dps boost, inductions could be managed. The costs of morale i dont know why they exist; lots of skills dont even have morale cost and do high damage.

i think doing to much to inductions would make us OP, you have roots, mezzes, etc. to keep things away from you; im only level 36 but for the fun of it i traited 4 MoNF last night and absolutely blew stuff up in evendim last night.. i feel like it wouldnt be fair if our inductions changed too much; traiting harmony with nature is all we should get

#my2centz

Originally Posted by ronaldburgundy

i think doing to much to inductions would make us OP, you have roots, mezzes, etc. to keep things away from you; im only level 36 but for the fun of it i traited 4 MoNF last night and absolutely blew stuff up in evendim last night.. i feel like it wouldnt be fair if our inductions changed too much; traiting harmony with nature is all we should get

#my2centz

In pvmp CC is potable. It's like a DPS + slow rush all the time. Since a lot of creeps have slows... you can't kite, what can you do if the enemy is close to you and you can't land inductions because of induction time with setbacks? when you land your second skill you are at 1/4 morale, you can only dps a bit before you go down, retreat to ress.

Originally Posted by Advanced

In pvmp CC is potable. It's like a DPS + slow rush all the time. Since a lot of creeps have slows... you can't kite, what can you do if the enemy is close to you and you can't land inductions because of induction time with setbacks? when you land your second skill you are at 1/4 morale, you can only dps a bit before you go down, retreat to ress.

Loremaster is a squishy class. If the enemy is able to close with you, you should die.

For the inductions debate there is this lovely thread: http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...-problems-quot of which I am sure Raskolnikov had no way of overlooking it.

Please let's not write the whole induction-thing here all over again.

Originally Posted by AlazkanAssassin

Loremaster is a squishy class. If the enemy is able to close with you, you should die.

Agreed.
Inductions are part of the class, we have CttV in tight situations.

Like others have said Inner Flame needs to be changed - not necessarily boosted. It seems more useful as a way to speed up out of combat morale regen. Time spent channeling in combat is wasted and I know if I'm caught in the induction and my pet flanks I'm going to break the channel and get the flank heal off. I'm sure everyone else would too.

I'd like to see Air-Lore changed too, the coolest part of this skill is the animation. Even with the 5 set bonus from Orthanc it still seems rather weak (I haven't got the set, it just sounds rather underwhelming).

I liked the idea of having wooden carvings like Wardens to boost individual pets.
After they scale the damage our pets deal it'd be nice change the -10% Frost Mitigation from the Feline Hunter skill to something more useful maybe?

Been playing on my LM some more and here is what I got.

LMs do not play well with other LMs period. I understand that wind lore + wind lore = no ranged damage and same if you stacked fire lore but at least give us something. But that can be forgiven. What can not be forgiven is that none of our DoTs stack. Hunters DoTs stack, RKs, burgs, everyone else but regardless how many burning embers multiple LMs throw they only stack up to three. This takes away a whole lot of the class dps. Since the improved burning embers the legacy for burning embers pulses has become very valuable but it is worthless if you have another LM in the group. Same thing for wizards. With ToO you really want two LMs for crowd control but so many of our skills are worthless with another LM around.

In ToO a LM needs to trait either blue or yellow because of the blinding flash duration. But both the blue and yellow traits need some improvement. Study of fire lore and study of frost lore should either increase the duration of the skill or decrease the cool down, so you can have the skill up the whole time. Secret of tar is just awful, it needs to be changed, maybe add these effect to the trait line bonuses because they are weak to. Air-lore, even when traited blue is not worth the power cost, which is a shame because the improved flanking is good. Maybe improved flanking can be like the old armor set bonus and heal everyone in the area. Trait lines for blue and red need a buff in general.

Red traits are really solid but can not be used in ToO because you need the full 30 seconds blinding flash. I have always through that instead of reducing blinding flash duration red traits should increase the cool down of blinding flash. Increasing the cool down from 15 seconds to a minute would reduce our crowd control without destroying blinding flash. Because really even full red traited we can not do nearly as much dps as a dps class, so why remove all our crowd control.

With our LIs I would like to see a legacy that increases flank heals, a legacy that increases the duration of our lore skills and a legacy that increases fire damage.

Another thing that came to mind. I understand that knowledge of cures can not effect an entire raid but if I target someone specifically not in my group they should get the effect of it.

Originally Posted by Lambs

LMs do not play well with other LMs period. I understand that wind lore + wind lore = no ranged damage and same if you stacked fire lore but at least give us something. But that can be forgiven. What can not be forgiven is that none of our DoTs stack. Hunters DoTs stack, RKs, burgs, everyone else but regardless how many burning embers multiple LMs throw they only stack up to three. This takes away a whole lot of the class dps. Since the improved burning embers the legacy for burning embers pulses has become very valuable but it is worthless if you have another LM in the group. Same thing for wizards. With ToO you really want two LMs for crowd control but so many of our skills are worthless with another LM around.

DoTs do stack. I roll with multiple LMs in the Moors all the time, and its quite the sight to see 3+ LMs with all of their DoTs up on a target. When Isengard came out, the DoTs not stacking past three was a bug, and that was corrected.

Originally Posted by Lambs

In ToO a LM needs to trait either blue or yellow because of the blinding flash duration. But both the blue and yellow traits need some improvement. Study of fire lore and study of frost lore should either increase the duration of the skill or decrease the cool down, so you can have the skill up the whole time. Secret of tar is just awful, it needs to be changed, maybe add these effect to the trait line bonuses because they are weak to. Air-lore, even when traited blue is not worth the power cost, which is a shame because the improved flanking is good. Maybe improved flanking can be like the old armor set bonus and heal everyone in the area. Trait lines for blue and red need a buff in general.

Having the trait allow you to use the skill full time would eliminate the need to trait Force of Will, as that is what our capstone accomplishes. No go on that one. Fire-Lore could use some reworking, as an extra 5% miss chance isn't exactly that great. Frost-lore is spectacular though. 50% induction time and another 10% damage reduction is beastly. The wind-lore trait itself is pretty good as well, but unfortunately there's not enough ranged mobs to usually justify traiting it. Not sure what the solution on that one would be though.

Secret of Tar actually isn't that bad. Good Moors trait if I'm remembering what it does correctly.

Air-Lore definitely needs some reworking, but Improved Flanking is good as-is. Definitely worth the power cost. 3 power a second should be nothing compared to what an LM can pull in.

Originally Posted by Lambs

Red traits are really solid but can not be used in ToO because you need the full 30 seconds blinding flash. I have always through that instead of reducing blinding flash duration red traits should increase the cool down of blinding flash. Increasing the cool down from 15 seconds to a minute would reduce our crowd control without destroying blinding flash. Because really even full red traited we can not do nearly as much dps as a dps class, so why remove all our crowd control.

Like you said, our DPS isn't as good as other classes... so why would you want to trait red in a raid, when you could trait yellow or blue and fill a role we outdo most other classes in? I have no problem traiting yellow or blue to get my 30s mez back. If you really wanna blow up the boss with red, trait hybrid for the trash and retrait before the boss. That's how we used to do it for disease wing in OD. And Blinding Flash is nowhere NEAR all of our crowd control. We still have a separate mez, two roots, three stuns (four with a trait), and a fear when traited, none of which are affected by traiting red. I'd honestly say that still makes us a bit overpowered in red honestly.

Originally Posted by Lambs

With our LIs I would like to see a legacy that increases flank heals, a legacy that increases the duration of our lore skills and a legacy that increases fire damage.

A legacy to increase flank heals would be really cool, and would fit with our new blue line traits. I say no to lore increases for the same reason I listed above, that's what Force of Will is for. We already have many legacies that increase your fire damage, they just aren't straight up "+% Fire Damage". We already have a Tactical Damage one for that anyway, and I think we have plenty of other damage-related legacies. What we need is a few more non-damage legacies, specifically on the staff.

Originally Posted by Lambs

Another thing that came to mind. I understand that knowledge of cures can not effect an entire raid but if I target someone specifically not in my group they should get the effect of it.

It can if you don't have Proof Against All Ills traited. You have to decide whether you want to use it on your entire fellowship at once, or if you want to be able to do it raid-wide but single-target.

Originally Posted by PoetnSage

Everyone here that has been playing a LM for years knows what the pets do, and again the attributes you listed (imho) only make the eagle situational. The only trait that makes the eagle close to legendary is the rezz, and I would sacrfice it for the ability to run the eagle un-traited. Otherwise one could view all the pets as legendary.

Bear: Best tanking pet, armor rend, stun...
Kitty: Best DPS pet, attacks from stealth...
Mtn Lion : Best AOE damage for multiple small mob harvesting...
Limfarin: Heals...

Etc.

Yes, in lore the Eagle has a special place. Apparently Turbine thought it should be equal to a Bog Lurker. *Snickers* I say let's move away from pet traiting. The eagle was given the rez ability before this game became easily soloable and made a legendary trait before 3 more pets came along. Time to adjust. Maybe move the eagle rezz to a bonus when traiting 5 deep in the pets line. (except few would trait for it, as it is rarely needed.)

The only problem I see with making the eagle not legendary is that it is just better than the raven, except against BAs. But I think all the pets need an overhaul. The lynx and saber cat are pretty useless. Their damage is so small and they have no real useful skills like the bear, raven, eagle and bog-lurker. The wisp still annoys me. The only thing I like about it is that it doesn't die but that's it. It needs to generate more flanks, have its healing ability up more often and do more healing in general. I like that the raven debuffs ranged attacks. We need to add more skills that that to our other pets to make them more useful and make them better for different situations.

Really it goes

Raven- good against BAs
Bear- Best non-legendary pet
Lynx- worthless
Saber cat - worthless
Eagle - best pet if not trained blue
Bog lurker - best pet
spirit - worthless

Originally Posted by TinDragon

DoTs do stack. I roll with multiple LMs in the Moors all the time, and its quite the sight to see 3+ LMs with all of their DoTs up on a target. When Isengard came out, the DoTs not stacking past three was a bug, and that was corrected.

Last time I ran with another LM (maybe three days ago) I did not see more than 3 burning embers DoTs up at once. I know I have +9 pulses so my three are always up so either the LM was not using burning embers or it still doesn't stack past three. Also I did not see two wizard fire dots on even after I saw the other person flank heal. So that is another one of our DoTs that don't stack. Also none of our debuffs stack. Burg debuffs do with diminished returns, why not ours.

Having the trait allow you to use the skill full time would eliminate the need to trait Force of Will, as that is what our capstone accomplishes. No go on that one. Fire-Lore could use some reworking, as an extra 5% miss chance isn't exactly that great. Frost-lore is spectacular though. 50% induction time and another 10% damage reduction is beastly. The wind-lore trait itself is pretty good as well, but unfortunately there's not enough ranged mobs to usually justify traiting it. Not sure what the solution on that one would be though.

If we had an increase in the duration we could make the capstone better. Something more legendary.

Secret of Tar actually isn't that bad. Good Moors trait if I'm remembering what it does correctly.

It might be okay in the moors but I think it still needs a boost. Maybe something like causes a short duration root or a lasting slow debuff or even just slowed thing down more. Something to make it better.

Air-Lore definitely needs some reworking, but Improved Flanking is good as-is. Definitely worth the power cost. 3 power a second should be nothing compared to what an LM can pull in.

If improved flanking healed the whole fellowship like the only armor set we wouldn't have to worry about air lore. Air lore just needs some buff. Maybe make it on par with the mini's targeted buff that also cost 3 power a second.

Like you said, our DPS isn't as good as other classes... so why would you want to trait red in a raid, when you could trait yellow or blue and fill a role we outdo most other classes in? I have no problem traiting yellow or blue to get my 30s mez back. If you really wanna blow up the boss with red, trait hybrid for the trash and retrait before the boss. That's how we used to do it for disease wing in OD. And Blinding Flash is nowhere NEAR all of our crowd control. We still have a separate mez, two roots, three stuns (four with a trait), and a fear when traited, none of which are affected by traiting red. I'd honestly say that still makes us a bit overpowered in red honestly.

The reason I think we need the cool down of blinding flash increased instead of the duration decreased is because for the most part we only need to daze something at the start of a encounter and then we need to be DPS. if we need to perma lock something we can be yellow or blue.

A legacy to increase flank heals would be really cool, and would fit with our new blue line traits. I say no to lore increases for the same reason I listed above, that's what Force of Will is for. We already have many legacies that increase your fire damage, they just aren't straight up "+% Fire Damage". We already have a Tactical Damage one for that anyway, and I think we have plenty of other damage-related legacies. What we need is a few more non-damage legacies, specifically on the staff.

Most of the damage related ones other than tactical damage and burning embers suck. We do not use cracked earth, test of will, etc enough to make the legacies worth it. I can't remember if you have a damage over time increase legacy but that would be nice too.

It can if you don't have Proof Against All Ills traited. You have to decide whether you want to use it on your entire fellowship at once, or if you want to be able to do it raid-wide but single-target.

I just think if you target someone with the skill it should remove their wounds/diseases regardless if you are traited or not.

Originally Posted by Lambs

Raven- good against BAs
Bear- Best non-legendary pet
Lynx- worthless
Saber cat - worthless
Eagle - best pet if not trained blue
Bog lurker - best pet
spirit - worthless

Most pets are not simply 'worthless', they certainly do have some use, albeit not all in group-situations. I don't have time to react extensively right now, but the main use of the raven would be his tactical mitigation buff, not that he's good against BA's. It's great to reduce the damage taken of your group in plenty of instances, and also boosts inc fire damage, has a reasonable flank rate, and a small chance to apply a miss chance debuff... that pet's simply great!

Bog lurker is OK, but you give up a lot by having to trait that deep into the blue line. Saber cat and Lynx have the least use for me.

Originally Posted by Ravanel

Most pets are not simply 'worthless', they certainly do have some use, albeit not all in group-situations. I don't have time to react extensively right now, but the main use of the raven would be his tactical mitigation buff, not that he's good against BA's. It's great to reduce the damage taken of your group in plenty of instances, and also boosts inc fire damage, has a reasonable flank rate, and a small chance to apply a miss chance debuff... that pet's simply great!

Bog lurker is OK, but you give up a lot by having to trait that deep into the blue line. Saber cat and Lynx have the least use for me.

I didn't say most pets are worthless, just the two cats and the spirit. I am aware the raven is more than just good against BA's. I like the bear better in group situations, but the raven is still pretty useful and I never complain if I see another loremaster use one, unlike the saber cat and lynx. The raven is also pretty good in ToO where he can shut down one of the archer mobs in several of the wings.

I wish bog lurker was not the blue capstone because then I would use him a lot more. But I have been using my LM to Main heal 3 mans and the bog lurker is pretty amazing. Assuming you are traited blue he is the best pet, but I would not trait blue just to use him and blue is not the best line.

Here's my list:

1. Something for the ranged slot.

2. Make the Improved Sticky Gourd fire a different color than mob fire.

3. Uncouple Combat Summoning from the Bog Lurker.

4. Limrafn food.

5. Allow debuffs to stack across multiple LMs, with diminishing returns.

6. Variable debuffing with feedback. That is, debuffs are not for a set value (5% miss), but a range (1%-10%), with a chance for a crit. By feedback, I mean that you actually get to see how much you debuffed in the same way you see damage and heal values.

Originally Posted by Lambs

Been playing on my LM some more and here is what I got.

LMs do not play well with other LMs period.

That is just ABSOLUTELY false. http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...27#post5692627

Originally Posted by Lambs

I understand that wind lore + wind lore = no ranged damage and same if you stacked fire lore but at least give us something. But that can be forgiven. What can not be forgiven is that none of our DoTs stack. Hunters DoTs stack, RKs, burgs, everyone else but regardless how many burning embers multiple LMs throw they only stack up to three. This takes away a whole lot of the class dps. Since the improved burning embers the legacy for burning embers pulses has become very valuable but it is worthless if you have another LM in the group. Same thing for wizards. With ToO you really want two LMs for crowd control but so many of our skills are worthless with another LM around.

LM can stack DoTs from Burning Embers. Stacking debuffs is absolutely OP.

Originally Posted by Lambs

In ToO a LM needs to trait either blue or yellow because of the blinding flash duration. But both the blue and yellow traits need some improvement. Study of fire lore and study of frost lore should either increase the duration of the skill or decrease the cool down, so you can have the skill up the whole time. Secret of tar is just awful, it needs to be changed, maybe add these effect to the trait line bonuses because they are weak to. Air-lore, even when traited blue is not worth the power cost, which is a shame because the improved flanking is good. Maybe improved flanking can be like the old armor set bonus and heal everyone in the area. Trait lines for blue and red need a buff in general.

While AM, the cooldown of fire lore and frost lore is the same as the duration. So, you can keep the debuffs 99% of time. Not a big deal, imo.

Originally Posted by Lambs

With our LIs I would like to see a legacy that increases flank heals, a legacy that increases the duration of our lore skills and a legacy that increases fire damage.

Flank legacy sounds interesting, but it can kill the KoA line if you are able to level up the flank rate too much.

while I do love my LM, lets face it, in a grp we are generally a 2nd class citizen. we are not dps, we are not heals and we are not tank.. we are a little bit of everything w/sauce (and most dont even understand us)...

perhaps redo our class traits so that by maxing out a class trait line it gives us a more traditional role...

if we trait deep yellow our we could heal a grp (aka mini)
if we trait deep red we get the glass canon (aka hunter)
if we trait deep blue we get to be a heavy (aka champ)

When I say deep, i mean 6-7 slots in a line and going that deep comes at a cost to our other abilities... this would still allow us to trait a few in each and be jack of all trades, but also trait deep and have a clearly defined traditional role.

bottom line, I dont want to be a second class citizen or lose a raid/grp spot cuz I am a LM

some will disagree, and perhaps I have not used proper words to explain my thoughts... but all the same, here is my .02

/edit... note... it also seems that other classes have enough interupts so that we are not needed and while the debuffs are great it doesnt take much gear for groups to have enough power to not even care about them

I don't agree. I think the LM is on a great spot like it is now, and I wouldn't want it to be more like other classes at all.

While it is true that many don't understand what the class exactly does, this is mostly their loss. I find every group goes smoother with a LM: enemies hit less hard, people don't get stunned, wounds are removed, great spot healing applied, and still some DPS done... In fact, the people I play with always ask for my LM (and no, that's not because my RK sucks so much... )

Really, not getting accepted for raids because you're a LM is just auto-mutilation done by those people. Every raid should have a LM. I'm not certain if you're talking about skirmish raids/Draigoch or a serious raid like ToO. But in the latter, my kin often even prefers taking two. Two out of 12 spots, where there are 9 classes. That's not too bad, is it?

I don't want my class to change just because some people don't understand its value...

Either way, sounds to me like you just need to find people who do appreciate LMs to hang out with.

yes, the class is great as is... and a big part of the issue is that we are misunderstood...

but when you say 2 spots outta 12 when there are 9 classes, keep in mind that pretty much any other class has at least 3-4 spots outta 12...

and maybe the people you play with dont even blink at 2 LM's... but in my experience (your mileage will vary)... most raid leaders will get 1 LM and then cut it off hard right there... even pugs (for harder content)

I dont care what changes they make tbh, I just want a change where raid/grp leaders dont even blink when they see 2 LM's in a grp, and dont even start counting till there are 3... I have seen 6 mans with 3 of almost every class in it (except mini, I know I havent seen that)... but it is rare to see 2, no less 3 LM's in one...

I just dont wanna be a 2nd class citizen, and I think if a poll were taken, everyone might not agree, but most of those that dont, wouldnt fight to disagree that hard

Originally Posted by Jayvani

while I do love my LM, lets face it, in a grp we are generally a 2nd class citizen. we are not dps, we are not heals and we are not tank.. we are a little bit of everything w/sauce (and most dont even understand us)...

perhaps redo our class traits so that by maxing out a class trait line it gives us a more traditional role...

if we trait deep yellow our we could heal a grp (aka mini)
if we trait deep red we get the glass canon (aka hunter)
if we trait deep blue we get to be a heavy (aka champ)

Sry but I don't like this idea. It would destroy the wonderful class called: Loremaster. The best way to solve this problem, could be information. Explain those groups how much easier a Loremaster can make everything. Isn't there any guide about Loremasters for other classes?

Originally Posted by Jayvani

but when you say 2 spots outta 12 when there are 9 classes, keep in mind that pretty much any other class has at least 3-4 spots outta 12...

Errr, please explain this maths to me. In my brain it doesn't really add up.

Originally Posted by Lambs

Last time I ran with another LM (maybe three days ago) I did not see more than 3 burning embers DoTs up at once. I know I have +9 pulses so my three are always up so either the LM was not using burning embers or it still doesn't stack past three.

They definitely stack past three. A LOT of LMs don't constantly spam burning embers (or at least get it up to 2-3), and yeah it's baffling. They also don't throw SoP: Command on anything and everything, don't debuff, etc etc. Pretty much with a lot of classes, esp if it's not the main - not so great players. I have seen 6 up though recently (couple of days ago) and it's a good way of checking out the other LM's tactical damage %

Originally Posted by Jayvani

I dont care what changes they make tbh, I just want a change where raid/grp leaders dont even blink when they see 2 LM's in a grp,

I'm not sure what hard content two LMs wouldn't be welcome in. 3+ is pushing it probably for sure and that is rare, but 2 in a raid? Especially orthanc (is this about orthanc?)? It's pretty handy, and in some areas essential. Burgs have a harder time getting into raids that aren't draigoch, imo. Or are your posts about 3mans (especially T2 Isengard 3mans) where people want tank/mini/dps? In some of them an LM is crucial (DU) and if they're not taking one then yeah they're going to be the ones complaining about how difficult Darg T2 is. The T1s are very doable with an LM (usually as dps, sometimes heals, but I have tanked Fangorn as well - *snicker*). I think your post is 90% about the people* you encounter, where they either don't know what the class can do or do not know the player behind the person offering to join,, and less about what the classes' capabilities are. Honestly, it's much harder to find groups as a hunter simply because there are so many of them.


Multiple LMs also synergize pretty well in groups - two very well, three doesn't add a whole lot more. Infinite power, debuffs up all the time without needing to respec AM, most of the DoTs do stack, another person to take aggro when your sticky gourd draws the threat of every mob around you.


edit: Oops, not to go off topic. A lot of good ideas in the thread I'd like to avoid clumping all classes into the same few groups and removing diversity and playstyle from them though.

Originally Posted by Jayvani

but when you say 2 spots outta 12 when there are 9 classes, keep in mind that pretty much any other class has at least 3-4 spots outta 12...

and maybe the people you play with dont even blink at 2 LM's... but in my experience (your mileage will vary)... most raid leaders will get 1 LM and then cut it off hard right there... even pugs (for harder content)

I dont care what changes they make tbh, I just want a change where raid/grp leaders dont even blink when they see 2 LM's in a grp, and dont even start counting till there are 3... I have seen 6 mans with 3 of almost every class in it (except mini, I know I havent seen that)... but it is rare to see 2, no less 3 LM's in one...

I just dont wanna be a 2nd class citizen, and I think if a poll were taken, everyone might not agree, but most of those that dont, wouldnt fight to disagree that hard

Come join us at Crickhollow. Things have gotten pretty good lately. Two LMs are common, and I've been on raids with 3 and even 4 LMs. You'll get the occasional noob who doesn't know better, but there's a very healthy respect for LMs among the L75 crowd.

Originally Posted by wiles.zack

I think the blue line needs more love. I never see people trait down it (unless it's specifically for the bog-lurker). I feel that, ideally, a full blue's pet would do a significant amount of damage (by this, i mean it would be almost on par with a non-MoNF LM), while the LM could easily heal three-mans, and heal 6-mans with a lot of skill. There would also possibly be a damage penalty to the LM to balance it out.

^
|_ This! It was attempted before and gave us one useful blue trait (improved flanking), resulting in me actually going 3 blues from time to time. But something serious needs to be changed to make this line more appealing for anyone apart from die-hard hard content soloers.

I think blue trait line could use some buffs as well. I guess it has its own niche to fill right now, but I don't find myself using it much, if ever. It's a shame, because I do like some of the individual traits. PAAI, dunadan learning, healer, light of hope, and improved flanking are all pretty nice. The trait-line set bonuses, however, are not that great.

I'm thinking something like each blue trait reducing the CD of beacon of hope may be a nice bonus. Or maybe reducing it by 5 seconds for the for blue trait set. This would make us more viable healers for 3 man instances, without being too OP.

While the pet bonuses with this trait-line are decent, they're not anything to write home about in my opinion. They're useful mostly for soloing more difficult content, as far as I see it. Some change to inner flame would also be nice, as has been stated. A slight increase to the healing output, and a change from a channeled skill to an induction skill applying a HoT would be much nicer I think.

I like some of the ideas in this thread and hope they get some serious consideration. Hopefully people keep coming up with good ideas and we can get some love in the near future.

I just wanted to say I grouped up with another LM and got to see that our burning embers do stack. We had 6 ticking down at once. Which is a lot of damage and a reason to be upset if they didn't stack. I still wish our other skills stacked a little, but I understand how powerful that would be.


As for LMs in raids. For all speed raids, things like dragon, LMs are not needed. Actually I think LM is probably the worst class to take into dragon. If you have the dragon armor set with the +5% crit and extended ancient craft then LMs are pretty good for added damage but really there is not much to debuff and extra dps dps from a hunter would be better than a LM.

In skirmish raids 1 LM is more than enough. They are so easy that debuffs aren't really needed and communication is so low that all mexxes are broken after they are put up. I wouldn't be against having multiple LMs but you are probably better off with only 1.

In ToO however, we really shine. You pretty much must have at least 2 LM to chain mezz trolls. Negating 30% of melee damage and slowing attack rates by 20% is HUGE. Any mini will know how much easier it is to heal with a LM around. When someone complains a class like hunter can occupy 3-4 spots in a raid keep in mind that they can also occupy 0 spots if they are replaced by other DPS. Their class has no special skills needed other than damage which any DPS class can fill. So 2 necessary slots is defiantly good.

For the person who said LMs are second class, sure you can say that but if that is the case than the only first class classes are Mini, Captains and Guards. Hunters, champs and RK are all nice to have but never necessary so they are second class. Burgs (outside of dragon) and wardens are probably third class.

Originally Posted by shadow21

I think blue trait line could use some buffs as well. I guess it has its own niche to fill right now, but I don't find myself using it much, if ever. It's a shame, because I do like some of the individual traits. PAAI, dunadan learning, healer, light of hope, and improved flanking are all pretty nice. The trait-line set bonuses, however, are not that great.

I'm thinking something like each blue trait reducing the CD of beacon of hope may be a nice bonus. Or maybe reducing it by 5 seconds for the for blue trait set. This would make us more viable healers for 3 man instances, without being too OP.

While the pet bonuses with this trait-line are decent, they're not anything to write home about in my opinion. They're useful mostly for soloing more difficult content, as far as I see it. Some change to inner flame would also be nice, as has been stated. A slight increase to the healing output, and a change from a channeled skill to an induction skill applying a HoT would be much nicer I think.

I like some of the ideas in this thread and hope they get some serious consideration. Hopefully people keep coming up with good ideas and we can get some love in the near future.

I never use the blue trait line because it is so weak. I think reducing beacon of hope cool-down would be great the blue trait line. Also increasing healing output and power transfer output would be awesome. Maybe instead of focusing on buffing the pet (which doesn't do that much) the line could focus on keeping the pet and allies healed. I think the trait master of beast is probably the weakest trait, if that could be changed to +15% healing or something. Then we really could have a nice secondary healing class. Not as strong as the mini or RK but maybe on par with captain healing. The master of beast trait could be a set bonus of being able to use both signs at once.

Originally Posted by Ravanel

Most pets are not simply 'worthless', they certainly do have some use, albeit not all in group-situations. I don't have time to react extensively right now, but the main use of the raven would be his tactical mitigation buff, not that he's good against BA's. It's great to reduce the damage taken of your group in plenty of instances, and also boosts inc fire damage, has a reasonable flank rate, and a small chance to apply a miss chance debuff... that pet's simply great!

Bog lurker is OK, but you give up a lot by having to trait that deep into the blue line. Saber cat and Lynx have the least use for me.

LOL wait a Raven isnt good againsts a Ba???? Interupts,mits and reduce damage from range dude you need to read the skills they're extremely useful against a Ba.

The Raven can't interrupt.

At least you dont need to worry about Sticky Gourd damage

Cezelle scored a devastating hit with Improved Sticky Gourd on Purebloodnakh for 4,356 Fire damage to Morale

Originally Posted by LEGENDofALL

LOL wait a Raven isnt good againsts a Ba???? Interupts,mits and reduce damage from range dude you need to read the skills they're extremely useful against a Ba.

The point Ravanel was trying to make wasn't that the raven isn't good against a BA, because the raven is amazing against BA's. The point was that the raven has more use than just an anti-BA pet. I admit that I was selling the pets a little short but I do feel that the cats (both lynx and saber) and the wisp spirit thing have no real place being used anywhere but solo and in solo you are probably better off with a high flanking animal like the eagle, raven, or bog lurker or you should have the bear to pull aggro.

And again I will say I have been becoming more and more impressed with the bear. He can really take a hit, maybe not as good as a guard but probably about as good as a champ. His arm shatter makes him the highest dps pet if you have a couple melee classes. And with his amazing survivability I see his Roaring challenge as a 10 second AOE CC move. You may need to throw the bear a heal but in a lot of content he will survive the 10 seconds, drop all aggro, and need no further attention.