Does it really matter? Many people complain about having keeps flipped because of rez circles. Many of those same players complain about people hiding in NPC's. If the opposition takes your rez circle(s) what gives you the right to blame them for you logging off? If you log off it's your choice. Don't pin it on those who are stronger on the field at that time.
"But we were fighting in open field and had good battles going until you flipped our rez" So what! Now you have to move somewhere else when you die. The walk from TR rez is the same to TA as the Lugz rez to TA. If you haven't noticed, most of the map is extremely similar in terms of keep placement. If freeps are getting camped at GV or creeps at Grams and they don't like it then they have 3 options. #1 Hold out and hope others log on soon to help you fight or #2 Log off #3 Learn to use what you've been dealt and try your best.
If you don't like it and are no longer having fun then do something about it or quit. The map flips day and night. Both sides need to take keeps for quests and/or tokens so both sides will continue to take keeps, this will never change.
Come out and play the way you want to but don't expect others to play the way you would like them to.
there is a HUGE difference in killing the tyrant/CG and flipping the keep.
Creeps need keeps for quests, why would freeps let them keep it? I used to log onto my warg every morning to farm AN at stab for DP and eventually someone showed up to spoil that then they would sit in EC. It was nothing for me to cry about. They were simply denying me the chance to better my creep because if they dont then I'd be stronger in the future. I suppose you would like it if the freeps would let you quest all the time, get your ranks and skills and then fight them?
Last edited by AlmontRaider; Dec 10 2011 at 10:49 AM.
From a purely objective standpoint it is an unbalanced equation. The freeps can engage in actions that directly hamper the creeps ability to increase their combat effectiveness; whereas the creeps have no way of slowing down or preventing a freep from reaching optimal combat effectiveness. A freep can fully gear and maximize their ability without any counter offensive option available by the opposing side. On the other hand the freeps can if they want directly slow down the rate at which the opposing side can gear out so to speak. If we are being objective it is an unfair situation for the creeps. It allows the freeps to have interdiction ability without giving it to the creeps. As to how much of an effect this has on the overall situation is up to debate, but it can't be denied their is an inequity in some measure here.
I'm a creep, I know we're not an even match for the freeps, I like the challenge. I don't really care where I rez to, I'm still coming back atcha!
Regarding keeps, there are plenty of opportunities for us to regain keeps, its just that we often can't get the numbers together. I don't entirely blame this on server population or time of day, I think on creepside we need to re-evaluate what it is we do. A lot of the vets seem to have this visceral reaction to new guys (and gals) on the block which means they never 'learn the ropes' and never really contribute to the war effort. Too many times I wind up with a pod of greenies, attempting to teach them whats what, when I'm still learning from my own mistakes. They are constantly apologising for being new and telling me I can kick them if I want, we have basically created a system of institutionalised ostracism that I find quite puerile. My own beginning interactions with other creeps back in VIP days were very negative as well. I know there are reasons why we don't like working with them, but the (virtual) reality is that we have to harden up, bite the bullet while they suck, and get over it if we want to move forward.
Rant over.
Everything expressed above is obviously my (not particularly) humble opinion.
the only problem I have is with the burgs (three that I've seen) that like to camp just outside between the rez circle and OC, and continually ambush creeps like they have nothing else better to do... but even that can be dealt with by simply going around the area... and then joining up with fellow creeps to give them a beating like no other...
Games are supposed to be fun. If they aren't, perhaps you should be rethinking your objectives? Changing strategies?
On your tar note though, most freeps do what their leader tells them to do (to the best of their ability). If they're told to sit in a bunch in a tar spot, they will (if you played a freep wouldn't you? I mean, face it, it's a good strategy for facerolling you guys most of the time...). I don't understand how can you even except your ADVERSARIES to play in a way that would be outright harming their chances. You should never do that. What you can do is think of ways YOU can do stuff better. There are too many freeps? Make some of them log! We used to do that all the time when creeps used to faceroll freeps. Play dirty and expect freeps to do the same. This is war, not kindergarten, after all.
Actually the freeps have pushed down to grams a few times, that usually results in two different scenarios - sometimes you get wiped running back or just pushing up too individually, at other times you basically farm where we can get back EVEN FASTER. I think pushing down in us even for a min or two and living through that would give you more kills, as people would be motivated to run back from the rez thinking - we can do this, we can wipe those fools. This is what, imo, Ren meant. I am not telling/asking anyone to die, but I do wish to remind you dying in a hardcore fight can be fun, and going in an unbelievable spot and holding out for some time before stepping back is EPIC.
I have run multiple fights near Lugz rez and Grams and have either owned creeps or have been wiped. TBH the most fun fights are always non-stop battles that require positions like this. I'm not sure if Ren has just missed these fights or what but what I do know is I will not march a group of my kin or a pug group into creeps knowing I will lose. I'm not sure how that makes a leader selfish.
All I can say is Freeps, KOC, BBC, LOC or whatever are not unbeatable. I think the problem your having Ren, and pardon me for interupting this fine arguement, is that you are playing the Freeps game.
When Freeps have a solid raid, you dont stand toe to toe with them. In five years it has never worked. Make them play your game. Make them fight on your terms. This exchanging deaths is crazy. Yesterday to me was a farm fest. I absolutley dont know why as creeps you guys did that. I didn't even work yesterday. I just facerolled my keyboard. If you guys call that fun then so be it. But with the freeps numbers yesterday I sure wouldn't have been at a rez.
The problem I see with the creeps atm is the class make up. Is that your fault? No, but you can essentailly have the same heavy, rez, never kill group the freeps have. Heres a little advice if you dont mind. Cause I want to see good fights earned. Not that mess yesterday. Taking nothing away from Derp cause he led good and would have done just as good in any other circumstance.
Wargs are useless in a raid. 2 at the most is all you should have. Not sure if you guys had that many yesterday, but I know we killed alot of them. Your tribe is big enough to have better classes fielded.
If you don't have 2 wl's per group start making some. Cause with freeps the way they are you need them. Manage their rezess and bubbles too. If not you lose. Is that hard? Yes at first, but with time your guys will not have to be micromanaged. Drop your banners. I can't stress this enough. Freeps are useless with out power. They will run from them like mexicans from boarder potrol. Keep the banner up on them all the time. You can actually control the battle with those babies. The first thing a WL should do when hes rezzed is drop the banner of terror if its up. Not six banners it only takes one. Micromanage those until your buddies get used to keeping them down.
1 defiler out of combat all the time. All the time. If he gets pissed at being ooc rezzing. Switch him, take turns with someone else. Blight Blight Blight. (sp) The new freep killer. Make love to it, be its friend, take it home and comb it's hair cause it's the next best thing since the wheel.
The perfect creep group for me.
Group 1 - 2
2Wls (Banners of Horror) (Micromanage rezzez and bubbles)
2Reavers (Save your DS for half to make the kill)
1Defiler (ooc rezzer that get watched and healed)
1Spider (Must have WTE) (Slows and spams dots on everybody)
Group 3
2Wls (Banners of Horror) (Micromanage rezzez and bubbles)
2Bas (Slows Slows Slows, dont waste it)
2Reavers (Save your DS for half to make the kill)(For god sake unless your bubbled run out out when low health)
Group 4
2Wls (Banners of Horror) (Micromanage rezzez and bubbles)
2Bas (Slows Slows Slows, dont waste it)
1 Warg (Scout pounce run) Your a soloer, nothing else in a raid.
1Ba (Keep minies/rk in combat)
One last thing you should get in your head. No mercy. Theres no pardons for freeps or creeps. You play to win. If your beating the snot out of freeps then too bad. This "lets work together to have fun" is not how you make it fun. All it does is become a farm fest like yesterday. Some people would argue this point with me, but my idea of fun is owning the opposition. If they leave they leave. Make it fun for the side your playing on. Who cares about the other side. Why? Cause they'll do it to you. There is no great community here that will all work in cohesion with you. Everyone is not going to agree on a certain way to PvP. The community needs enemies not friends. Working to gain infamy/renown does not stand to compare to working to win. It will make a better community and better pvpers if everyone knew when they came to the moors it was gonna be hard. Not some farm fest at a rez.
People love to hate TDH. Why? Cause we are buttheads in the game. We do things that dont flow well with the community easy mode. Freeps or creeps though, when we get together, we have fun. We make it fun for the group we are with. Trust me if im a creep, freeps will give me no quarter and want to rip my eyes out. But when I freep we knit socks and tell stories and drink ale at the Prancing Pony. Thats fun my friend. Thats fun.
/salute
Krool
“Fantasy remains a human right. We make in our measure and in our derivative mode, because we are made, and not only made, but made in the image and likeness of a Maker.” J.R.R. Tolkien
I was actually just talking about that this morning. It seems like most of the creeps in a raid are built for soloing. Too often do I see 4-5 BAs in skirm stance, running on 30 power in the tank. Sure you're going to kill me right away, but when you're out of power and I'm rezzed you're done for. Too often do I see wargs getting 1 stun off before dying and retreating when I know for a fact you have a WL, Reaver, or anything sitting on the bench. How many spiders are there on creepside now? 2? If you want to solo, by all means, solo, but if you want to go around calling people selfish, it's ridiculously hypocritical.
I'm just going to stop here, because Krool said it perfectly.
All I can say is Freeps, KOC, BBC, LOC or whatever are not unbeatable. I think the problem your having Ren, and pardon me for interupting this fine arguement, is that you are playing the Freeps game.
When Freeps have a solid raid, you dont stand toe to toe with them. In five years it has never worked. Make them play your game. Make them fight on your terms. This exchanging deaths is crazy. Yesterday to me was a farm fest. I absolutley dont know why as creeps you guys did that. I didn't even work yesterday. I just facerolled my keyboard. If you guys call that fun then so be it. But with the freeps numbers yesterday I sure wouldn't have been at a rez.
The problem I see with the creeps atm is the class make up. Is that your fault? No, but you can essentailly have the same heavy, rez, never kill group the freeps have. Heres a little advice if you dont mind. Cause I want to see good fights earned. Not that mess yesterday. Taking nothing away from Derp cause he led good and would have done just as good in any other circumstance.
Wargs are useless in a raid. 2 at the most is all you should have. Not sure if you guys had that many yesterday, but I know we killed alot of them. Your tribe is big enough to have better classes fielded.
If you don't have 2 wl's per group start making some. Cause with freeps the way they are you need them. Manage their rezess and bubbles too. If not you lose. Is that hard? Yes at first, but with time your guys will not have to be micromanaged. Drop your banners. I can't stress this enough. Freeps are useless with out power. They will run from them like mexicans from boarder potrol. Keep the banner up on them all the time. You can actually control the battle with those babies. The first thing a WL should do when hes rezzed is drop the banner of terror if its up. Not six banners it only takes one. Micromanage those until your buddies get used to keeping them down.
1 defiler out of combat all the time. All the time. If he gets pissed at being ooc rezzing. Switch him, take turns with someone else. Blight Blight Blight. (sp) The new freep killer. Make love to it, be its friend, take it home and comb it's hair cause it's the next best thing since the wheel.
The perfect creep group for me.
Group 1 - 2
2Wls (Banners of Horror) (Micromanage rezzez and bubbles)
2Reavers (Save your DS for half to make the kill)
1Defiler (ooc rezzer that get watched and healed)
1Spider (Must have WTE) (Slows and spams dots on everybody)
Group 3
2Wls (Banners of Horror) (Micromanage rezzez and bubbles)
2Bas (Slows Slows Slows, dont waste it)
2Reavers (Save your DS for half to make the kill)(For god sake unless your bubbled run out out when low health)
Group 4
2Wls (Banners of Horror) (Micromanage rezzez and bubbles)
2Bas (Slows Slows Slows, dont waste it)
1 Warg (Scout pounce run) Your a soloer, nothing else in a raid.
1Ba (Keep minies/rk in combat)
One last thing you should get in your head. No mercy. Theres no pardons for freeps or creeps. You play to win. If your beating the snot out of freeps then too bad. This "lets work together to have fun" is not how you make it fun. All it does is become a farm fest like yesterday. Some people would argue this point with me, but my idea of fun is owning the opposition. If they leave they leave. Make it fun for the side your playing on. Who cares about the other side. Why? Cause they'll do it to you. There is no great community here that will all work in cohesion with you. Everyone is not going to agree on a certain way to PvP. The community needs enemies not friends. Working to gain infamy/renown does not stand to compare to working to win. It will make a better community and better pvpers if everyone knew when they came to the moors it was gonna be hard. Not some farm fest at a rez.
People love to hate TDH. Why? Cause we are buttheads in the game. We do things that dont flow well with the community easy mode. Freeps or creeps though, when we get together, we have fun. We make it fun for the group we are with. Trust me if im a creep, freeps will give me no quarter and want to rip my eyes out. But when I freep we knit socks and tell stories and drink ale at the Prancing Pony. Thats fun my friend. Thats fun.
/salute
Krool
Thanks forthe advice Krool but folks don't want to play WL. Also why is TDH freepside anyways? People just want to play their class and I don't tell them what to play though I have asked numerous times for more WLs. Contrary to popular belief I let folks play whatever is fun for them. Thanks again for the tips. Hope to see TDh on Creepside more often. I'm not going to force people to play classes they don't want to play just to beat one kin. Why seriously did TDH go freepside?
Thanks forthe advice Krool but folks don't want to play WL. Also why is TDH freepside anyways? People just want to play their class and I don't tell them what to play though I have asked numerous times for more WLs. Contrary to popular belief I let folks play whatever is fun for them. Thanks again for the tips. Hope to see TDh on Creepside more often. I'm not going to force people to play classes they don't want to play just to beat one kin. Why seriously did TDH go freepside?
You don't have to force them. Just ask them if they wanna be the faceroller or the facerollee. The answer should be pretty obvious (if they want to be the facerollee and are having fun meanwhile then this whole thread is moot). You have several decent WLs there anyway, what I don't understand though is why some of them are doing what the reavers should be doing. Same question goes for some BAs.
Ren, we go way back and I respect you a lot, so forgive me if this comes off as rude...but if you don't want to tell people on creepside which class to play why are you telling us what class to play?
KoC didn't all roll champs 10 months ago knowing that champs would be amazing in ROI, just like I know you didn't roll a BA because you knew BAs would be ridiculous post ROI. It's not like we're all rolling out there on our champ, mini, cappy alts, those are the classes these people have been playing since the beginning. We don't all wait for each other to sign on so we can go out and stomp people, nor do we have some elaborate plan to kill creeps with our group make-up. In case you havent noticed, Civ and I are still coming out on our hunters and getting our asses handed to us. We are out there for the same reason as you, to have fun.
Thanks forthe advice Krool but folks don't want to play WL. Also why is TDH freepside anyways? People just want to play their class and I don't tell them what to play though I have asked numerous times for more WLs. Contrary to popular belief I let folks play whatever is fun for them. Thanks again for the tips. Hope to see TDh on Creepside more often. I'm not going to force people to play classes they don't want to play just to beat one kin. Why seriously did TDH go freepside?
We went freepside atm out of sheer boredom. After so 4 or 5 years we are just clinging on to this game. Making it fun in whatever way possible.
Well I understand letting people play what they want to have fun. Far be it from me to tell people what to do with their time. But ask any of tdh and they will tell ya they have classes they love to play and classes they play to raid with, or solo. The coolest thing about creeps is that your can roll out any class you want and rank it in no time. That is thier greatest strength. Honestly you can counter almost any freep group just by reorganizing your raid set up. And they way the store is now and pve infamy you can have a good viable creep in a day or two really.
Creeps wanting to raid need to keep in mind they are in a raid as a team. Not a solo kb master or glas cannon. Creep groups depend on the ability to be flexible. Besides staying on a creep for rank is really a moot point anyway. You can buy whatever skills you need and by rank 4 or 5 in a raid your raid ready anyway.
To be honest really, the night you came over and asked for a curtesy wipe or something. I was leading. KoC was only part of the scenario. Most of the raid was from all different kins. So its just not KoC your fighting. They are able to field a pretty balanced freep group alone yes, but as far as the blame for not coming to the rez and taking lugs that was all my decision. The no mercy thing you can say.
I say step back. Take a look at why you play either side and realize your just put 14.99 or whatever into this game and by george your gonna get your moneys worth. You be suprised at how well a PvP community works with the dog eat dog attitude.
/salute
Krool
“Fantasy remains a human right. We make in our measure and in our derivative mode, because we are made, and not only made, but made in the image and likeness of a Maker.” J.R.R. Tolkien
We went freepside atm out of sheer boredom. After so 4 or 5 years we are just clinging on to this game. Making it fun in whatever way possible.
Well I understand letting people play what they want to have fun. Far be it from me to tell people what to do with their time. But ask any of tdh and they will tell ya they have classes they love to play and classes they play to raid with, or solo. The coolest thing about creeps is that your can roll out any class you want and rank it in no time. That is thier greatest strength. Honestly you can counter almost any freep group just by reorganizing your raid set up. And they way the store is now and pve infamy you can have a good viable creep in a day or two really.
Creeps wanting to raid need to keep in mind they are in a raid as a team. Not a solo kb master or glas cannon. Creep groups depend on the ability to be flexible. Besides staying on a creep for rank is really a moot point anyway. You can buy whatever skills you need and by rank 4 or 5 in a raid your raid ready anyway.
To be honest really, the night you came over and asked for a curtesy wipe or something. I was leading. KoC was only part of the scenario. Most of the raid was from all different kins. So its just not KoC your fighting. They are able to field a pretty balanced freep group alone yes, but as far as the blame for not coming to the rez and taking lugs that was all my decision. The no mercy thing you can say.
I say step back. Take a look at why you play either side and realize your just put 14.99 or whatever into this game and by george your gonna get your moneys worth. You be suprised at how well a PvP community works with the dog eat dog attitude.
/salute
Krool
Well that takes the cake lol. Epic fail land for me. Apologies all around especially to Apward and KoC. Leadership indeed looks like I should hang up my hat. I guess you can lose the moors. I just did everything everyone said was right and I was clearly wrong. I should just stay off the forums all together. Sorry again to everyone.
All I can say is Freeps, KOC, BBC, LOC or whatever are not unbeatable. I think the problem your having Ren, and pardon me for interupting this fine arguement, is that you are playing the Freeps game.
When Freeps have a solid raid, you dont stand toe to toe with them. In five years it has never worked. Make them play your game. Make them fight on your terms. This exchanging deaths is crazy. Yesterday to me was a farm fest. I absolutley dont know why as creeps you guys did that. I didn't even work yesterday. I just facerolled my keyboard. If you guys call that fun then so be it. But with the freeps numbers yesterday I sure wouldn't have been at a rez.
The problem I see with the creeps atm is the class make up. Is that your fault? No, but you can essentailly have the same heavy, rez, never kill group the freeps have. Heres a little advice if you dont mind. Cause I want to see good fights earned. Not that mess yesterday. Taking nothing away from Derp cause he led good and would have done just as good in any other circumstance.
Wargs are useless in a raid. 2 at the most is all you should have. Not sure if you guys had that many yesterday, but I know we killed alot of them. Your tribe is big enough to have better classes fielded.
If you don't have 2 wl's per group start making some. Cause with freeps the way they are you need them. Manage their rezess and bubbles too. If not you lose. Is that hard? Yes at first, but with time your guys will not have to be micromanaged. Drop your banners. I can't stress this enough. Freeps are useless with out power. They will run from them like mexicans from boarder potrol. Keep the banner up on them all the time. You can actually control the battle with those babies. The first thing a WL should do when hes rezzed is drop the banner of terror if its up. Not six banners it only takes one. Micromanage those until your buddies get used to keeping them down.
1 defiler out of combat all the time. All the time. If he gets pissed at being ooc rezzing. Switch him, take turns with someone else. Blight Blight Blight. (sp) The new freep killer. Make love to it, be its friend, take it home and comb it's hair cause it's the next best thing since the wheel.
The perfect creep group for me.
Group 1 - 2
2Wls (Banners of Horror) (Micromanage rezzez and bubbles)
2Reavers (Save your DS for half to make the kill)
1Defiler (ooc rezzer that get watched and healed)
1Spider (Must have WTE) (Slows and spams dots on everybody)
Group 3
2Wls (Banners of Horror) (Micromanage rezzez and bubbles)
2Bas (Slows Slows Slows, dont waste it)
2Reavers (Save your DS for half to make the kill)(For god sake unless your bubbled run out out when low health)
Group 4
2Wls (Banners of Horror) (Micromanage rezzez and bubbles)
2Bas (Slows Slows Slows, dont waste it)
1 Warg (Scout pounce run) Your a soloer, nothing else in a raid.
1Ba (Keep minies/rk in combat)
One last thing you should get in your head. No mercy. Theres no pardons for freeps or creeps. You play to win. If your beating the snot out of freeps then too bad. This "lets work together to have fun" is not how you make it fun. All it does is become a farm fest like yesterday. Some people would argue this point with me, but my idea of fun is owning the opposition. If they leave they leave. Make it fun for the side your playing on. Who cares about the other side. Why? Cause they'll do it to you. There is no great community here that will all work in cohesion with you. Everyone is not going to agree on a certain way to PvP. The community needs enemies not friends. Working to gain infamy/renown does not stand to compare to working to win. It will make a better community and better pvpers if everyone knew when they came to the moors it was gonna be hard. Not some farm fest at a rez.
People love to hate TDH. Why? Cause we are buttheads in the game. We do things that dont flow well with the community easy mode. Freeps or creeps though, when we get together, we have fun. We make it fun for the group we are with. Trust me if im a creep, freeps will give me no quarter and want to rip my eyes out. But when I freep we knit socks and tell stories and drink ale at the Prancing Pony. Thats fun my friend. Thats fun.
Good post Krool. I've gotten into the warg raid arguement several times in game (and commented about it on forums as well). People get defensive and don't like hearing advice /shrug. One of the reasons I hardly ever raid let alone pug raid these days.
@Oldin - so true on solo vs raid and BA in particular (keen eye +VT = win...and hey I have enough power to kill another target lol)
This server is so small that I think its going to be hard for creeps to consistently put up much of a fight RvR. The number of freeps in Crick moors these days is more than double the number of ranked creeps (rank6+) atm. This servers history at ranked creeps actually sticking around and fighting CONSISTENTLY is very poor. Chiron and a handful of others are the only ranked creeps who are frequently out there. Without consistency and critical mass you will never see creepside field cohesive raids on a consistent basis.....and the "farm fests" will continue.
the moors didn't seem to be as much fun as usual yesterday... there seemed to be far too many freeps out there vs ranked up creeps when I was on, and even I wouldn't consider myself ranked up enough... plus, there were a lot of moments where I'd have a burg HiPS, a capt LS, and minstrel flop... needless to say, far too many kills just out of my reach, but that's how it goes I guess...
also, the continuing multiple burg camping-fest going on outside our rez circle is certainly getting me annoyed enough to roll a warg instead, and repay the group-on-one ganks in full... but until then, I guess I'll just keep solo flanking to death when the #### hits the fan... we need more creeps out there, dang it!
Does it really matter? Many people complain about having keeps flipped because of rez circles. Many of those same players complain about people hiding in NPC's. If the opposition takes your rez circle(s) what gives you the right to blame them for you logging off? If you log off it's your choice. Don't pin it on those who are stronger on the field at that time.
I'm not sure if your post is directed at me, since I brought it up in the other thread. Seems a little passive aggressive if it is, but here's my response either way.
The terrain is more favorable for creeps to fight in around the lugz res circle. And I don't just mean orc camp. There are a lot of great battles at the Y-roads, river OP, cow fields, etc. And that's all made possible by creeps having that res.
If this were actually a war that mattered, it would make sense to go cap it to screw over the creeps. But it doesn't matter; You can't win the moors. Everyone's goal is basically to earn infamy in a competitive way, and have fun doing it.
However the logic is such that, if you had enough of an advantage to capture Lugz, then the creeps are losing. Further disadvantaging them is going to prompt people to logoff, in which case there won't be a battle at all. I haven't done a serious poll, but most people I talk to agree that when there is nobody out there to kill, it is pretty boring. Therefore both sides should take care to even out the fight enough that the other side will keep playing.
Professional sports teams put in backups when they're blowing out another team. Recreational sports leagues usually give teams an extra player or other advantage when they're being smoked. The Dread Pirate Roberts fights left-handed. Don't mistake me I am not asking for a courtesy wipe, but sportmanship is an honorable venture.
The ideal behavior I would seek is basically what happened earlier tonight. Creeps were getting owned for awhile outside of GV. Coordination was poor etc etc. Leadership changed and we started doing a lot better. Freeps were getting wiped, freeps wiped several times. The lead (lol krool) gave them back TR with no contest then had creeps push into the NPC's there. Creeps almost wiped, heck Krool called it a wipe... Freeps ended up losing (creeps had a huge numbers advantage like 24:16) but I guarantee they got a lot more kills than they would have if we had sat outside GV and taunted them with rude pet names.
------
The whole KoC (or really anyone) abusing class-makeup thing ren brought up is just misplaced anger on his part. I don't think there's any concerted effort to stack the deck with certain classes, it just worked out that way. In my opinion turbine made a lot of great PvE changes without considering and/or addressing their impact on PvP. I've whined a lot in creep chat too, but the fault lies with Turbine, not KoC, not TDH.
If a mini wants to screw us out of a kill by flopping for the zillionth time, frankly I expect that, they should do that I don't want freebies. If TDH wants to play freepside we should let them without saying anything. Why shouldn't they be able to do what they want? If you want to go play your hunter while creeps are being steamrolled i won't yell at you. If KoC ninja caps lugs every night for the next week, I am not going to write a qq post. The only reason I wrote anything to begin with was Jeenius asked. Players doing whatever they want is not exactly in the best interest of keeping the moors population going, but C'est la vie. At least we can corpse jump them after the fact.
I'm not sure if your post is directed at me, since I brought it up in the other thread. Seems a little passive aggressive if it is, but here's my response either way.
The terrain is more favorable for creeps to fight in around the lugz res circle. And I don't just mean orc camp. There are a lot of great battles at the Y-roads, river OP, cow fields, etc. And that's all made possible by creeps having that res.
If this were actually a war that mattered, it would make sense to go cap it to screw over the creeps. But it doesn't matter; You can't win the moors. Everyone's goal is basically to earn infamy in a competitive way, and have fun doing it.
However the logic is such that, if you had enough of an advantage to capture Lugz, then the creeps are losing. Further disadvantaging them is going to prompt people to logoff, in which case there won't be a battle at all. I haven't done a serious poll, but most people I talk to agree that when there is nobody out there to kill, it is pretty boring. Therefore both sides should take care to even out the fight enough that the other side will keep playing.
Professional sports teams put in backups when they're blowing out another team. Recreational sports leagues usually give teams an extra player or other advantage when they're being smoked. The Dread Pirate Roberts fights left-handed. Don't mistake me I am not asking for a courtesy wipe, but sportmanship is an honorable venture.
The ideal behavior I would seek is basically what happened earlier tonight. Creeps were getting owned for awhile outside of GV. Coordination was poor etc etc. Leadership changed and we started doing a lot better. Freeps were getting wiped, freeps wiped several times. The lead (lol krool) gave them back TR with no contest then had creeps push into the NPC's there. Creeps almost wiped, heck Krool called it a wipe... Freeps ended up losing (creeps had a huge numbers advantage like 24:16) but I guarantee they got a lot more kills than they would have if we had sat outside GV and taunted them with rude pet names.
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The whole KoC (or really anyone) abusing class-makeup thing ren brought up is just misplaced anger on his part. I don't think there's any concerted effort to stack the deck with certain classes, it just worked out that way. In my opinion turbine made a lot of great PvE changes without considering and/or addressing their impact on PvP. I've whined a lot in creep chat too, but the fault lies with Turbine, not KoC, not TDH.
If a mini wants to screw us out of a kill by flopping for the zillionth time, frankly I expect that, they should do that I don't want freebies. If TDH wants to play freepside we should let them without saying anything. Why shouldn't they be able to do what they want? If you want to go play your hunter while creeps are being steamrolled i won't yell at you. If KoC ninja caps lugs every night for the next week, I am not going to write a qq post. The only reason I wrote anything to begin with was Jeenius asked. Players doing whatever they want is not exactly in the best interest of keeping the moors population going, but C'est la vie. At least we can corpse jump them after the fact.
Well put. I don't agree with the whole sportsmanship thing though. Like I said before, if someone logs off because of something someone else did then it's on them.
I remember when Mortal Kombat II came out and it was a nice gesture to use a friendship instead of a fatality but in the end, you embarrassed you opponent and they had to cough up more quarters or step away from the machine. You win some, you lose some. You don't complain and tell the other person how to play that way you can have an advantage.
Overall your posting was a good read and I do not believe in sarcasm so take it as a compliment.
One more thing, the Dread Pirate Roberts (Wesley) may fight left handed at times, but in the end he will use whichever hand he needs to win the fight. Was it fair that Wesley poisoned both goblets with iocane powder when involved in a battle of wits against Vizzini? No it wasn't fair, it was a no win situation for Vizzini but Wesley got the girl
the moors didn't seem to be as much fun as usual yesterday... there seemed to be far too many freeps out there vs ranked up creeps when I was on, and even I wouldn't consider myself ranked up enough... plus, there were a lot of moments where I'd have a burg HiPS, a capt LS, and minstrel flop... needless to say, far too many kills just out of my reach, but that's how it goes I guess...
also, the continuing multiple burg camping-fest going on outside our rez circle is certainly getting me annoyed enough to roll a warg instead, and repay the group-on-one ganks in full... but until then, I guess I'll just keep solo flanking to death when the #### hits the fan... we need more creeps out there, dang it!
Yesterday the freeps came out to kill the GM's. After they came out they stayed. I saw the burg pack too and being a player who played creep first it made me shiver. Maps ftw and trust me, rolling a warg will only get you killed quicker. The burgs out stealth you unless you purchase tracking.
I missed most of it yesterday but can say that action has been picking up only to come to a crawl now that U5 is coming out in a few hours. See you out there...
Well said and +rep if I could give it (can't atm).
Taking Lugs is always a shady business. Half the time post-RoI the groups I've been in only kill the tyrant because they think there will be more fights to had. In general, in my experience, groups I'm in take Lugs when it's obvious there will be no more good fights, there are way too few creeps left, and the freeps plan to log soon after that anyway.
One last thing you should get in your head. No mercy. Theres no pardons for freeps or creeps. You play to win. If your beating the snot out of freeps then too bad. This "lets work together to have fun" is not how you make it fun. All it does is become a farm fest like yesterday. Some people would argue this point with me, but my idea of fun is owning the opposition. If they leave they leave. Make it fun for the side your playing on. Who cares about the other side. Why? Cause they'll do it to you. There is no great community here that will all work in cohesion with you. Everyone is not going to agree on a certain way to PvP. The community needs enemies not friends. Working to gain infamy/renown does not stand to compare to working to win. It will make a better community and better pvpers if everyone knew when they came to the moors it was gonna be hard. Not some farm fest at a rez.
People love to hate TDH. Why? Cause we are buttheads in the game. We do things that dont flow well with the community easy mode. Freeps or creeps though, when we get together, we have fun. We make it fun for the group we are with. Trust me if im a creep, freeps will give me no quarter and want to rip my eyes out. But when I freep we knit socks and tell stories and drink ale at the Prancing Pony. Thats fun my friend. Thats fun.
/salute
Krool
Well said. We need animosity. That's what PvP is all about! Otherwise, stick to spars at Galtrev...
So I can say: I hate Krool, but I don't hate Kroolbeard. =)
Master of the "Five Point Palm Exploding Heart Technique"
So not sure what turbine was thinking with this last update. They've pretty much destroyed any remaining semblance of balance 1v1 creeps/freeps. Joining a zerg to fight freeps is not my thing, and playing freepside atm would be super boring (faceroll =/= fun).....so my creepies are going into retirement (other than to pop on now and then to chat with folks).
I'll be hitting swtor for anyone else giving it a try, while waiting for GW2. Probably west coast PvP server. Was originally going to go empire, but may go republic now as they need the numbers (shorter cue times and target rich environment ftw! ).
I don't think group make-up will make a difference, Krool. Especially when the average creep rank is 3.5-4 on Crick, there's just no way to beat an equally large group of freeps. Even on other servers, freeps are dominating - and there the creeps have higher average rankings. The only servers where creeps are doing well are the ones with massive populations, where people have been playing since the start of the game.
Leadership also is not the issue. How many decisions can a leader make?
1. Where to fight
2. When to fight
3. Who to kill first, second, etc
Freeps simply out-class the creeps in terms of nearly everything. Their stealth class is better. Their heavy class is better. Their melee dps class is better. CC class is a toss-up. Perhaps the ranged dps class is better on creepside. Added to that the fact that even with the ability to puchase skills, only a small percentage of creeps actually has.
I think that this game will go on as people move to other games. It's still a good game - and I hope to come back when I get bored of the other games. Maybe PvMP will balance out by then. But, I'm not holding my breath...
Leadership also is not the issue. How many decisions can a leader make?
1. Where to fight
2. When to fight
3. Who to kill first, second, etc
^This is not right
Whether to fight or flank
rethink what you will do when you engage them
Assign people tasks to do to further help the raid (assign wls with whose bubbles go first along with their rezes)
Strategise who you will kill first and try to mark them
Try to keep raid spirits up after a wipe
Tell a joke or 2 about how the other side hides in NPCs or tell people how much u wanna kiss thier feet after they do what u want and it works out
and probubly the most important PREDICT where you think the enemy will be heading
EDIT: whether to kick people or not if they dont do what u ask them to do
its not just 3 questions to ask yourself theres alot more to leadership in a raid
Last edited by Derpon; Dec 15 2011 at 06:47 AM.
Life is not a paradise, it's a pair of dice, so watch the ones you're rollin with
Yesterday the freeps came out to kill the GM's. After they came out they stayed. I saw the burg pack too and being a player who played creep first it made me shiver. Maps ftw and trust me, rolling a warg will only get you killed quicker. The burgs out stealth you unless you purchase tracking.
I missed most of it yesterday but can say that action has been picking up only to come to a crawl now that U5 is coming out in a few hours. See you out there...
U5 gave a toggle skill that gives +25% out of combat speed at the expense of all avoidance, so there's an interesting improvement... plus, multiples of the same corruption traits allow for mitigation stacking, as I saw when I re-traited...
as for the burg packs, I have much more respect for the burgs that are on the move supporting their group, versus the ones that camp outside rez circles for easy kills... but hey, nothing one can do about cowardly tactics, I guess... I'll probably just stick to my reaver for damage, even if I'll always be at risk from those stuns and backstabs...
I hear the GMs will be on freepside... and like a true reaver, I'll probably run in swinging to certain death... my lack of stars justifies this...
Last edited by Aztec_Soul; Dec 16 2011 at 11:59 AM.
as for the burg packs, I have much more respect for the burgs that are on the move supporting their group, versus the ones that camp outside rez circles for easy kills... but hey, nothing one can do about cowardly tactics, I guess......
There was once a kingdom where all the people were starving and cold. They blamed their king and threatened to dethrone him. They were all quite angry that they were hungry and cold. When the king caught word of this he got scared of an uprising so he built a barn. In this barn he filled it with food, drink, and many fire places. He invited the whole town to this barn in an attempt to make them happy. Once they were inside and eating and warm they forgot about their troubles. Then the king locked the door and burned the barn down. Everyone inside died.
Whats my point to this story? Be the hammer not the nail. I run solo to small group so I look for solo to small group fights. Im not gonna let your zergball kill me and my one or two group members. Don't like the way i do it? Tough titty. Call me out on a 1v1 because I would be happy to accept it from anyone that doesn't like what I do.
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Originally Posted by AlmontRaider
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“Fantasy remains a human right. We make in our measure and in our derivative mode, because we are made, and not only made, but made in the image and likeness of a Maker.” J.R.R. Tolkien
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Re: The Battlefield We Fight On...
+rep
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