Thread: Evil Dwarves ??

If dwarves could not be corrupted by evil, then is it against lore to have the dourhands be evil in LOTRO?

If i remember right, Elrond talked about that in Rivendell: There were Dwarves on both sides, some fought with Saurons armies, and some on the side of the last alliance.
They coulnd't be corrupted, that's true, but they were greedy. In the Silmarillion, dwarves killed king Thingol and stole the Nauglamir from him.
So, they might not be corrupted by such things like rings (Though I wouldn't be sure if the one ring wouldn't be to powerful, even for a dwarf.), but their greed can lead them to evil sides.

I think that the actual lore is that dwarves cannot become wraiths through the corruption of the rings, as the men did. However, the rings given to the dwarves caused excess greed, which led to violence and moral corruption, even if they couldn't become wraiths.

Agreeing with others, it's more about corruption from the rings than anything else. The rings amplify desires which is why only the Hobbits can carry the One Ring for extended periods.

Men desired power and longer life as they were the shortest lived of the folks in Middle Earth
Dwarves desire riches and so the rings enhance that and exploit that.
The Hobbits however want nothing more than a good smoke and some fine cheese. They don't have global ambitions so the Ring cannot corrupt them in the same manner. Over a long, long time it can happen (but that was the ONE RING, not standard Rings of Power).

This was one of the more interesting points of a Tolkien class I took in college.

Dwarves fought for Sauron during the War of the Last Alliance. Yes, this is from the Silmarillion, which Turbine does not have the license for, but I don't think that means that they shouldn't try to stay true to it, when possible. Since dwarves have already fought for evil, I assume it could happen again.

They may have been uncorruptable by evil, but their greed and their pride could push them into doing deeds that could be seen as evil nonetheless. The Dourhands aren't really in league with Angmar because "we are evil, we want to see the world burn, fear us!" To them, this is just a way to regain their pride, to bring glory to their house under the leadership of their "newly returned" Lord; Angmar is obviously taking advantage of this desire, and the Dourhands' belief in the return of Skorgrim, to bring them under their banner.

The dwarves fighting for Sauron during the War of the Last Alliance were never elaborated upon, save for the mention that they were not Longbeards, but I imagine it would in some sense have been comparable. Sauron probably did not go out and say to them "join me in my evil ways", but rather, play at the dwarves' greed and pride, tricking them into doing his bidding.

Some dwarves fought for Sauron, but none of them are from Durin's Folk. Dwarves of Nogrod killed King Thingol of Doriath and sacked the city. I imagine the Dourhands are somehow descended from these "evil" dwarves.

Originally Posted by Thendrail

If i remember right, Elrond talked about that in Rivendell: There were Dwarves on both sides, some fought with Saurons armies, and some on the side of the last alliance.
They coulnd't be corrupted, that's true, but they were greedy.

They might not have been evil as such but they'd have to have been thoroughly amoral to take Sauron's side.

In the Silmarillion, dwarves killed king Thingol and stole the Nauglamir from him.
So, they might not be corrupted by such things like rings (Though I wouldn't be sure if the one ring wouldn't be to powerful, even for a dwarf.), but their greed can lead them to evil sides.

I think the point was that they could be spiritually corrupted to some extent (hence the greed, which was quite capable of bringing evil about) but not physically, which was why there were no Dwarf Ring-wraiths (much to Sauron's disappointment). The Dwarves were made to be tough. Yes, obviously the One Ring would have been too much for them - I imagine they'd have tried to keep it rather than destroying something so 'precious'.

The business with the Nauglamir wasn't just about Dwarven greed, it was also a potent combination of the curse that had been placed on it and the general ill-fate that befell anyone who kept a Silmaril. Sticking the two together was just asking for trouble

Originally Posted by Mafusa

Some dwarves fought for Sauron, but none of them are from Durin's Folk. Dwarves of Nogrod killed King Thingol of Doriath and sacked the city. I imagine the Dourhands are somehow descended from these "evil" dwarves.

They couldn't be, as those particular Dwarves were all stomped flat by the Ents

The 'evil' Dwarves who'd once served Sauron would presumably have come from one of the Houses in the East.

I don't know that the Dourhands are "evil" per se; their problem seems to be with the Longbeards rather than the world in general. In the dwarven and elven intro, the original intent of the Dourhands was to resurrect Skorgrim to be their leader again--- Ivar comes in, though, and "confiscates" him, leaving the Dourhands to go their own merry way.

Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

They couldn't be, as those particular Dwarves were all stomped flat by the Ents

The 'evil' Dwarves who'd once served Sauron would presumably have come from one of the Houses in the East.

They haven't sent the entire population of Nogrod to reclaim a necklace, have they? (At least their women would stay home).

Originally Posted by Reniannen

They haven't sent the entire population of Nogrod to reclaim a necklace, have they? (At least their women would stay home).

It'd be silly to try to pretend they were all 'evil' just because their menfolk had a beef with the Elves. The Dwarves who went to war and sacked Doriath were wiped out in turn and that was evidently the end of it, as both sides had lost so much.

Originally Posted by Reniannen

They haven't sent the entire population of Nogrod to reclaim a necklace, have they? (At least their women would stay home).

My thoughts exactly, although the remaining Dwarves that fled from Beren's army got crushed by the Ents, their relatives might still live in the halls of Nogrod.

About the Dwarves that served Sauron, they might be from any of the four eastern houses. Most of the Dwarves from Ered Luin joined with the Longbeards after the destruction of Nogrod and Belegost in Khazad-Dum.

I stumbled upon the description of the Dourhands.

"The Dourhands were a clan of dwarves, invented for The Lord of the Rings Online: Shadows of Angmar. They were the dwarves that stayed behind to rebuild the Dwarven Halls in the Blue Mountains which were destroyed during the War of Wrath. They later aligned themselves with Angmar during the War of the Ring."

Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

It'd be silly to try to pretend they were all 'evil' just because their menfolk had a beef with the Elves. The Dwarves who went to war and sacked Doriath were wiped out in turn and that was evidently the end of it, as both sides had lost so much.

Wouldn't it be equally silly to pretend that those who remained in Nogrod didn't support those who went to war?

Originally Posted by Reniannen

Wouldn't it be equally silly to pretend that those who remained in Nogrod didn't support those who went to war?

Not if you're going to throw words like 'evil' around. If the Dwarves of Nogrod had really been like that collectively then the Longbeards wouldn't have let any of them come and live in Khazad-dûm after Nogrod was ruined.

The fact is, all of the Dwarves who participated in the sacking of Doriath paid the price for it. It was more of a passing madness than anything else: as I said, there was a curse on the Nauglamir and everything that followed resulted from that.

Not collectively of course, its bad to assume the halls of Nogrod are filled by "evil" dwarves. The Dwarves paid dearly, but the Dwarves of Belegost didn't partake in the sack and even tried to dissuade their cousins. After the battle of Sarn Athrad most of them fled to Khazad-Dum, fearful of the retaliation of the elves. Enmity and distrust between the Dwarves and Elves persists until Celebrimbor and the Elves came to Hollin and they befriended the Dwarves of Khazad-dum.

I think we are trying to point out that it is quite possible the Dwarves to go "evil". The have an affinity towards gold(precious gems/metals), Nauglamir with a Silmaril attached to it sure drove them into madness.

Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

Not if you're going to throw words like 'evil' around. If the Dwarves of Nogrod had really been like that collectively then the Longbeards wouldn't have let any of them come and live in Khazad-dûm after Nogrod was ruined.

The fact is, all of the Dwarves who participated in the sacking of Doriath paid the price for it. It was more of a passing madness than anything else: as I said, there was a curse on the Nauglamir and everything that followed resulted from that.

I didn't use the word evil. All I'm saying that those of Nogrod were prone to greed and the ages didn't change that. Dourhands are their descendants and they want Longbeards out of the Blue Mountains because they used to live there.

Originally Posted by Reniannen

I didn't use the word evil. All I'm saying that those of Nogrod were prone to greed and the ages didn't change that. Dourhands are their descendants and they want Longbeards out of the Blue Mountains because they used to live there.

That doesn't work, because all the Dwarves were prone to greed. And those were not normal circumstances, so saying "and the ages didn't change that" is mistaken. There was a Silmaril involved, and given the evident allure of the Silmarils and the utter mayhem that revolved around that particular MacGuffin of Tolkien's it was hardly surprising that something terrible happened. Thingol's pride proved to be his undoing.

Its unlikely that Sauron handed out all 16 rings to dwarves and men similtaneously, he may have been inadvertantly been handing out powerful weapons to his enemies that he had no control over, most likely he handed his first ring to a trusted lieutenant and observed what happened before trying to subvert men who opposed him with his gifts. So what was the deal Annatar offered the dwarves when he offered up his seven rings, it is unlikely the dwarves would not have been suspicious of being offered something for nothing in return, some treaty or exchange of crafting secrets would have had to have been made which even paints the house of Durin in a less than flattering light.

It is also likely that the dwarves of Moria knew of the guise Sauron took in Eregion due to the good relations between the elves of Hollin and Durins folk, so what guise did Sauron take when offering the dwarves their rings?. I wonder if Durins' dwarves noses were put out of joint when a Maia of Aule chose to "teach" their neighbors in Eregion rather than Aules children a stones throw away in Moria.

Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

That doesn't work, because all the Dwarves were prone to greed. And those were not normal circumstances, so saying "and the ages didn't change that" is mistaken. There was a Silmaril involved, and given the evident allure of the Silmarils and the utter mayhem that revolved around that particular MacGuffin of Tolkien's it was hardly surprising that something terrible happened. Thingol's pride proved to be his undoing.

Given that the neighbors of Belegost were against the whole business I'd say some are "proner" than others. (And Skorgrím wanted some Elven jewelry too if memory serves)

Originally Posted by Morthaur

Its unlikely that Sauron handed out all 16 rings to dwarves and men similtaneously, he may have been inadvertantly been handing out powerful weapons to his enemies that he had no control over, most likely he handed his first ring to a trusted lieutenant and observed what happened before trying to subvert men who opposed him with his gifts. So what was the deal Annatar offered the dwarves when he offered up his seven rings, it is unlikely the dwarves would not have been suspicious of being offered something for nothing in return, some treaty or exchange of crafting secrets would have had to have been made which even paints the house of Durin in a less than flattering light.

It is also likely that the dwarves of Moria knew of the guise Sauron took in Eregion due to the good relations between the elves of Hollin and Durins folk, so what guise did Sauron take when offering the dwarves their rings?. I wonder if Durins' dwarves noses were put out of joint when a Maia of Aule chose to "teach" their neighbors in Eregion rather than Aules children a stones throw away in Moria.

He had the One, of course he had control over all others (save the Three). And he might have just sent some emissaries, what boggles me is how he managed to get the rings to the Dwarves, I don't think the various houses were holding a meeting every now and then.

Originally Posted by Reniannen

He had the One, of course he had control over all others (save the Three). And he might have just sent some emissaries, what boggles me is how he managed to get the rings to the Dwarves, I don't think the various houses were holding a meeting every now and then.

The One was forged 10 years after the others so they might have been distributed already. Dwarves were secretive but not hiding underground. In any event I doubt Sauron would go around handing out rings with the sales pitch of 'be my slave, just put this on'... the rings tempt you with what you want most and Sauron would use that to his advantage using whatever lies and flattery it took.

Its stated in the Silmarilion that after the death of Celebrimbor, Sauron "gathered" the 16 rings before handing them out to the men and dwarves, if he gathered them from owners who had them from Celebrimbor first before redistributing them seems to major a task to complete in the ten years you describe.

Originally Posted by Reniannen

Given that the neighbors of Belegost were against the whole business I'd say some are "proner" than others.

It wasn't as simple as that. The Elves hunted down and killed all but two of the fleeing Dwarven master-craftsmen; those two lied to their fellows when they reached Nogrod, saying that Thingol had ordered that they be slain rather than rewarding them for their work. The Dwarves of Nogrod then went half-mad with grief and rage, tearing at their beards and wailing and thereafter, thinking of nothing but vengeance. It all goes back to the actions of the craftsmen, the ones who'd actually seen the Silmaril and so wanted it for themselves. The Dwarves of Belegost hadn't lost any of their own kin and so saw things in a different light, all right, because they could think rationally about it.

The Silmarils brought about all kinds of mayhem of which this was only one example, and so the point remains that you shouldn't judge a people's normal behaviour by what they did while caught up in that epic cycle of ill-fate and doom.

Originally Posted by Morthaur

Its stated in the Silmarilion that after the death of Celebrimbor, Sauron "gathered" the 16 rings before handing them out to the men and dwarves, if he gathered them from owners who had them from Celebrimbor first before redistributing them seems to major a task to complete in the ten years you describe.

Right you are, Sauron must have really laid on the you-know-what to get the Dwarves attention. Men - easy - you want power and long life ? Here you go. Dwarves ? Not sure what the sales pitch would be there, especially to the dwarves of Moria. Maybe he went with an argument along the lines of the Elves don't want you to have your rightful place and power in Middle-earth, yada yada, so they wanted to keep all the Rings to themselves, etc. Very similar to what he did to turn Ar-Pharazon against the West and the Eldar with the immortality issue.

Originally Posted by Erumellion

This was one of the more interesting points of a Tolkien class I took in college.

Damn! - I definitely went to the wrong college.

I never understood why Turbine incorporated the Dourhands in the game. There is no mention at all of evil dwarves in the Third Age during the War of the Ring in the books. Men and Hobbits fight bandits in the early epic quests, this fits fine with the story. Dwarves and elves should have fought orcs and goblins IMO instead of some made-up evil dwarf race.

Originally Posted by MannyCalavera

I never understood why Turbine incorporated the Dourhands in the game. There is no mention at all of evil dwarves in the Third Age during the War of the Ring in the books. Men and Hobbits fight bandits in the early epic quests, this fits fine with the story. Dwarves and elves should have fought orcs and goblins IMO instead of some made-up evil dwarf race.

It's a big stretch to something that does occur in the books. I don't see any real reason to get worked up over it when there are far worse things in-game that warrant it.

I recall reading somewhere that the Longbeards had a tradition or whatever that the ring of Durin was presented to him directly by Celebrimbor (I think) and not from the hand of Sauron. I can't for the life of me recall where that was, but I know I read it. If true, that would explain how the Longbeards wound up with a ring when they had to know full well who and what Sauron was at the time he started giving rings to the other races.

As to there being evil dwarves...we've seen evil elves, evil men, evil hobbits so why not dwarves? /shrug It's one change I didn't question too much. It makes sense in light of the larger world that at least one substantial subset of dwarves would be that way. Since Tolkien deals only with the Longbeards in the LOTR era, it's kinda up to the beholder to figure out where and when they might be.

maybe they're not evil, just misunderstood ........

Originally Posted by Mulkfather

we've seen evil elves...

I assume you're refering to Feanor and/or Maeglin? Feanor definitely doesn't qualify as evil. As for Maeglin: I wouldn't call him 'evil' either. There was 'something strange' about his desire for Idril which is attributed to "an evil fruit of the Kinslaying, whereby the shadow of the curse of Mandos fell upon the last hope of the Noldor" but I'd hardly call it evil.

If selling out the last hope of your people and getting your uncle (Turgon was his uncle, right? I think I am recalling that right, that his mom was Aredhel, Turgon's sister) and a whole slew of other elves kill because you want to marry your cousin isn't evil, I'm not sure what qualifies. The whole reason he ran afoul of Morgoth is because he didn't obey the king's edict not to pass the leaguer of the hills around Gondolin. /shrug So he is a lawbreaker, murderer, treasonous and whatever else you want to append to his name. He was threatened with torture and all of that, so perhaps there is a mitigating factor at work, but at the end, you are judged by your actions, not your intentions and it seems that it was the offer of Idril as a wife was what tipped him in favor of betraying Gondolin.

Same reasoning behind calling Feanor evil, at least toward the end. He wanted his gems back so badly he killed the Teleri indiscriminately, then abandoned his half-brother and most of his immediate kin on the shore because he didn't want to delay in seeking his revenge. He became like Morgoth in order to catch him and he led his sons into folly and betrayal that was mourned ever after. Maglor is the only one of the seven who appears to have had a change of heart.

Originally Posted by Mulkfather

Same reasoning behind calling Feanor evil, at least toward the end. He wanted his gems back so badly he killed the Teleri indiscriminately, then abandoned his half-brother and most of his immediate kin on the shore because he didn't want to delay in seeking his revenge. He became like Morgoth in order to catch him and he led his sons into folly and betrayal that was mourned ever after. Maglor is the only one of the seven who appears to have had a change of heart.

As I see it, Feanor had gone mad when he found his father dead and the Silmarils stolen, but in his insanity his words acquired a mad glamour that led the Noldor to follow him. Certainly by the end he'd gone completely nuts, because Tolkien describes him as having turned fey and he appeared to be seeking his own death. The point is that you can't really apply terms like 'evil' to someone who's lost their reason. The others had no such excuse, of course, his sons least of all: their deeds were even worse than his.

So, from your point of view Morgoth and Sauron weren't evil too. They just tryed hard to convince the folks of Middle Earth in their ways. Some persuative techniquess included wars, tortures and mass murders but this was just a way of convincing others their view of the New Middle Earth Order is better. Nothing evil involed...

Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

As I see it, Feanor had gone mad when he found his father dead and the Silmarils stolen, but in his insanity his words acquired a mad glamour that led the Noldor to follow him. Certainly by the end he'd gone completely nuts, because Tolkien describes him as having turned fey and he appeared to be seeking his own death. The point is that you can't really apply terms like 'evil' to someone who's lost their reason. The others had no such excuse, of course, his sons least of all: their deeds were even worse than his.

I see your point about Feanor, though I'm not sure he went completely bonkers until he had reached Middle Earth and begun the attack of Morgoth. For the sake of it though, I'll agree that someone who is insane is hard to hold responsible for his actions. I'll also agree that his sons were more culpable than he was; they had centuries longer to consider and turn away from the Oath, and they perpetrated some truly foul acts in pursuit of the fulfillment of it.

So, yeah, evil Elves. We has them. Or had them anyway.

What would be a truly interesting argument is whether it would be possible for a troll, an orc, or a dragon could turn good. The way Tolkien set up his world, I doubt it, but it's an interesting concept to explore.

Originally Posted by Mulkfather

I see your point about Feanor, though I'm not sure he went completely bonkers until he had reached Middle Earth and begun the attack of Morgoth. For the sake of it though, I'll agree that someone who is insane is hard to hold responsible for his actions. I'll also agree that his sons were more culpable than he was; they had centuries longer to consider and turn away from the Oath, and they perpetrated some truly foul acts in pursuit of the fulfillment of it.

So, yeah, evil Elves. We has them. Or had them anyway.

What would be a truly interesting argument is whether it would be possible for a troll, an orc, or a dragon could turn good. The way Tolkien set up his world, I doubt it, but it's an interesting concept to explore.

It's important to remember the importance of an oath in worlds like Tolkien's. You were bound by them and could not just walk away when it became convenient. As an example, look at the Oath-breakers in Return of the King. Only Isildur or his heir could release them from their obligation. As written by Tolkien

'They swore an oath which none shall break, and none should take, by the name even of Ilúvatar, calling the Everlasting Dark upon them if they kept it not; and Manwë they named in witness, and Varda, and the hallowed mountain of Taniquetil, vowing to pursue with vengeance and hatred to the ends of the World Vala, Demon, Elf or Man as yet unborn, or any creature, great or small, good or evil, that time should bring forth unto the end of days, whoso should hold or take or keep a Silmaril from their possession..'

'For so sworn, good or evil, an oath may not be broken, and it shall pursue oathkeeper and oathbreaker to the world's end.'

In our modern world it's not justification for their deeds but in these tales it's a choice between your oath and some sort of eternal damnation. When Thingol and later Dior refused to hand over the jewel, they essentially declared themselves enemies of the Feanorians. Neither Thingol or his house had any part in the making of the jewels either so their claim was simply 'possession'. To fulfill their oath they had no choice but to use force.

As for good orcs - I believe Tolkien struggled with this idea. If they have free will, they should have a soul, then they have the chance of redemption, however, these creatures were always portrayed as irremediably evil or, at best, unconcerned with anyone's fate other than themselves. There's some interesting reading in Morgoth's Ring on Tolkien's various conceptions of Orcs and their origins. In one essay he suggests that because they were creations of Morgoth and not Iluvatar they had a sort of robotic free-will. They had a certain amount of independence of action, but it was always subject to the designs of Morgoth. I think of it as similar to Asimov's Three Laws of Robotics. An evil and destructive set of guiding principles for these creatures to follow.

Originally Posted by tuor66

To fulfill their oath they had no choice but to use force.

The trouble with that is that they didn't simply use force, they committed what we'd call war crimes, with the massacre at the Havens of Sirion being the worst. They went beyond even what the Oath bound them to, dreadful though it was.

Originally Posted by Mulkfather

What would be a truly interesting argument is whether it would be possible for a troll, an orc, or a dragon could turn good. The way Tolkien set up his world, I doubt it, but it's an interesting concept to explore.

Despite what the characters themselves say on the subject, I'm not immediately recalling any man, dwarf, or elf who had been significantly evil more than briefly who actually later earned redemption, but then I haven't researched that either.

Tolkien book The Book of Lost Tales, states that their were Dwarves Mercenaries that work for the Orcs long ago.

Originally Posted by Paco105

Tolkien book The Book of Lost Tales, states that their were Dwarves Mercenaries that work for the Orcs long ago.

You can't rely on BoLT alone, the material's too old for that.

Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

The trouble with that is that they didn't simply use force, they committed what we'd call war crimes, with the massacre at the Havens of Sirion being the worst. They went beyond even what the Oath bound them to, dreadful though it was.

I would agree, they did use the oath as justification for excessive brutality.

"Evil dwarves came to being through an interbreeding program with spawns of Ungolianth, the servant of Morgoth. The first prototypes had six legs that were bitten off by orcs who were hungry after the great battle in which The Great Enemy was taken into captivity" - from Letter to C.S.Lewis from J.R.R.Tolkien (may,1965).