Thread: Hey Orion can we hear about update 6 yet? :)

Orion i don't ask direct questions but i have to..

In the name of PVP WARDENS ; the changes over masteries in your mind means we can not access every masteries ?? ( not the ones for potency i mean the core old ones)
So like most pvp wardens when we focus 5 spear or 5 shield line we will not be able to acquire the other line masteries or do we have to waste 2 more class traits to acquire those masteries like used to be?

This means a heavy unintended nerf to pvp wardens.In pve single button mashing might be ok but in pvp nope this would kill the class ; beware please don't overlook pvp wardens.For many in my server pvp is only thing the reason they play their warden as well as the game and im one of them.All the masteries are must have for pvp cause every secs counts and no targets stand still.

I'm looking forward to your work you're currently the best dev we got with proper communication skills and good understanding of the playerbase.

First 2 sound great (will fist get turned into ranged dps, since you listed only 3 roles?)

last one, im sure you have a plan for it to work out, im just concerned with how battle preperation will work then (and how pvp wardens like myself could get by, i.e. building SM (ST when its fixed), WT, and other longer gambits from ranged). Can you only build up sp-fi or sp-sh beforehand when spear traited? doesnt seem to have a point then. If you could build SM and activate it before combat it would be different, but thats not what im getting.

also, the post above me

Originally Posted by Ellery01

I do want agree that it seems like Orion really can't win with you guys. Orion is far and away the most responsive class Dev lotro has. He's willing to discuss his plans and ideas, concerns people have and generally makes an attempt to be as transparent as possible. Every other class pretty much wishes Orion was their dev (or maybe just hunters and RKs, but still :P).

You guys owe him an even bigger thanks for taking the ridiculous detractors in stride and not letting it stop him from trying to fulfill his role as the mediator and designer for the mechanics of your class.

I wouldn't be surprised if Orion actually gets a lot of good ideas from the discussions that ensue when he puts out teasers like this. Some of the player suggestions are pretty interesting, and I bet they shed some light in unexpected ways how players might benefit (or suffer) from what they think the teaser's changes would be. This is likely to be valuable feedback to any dev.

Originally Posted by Orion

So, everyone commenting on masteries is reading way too much into the statement.

Yes, yes, old news. It's always like that. Was anyone surprised?

But that still doesn't answer my statement/challenge;
Minstrels in harmony are essentially gambit-building mini wardens!

Originally Posted by jaxom101

I dont mean to start anything here but your Sig is a Captian. Any TRUE Warden would never do that.

Such rubbish. Everyone knows epic NPC quotes are the only thing to put into a signature...

Originally Posted by -Aelg-

Yes, yes, old news. It's always like that. Was anyone surprised?

But that still doesn't answer my statement/challenge;
Minstrels in harmony are essentially gambit-building mini wardens!

Yes but WITHOUT Masteries. See you dont really need them.

Originally Posted by jaxom101

Yes but WITHOUT Masteries. See you dont really need them.

Well minstrels can never be true wardens, no matter how hard they try...

Originally Posted by Orion

1) Three distinct modes of play with a fourth generic mode. (Tank, Melee DPS, and Ranged DPS)

Originally Posted by Orion

Correct. Hence the reason that I have it listed first. Tank is your primary role. The other two are secondary.

Tank into Melee DPS into Ranged DPS. To be honest, I don't even recall reading "melee DPS" in the character creation screen. Wasn't it just Tank and Ranged DPS? Please remove all the melee gambits and clicky ranged skills - then introduce ranged gambits and a few clicky melee skills.

Originally Posted by -Aelg-

Well minstrels can never be true wardens, no matter how hard they try...

Very true but right now they can be better tanks...

Originally Posted by MeLoWaR

Orion i don't ask direct questions but i have to..

In the name of PVP WARDENS ; the changes over masteries in your mind means we can not access every masteries ?? ( not the ones for potency i mean the core old ones)
So like most pvp wardens when we focus 5 spear or 5 shield line we will not be able to acquire the other line masteries or do we have to waste 2 more class traits to acquire those masteries like used to be?

This means a heavy unintended nerf to pvp wardens.In pve single button mashing might be ok but in pvp nope this would kill the class ; beware please don't overlook pvp wardens.For many in my server pvp is only thing the reason they play their warden as well as the game and im one of them.All the masteries are must have for pvp cause every secs counts and no targets stand still.

I'm looking forward to your work you're currently the best dev we got with proper communication skills and good understanding of the playerbase.

I wonder if simply increasing the warden's melee range(much like reavers have passively, and guardians have via a main-hand legacy) would help this problem.

Originally Posted by Orion

Probably never, and I'll tell you why. If you cannot handle the good and the bad equally well, then why are you posting in the first place. There are always going to be detractors and supporters, differentiating the legitimate feedback from the chaff is the key.

Keep in mind what you wrote on this very thread: you downplayed the roles of masteries when many wardens see it as the heart of the gambit system. It doesn't matter if they "aren't going away," the point is people want them to stay central.

Originally Posted by Ellery01

I do want agree that it seems like Orion really can't win with you guys. Orion is far and away the most responsive class Dev lotro has. He's willing to discuss his plans and ideas, concerns people have and generally makes an attempt to be as transparent as possible. Every other class pretty much wishes Orion was their dev (or maybe just hunters and RKs, but still :P).

You guys owe him an even bigger thanks for taking the ridiculous detractors in stride and not letting it stop him from trying to fulfill his role as the mediator and designer for the mechanics of your class.

As has been pointed out, LOTRO is a paid service, and I don't think you realize how many people that played a warden as their main have left or dropped to premium because their favorite class is broken and won't be fixed for months, on top of everything else gone sour with this game in the past year.

Originally Posted by Orion

Probably never, and I'll tell you why. If you cannot handle the good and the bad equally well, then why are you posting in the first place. There are always going to be detractors and supporters, differentiating the legitimate feedback from the chaff is the key.

Well said and I applaud you and your efforts.

+1 Cooky to you, sir.

Originally Posted by duamarth

It doesn't matter if they "aren't going away," the point is people want them to stay central.

Not everyone. Bring on the changes, I say!

Originally Posted by duamarth

It doesn't matter if they "aren't going away," the point is people want them to stay central.

I personally would like to see masteries take a less important role if a way can be devised to keep wardens effective without them.

Well, i´m with Glorno on this. Since the gambit system as a unique game mechanic will preserve, it´s all about efficiency Masteries or not...if our skills are no longer spammable in such a short time, one can actually power them up quite a lot.
To summ it up, it seems that most fears are more about the building on the fly side of things....
On a slighty other note, I hope there is a way to bring parity in yet another segment of the game. I feel that Orion should do something about our "class legendary slot" for we´re, together with hunters, the only classes that use technically a weapon there, which prevents us from using those up and comming legendary mitigation scrolls, as well as missing out on some awesome "free" stats tied to those.

Originally Posted by BRDiger

Well, i´m with Glorno on this. Since the gambit system as a unique game mechanic will preserve, it´s all about efficiency Masteries or not...if our skills are no longer spammable in such a short time, one can actually power them up quite a lot.
To summ it up, it seems that most fears are more about the building on the fly side of things....
On a slighty other note, I hope there is a way to bring parity in yet another segment of the game. I feel that Orion should do something about our "class legendary slot" for we´re, together with hunters, the only classes that use technically a weapon there, which prevents us from using those up and comming legendary mitigation scrolls, as well as missing out on some awesome "free" stats tied to those.

No Masteries mean, that we get in trouble so hold aggro the first 30 sec or so, or (again) we must ignore our defense in this time.
A single prepaired Gambit may help a bit, but have an really big problem: time. How much groups would you let take 5 sec to create an Gambit and then another 5 sec to throw your backstabbing Javelin (sorry don´t know the english name)?

And yes, i often wondered why we have a lously javelin as class item, having a real class item had fit more in the tanking role (using a common javelin with physical mig like guards/champs do with bows and be able to use the mig-scroll for class-items), and atleast instead of having the fix DPS-Stat of an weapon, the "class-item-stat" could be +icpr, in replacement for +icpr in Conservation, wich would help with power-issues in Recklessness or Determination. But this is one of that things, that also will never happend. So we have a legendary javelin for our (missing) range-DPS role, like the hunter. *shrug*

Exciting times! I really appreciate Orion's continual updates and can't wait to hear more.

Like other long term players I'm wary of the talk of changes around masteries but at the same time I get that a lot of that is because I'm so reliant on them at the moment. However, if I can generate the same amount of threat, defensive buffs and self heals with the same flexibility (out of melee range, at the same power cost, out of LoS) in the same time period all without masteries (or with fewer masteries) then I'll be content.

Oh, and one tiny thing; is there any chance crit strike could be immediate again? As it stands, if I slip a boot in to my rotation for interrupts and happen to get a stun I'd need to have the reactions of a teenage counter strike guru to hit crit strike. That or make crit strike usable in more situations such as whenever a mob is in any of the knocked down, stunned, mezzed, dazed, rooted states. As it stands I sometimes get to use it right after an ambush pull then it lies neglected.

The name of the game is speed. Speed when tanking so you can grab aggro, and speed in dps so you can get a couple gambits out on a creep before you can't hit it any more. Just merely buffing gambits won't make us more effective. Imagine if LMs got a 3 min mez. That's awesome but if the induction is 15 seconds long, I don't think many people would make that trade. No group is going to wait 15 seconds every pull for a warden to build aggro, and no creep is going to stay still for 20 seconds so the warden can get two gambits off.

That's not to say it can't be done. If Warcry came with a wider range and a 7 second force attack, then we don't need all the masteries. Even then wardens would be losing the ability to Conviction kite, unless Battle Memory can be loaded before battle and can be used repeatedly throughout combat.

I am willing to give Orion the benefit of the doubt again. Not because he has not disappointed, but because I have no choice. Here's to hoping for the best. Cheers Orion.

Warden was my first
I played from launch.
First to the Moors was I
On Eldar.

Long and hard I worked
To prove I am Tank.
Life was good till RoI
Now's dark.

There is some light
The crack of dawn.
I have some faith
In Orion.


When I read Orion's teaser here is what I was thinking / hoping:

1) Awesome! Here are some of my thoughts
2) Hmmm maybe a a clicky that will enable builders / gambits for 30s out of combat. So I could get Shield Mastery and Conviction active before I run in. Sweet! I just hope its not another memory slot. Not that I would mind another memory slot even one that worked out of combat but that isn't what we need to fix the first 15s of combat issue.
3) Errrmmm.... wait wut? You mean they're going back to being traits (5/1/1 builds again) or will they be set-bonuses so i'd have to trait 5/2 (which i do anyways) but will only have 4/6 masteries kinda thing? I guess I could live with that. But what I would like to see then is

All builders have no direct effect. They are made instant (or Very Fast) and do not require a Target / LoS. I guess that would be one way to remove the need for masteries but I would, personally, not like to see the individual builder effect be removed. Having only gambits do anything would just mean that we have clickable skills that require 3-6 button presses to activate. Clearly Fail.

So, maybe keep the individual effects of builders but still make them faster (with shorter animations) and extend melee range significantly. That should remove the need for the 'crutches' as we should be able maintain a decent Gambit throughput. IMHO they are crutches as the Gambit system is just waaaay too slow without them. Speed it up and they are not needed. Like a man limping is slow. Without crutches....

Finally, I realized, what i really want is just longer duration on my gambits. make them all 1m+ duration and I don't need to spam so many gambits so even though throughput is reduced I am still getting the same effect overall. Or, make Shield Mastery refresh all durations on top of its own buff. That means once my wall is up and my dancing shoes are on I only need to worry about SM every 20-30 seconds.

(Also TL;DR: )
Anyways, thinking through all those possibilities I realized that while there are some very important things to take into consideration there could be life without a complete dependence on my masteries. Which are now constantly on cool-down. But, all Gambits will have to be buffed (duration, efficacy, etc.) to compensate.

Originally Posted by Ubrot

No Masteries mean, that we get in trouble so hold aggro the first 30 sec or so, or (again) we must ignore our defense in this time.
A single prepaired Gambit may help a bit, but have an really big problem: time. How much groups would you let take 5 sec to create an Gambit and then another 5 sec to throw your backstabbing Javelin (sorry don´t know the english name)?

No it doesn't. This would happen if the only change Orion made for U6 was to remove the ability to use all 6 masteries. I think it's safe to assume he has other tricks up his sleeve. Not allowing us to use all the masteries all the time opens up a lot of possibilities that he simply can't do right now because it would be too powerful. The strength of length-5 Gambits is currently limited because we can get them off almost instantly. If he toned down our mastery usage he could open up the option to make those Gambits much stronger. Again, I use masteries just as much if not more than anyone. All we know right now is that Orion wants to make it so we don't use them as often. That is not inherently bad, it completely depends on what he does to make up for the lack of those masteries.

It would be like changing the car you drive from a Jeep to a Ferrari. It's not an accurate comparison to say "my Ferrari can't go off-road like my Jeep could so it must not be as good". There are plenty of things the new Ferrari can do better than the Jeep . Taking away the off-road capability doesn't mean it's an inferior car.

Originally Posted by greendragoon100

I personally would like to see masteries take a less important role if a way can be devised to keep wardens effective without them.

my thought for this would be to have a set of ranged builder skills so you could build your first gambit as you run in. it would also help in the moores quite abit.

Well i'm not going to give more "suggestions" to Orion since he will have read them from other threads.
I am confident wardens will be fixed in the future, if i see the work that have been done with mini's and Champs wich i class "Op" nowadays.
I mean i play on creepside in PVMP, as a warg my main targets are lowered armoured players besides LM/Burg
The easiest char to charge at uncloaked is a warden, the easiest to "pounce" is a hunter.
However i cannot help but notice how "empowered" or even "overpowered" champs are.

I mean champs are now taking a role what ussed to be a cappies role in PVMP, the front of the battlefield.
They charge in and when you get them to 3K health they will activate a bubble, that bubble is worth 3.5K health
In my expirience chasing champs it's almost imposible to kill them.
Basicly after a bubble goes down it doesn't take him long to activate another.
Iv'e seen champs able to get 3 bubbles in 2minutes and we are talking about a DPS heavy armoured class wich is also able to do AOE stuns.

Now you can say, What the heck have champs to do with wardens? well basicly if i see the revamps done on both champs and mini's and Orion say wardens will get a fix "in between a champ and a mini" then i am confident we will have a positive change, even tough NONE are happy about the "when"
Meanwhile we will have to try something else, i'm doing wargs and soon ill go with my alts.

MT

Prior to getting Masteries, I never looked at the Gambit panel or my toolbars since I could use sound and rhythm to know what my builders were doing, and I didn't have to concern myself with cooldowns. Besides allowing me to concentrate on what was happening with the mob(s), I also tended to be planning gambits about 2 beyond what I was currently building. With masteries, that all went to the wayside because if there was any lag, the mastery would not fire when I expected to. This has required me to focus on the gambit panel to try to make sure the first mastery lands before firing the second mastery in a 2-mastery buildup or else I end up with the wrong gambit builder. When I'm not making sure my masteries are actually firing, I'm watching the toolbar to pay attention to cooldowns. As for which gambits I use, that is primarily dictated by mastery cooldown -- and I only deviate from that if something is seriously wrong. I would LOVE to go back to the pre-mastery days when gambit choices were determined exclusively from the current situation with no thought given for cooldowns or misfired masteries -- that to me is what made the Warden class so much fun, and so different from other classes.

Aside from being useless, which I hope Orion can fix, I'd like for us to stop being so boring.

Is it just me, or does anyone else hate the PA bleed line attacks? It's the same three gambits in a row everytime, and on the (very) rare occasions you don't miss one of them and do some damage - that and WT are pretty much all we got. And I hate having to keep spamming the same thing constantly, it feels horribly mechanical. But so does much of our post-RoI play.

Maybe a minor kvetch, maybe not. It gets unfun - quickly.

Let me picture a world without masteries:

There's a reaver on the run, gladly for me, he is slowed. I press 1, 2, 3 , 4 and BAM! Power Attack, 500 damage and Minor Bleed.

Now I just need to press 11 more buttons and wait for their builder animations to throw the rest of the bleed rotation.

A champion view:

There's a reaver on the run, gladly for me, he is slowed. I press 1 button and BAM! 4k critting remorseless!

Now let me finish my rotation.. Oh noes! He's already dead!

P.S.: Yes champs DPS are supposed to overcome us by far, but this is silly. Having a Wardens Triumph with 4 buttons instead of 6 is the icing on the cake for melee damage, I myself use all 6 masteries on my rotation.
P.S².: The only option I see for us without masteries is the actual removal of builders, that means we wouldn't have masteries and still have QT SB and WT, but they would work like masteries with only one builder, that means ranged and no animation.

Viewing of the Palantir (not the server) reveals this:

Red (spear) line is now Assault (Reckless) (attack duration reduction, icpr, damage boost)
-sp-sh-fi is now a combination of 3 javelin skills
--spear is now a direct damage attack javelin
--shield is now a DoT attack javelin
--fist is now a PoT attack javelin
-gambits are now ranged to javelin distance, current javelin skills are removed
-careful step has 30 sec cd
-forced march now has a +25% power cost to skills, but does not cancel in combat
-damage boost
-DoT's change to fire or light damage type when oils are used

Blue (shield) line is now Determination (icpr icmr, b/p/e)
-critical strike is now critical defense: when target is dazed (from ambush or boar's rush) skill converts incoming damage to incoming heal for 5 secs (obviously bosses can't be spammed, stun/daze immunity)
-builders give a small heal, no global cool down
-conviction is an aoe heal, not a fellowship heal
-perseverance is now a fellow heal
-fear immunity (except epic story scene root/stun)
-no cd on shield tactics
-defiant challenge legendary is a 3m cd, gives 100% partial b/p/e instead of reflection in addition to force taunt, animation begins after skill effect starts...
-self heal boost
-fellow buffing from dance of war, dark before the dawn
-dark before dawn remove morale requirement
-damage boost

Yellow (fist) line is now Conservation (attack duration reduction, icpr, damage boost)
-damage for aoe gets a kick in the pants.
-boar's rush, brink of victory line now aoe
-wall of steel now reflects damage
-removes direct threat and tot from gambits, threat from damage and healing only
-dark before dawn remove morale requirement
-damage boost
-damage boost

Are there plans for making the stances define whether you are in dps, aoe, or tank mode (like war speech changes mini from heals to dps) vs. making the role based on the traits?

How far off am I Orion?

Originally Posted by Esegar

P.S.: Yes champs DPS are supposed to overcome us by far, but this is silly. Having a Wardens Triumph with 4 buttons instead of 6 is the icing on the cake for melee damage, I myself use all 6 masteries on my rotation.
P.S².: The only option I see for us without masteries is the actual removal of builders, that means we wouldn't have masteries and still have QT SB and WT, but they would work like masteries with only one builder, that means ranged and no animation.

I agree that our gambits even with masteries take way too long to build
The removal of builders would mean no gambit sistem, orion clearly stated gambits will be the base of every warden.
But what they "could" do is remove the damage done by gambit builders as well as their animations, they would be added to the builder as quick as you press them and then the gambit they built will be unleased.
It would mean no more waiting on the build, also maybe multiple builders for us to stack gambits in, more or less a "memory" but in-combat...

Originally Posted by Quazi-moto

-Blue (shield) line is now Determination (icpr icmr, b/p/e)
-Yellow (fist) line is now Conservation (attack duration reduction, icpr, damage boost)

Basicly both those stances are "defensive" or shield
Since determination gives a faster in-combat morale regen and conservation gives a bonus to your block/evade ration
What wardens would need for yellow (fist) is a stance like the guardians threat stance

MT

Originally Posted by MTminas

Basicly both those stances are "defensive" or shield
Since determination gives a faster in-combat morale regen and conservation gives a bonus to your block/evade ration
What wardens would need for yellow (fist) is a stance like the guardians threat stance

MT

It doesn't look like it to me. It looks like Red = ranged, yellow = melee/aoe & blue = tank.

Holy S, this stuff sounds more than kinda good. I wonder if this was allowed to be posted though...

Originally Posted by horus418

It doesn't look like it to me. It looks like Red = ranged, yellow = melee/aoe & blue = tank.

Holy S, this stuff sounds more than kinda good. I wonder if this was allowed to be posted though...

Quazi-Moto might've chosen his first sentence poorly (I'm not sure he's actually part of the Palantir program, as he finishes his post by asking Orion how close he is)...

If he is and that's where this came from... 0.0

Originally Posted by Fenaril

Quazi-Moto might've chosen his first sentence poorly (I'm not sure he's actually part of the Palantir program, as he finishes his post by asking Orion how close he is)...

If he is and that's where this came from... 0.0

In that case, boooo.... Some really good ideas though, even though I'm tired of reading everybody's ideas, no offense to anybody.

Another nail in the coffin, since tactical mitgation curve is also tied to armor type, i wonder if it was possible to change the shild tactics boost to a flat percentage, instead to the 1500 tac mit bonus it gives now... testing provided that a guard actually reaches 40% with about 5900 points, while i manage 41.9% max geared with 10188 points ( of course the 1500 shild tactics are still missing, but u see where i´m going here). That has to change before u5 goes live. As if common mitigation wasn´t bad enough already

Originally Posted by horus418

In that case, boooo.... Some really good ideas though, even though I'm tired of reading everybody's ideas, no offense to anybody.

I'm so with you there... the only person who I want to ideas from right now is Orion (unless he asks us for ideas)

I think that when Orion is finished that the Warden class will be in good standing. I am sure that he will make a class that has three very distinctive trait lines. I would like to see our builders being buffed with different effects when under each trait ine. For example, the tanking line could add to b/p/e + to physical mitigation or tactical mitigation (able to go over cap), or while in dps stance the builders would add % to damage and attack speed, or in ranged dps a cooldown to jav attacks.

I for one was never big on using my masteries extensivly. I never found that I needed to, especially with aggression added. I generally use one mastery per 5 or 4 gambit or when I am kiting just spamming conviction with masteries.

One more thing! I am tired of the non constructive and pointless feedback that the Warden community has been posting over the last several months. It is really embaracing reading some of these posts. The least you could do is provided feedback for Orion to consider instead of making pointless threats. Just chill out. And to those who have provided some solid feedback thank you!

The 3 roles idea sounds great.

Only thing I am worried about:

If we get 3 different roles, mainly if melee dps and ranged dps will be good, the role of warden as tank will diminish. Like, ok wardens are not as good tanks as guardians, but you have the option to join raids as melee/ranged dps.

As it is now with champions and captains. They have tank role, but they are not taken in raids for that one.

No matter how you twist and turn it, no matter what you do to the builders, taking away the ability to use all masteries at all times is taking away flexibility. I don't see why that should ever be a good thing.

Any warden that tells me they're not using all of them while doing whatever comes to mind just isn't using the full potential in my eyes.

And I'd have to balance that with look at what happens when a class doesn't have a viable second role. As far as I know, we're really the only one that doesn't. Well, arguably nobody's going to bring a hunter for anything other than DPS, either.

Look at which classes got hit hardest in RoI. Look at the one class that became utterly useless in RoI.

I rolled my warden to tank, too, but if she can't - I'd love to have the option of being able to do *something* in a group besides being dead weight. It'd also make soloing easier. Not that we weren't gods before RoI, which was a lot of fun, but I notice on my champ, and even on my mini, fercryinoutloud, that skirmishes take about half the time they do as when I'm on my warden - spear-traited.

Our primary role is *always* going to be tanking unless I have seriously misread what Orion wrote. But even guards can come along to a raid as a viable DPS class if they're not doing MT. We can't. It would be good to have the option.

Originally Posted by horus418

In that case, boooo.... Some really good ideas though, even though I'm tired of reading everybody's ideas, no offense to anybody.

Sorry, was using the palantir in context of it seeing the future, not the test server. Just my summary of all my wishes and wants.

PVP ranged DPS check
Tank check
AOE DPS check

That would put us where we should be while keeping the gambit system overall unchanged.
Personally, you take away the global cool down of builders and we don't need masteries.

Originally Posted by Orion

So, everyone commenting on masteries is reading way too much into the statement. They are not being removed. I have no intention of taking them away.

You don't have to remove them to completely mess them up.

My main concern is that we won't be able to have all the masteries and a capstone, effectively making it worse than it was before RoI which at least was possible but less than optimal.

Originally Posted by Orion

I think, for moment, that little teaser piece is the only thing that is controversial and so the only thing negative for you to all pounce on, it'll be okay.

I think it's a little early to be trumpeting your success isn't it? You gave us 3 vague changes. Yes, you keep coming back to masteries and let’s be honest, your comments about the matter has displayed your complete lack of understanding as to just how much the top wardens actually utilize all of them. Yes, that is the one piece of that short list that people are going to feel uneasy about.

You completely ignored us leading up to RoI, saying that the class was perfect as-is and didn't figure in the changes to the game mechanics. Within a couple weeks of the launch you acknowledged that you dropped the ball but here we are with no actual fix for Update 5. Now, from your sneak peek at Update 6 you still haven't revealed your plan to reduce our squishiness. We just want to be viable tanks again. It would be nice to be a range dps, it would be nice to do more melee dps, you can fix our masteries... but please FIX THE PROBLEM FIRST.

Let me enlighten you to just what this does to me personally and probably many other wardens out there. When Mines of Moria was release my kinship had an abundance of guardians. It wasn't long before my kin generally agreed that the warden was a capable tank but what do we do with all these guardians? Slowly our guardian numbers lowered as people left the kin and left the game. Finally after a couple years our numbers balanced to the point that wardens and guardians got relatively equal tanking opportunities.

Now, with wardens being a much greater liability in a raid my kin is aggressively recruiting guardians again. Even if the warden gets fixed in update 6, it will be another year or two before I get my tanking job back. Update 5 was my only hope to maintain my tanking position but you've already crushed that hope.

Forgive me if I’m critical of your purposes, you just don’t seem to understand the warden enough to be in charge of them.

Everybody freaking out just needs to calm down. Remember who we're dealing with here. Orion is the master of overhauls. His changes to minstrels were huge and game changing but ended up being awesome. Sure you had to relearn the class somewhat but in the end it still felt like the same class just how it should have been all along. Same thing with Champions. So maybe Orion is taking away the ability to have all the masteries at the same time. This scares some of us because we are so reliant on them. We need them as of now and can't imagine how to work without them, but Orion is the master of this sort of thing. I could never have seen the changes to champs or minis coming. Orion above any other dev gets the benefit of the doubt in my mind. If he says he has a plan that will change things around and it involves changes to masteries then I for one am looking forward to seeing how he plans on revamping the class so they don't need masteries as much. You see this is where the ragers need to calm down and think. Orion has an objective of making this class what it should be. I am sure his plan is rocking. If it involves changes to masteries then so be it. I am sure these changes are part of the plan to make Wardens awesome.

Orion understands theme and feeling better than any other dev from what I've seen. He made tanking on a champ feel like being a champ in a way that you can only really understand as a champ. He gave Champ's choice unlike we've ever had before and I am excited to see what he does with wardens.

You know what would make this a LOT less painful?

Dual-Spec.

Just Saying.

Originally Posted by be0wulfe

You know what would make this a LOT less painful?

Dual-Spec.

Just Saying.

You mean primary tank, primary dps? Something like RKs?