Thread: Your thoughtrs on minstredl play?

The past few days a discussion of minstrel work has been going on in the Lonely Mountain Band kinship forums. Here are a few of my thoughts from that forum.

A newer minstrel asking for advice brought on this comment.

Recently (like the past 4 weeks) I have leveled up my hobbit minstrel Nitnoy. At low levels there isn't much choice. You slot the traits you have earned and switch them as you level up and gain new abilities. For the solo work that dominates low level play I have slotted all red traits and I adventure in Warrior Skald mode all of the time. As soon as I can I like to begin using the Anthem of Composure for the defense buff, (and the power over time coda benefit) but for Nitnoy the damage dealing of Warrior Skald mode allows him to deal with pretty much everything. In the end a lot of it is about your individual play style. The minstrel has so many options, it's more a think on your feet class than a regular routine class once you begin working in fellowships. Try the different skills as you level up so you get a feel for them, then select the ones that you find most effective for your playstyle. Make your decisions about how you intend to play. Do you value doing damage? Buffing group abilities? Healing? The minstrel can be tweeked for any of these or even a mix. For group play I trait and equip to buff first, then heal (especially now that captains and rune keepers have improved healing ability). I will often run in a fellowship doing no damage outside of my initial three ballads to open my anthems. I buff and heal, everyone else does the damage.

More generally I offered these thoughts on the post RoI minstrel as a solo class.

My setup part one.

So far I slot 2 blue and 5 yellow class traits. All geared to buff and heal. Despite that I find plenty of damage output in warrior skald mode so I have never retriated to red. My traits are geared to speed and duration of skills (and admittedly healing) I imagine my plus number of skills cast offsets some of the plus damage I might trait for. Prior to a fight I set up a combination tale (five yellow trait class skill) depending on my need for armor or element resistance. In a fight (Warrior Skald)I try to begin with my three ballads, minor-perfect-minor, then Anthem of Composure for defense, followed by 5 attacks Piercing Cry, Cry of the Valar, Call of Orome, Call to Fate, Call of the Second Age. 3 of the 5 are aoe. Then with anthem cool down and duration buffs I can use Anthem of the Free Peoples followed by the Coda doing more damage and setting off heal over time and power over time buffs to me. Then just repeat with a self heal now and then as needed.

I have not attempted Warrior Skald mode in a fellowship event yet, so I cannot really comment on that.

Next up; how I rotate skills in fellowship max buff & heal mode... a much more complicated subject.

Solid advice, I think, though I think he gives short shift to red traits -- not that you CAN'T solo effectively without them, but they do have a significant damage benefit (not to mention the stun on Piercing Cry). My full rotation in War-Speech looks more like:

Minor-Perfect-Minor
Cry of the Wizards
Anthem of the Free Peoples
Call of the Second Age
Cry of the Valar
Piercing Cry
Call to Fate
Call of Orome
(Minor? Herald's Strike? Just fill in a sec until Anthems are reset)
Anthem of Composure
Coda

That's what you'd use against a normal orange-con mob, say. Signatures get Echoes of Battle included. Lower-con mobs get to skip some of that (single teal-cons, for instance are MPM, Orome, Piercing Cry, Call to Fate, Coda. Rinse and Repeat.) Sets up defenses and heals at the top, and gets your Composure AND Free Peoples for the coda.

Do recomment Wizards to be traited for solo work, though. A fourth AE is very nice. I see why he doesn't, though -- it has a base 1m cooldown.

Originally Posted by dori_bolger

So far I slot 2 blue and 5 yellow class traits. All geared to buff and heal. Despite that I find plenty of damage output in warrior skald mode so I have never retriated to red. My traits are geared to speed and duration of skills (and admittedly healing) I imagine my plus number of skills cast offsets some of the plus damage I might trait for. Prior to a fight I set up a combination tale (five yellow trait class skill) depending on my need for armor or element resistance. In a fight (Warrior Skald)I try to begin with my three ballads, minor-perfect-minor, then Anthem of Composure for defense, followed by 5 attacks Piercing Cry, Cry of the Valar, Call of Orome, Call to Fate, Call of the Second Age. 3 of the 5 are aoe. Then with anthem cool down and duration buffs I can use Anthem of the Free Peoples followed by the Coda doing more damage and setting off heal over time and power over time buffs to me. Then just repeat with a self heal now and then as needed.

I have not attempted Warrior Skald mode in a fellowship event yet, so I cannot really comment on that.

Next up; how I rotate skills in fellowship max buff & heal mode... a much more complicated subject.

Above, you mean War-speech, right, and not Warrior Skald? Warrior Skald is the red trait line.

As I was leveling from 65 to 75 almost completely in a duo I was traited 5 red with the capstone. DPS was extremely nice and monsters fell like flies. After turning 75 and spending a lot more time in groups, either 3, 6 or 12 man instances I have been experimenting with a couple different trait setups. Currently, if I am going to be the main healer I go 4 yellow and 3 blue. If I will be DPS/back up healer I go 4 yellow and 3 red. With both setups I can buff my group nicely and I try to keep at least 3 anthems up all the time - War, Prowess and Free Peoples, substituting War with Third Age if I am main healer and healing becomes tougher. When healing if I am concerned about pulling aggro I start off with Compassion but don't refresh it. I've also been trying both Melody and Harmony stances for healing. So far I prefer Melody (null) for 6/12 man fellowships and Harmony for 3 mans for the boss fights (for trash pulls, depending on group setup I often end up in War-speech).

4Y/3R here for duo/3man content primarily. I don't get to do six man content much. I absolutely adore the new mechanics and you're absolutely right - it's very much a "think on your feet" sort of class.

4Y lets me keep 5 anthems up fairly regularly and the 3 R means I'm not deadweight when there's no healing to be done. Healing can be kinda rough though if I'm main healing so I can definitely see traiting 3B instead as content gets more "real".



--- Durian

I've spent a long time thinking about 5y/2r (or 2b) vs. 4y/3r (or 3b) combinations. Here's what I came up with for pros and cons:

5y/2r:
+Allows super legendary tales
+Lower power consumption
+2 traits in red are very useful for dps.
-Fewer useful traits to slot after 3y
-Long CD on Cry of Valar and Cry of the Wizards
-Consumes a legendary trait slot

4y/3r:
+Lower power consumption
+Short CD on cry of Valar and Cry of Wizards
+Better ballad DPS
+3rd red trait is very useful
+3 free legendary trait slots
-Normal strength tales

It really comes down to the short CD on Cry of the Valar and Wizards vs. the double strength tale. The double strength tale is a wonderful passive that will make your fellows gasp with its potency. But you gimp your Valar and Wizards by only allowing them to be active 50% of the time. For Cry of the Valar, you are leaving about +1100 ICMR on the table because you can only keep the buff up 50% of the time. For Cry of the Wizards, you lose some of the +20% attack duration debuff on the enemy, as well as the runspeed debuff. You can keep that up only 25% of the time without the 3 red traits. With the 3 red, you can keep it up 50% of the time. That translates to roughly -10% less damage taken by your fellowship due to this debuff. Those double strength tales are really amazing. You can get 2k of resistance or armor, plus a hefty stat boost. But you also have to give up a legendary slot. What trait to lose? Fellowship's heart, Rally! or Cry of the Wizards? Or if you are weird like me, Symphony of the Hopeful Heart. So to me the final calculation is: double stength tale vs. PermaValar, Wizards Debuff + 1 legendary. I'll take the latter.

The other thing I found is that 5y/2r is slower to play. Since you have longer CDs on Cry of the Valar and Wizards, you end up watching those CDs tick down and end up wasting power on ballads as filler. But your ballads at this level are actually very inefficient for DPS or buffs. Once you have 3 up, there's no more reason to use them. In that case, you end up waiting for anthems to come off CD. I'm impatient. I want to nuke things with Cry of the Valar and Cry of the Wizards rather than wait for my next anthem to come off CD.

--Harperella

Originally Posted by Harperelle

The other thing I found is that 5y/2r is slower to play. Since you have longer CDs on Cry of the Valar and Wizards, you end up watching those CDs tick down and end up wasting power on ballads as filler. But your ballads at this level are actually very inefficient for DPS or buffs. Once you have 3 up, there's no more reason to use them. In that case, you end up waiting for anthems to come off CD. I'm impatient. I want to nuke things with Cry of the Valar and Cry of the Wizards rather than wait for my next anthem to come off CD.

--Harperella

Do you go 4y/3r or 5y/2r even when you are the primary healer in 6 or 12 man groups? I can see the shorter CDs on Cry of the Valar and Wizards being beneficial to the group, but is it more so than going 2 or 3 blue? I guess it does depend on the group you are in too though If healing is a breeze, extra DPS is certainly nice. I am still not a confident enough healer post-RoI (only hit 75 a couple weeks ago), and the groups I am in are often varied on equipment/skill level, so I prefer the extra oomph to healing from the blue line.

When I solo, it's 5 red, no question.

When I heal, it's 4 yellow.

I differ from most of the posts above in that I think Anthem of War is a top priority. Everybody should have a book that's maxed out for Anthem of War, even if you swap it in and out when using the skill. (In my case it's my main DPS book, and is swapped when healing. The 4 legacies maxed out on it are the three Anthem of War ones, plus Cry of the Chorus, the latter because I REALLY like having my buffs.)

I currently fill out the rest of my trait line with blue in both cases. I figure those traits will matter mainly when things go bad, and in such cases I want to maximize my healing output per second, via a combo of raw output, faster inductions, and reduced interruptibility.

In a boss fight you definitely want to use Timeless Echoes of Battle, either immediately or as soon as your buffs are up. When healing I sometimes run Harmony and put up Echoes of Battle. One can always drop Harmony for neutral stance if more healing output is needed.

The exact rotation of attack skills I use is affected in part by whether and when the enemies will group into AoE.

There are very few situations in which one shouldn't use Cry of the Valar about as fast as it becomes available (mainly, ones in which AoE is a bad idea).

My default anthem rotation when healing is:

1. War
2. Freeps
3. Prowess or Composure depending on the enemies

In theory I could keep 5 or even 6 anthems up at once. In practice even 4 is hard if I also need to actually heal. That said, in a long fight, the Harmony version of Third Age is cool by the numbers, and only needs to be used once. If I'm healing a lot, I might throw Compassion in there, just as might bubble before needing to.

I throw Chord of Salvation a lot. I might follow with SoS just because it's fast. When things get hairy I spam Bolster. Inspire Fellows is in the mix if enough fellows are hurting at once; those are also the situations where I might go straight to Triumphant Spirit. (Or even Fellowship's Heart.) Less dramatically, those are also the cases where Anthem of the Freeps might be prioritized even over Anthem of War.

I wonder what it'd be like to have two 5y minis keeping BOTH double tales on a fellowship...

Thanks for this thread.. it got me thinking about things, and has helped me improve as a minstrel..

I think we are seeing here what I like so much about minstrels. You don't see just one way to go about it, with minor variations. What I am seeing here is many different ways of going about being a minstrel. My advice for new minstrels would be, try all of your different skill options as you level up and see what works best for you in a given situation. Familiarity with your skills also lets you change your routine, based on the situatin you are facing. (you may notice that many of the posts done here so far admit to switching routines based on what challenge is currently being faced) The posts here should help point you in the right direction, but they are not gospel. Give them a try and don't be afraid to adjust them a bit to fit your style.

Originally Posted by LoyKashka

I wonder what it'd be like to have two 5y minis keeping BOTH double tales on a fellowship...

I was actually in a six-man last night with another minstrel. I ran 5Y2B and did Tale of Heroism and Warding and the other mini went 4B3Y and ran Tale of Battle. I think quad-tale is overkill since fire and frost resists aren't too significant a source of damage typically. Our group was very heal-heavy but it worked just fine for us. I kept up Anthems of War/FreePeople/Prowess and occasional Third Age and the other mini focused more on strictly healing.

I just healed Dragioch for the first time, and was advised to go 4 blue/3 yellow. I kind of like that build.

It's tough to reliably keep much up beyond your #1 priority anthem (plus Anthem of Compassion, but in Dragioch healing the main group I don't care about that). But raw healing output per second is nice and big.

I have healed at Draigoch raid only twice until now (in a successful run, of course). Both were in 5y/2b. At the first attempt I was a dps group healer, at the second time a main tank healer. Both fights weren’t too challenging in such trait line. Main tank healing was just a piece of cake, combined in fact with some boredom. I was mostly rotation of: 3x ballad, Bloster, anthem, SoS, anthem, bolster, anthem. Sometimes Chord of Salvation after a stronger crit. You need in fact just three anthems at phase 1 and 2.
Dps group healing was a little bit challenging during phase 3, but it was due to the fact that it was the first time my kin reached that point and people happened to have some problems with positioning. But during the whole raid, a 5y trait build is in my opinion very efficient. You can use a strong Tale with +2000 armour, 1 hope, 85 will and fate and can have 5 anthems up all the time. And it is very useful for that group to have anthem of war and prowess for faster dpsing and the rest of anthems for keeping them alive.

As you'll see in my sig my main is a RK. I'm currently leveling my mini though and played a lot this weekend (still learning the class).

He is currently lvl 46 and I was questing in Misty Mountains and suddenly had an opportunity to run Goblin Town with some folks. I'm running all red traits and didn't have time to switch. I was healing a 6 man. I just dropped War Speech and brought up Harmony (which I really hadn't used until now) and had a blast. I was able to DPS away, hit the anthem for morale regen (sorry, still not sure of the skill names) and then hit the modified coda which gives morale too. Had no issues at all keeping the whole group at full morale while also adding to the DPS pool. Actually, I was getting a good percentage of the kills even though three of the others in the group were hunters. ;-)

Now what I wasn't sure about was what I would have done on a boss type fight. Does Harmony allow for full healing output or would I have had to drop out of it? Could I have just kept doing what I was doing with the DPS addition while doing the occasional direct heal for someone who needed it? Interesting the options are. ;-)

Anyway, I continue to learn the class. It is certainly different than healing on the RK that's for sure.

You have no healing penalty in Harmony, the only real kick is that in Harmony as opposed to Melody (null stance) Major Ballad does damage instead of healing, and Coda does a mix of AE heal and AE damage instead of pure healing.

I finally got big enough last week (66 or 67) to run an instance with some kinmates (75 champ and hunter -- did Skumfil to finish my trait quest). I started off in Harmony and it was working fine except it did pull a little too much aggro with the AE damage to be worthwhile, so I backed off to Melody after that. In more normal circumstances, I would have stuck with it.

It's really just a choice between dedicated max-heal output and replacing some of that with a little extra DPS.

An easy Rule-of-Thumb is Harmony for AoE healing and/or hybrid DPS/Healing activities and Melody for single-target healing. The difference between a sizeable, single-target heal (Melody Coda) and the smaller, AoE damage/heal (Harmony Coda) is significant in terms of survivability.

Additionally, for dedicated healing, Anthem of the Third Age (Melody) is significantly more useful when the damage is pouring in (reduces induction times) - as a 4y traited minnie, I rarely if ever even use AotTA(Harmony).



--- Durian