Thread: Squishy: SOA=Warden, MoM=Hunter, Mirkwood=LM, ISEN=RK

Whats up with the steady decline in survivability expansion after expansion.

It has been a slow and steady process, but it has gone to far with isenguard. I feel like a melee RK now, with a couple panic button and a not so fun weak self heal mechanic.

Why why why?


For those of you who are newer, back when the game was released the burg was a mix of tank, champ single target DPS and stealth. Seems like the tank toughness aspect of the class is gone for good and the stealth is on the way out. Guess we delet and roll champs now?

Originally Posted by ifreborn1

Whats up with the steady decline in survivability expansion after expansion.

It has been a slow and steady process, but it has gone to far with isenguard. I feel like a melee RK now, with a couple panic button and a not so fun weak self heal mechanic.

Why why why?


For those of you who are newer, back when the game was released the burg was a mix of tank, champ single target DPS and stealth. Seems like the tank aspect of the class is gone for good and the stealth is on the way out. Guess we play champs now?

My first character was a burglar and I'm not sure I remember us being a dps class back at the start. As a matter of fact, that was one of the issues some of the new players had. They came here expecting the stealth class to be a rogue and burglars were more of a cc/debuff playstyle with conjunctions being almost exclusively theirs. I did have some fun with evade tanking, though.

(also, there were no wardens in SoA )

burgler tank? then why not make hunter tank too....they use medium armor and are definitelly not intended to be tanks in any way, you complain because ur burg isnt a guardian/burgler? lol....

Originally Posted by Thornglen

(also, there were no wardens in SoA )

That's cruel, injecting a fact into a fact-free rant.

Originally Posted by Kerin_Eldar

That's cruel, injecting a fact into a fact-free rant.

yes, it was just an example of the survivability the class had at one time. Lot of people use examples of unrelated things to explain new concepts. its part of the human experience. I'm sorry if that is a new for you.

Originally Posted by Thornglen

My first character was a burglar and I'm not sure I remember us being a dps class back at the start. As a matter of fact, that was one of the issues some of the new players had. They came here expecting the stealth class to be a rogue and burglars were more of a cc/debuff playstyle with conjunctions being almost exclusively theirs. I did have some fun with evade tanking, though.

(also, there were no wardens in SoA )

when the game released there was no MM mode there was no confound or root or glee or provoke mez. There was a 30 second riddle on a 1 min cool down.


There are some facts for your pipes.


You can try and rewrite history, but people like me will not stand for it. You may call us mad black ball us but we are still here and facts are on our side you just have the cool guns and nurf bats

Originally Posted by ifreborn1

yes, it was just an example of the survivability the class had at one time. Lot of people use examples of unrelated things to explain new concepts. its part of the human experience. I'm sorry if that is a new for you.

How is: SOA=Warden ( which the post you quoted was indirectly commenting on) using an example of unrelated things to explain new concepts?


Calling survivability tanking is quite a long stretch IMHO.
I don't think Burglars were designed to tank ( medium armour, no true threat management skills ( provoke doesn't really count, cause it just increases the threat on the mobs current target, so useless when you lose a mob) and positional bonusses all back this up) so if we ever were able to tank ( using traditional MMO tank here, so taking hits from bunch of mobs and keeping them) it is only right they took that away.


My hunter had survivability issues, because I was stacking Agility over everything. Now I started adding Vitality and I can take much much more.

Why does anyone still take ifreborn1 seriously?

Originally Posted by Soulshots

burgler tank? then why not make hunter tank too....they use medium armor and are definitelly not intended to be tanks in any way, you complain because ur burg isnt a guardian/burgler? lol....

Have you ever run a raid or group content in LOTRO? Hunters tank all the time more so in MoM then now but they still tank end game content and raid bosses.

Originally Posted by Jarnos

How is: SOA=Warden ( which the post you quoted was indirectly commenting on) using an example of unrelated things to explain new concepts?


Calling survivability tanking is quite a long stretch IMHO.
I don't think Burglars were designed to tank ( medium armour, no true threat management skills ( provoke doesn't really count, cause it just increases the threat on the mobs current target, so useless when you lose a mob) and positional bonusses all back this up) so if we ever were able to tank ( using traditional MMO tank here, so taking hits from bunch of mobs and keeping them) it is only right they took that away.


My hunter had survivability issues, because I was stacking Agility over everything. Now I started adding Vitality and I can take much much more.

your hunter is not a melee only class.

I never ment burgs could tank and hold a target. I ment they shared the toughness aspects of a tank. High evade, panic buttons decent mittigations. when from behind we accted like a DPS class and when we lost that pos damage bonus we had low dps and high mittgation ability.


Maybe a partial answer to this would be removing the out of combat gate for the QK & gambler stances and fixing finesse.

Originally Posted by MoonwalkIntoMordor

Why does anyone still take ifreborn1 seriously?

you mad bro?

Originally Posted by ifreborn1

Whats up with the steady decline in survivability expansion after expansion.

It has been a slow and steady process, but it has gone to far with isenguard. I feel like a melee RK now, with a couple panic button and a not so fun weak self heal mechanic.

Why why why?


For those of you who are newer, back when the game was released the burg was a mix of tank, champ single target DPS and stealth. Seems like the tank toughness aspect of the class is gone for good and the stealth is on the way out. Guess we delet and roll champs now?

Burgs were never as sturdy as wardens for a couple reasons: the self heals they have far outpace ours, their bpe is significantly higher with buffs, and they have the b part of bpe. We could outsurvive them for 30s out of every 5 minutes or 1 out of every 5 min if we get stunned but that's about it.

In MoM burgs were much sturdier than hunters. With DR implemented the way it was in MoM a burg could keep creeps as well as npcs fully CCd for the duration of a kill.

In mirkwood, as in the whole game so far, burgs were siginificantly less squishy than LMs barring the use of WoC once every 15 min. This one is really confusing because LMs are second in squishiness only to your last example.

RKs, when dps attuned, are the squishiest class in the game right now... I don't even bother trying to heal them outside of group in the moors when I'm on my cappy because there is no way I'm going to be able to save them they go down so fast.

As for getting squishier in general, yes, we did. But so did everyone who doesn't wear heavy armour and stack vit.

Burg is actually in a great place right now imo. If you gear for it you can have a great combination of survivability and damage. Then we still have all of our oh sh!t buttons too.

In SoA Wardens (and RK's) were unkillable. However, their DPS and utility was so close to zero that they didn't even warrant a spot in a fellowship. I was never even in a group during SoA where the leader took a warden. Oh, and a hunter in endurance with a butter knife from the mathom house could out aggro a warden.

Originally Posted by shazbaat

In SoA Wardens (and RK's) were unkillable. However, their DPS and utility was so close to zero that they didn't even warrant a spot in a fellowship. I was never even in a group during SoA where the leader took a warden. Oh, and a hunter in endurance with a butter knife from the mathom house could out aggro a warden.

For reals, +rep

Originally Posted by ifreborn1

you mad bro?

If you are going to spew memes, at least use them correctly.

Originally Posted by MoonwalkIntoMordor

Why does anyone still take ifreborn1 seriously?

Took me about 3 threads to figure it out. I'm personally embarrassed it took me 3 and not 1.

Maybe he's just trying to get his thread start and post count over 9000?

Originally Posted by Kerin_Eldar

That's cruel, injecting a fact into a fact-free rant.

Epic :P I'll have to borrow that line sometime

Originally Posted by shazbaat

In SoA Wardens (and RK's) were unkillable.

rofl wards and rks were added with MoM weren't they? didn't even exist in SoA....so yea unkillable because they weren't there. never taken because they weren't there.

Originally Posted by ifreborn1

Seems like the tank toughness aspect of the class is gone for good and the stealth is on the way out. Guess we delet and roll champs now?

Stealth is here, you just need to equip it. I know, everyone wants to stack crit/dps right now as it's the flavor of the month....but, you don't need it to kill creeps. It may take a bit longer, but they go down. I wear older pieces for my necklace, cloak and pocket, becuase they have stealth and movement speed. It comes down to choice.

ifreborn1. I am europen player, so not used to listen your flames so long as americans player, but I already bored. Pls, go away, and allow us to read, write, share some intresting things instead of that junks topics.

Originally Posted by shazbaat

In SoA Wardens (and RK's) were unkillable. However, their DPS and utility was so close to zero that they didn't even warrant a spot in a fellowship. I was never even in a group during SoA where the leader took a warden. Oh, and a hunter in endurance with a butter knife from the mathom house could out aggro a warden.

I never even made it to level 1 with my Warden in SoA, it wasn't until MoM they became soloer's dream class.

I am loving my RoI Burglar, at first there was a little trouble, but once I swapped out my might gear for more agility, things worked much better. I have a gambler build, so I travel in steath most of the time in solo, with level 70's auto-crit from stealth, the improved Riddle from that does not break stealth, I can travel through almost anywhere and pick my fights.

[QUOTE=ifreborn1;5848808]Have you ever run a raid or group content in LOTRO? Hunters tank all the time more so in MoM then now but they still tank end game content and raid bosses.

Im sorry, but did you just say hunters tank end-game content? I can think of 1 single instance hunters tanked in MoM, that would be range tanking tentacles in Vile Maw. Plus, you think we do any tanking now in 6 mans or raids? Thats just a horrible comment. We can tank a 3 man with a dedicated healer. We can not with any use tank 6 mans or raids. I don't see any proof you've ever played a hunter either.

For the record, I was looking in this forum because im leveling a burglar alt. But I can't stand people making completely incorrect statements about my favorite class.

[QUOTE=josh13333;5852851]

Originally Posted by ifreborn1

Have you ever run a raid or group content in LOTRO? Hunters tank all the time more so in MoM then now but they still tank end game content and raid bosses.

Im sorry, but did you just say hunters tank end-game content? I can think of 1 single instance hunters tanked in MoM, that would be range tanking tentacles in Vile Maw. Plus, you think we do any tanking now in 6 mans or raids? Thats just a horrible comment. We can tank a 3 man with a dedicated healer. We can not with any use tank 6 mans or raids. I don't see any proof you've ever played a hunter either.

For the record, I was looking in this forum because im leveling a burglar alt. But I can't stand people making completely incorrect statements about my favorite class.

the middle boss in Sâri-surma also the ads on the last boss

and

The tree's in OD

Prior to that the twins in BG The troll boss and Zholuga in DN.

We will see what update 5 brings. I am guessing we will see atleast 1 fight that calls for a range tank.



-Peace love and facts

I do not understand your complaint. i am an endgame burg, and still have great survivability. and i can still Evade tank, conj heal, or CC at need, but now i am good DPS too.

i am a pretty new lotro player but i've played (and then sometimes deleted) every class into the late 20's so i know a little about the classes in general. i have 41 burg so i was reading through here and this thread made me laugh, specifically comments about SoA wardens and rk's, all you who made funny, intellectual comments got some rep and ya my level 47 rk is annoyingly squishy i cant tank anything like i could pre MoM hopefully update 5 will allow me to range tank once again

Originally Posted by ronaldburgundy

i am a pretty new lotro player but i've played (and then sometimes deleted) every class into the late 20's so i know a little about the classes in general. i have 41 burg so i was reading through here and this thread made me laugh, specifically comments about SoA wardens and rk's, all you who made funny, intellectual comments got some rep and ya my level 47 rk is annoyingly squishy i cant tank anything like i could pre MoM hopefully update 5 will allow me to range tank once again

I have a rk too done some crazy things with it, like soloing a 100k boss mob when the rest of my fellow wiped.

RK is squishy, you are right but, try binding Ceaseless Argument, Scribe's Spark and Shocking Words on your mouse. Do not click skills on youe skill bar and move wile you fight.

They can't kill what they can't touch.


The burg on the other hand is a melee class and can not kite like a hunter, LM or RK. He needs to stay in the thick of it and fight for the most part. Hunter pulls agro the mob has to run 40M to get to him, the burg pulls agro and all the mob has to do is turn around and 1 or 2 shot you (wasnt so harsh in the past). Not a lot of room for error not to mention the AOE damage and added stress we will add to the mini. I Like to have the feeling I did somthing wrong when I die in a group. But I hope the changes + update 5 dont make me feel like I have a self death gamble.

You guys just might get that coveted place next to the mini an LM, I have talked and warned about for 2 years now.

it was a slightly sarcastic posts as no runekeepers could tank pre MoM cuz they didn't exist and i could never consider myself a ranged tank as light armour is incredibly squishy and i wouldnt be able to hold multiple mobs for very long as my AoE dps skills have inductions. assuming i could somehow get threat and then hit touch and go i could see my burg tanking in 3 mans but without aggro generation skills it would be nearly impossible, also the only hunter tanks ive ever seen were the level 24's in the gb's who liked to pull on their own with rain of arrows and a few penetrating shots only to be killed almost instantly by a horde of mobs who were supposed to be attacking the aggro-fail warden..

Originally Posted by ronaldburgundy

it was a slightly sarcastic posts as no runekeepers could tank pre MoM cuz they didn't exist and i could never consider myself a ranged tank as light armour is incredibly squishy and i wouldnt be able to hold multiple mobs for very long as my AoE dps skills have inductions. assuming i could somehow get threat and then hit touch and go i could see my burg tanking in 3 mans but without aggro generation skills it would be nearly impossible, also the only hunter tanks ive ever seen were the level 24's in the gb's who liked to pull on their own with rain of arrows and a few penetrating shots only to be killed almost instantly by a horde of mobs who were supposed to be attacking the aggro-fail warden..

You can hold agro in 3 man boss fights. The staying alive part is the catch now. I use to be able to main tank and main heal 3 mans at the same time (except SH). Not any more.

Burgs get hit a lot harder now. I think too much for a melee class. I think we need higher mitigations than hunters going forward.

I know that at 41 chillin in Angmar with mostly level 43 and 44 mobs, my burg rarely gets hit to hard.
in a 1v1 against a mob often times they will end the fight stunned or wake up only to meet my final knife right in the back. regardless i think with the amount of debuffs, cc, and stealth abilities we have now I think our armour in relation to hunters is fine. When a hunter gets hit, its going to hurt a lot more than when I get hit.

Originally Posted by ifreborn1

The burg on the other hand is a melee class and can not kite like a hunter, LM or RK. He needs to stay in the thick of it and fight for the most part. Hunter pulls agro the mob has to run 40M to get to him, the burg pulls agro and all the mob has to do is turn around and 1 or 2 shot you (wasnt so harsh in the past).

A mob covers 40m in a couple of seconds, maybe 5 seconds if severely snared. Then there are traps, but unless you trait specifically for both trapping and kiting, you're not going to be doing much of either. At least not in combat while you have aggro. Burglars have a #### ton of ways to deal with aggro, bad pulls, bad openings etc. HiPS, Small/Quite a Snag, stuns, riddle...

Originally Posted by ronaldburgundy

I know that at 41 chillin in Angmar with mostly level 43 and 44 mobs, my burg rarely gets hit to hard.
in a 1v1 against a mob often times they will end the fight stunned or wake up only to meet my final knife right in the back. regardless i think with the amount of debuffs, cc, and stealth abilities we have now I think our armour in relation to hunters is fine. When a hunter gets hit, its going to hurt a lot more than when I get hit.

Originally Posted by MannyCalavera

A mob covers 40m in a couple of seconds, maybe 5 seconds if severely snared. Then there are traps, but unless you trait specifically for both trapping and kiting, you're not going to be doing much of either. At least not in combat while you have aggro. Burglars have a #### ton of ways to deal with aggro, bad pulls, bad openings etc. HiPS, Small/Quite a Snag, stuns, riddle...

My comments and gripes are about group play for the most part. Solo play in this game anyone can do on any class. If they balance solo play in this game it would be a huge waste of time considering the difficulty level of solo play for the most part. We need higher mitigations for group play and not to give us them because it would make average solo play irrelevant is an irrelevant argument considering the standards they lay out for solo play. I have learned to play solo for the story line and raiding and some grouping for the challenge.

PS i found leveling easyer on my LM and RK. Well LM had some troubles in the low 30's Looking back I think that was between the seat and the screen.

O I say we need higher mittigations than a hunter because we do not do hunter like damage wile we have agro and I hope they keep the possitional aspect of our damage intact. I would even give up a little frontal damage for higher mitigations and a slight boost to pos damage.

Originally Posted by ifreborn1

O I say we need higher mittigations than a hunter because we do not do hunter like damage wile we have agro and I hope they keep the possitional aspect of our damage intact. I would even give up a little frontal damage for higher mitigations and a slight boost to pos damage.

Uhm not sure about that. Hunters do low dmg once their traited needful haste runs out or is on CD. Plus we have some tools to make sure to stay in position although we have aggro(not on bosses, correct), while huntards only got some cc to get some distance between them and the enemy... getting into distance means zero dps. Burglar wins in terms of dps while tanking.

Regarding mitigation:

Hunters can't do anything against stuns/knockdowns what ever... Burglars have find footing. Burg +1
Hunters can't do anything against physical damage... Burglars have touch and go AND knives out both on low CD. Burg + 2
Hunters have desperate flight, Burglars have vanish. Vanish is like 1000x times better than df and has lower CD. Burg +1
Hunters have a nice self heal but its situational, burgs have 2 selfheals, one anytime(45s cd) and one situational, both stronger in power .... burg wins

Burglar wins again in terms of mitigating damage.
I would never ever switch to hunter, burglars have higher dps, higher survivability and are much more fun to play

Originally Posted by gorma_eu

Hunters can't do anything against physical damage... Burglars have touch and go AND knives out both on low CD. Burg + 2

pluss burgs have tricks to: reduce opponents damage and increase opponents attack duration thus lowering dps put out by mobs +2 and cause opponents to miss more often thus lowering the damage they take +1

sure they cannot have all 3 of these options up at once but touch and go, knives out, plus 1 of those ^^ tricks = taking a hell of a lot less damage than hunters

I find that after Isen update we can handle alot less.
Mirk 2xR7-R8 np, now a rank5 alone can give me a hard time.

Sure we do alot more dmg but so does the creeps and I'm not as tough as I used to be.

Originally Posted by gorma_eu

Uhm not sure about that. Hunters do low dmg once their traited needful haste runs out or is on CD. Plus we have some tools to make sure to stay in position although we have aggro(not on bosses, correct), while huntards only got some cc to get some distance between them and the enemy... getting into distance means zero dps. Burglar wins in terms of dps while tanking.

Regarding mitigation:

Hunters can't do anything against stuns/knockdowns what ever... Burglars have find footing. Burg +1
Hunters can't do anything against physical damage... Burglars have touch and go AND knives out both on low CD. Burg + 2
Hunters have desperate flight, Burglars have vanish. Vanish is like 1000x times better than df and has lower CD. Burg +1
Hunters have a nice self heal but its situational, burgs have 2 selfheals, one anytime(45s cd) and one situational, both stronger in power .... burg wins

Burglar wins again in terms of mitigating damage.
I would never ever switch to hunter, burglars have higher dps, higher survivability and are much more fun to play

hunters should not be taking AOE damage in boss fight. Burgs will. we are a melee class.

maybe we are at the point where multiple tricks on a target would not break balance. sure i would like to see more mitigation but would take trick stacking, although trick stacking would effect the whole group not just the burg and so we are still in an odd spot.

Originally Posted by ifreborn1

hunters should not be taking AOE damage in boss fight. Burgs will. we are a melee class.

maybe we are at the point where multiple tricks on a target would not break balance. sure i would like to see more mitigation but would take trick stacking, although trick stacking would effect the whole group not just the burg and so we are still in an odd spot.

No offense, but cant say if trolling or just stupid. All that i mentioned above is way more than enough to handle melee aoe.

I find that after Isen update we can handle alot less.

Ever thought about that your melee offense, if u cared about, was at ~26% pre isen, and is about 80-90% now, if u care.
Try to push defensive stats instead of offensive stats to the point were you have 26% melee offense again. You'll surely have about 10k+ morale and nice defensive stats which are much stronger compared to what was possible pre isen. You can handle alot less because you chosed to. You are free to make a defensive build in which u deal relatively the same damage as pre isen.

Originally Posted by gorma_eu

No offense, but cant say if trolling or just stupid. All that i mentioned above is way more than enough to handle melee aoe.


Ever thought about that your melee offense, if u cared about, was at ~26% pre isen, and is about 80-90% now, if u care.
Try to push defensive stats instead of offensive stats to the point were you have 26% melee offense again. You'll surely have about 10k+ morale and nice defensive stats which are much stronger compared to what was possible pre isen. You can handle alot less because you chosed to. You are free to make a defensive build in which u deal relatively the same damage as pre isen.

How does touch and go and knives out handle random aoe through the course of a 20 min boss fight. also please list the items that provide me tac and physical d that would allow me to build in the way you suggest. As it is now i can pump my evade up to 2% higher (22%) than i did pre isen wile at the same time my evade is cut to under 10% with monster and creep finesse.

Sorry to call you out but it had to be done.

We will see what happens after the loving feeling of the dragon fight wears off.

Originally Posted by ifreborn1

How does touch and go and knives out handle random aoe through the course of a 20 min boss fight. also please list the items that provide me tac and physical d that would allow me to build in the way you suggest. As it is now i can pump my evade up to 2% higher (22%) than i did pre isen wile at the same time my evade is cut to under 10% with monster and creep finesse.

Sorry to call you out but it had to be done.

We will see what happens after the loving feeling of the dragon fight wears off.

Why should i care about random aoes in a 20 min boss fight ? Most of them are 180° frontal, and nearly all of them doing dmg for the lulz. Those which are dangerous are those insta kill aoes but those are 100% avoidable and those would kill any other class anyways.... feel sorry for you if u regularly die in random aoes, i simply don't.

i'll not do your homework for a defensive build just have a look at li scrolls, pocket items, relics and traits. simply not intrested for building up something like this for myself. cheers.

Originally Posted by gorma_eu

Why should i care about random aoes in a 20 min boss fight ? Most of them are 180° frontal, and nearly all of them doing dmg for the lulz. Those which are dangerous are those insta kill aoes but those are 100% avoidable and those would kill any other class anyways.... feel sorry for you if u regularly die in random aoes, i simply don't.

i'll not do your homework for a defensive build just have a look at li scrolls, pocket items, relics and traits. simply not intrested for building up something like this for myself. cheers.

After you post that maybe find a way to get me over 32% evade and about 20% parry. You know back to where i was before when you take into account finesse.

Originally Posted by ifreborn1

After you post that maybe find a way to get me over 32% evade and about 20% parry. You know back to where i was before when you take into account finesse.

Cool story bro. kthxbye

Originally Posted by gorma_eu

cant say if trolling or just stupid.

I'd say both, "SOA = Warden" kinda gave it away for me before I even started reading the thread. Neither funny, nor intuitive. 0/10, complete failure. Lock it up!

Originally Posted by Dimes

I'd say both, "SOA = Warden" kinda gave it away for me before I even started reading the thread. Neither funny, nor intuitive. 0/10, complete failure. Lock it up!

let the new content sink in for a week or 2. The Dragon raid was a farce the real group content is here!

The reality is burgs need a lot higher mittigation, slightly les frontal damage and higher pos damage.